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redqueen

(115,186 posts)
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:36 AM Oct 2023

"As Students Face Retaliation for Israel Statement, a 'Doxxing Truck' Displaying Students' Faces .."

I missed this story before, sharing in case anyone else did.

As Students Face Retaliation for Israel Statement, a ‘Doxxing Truck’ Displaying Students’ Faces Comes to Harvard’s Campus

Updated: October 13, 2023, at 4:01 a.m.

A billboard truck drove through the streets surrounding Harvard’s campus Wednesday and Thursday, digitally displaying the names and faces of students allegedly affiliated with student groups that signed onto a controversial statement on Hamas’ attack on Israel.

Amid continued national backlash and doxxing attacks, at least nine of the original 34 co-signing Harvard student groups as of Thursday evening withdrew their signatures from the statement — originally penned by the Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee — that called Israel “entirely responsible” for the violence. In a later statement, the PSC wrote that it “staunchly opposes” violence against all civilians.

By Tuesday evening, at least four online sites had listed the personal information of students linked to clubs that had signed onto the statement, including full names, class years, past employment, social media profiles, photos, and hometowns.

(Snip)

“It is quite literally physical threat, a heinous intimidation technique, a warning sign meant to scare ideological allies into repudiating our mission — and for the Jewish members of associations linked to our own, an unjustifiable and insulting slap in the face,” it continues. “The doxxing truck is the ugliest culmination of a campaign to silence pro-Palestinian activism that the PSC has experienced for years.”

(Snip)

