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Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...a huge crowd.
BlueWaveNeverEnd
(14,930 posts)
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,171 posts)I just don't understand why they think Israel is the bad guy in this conflict.
Israel was viciously attacked by a terrorist org, and yet, according to some, they are the bad guys.
Flame away.
Cha
(320,453 posts)HAMAS LIED .. "Israel Did Not hit that Hospital" But Israelis Were Slaughtered by HAMAS.
AP visual analysis: Rocket from Gaza appeared to go astray, likely caused deadly hospital explosion
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218387961
And, these Sources..
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18388947
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,171 posts)Thank you.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...that hamas is not the entire Palestinian population, there are nonviolent, non-military civilians caught up in this on both sides.
MarineCombatEngineer
(18,171 posts)but