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/10/12/doxxing-truck-students-israel-statement/
93 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"As Students Face Retaliation for Israel Statement, a 'Doxxing Truck' Displaying Students' Faces .." (Original Post) redqueen Oct 2023 OP
"Accuracy in Media, a conservative media advocacy group." 617Blue Oct 2023 #1
There are TikTok and Twitter accounts devoted to EllieBC Oct 2023 #2
it's as wrong as doxxing Democrats bigtree Oct 2023 #6
Who said it was only wrong now? redqueen Oct 2023 #7
Any opinions? If someone has an opinion that all Muslims are terrorists or that black kelly1mm Oct 2023 #78
I Have Very Little Sympathy, Ma'am The Magistrate Oct 2023 #3
we're not in Israel bigtree Oct 2023 #4
Oh but it is inthewind21 Oct 2023 #10
It only works that way in your head krawhitham Oct 2023 #74
If The Information Bruited About Is Public, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2023 #12
that's their right, in America. bigtree Oct 2023 #36
I Disagree, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2023 #46
this is about university policy, more than about someone's politics bigtree Oct 2023 #48
wait a sec. this was a PUBLIC statement stopdiggin Oct 2023 #53
all I see are people jumping on students bigtree Oct 2023 #60
I agree. But then we would have to also agree stopdiggin Oct 2023 #63
In several instances, the groups' names were affixed without going through the proper channels. Ms. Toad Oct 2023 #71
then we of course will be seeing mass stopdiggin Oct 2023 #72
Resignations and disavowals are happening. Ms. Toad Oct 2023 #84
point. too true. -(nt)- stopdiggin Oct 2023 #87
Why should they be allowed to engage in those persuits without fear of doxxing? Racist, kelly1mm Oct 2023 #80
n/t musicblind Oct 2023 #85
Free speech is not consequence free speech. While THE GOVERNMENT cannot kelly1mm Oct 2023 #79
Regarding free speech and consequences... musicblind Oct 2023 #86
Should racist, bigoted, homophobic speech have consequences? Should employers kelly1mm Oct 2023 #91
Not everyone being doxxed did. Ms. Toad Oct 2023 #70
100% -(nt)- stopdiggin Oct 2023 #73
They're doxxing people who had nothing to do with it. redqueen Oct 2023 #14
Had Nothing To Do With What, Ma'am? The Magistrate Oct 2023 #16
From the link: redqueen Oct 2023 #19
There Are Always Errors, Ma'am The Magistrate Oct 2023 #22
It wasn't people, it was the groups, signing for the members, who may or may not agree. cayugafalls Oct 2023 #26
Fine The Magistrate Oct 2023 #29
If they resign and still get doxxed, are you ok with that? cayugafalls Oct 2023 #25
That's the thing about these internet vigilantes redqueen Oct 2023 #27
It is not a world for pacifist, anymore. cayugafalls Oct 2023 #30
Just remember there are lots of us out here redqueen Oct 2023 #32
well said, redqueen bigtree Oct 2023 #38
There is no way, we can allow the middle east conflict divide Bluethroughu Oct 2023 #5
Too late inthewind21 Oct 2023 #20
President Biden is already moving policy there in a humanitarian way. Bluethroughu Oct 2023 #23
+1 redqueen Oct 2023 #33
K'n'R justaprogressive Oct 2023 #8
I don't like the idea of doxxing anyone for expressing an opinion, even a reprehensible one. Ocelot II Oct 2023 #9
"doxxing encourages harassment and even violence" redqueen Oct 2023 #17
Totally agree. wnylib Oct 2023 #52
The statement supported Hamas and justified the attacks JI7 Oct 2023 #11
I agree. It's a reprehensible statement. But doxxing is also reprehensible because wnylib Oct 2023 #54
DURec leftstreet Oct 2023 #13
I think doxxing is ok if you say something out loud, but not if you sign onto a letter or petition. Beakybird Oct 2023 #15
As I see it there are two schools of thought. One believes this is McCarthism in full view, while JohnSJ Oct 2023 #18
Is doxxing a first amendment right? nt redqueen Oct 2023 #21
I stated my view a few days ago, and my argument that it was close to McCarthyism, was not JohnSJ Oct 2023 #37
Easily, yes Sympthsical Oct 2023 #39
+1. nailed pretty much ever single point! brava! -(nt)- stopdiggin Oct 2023 #55
Yes. nt kelly1mm Oct 2023 #81
These are young adults forming their worldviews. LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #24
+1 redqueen Oct 2023 #28
Do people say that about racists? Sympthsical Oct 2023 #42
The students that got doxxed. Are they calling for the iraddication of Israel? LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #44
None of that addresses a single thing I said. Sympthsical Oct 2023 #45
The end game of racism is genocide. LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #59
This is topic jumping Sympthsical Oct 2023 #62
Equating racism with the student statement LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #65
read the statement they released again. stopdiggin Oct 2023 #56
It's strongly worded, immature and emotional. LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #61
it was strongly worded. way off base. and supremely stupid. stopdiggin Oct 2023 #64
I'm not disagreeing with you LuvLoogie Oct 2023 #66
and I would probably agree there stopdiggin Oct 2023 #67
Yes!!! Butterflylady Oct 2023 #92
How is this any different AkFemDem Oct 2023 #31
Doxxing abusers and rapists is one thing redqueen Oct 2023 #34
Funny that nobody around here Zeitghost Oct 2023 #47
A racist Karen has taken a direct action in public, usually in the form of harassing Ocelot II Oct 2023 #40
And then doesn't that discourage people from expressing opinions because wnylib Oct 2023 #58
I oppose doxing sarisataka Oct 2023 #35
it's been interesting to watch bigtree Oct 2023 #41
So much this! nt kelly1mm Oct 2023 #82
On the topic of doxing, there is a divide in our community. musicblind Oct 2023 #90
How is it doxxing if they signed a public statement? ripcord Oct 2023 #43
They didn't. As far as I know, Crunchy Frog Oct 2023 #93
Imagine if they had this in the 1960s DBoon Oct 2023 #49
+1 jcmaine72 Oct 2023 #57
Weren't these the clowns behind Jesse Helms takeover attempt of CBS? bucolic_frolic Oct 2023 #50
If they're just IDing them, own your words. oldsoftie Oct 2023 #51
I continue to be shocked at the utter intolerance on campuses..... Mark.b2 Oct 2023 #68
Brother Jed and Disco Cindy? stuck in the middle Oct 2023 #83
If you are going to support groups that support false and hateful statements ripcord Oct 2023 #69
The act of hate and targeting innocents will be dealt with in whatever violence is needed to defeat such evil. DearMusic Oct 2023 #75
The group doing the doxxing is not your friend disablegamer Oct 2023 #76
Hateful statements get hateful responses ripcord Oct 2023 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author brush Oct 2023 #77
We've danced this dance a bunch of times here. We know all the steps Captain Stern Oct 2023 #88

617Blue

(2,472 posts)
1. "Accuracy in Media, a conservative media advocacy group."
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:39 AM
Oct 2023
Accuracy in Media (AIM) is a conservative "media watchdog" organization founded in 1969 by Federal Reserve economist, staunch anti-communist, and unhinged Bircher nutcase Reed Irvine (1922–2004),[1] currently run by his son, Don. It was one of the first watchdog groups set up to fight "liberal media bias," making it something like the older but still ragingly crazy brother of Brent Bozell's Media Research Center. While its content tends to be less fluffy than your average Bozell material, AIM is notorious for pushing quite a lot of its own insanity.



Bircher anti Semites calling other people anti Semites.

EllieBC

(3,639 posts)
2. There are TikTok and Twitter accounts devoted to
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:40 AM
Oct 2023

doxxing racists and bigots.

But somehow it’s only wrong when it’s doxxing Hamas apologists?

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
6. it's as wrong as doxxing Democrats
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:47 AM
Oct 2023

...this isn't hard.

'The stunt was sponsored by Accuracy in Media, a conservative media advocacy group.'

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
7. Who said it was only wrong now?
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:47 AM
Oct 2023

Doxxing rapists and abusers is one thing, doxxing people for opinions is wrong.

 

kelly1mm

(5,756 posts)
78. Any opinions? If someone has an opinion that all Muslims are terrorists or that black
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 03:57 AM
Oct 2023

people are inherently inferior to others should they be subject to doxxing? As we often say free speech is not consequence free speech.

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
3. I Have Very Little Sympathy, Ma'am
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:40 AM
Oct 2023

For people who place the blame for atrocity anywhere but squarely on the people who conceive, plan, and execute it.

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
4. we're not in Israel
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:45 AM
Oct 2023

...and no one should express sympathy or support for anyone breaking the law in this country to encourage attacks on our citizens or inhabitants, no matter where the miscreants' sympathies lie toward some foreign conflict.

Cheering doxxing on isn't actually an admirable American value.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
10. Oh but it is
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:53 AM
Oct 2023

IF it's something said people agree with. Funny how that works isn't it.

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
12. If The Information Bruited About Is Public, Sir
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:57 AM
Oct 2023

Where is the violation of law? If portions of it required hacking records or any other form of unauthorized acquisition of confidential information, I will change my view of the matter.

People took a public stance in this, one readily seen as apologia for atrocity. That was their choice. That they gauged poorly the direction and intensity of the response merely adds an additional layer to their poor judgement in signing the thing in the first place.

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
36. that's their right, in America.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:27 AM
Oct 2023

...and it's not a right only afforded in just their defense.

No one excercising that right made a 'choice' to be publicly exposed for the purpose of directing attacks toward them personally.

Your animosity doesn't outweigh that correct expectation of their right to express an opinion publicly. The 'online intimidation and harrassment' isn't just about the 'intensity of the response,' it's about targeting these individuals for bullying and other abuses - something which the Harvard Executive Vice President took time to address.

"Harvard “takes seriously the safety and wellbeing of every member of our community” and “does not condone or ignore intimidation.”

“We do not condone or ignore threats or acts of harassment or violence,” Weenick wrote. “Officials within our Schools have been in contact with students to ensure they are aware of resources available to them if they are concerned about their physical safety or experience an immediate threat.”


Replace that with your falderal and we might as well be in Russia, or some other country which regards non-threatening speech they disagree with as a weapon.

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
46. I Disagree, Sir
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 12:58 PM
Oct 2023

Politics, as they say, ain't bean-bag. Taking public sides in a war certainly is not.

I do confess some animosity towards people capable of such stupidity as the statements emerging from some left groups embody, and grant you it lends some extra edge to my view of this triviality.

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
48. this is about university policy, more than about someone's politics
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:04 PM
Oct 2023

...these college students exercising their rights to protest are doing so within a community which has to manage myriad views and interests in a setting which values ideas and the free expression of views which aren't inherently threatening.

The concern from the university president is clear and valid:

Harvard Executive Vice President Meredith L. Weenick wrote that the school “takes seriously the safety and wellbeing of every member of our community” and “does not condone or ignore intimidation.”

“We do not condone or ignore threats or acts of harassment or violence,” Weenick wrote. “Officials within our Schools have been in contact with students to ensure they are aware of resources available to them if they are concerned about their physical safety or experience an immediate threat.”


These students will very likely change their views several times over the course of their school year, much more after they leave school.

They should be allowed to engage in those pursuits without fear of doxxing. But most importantly, the school is correct in assuming responsibility in ensuring they can do so in a safe environment, free from those who believe their personal animosities entitle them to disregard those laws and other protections the university provides.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
53. wait a sec. this was a PUBLIC statement
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:44 PM
Oct 2023

not something intended for the confines of the Harvard community.

While I totally disapprove of the doxing - you simply cannot affix your name to something like this - with the expectation of maintaining anonymity. I really hope no one suffers physical harm as a result. But, yee gods - the stupid ...
- - - - - - - - - - -

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
60. all I see are people jumping on students
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 08:28 PM
Oct 2023

...for doing what college students do.

No one has a right to endanger students because they disagree with what they're saying.

There isn't a more important issue here. Debating what they said, and making that some arbiter of whether they deserve to be able to speak without fear of harm in America completely misses what's really at risk here.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
63. I agree. But then we would have to also agree
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 08:47 PM
Oct 2023

that the virulent racists and white nationalists on campus (and Jew/LGBTQ/Muslim haters) are allowed their 'voice' - and accorded safety and protections from doxing, etc. ...

(and as other posters have pointed out - the reaction there from a lot of our number is, "Oh, now wait .. That's really different! ) Agreed?

Ms. Toad

(38,639 posts)
71. In several instances, the groups' names were affixed without going through the proper channels.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:40 PM
Oct 2023

In some instances board members of the endorsing groups were not even aware of the letter before it was published.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
72. then we of course will be seeing mass
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 01:21 AM
Oct 2023

resignations and public disavowals ...
And, no, I am not offering snark. I think this 'mistake' was egregious enough that people wishing to retain their good name - will necessarily be reconsidering their affiliation and membership with organizations that so seriously blundered ...

As for the doxing - I have never been a fan, and that includes instances when it is employed in the opposite direction. But - in the very midst of this bloodthirsty slaughter of civilians ... ! That is some serious mistake, my friend. And, some sort of reckoning for this kind of contorted rationale and horrible misjudgement is - probably no more than due.

And, so - - with full expectation of those rightful resignations and disavowals to come ...

Ms. Toad

(38,639 posts)
84. Resignations and disavowals are happening.
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 11:30 AM
Oct 2023

But those never receive the kind of publicity the initial story does.

 

kelly1mm

(5,756 posts)
80. Why should they be allowed to engage in those persuits without fear of doxxing? Racist,
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 04:08 AM
Oct 2023

homophobic, and other bigoted opinions by people, including students are often met with doxxing, Are all those wrong as well. Doxxing Jan 6th people?

musicblind

(4,563 posts)
85. n/t
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 11:55 AM
Oct 2023

Because of the length of this reply, I am going to move it to a more relevant place in this conversation.

 

kelly1mm

(5,756 posts)
79. Free speech is not consequence free speech. While THE GOVERNMENT cannot
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 04:02 AM
Oct 2023

suppress speech or punish the speaker, other people/entities are free to do so. In fact, their 'punishing' the original speaker is also free speech and not subject to government suppression.

musicblind

(4,563 posts)
86. Regarding free speech and consequences...
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 11:59 AM
Oct 2023

The belief that "free speech does not mean freedom from consequences" is an unproductive belief that is not compatible with the purposes of free speech, and I'll tell you why.

While the First Amendment only applies to the government, the concept of free speech exists in many forward-thinking countries, and the free flow of information provided by unchilled speech is a necessary part of the process of exchanging ideas and changing ideas. The exchanging and changing of ideas is not only a vital part of free speech, but it is the reason free speech holds societal value to begin with.

Changing bad ideas is essential to the betterment of society, but chilling bad ideas worsens society by making it less predictable and concealing danger. If you chill an idea, that does not make the idea go away; that makes it hide under a rock like a coiled snake. Much like a coiled snake, that idea lives on, grows, and bides its time, waiting for an opportune moment to strike. The damage that bad idea will cause is not stopped, only delayed.

The only way to stop a bad idea is to change it. The only way to change a bad idea is through persuasion and not coercion. If you use coercive fear to chill ideas, then you will never be able to turn your attention to the next rung on the ladder of progress because the moment you move on, that bad idea will flare up like a flame starved of oxygen. However, if you persuade someone that their idea is wrong, you can freely move on to tackle other goals.

People who believe in chilling speech do not believe in free speech because the goal of chilling speech is to make the consequences of saying a bad idea so grave that the person harboring that idea does not feel free to speak it. Instead, that idea swims around in their stomach and festers like a wound, waiting to infect others.

Shouting down ideas is easy, and it gives us a quick rush of dopamine, but it does not cure anything. It masks the linguistic symptoms of a larger social disease. Instead of doing the easy things, we must be willing to do the hard things because it is the hard things that bring about real change. Easy things are rarely worth doing.

 

kelly1mm

(5,756 posts)
91. Should racist, bigoted, homophobic speech have consequences? Should employers
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 05:55 PM
Oct 2023

have to hire speakers who are openly anti-muslim? If any and all speech should be consequence free should Jan 6 supporters have free reign in our workplaces and schools to spew whatever with no consequences?

What about speech that equates to sexual harassment in the workplace? Basically that is not a criminal act (by the state) but is 'free speech' that can lead to termination. In your view isn't that chilling free speech?

I believe if your opinion were adopted it would be an end to almost all workplace harassment claims that only involve speech. Is that what you are arguing for?

Ms. Toad

(38,639 posts)
70. Not everyone being doxxed did.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:31 PM
Oct 2023

Several of the groups ignored their processes for endorsements, and members - and in some cases officers - had never seen the statement until after it was released with an endorsement they never consented to.

So no, in many cases, it was not their choice.

As for doxxing for taking public stances - I've been doxxed for being a lesbian whose name was associated with a national LGBTQ organization. Fortunately, it was before the internet took off, so the backlash wasn't too bad. But I did receive hate mail from Fred Phelps at my personal address. Doxxing for the purpose of encouraging harassment is morally wrong, whether it is legal or not. It is even more reprehensible when - as here - some of the people being doxxed were not involved with the decision to endorse the publlic stance - or - as is more common, when people dox individuals they believe were engaged in bigoted behavior without bothering to first confirm that they got it right.

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
14. They're doxxing people who had nothing to do with it.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:59 AM
Oct 2023

But yeah I get it - cOnSeQuEnCeS!!!1!

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
16. Had Nothing To Do With What, Ma'am?
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:04 AM
Oct 2023

You cite an account saying that members of a group which produced the statement are being made known. If the statement was the official expression of the group, all members share the responsibility for it. Those who do not support it are free to resign membership.

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
19. From the link:
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:09 AM
Oct 2023
Harvard Economics professor Jason Furman ’92 shared a similar statement on X, writing that he had been contacted by a student who had been doxxed despite no longer attending Harvard or affiliating with the co-signing group.

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
22. There Are Always Errors, Ma'am
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:15 AM
Oct 2023

I do not expect perfection in any human enterprise. Should a sizeable portion of the names publicized be of people unaffiliated with the groups at present, that would change my view of the matter.

But I repeat, I have little sympathy for people who place blame for atrocity anywhere but squarely on the persons who conceived, planned, and executed it.

cayugafalls

(5,960 posts)
26. It wasn't people, it was the groups, signing for the members, who may or may not agree.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:16 AM
Oct 2023

Sir.

The Magistrate

(96,043 posts)
29. Fine
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:21 AM
Oct 2023

People had nothing to do with it, the group was made up of something other than people, and members of the group do not support its public expressions.


"I'm going home. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
27. That's the thing about these internet vigilantes
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:17 AM
Oct 2023

they don't care. They just want to feel righteous and punish the wicked for their sins.

cayugafalls

(5,960 posts)
30. It is not a world for pacifist, anymore.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:21 AM
Oct 2023

I find it hard each day just to not scream at the insanity of it all.

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
32. Just remember there are lots of us out here
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:23 AM
Oct 2023

Most of us are just usually quiet and non confrontational

Bluethroughu

(7,215 posts)
5. There is no way, we can allow the middle east conflict divide
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:46 AM
Oct 2023

Our country up.

I'm sure we all agree on the same things:

1. Hamas attack on Israel is a disgusting crime against humanity!

2. The majority of Palestinians should not all be put to death for the minority among them.

3. We need to coalesce around world peace and prosperity for all humans, and work to elect governments that protect us by producing policies that promote equality, freedom and prosperity for all. People just want to live life, and the more people have to lose, the less likely they will involve themselves in horrible behaviors.

Bluethroughu

(7,215 posts)
23. President Biden is already moving policy there in a humanitarian way.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:15 AM
Oct 2023

We can be better here, together we can fix the broken or go out MAGA CHAOS STYLE, that's made to be broken.

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
9. I don't like the idea of doxxing anyone for expressing an opinion, even a reprehensible one.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:52 AM
Oct 2023

We do have the right to our opinions, even bad ones, and doxxing encourages harassment and even violence. Things are bad enough as they are without throwing even more gasoline on this particular fire.

JI7

(93,617 posts)
11. The statement supported Hamas and justified the attacks
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:53 AM
Oct 2023

against Israeli civilians which at that time was still happening and Israel had not responded.

This would be the same as people that supported the terrorists that attacked the Capitol.

And of course all those Karen incidents .

wnylib

(26,016 posts)
54. I agree. It's a reprehensible statement. But doxxing is also reprehensible because
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:47 PM
Oct 2023

it leads to harassment and violence.

Beakybird

(3,397 posts)
15. I think doxxing is ok if you say something out loud, but not if you sign onto a letter or petition.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:04 AM
Oct 2023
 

JohnSJ

(98,883 posts)
18. As I see it there are two schools of thought. One believes this is McCarthism in full view, while
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:08 AM
Oct 2023

others believe the protesters have chosen to make their views public, and exposing them is a reflection of first amendment rights.

 

JohnSJ

(98,883 posts)
37. I stated my view a few days ago, and my argument that it was close to McCarthyism, was not
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:30 AM
Oct 2023

successful in my position with the consensus in the thread I was engaged in.

I don't plan to reargue my point.

As to your question regarding doxxing, my question would be is doxxing illegal?




Sympthsical

(10,969 posts)
39. Easily, yes
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:32 AM
Oct 2023

If you're publicly attached to a statement, spreading that information around doesn't run afoul of any First Amendment right I'm aware of.

Public statements aren't made in secret. If you didn't know a group you were in was doing that, ok, resign and make a statement (as some have). And be careful of the people you associate with in the future.

Lessons being learned.

Look, the fact of the matter is that doxxing and hounding people for Wrong Opinion has been going on for some years now, cheered precisely in some of the ideological enclaves that now find themselves targeted. I hate the shit, and I have long, long warned that one day it will circle round right back on the promoters of it.

Those who enjoy persecuting are somehow always surprised when they become the persecuted. Gee, what a completely unforeseeable consequence of these actions!

Do I like what's happening? No. I'm against this shit on principle. However, there is a level of care I'm prepared to assign these things. Nurse just trying to get home from work? I'm at a 10 on being against doxxing based on out of context social media video.

Students part of radical groups that go after people for Wrong Opinion who find themselves suddenly getting nailed for Wrong Opinion? I'm at about a 1 or 2. It's wrong, but I somehow don't give a shit and am not mustering up much sympathy.

It's the dildo of foreseeable consequences, and it chafes.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
24. These are young adults forming their worldviews.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:15 AM
Oct 2023

While some will conflate support for Palestinians with support for Hamas, most don't. Doxxing kids for their opinions, uninformed or otherwise, just doesn't sit right with me. One may be a member of a student group without necessarily being involved in their communications at a given time.

Everyone is entitled to their political voice. Making a hit list because someone has a differing opinion, or set of priorities they care about on Israel-Palestine, is itself a militant action, and might even be a form of stochastic terrorism.

Support for Palestinians is not going to end. Neither is support for Israel.



Sympthsical

(10,969 posts)
42. Do people say that about racists?
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:35 AM
Oct 2023

I don't think they say that about racists.

I've seen people have their lives ruined over tweets they made at 14 or 15.

Don't recall seeing hand-wringing, "Just young and learning!" much in response from our side.

If you want consequences for others, you have to have those consequences for yourself. That's how it works.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
44. The students that got doxxed. Are they calling for the iraddication of Israel?
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 12:01 PM
Oct 2023

The extermination of Jews? If you doxx somebody's daughter over their support for Palestine, you gonna call a kick in the teeth by her Dad felonious assault, or "consequences?"

Opposition to Hamas is pretty widespread in this country. Just a few fringe elements might support their existence and what they did.

But there is also valid and growing criticism of the State of Israel in how it has handled the occupied territories.

Are there anti-Semites in these organizations expressing support for Palestine? I'm sure there are a some.

But expressing support for Palestine and criticism of Israel isn't in itself racist.



Sympthsical

(10,969 posts)
45. None of that addresses a single thing I said.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 12:06 PM
Oct 2023

And you're offering hyperbolic scenarios no one here as posited rather than engaging with the current fact set. This isn't useful or productive.

You are papering over the problem in the statement. When a terrorist group is in the middle of committing one of the worst terrorist atrocities in modern history, and your very first instinct is to blame the victims and let the terrorist group slide, guess what?

It's not a good thing, and people aren't going to like it. People are going to have things to say about that. They are.

Speech for thee, speech for me. That's how it works.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
59. The end game of racism is genocide.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 07:41 PM
Oct 2023

Hyperbolic scenarios? A six-year-old boy and his mother were stabbed in Illinois this week. The child died. Likely a racist killing fueled by past and current demonization of Palestinians in this country. Granted it's an offshoot of America's home grown racism, but if you are going to try and create a straw man out of racism, then have him bring both feet into the fire.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is systemic racism against African Americans in the U.S.?

Is it possible that, maybe, just a little, perhaps, systemic racism has crept into Israel's policies toward Palestinians?

Arabs are roughly 20% of the population in Israel, and have less than 10% representation in the Knesset.

In the U.S., African Americans comprise about 12% of the population and have about 11% representation in Congress.

So is support for Palestinians anti-Semitic, or is support for Israel anti-Semitic? Arabs are Semites too.

Who killed Yitzhak Rabin? Why?

Sympthsical

(10,969 posts)
62. This is topic jumping
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 08:42 PM
Oct 2023

We've now gone from sanctioning people for speech to a hate crime. You know, Jews have not been having a good time of it either, in case you didn't notice. You then move to discussing racism at large - which has zero to do with the student statement.

And you - not me - you are conflating Palestinians with Hamas. Which I'm almost positive is something you don't intend. At least, I don't think so. It's certainly not something I'd do.

The student group statement controversy has to do with a lack of condemnation of Hamas and blaming Israel for a terrorist attack against innocent civilians.

That's the topic at hand. Not "What do you think about Whatever Topic I Throw Into This In The Hopes Something Sticks?" If people are interested in peace, truly interested, the first thing they should do is stop muddying the waters and combining Hamas with innocent Palestians and lumping the entire populace together in such a way that what Hamas does is justified by the Palestinian problem.

Which, again, is what you've been doing. I honestly am not sure if you realize you're doing it. The argument is so strangely omnidirectional, you've somehow become more anti-Palestinian than most people as a result. That the Palestinian issue is somehow Hamas-justifying.

Which is worse than the Harvard statement. Which I really hope you're not intending.

Arguments matter. Throwing stuff around willy nilly can end up in a weird place.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
65. Equating racism with the student statement
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 09:05 PM
Oct 2023

is willy nilly. And is a lazy excuse for doxxing them.

What they basically said is the chickens came home to roost. And you are supporting putting a target on their backs for saying so.

BTW, there are reports saying that Netanyahu was kinda feeding those chickens, just a little, to play them against the Palestinian Authority.

You wanna stick to one hook without realizing you opened a can of worms and forgot to close the lid.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
56. read the statement they released again.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:55 PM
Oct 2023

WAY beyond just 'support for Palestinian' (and/or their mistreatment and plight). Way beyond.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
61. It's strongly worded, immature and emotional.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 08:33 PM
Oct 2023

But I've seen worse from elected representatives, government officials, pundits and professionals.

I've seen similar statements in the past from guests on news shows.

It doesn't say that it supports what Hamas did. It doesn't call for the elimination of Israel or of Jews.

People have characterized the "right of return" an anti-Semitic, anti-Israel position.

Doxxing these students, places a target on them.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
64. it was strongly worded. way off base. and supremely stupid.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 08:56 PM
Oct 2023

WRONG in almost every respect.
(elsewhere I have made my opinion on 'doxing' clear) But that's a separate issue, and I did not address it with that post.

Being in college is not a 'get out of jail' card. Harm dealt out is harm dealt out. This was harmful. And I stand by the post.

LuvLoogie

(8,815 posts)
66. I'm not disagreeing with you
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 09:15 PM
Oct 2023

I just don't think it's as over the top as others I've seen in the past. I understand why you feel the way you do about the statement.

But I also understand the motive, in this environment, of doxxing them. That is more egregious than the student statement. In my opinion.

stopdiggin

(15,463 posts)
67. and I would probably agree there
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 09:25 PM
Oct 2023

the doxing thing was also bottom shelf kind of stuff. We simply don't need that in the public arena.

 

AkFemDem

(2,508 posts)
31. How is this any different
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:22 AM
Oct 2023

Then when people post pictures and names of racism Karens and the like all over social media??

We often say actions have consequences, but these students are learning that words do too. If you say or back antisemitic rhetoric then you may find yourself held accountable in uncomfortable ways.

redqueen

(115,186 posts)
34. Doxxing abusers and rapists is one thing
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:25 AM
Oct 2023

Doxxing people for opinions is wrong. Yes, even repugnant opinions.

Also 'Karen' is a sexist insult, jsyk

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
40. A racist Karen has taken a direct action in public, usually in the form of harassing
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:34 AM
Oct 2023

or otherwise harming someone else. These days just about everything you do in public might end up on social media, and that sort of behavior often ends up on video. The person might lose their job or suffer other consequences as a result. But even that isn't the same as doxxing, which usually takes the form of publishing a person's name and home address; and these days this can result in even worse and more extreme consequences to the person's family and property. I'm not OK with doxxing even those Karens, and certainly not some bonehead students who got on an ideological bandwagon without thinking, as so often happens -- in the current atmosphere people are being harmed or killed for their opinions.

wnylib

(26,016 posts)
58. And then doesn't that discourage people from expressing opinions because
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 07:02 PM
Oct 2023

they might get doxxed, harassed, and targeted for worse as a result of expressing a view?

Doxxing encourages polarization and simplistic slogan "thinking." Like Bush the Lesser, it is a way if saying "with me or against me." If you are with me, ok. If not, you are a subhuman "other" and fair game for anything.

bigtree

(94,263 posts)
41. it's been interesting to watch
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:34 AM
Oct 2023

...as a progressive community wrestles with applying values to our our own behavior which we regularly apply to those we politically oppose.

musicblind

(4,563 posts)
90. On the topic of doxing, there is a divide in our community.
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 01:53 PM
Oct 2023

Not every progressive supports doxing people for racist, homophobic, or bigoted speech.

Their hate speech is repugnant, but nobody has ever had their minds changed by having their lives ruined by the people they hate.

We should be in the business of changing minds, not ruining lives. The more minds we change, the more people we can protect because bad ideas are like seeds. If you bury them, they grow.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
43. How is it doxxing if they signed a public statement?
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:40 AM
Oct 2023

If you are going to put your name on an incendiary statement that is releases to the press do you have any expectation of privacy at all?

Crunchy Frog

(28,280 posts)
93. They didn't. As far as I know,
Fri Oct 20, 2023, 05:24 PM
Oct 2023

these statements were signed by organizations without their regular members necessarily either knowing or approving.

Some of the people doxxed weren't even affiliated anymore.

DBoon

(24,987 posts)
49. Imagine if they had this in the 1960s
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:23 PM
Oct 2023

They could have made life even more difficult for students opposing racial segregation or the Vietnam War

 

oldsoftie

(13,538 posts)
51. If they're just IDing them, own your words.
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 06:37 PM
Oct 2023

Calling for any violence or the like is unacceptable
But as an employer, I'd like to know if you're going to support terrorists. I dont.
If they are making racist statements we'd want them exposed as well.

Mark.b2

(797 posts)
68. I continue to be shocked at the utter intolerance on campuses.....
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 10:33 PM
Oct 2023

I remember in the early 80's on my campus this evangelical nut preaching and proclaiming villainy on women and LGBT members...saying they deserved death. That stoning should return. Shit like that. He was there almost daily. Most of us just went about our day even though I never saw someone support him. No way he could do it nowadays.


 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
69. If you are going to support groups that support false and hateful statements
Wed Oct 18, 2023, 11:17 PM
Oct 2023

Don't be surprised when you are held responsible for them. Even without the truck the names of these idiots were going to come out.

 

DearMusic

(10 posts)
75. The act of hate and targeting innocents will be dealt with in whatever violence is needed to defeat such evil.
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 01:59 AM
Oct 2023

hamas started this and their demise will end it ... until the next evil comes along. Bless Israel and all those for good.

 

disablegamer

(85 posts)
76. The group doing the doxxing is not your friend
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 02:25 AM
Oct 2023

Plz remember we have to be better then to think just because in the moment a group that doesn't ally with our cause is standing with us. Think Why this right wing group is willing to dox people. I'm sure in your heart you know they aren't doing it to stand with anyone just to cause chaos.

Response to redqueen (Original post)

Captain Stern

(2,253 posts)
88. We've danced this dance a bunch of times here. We know all the steps
Thu Oct 19, 2023, 12:17 PM
Oct 2023

Freedom of Speech doesn't not mean you don't have to face the consequences of that speech.

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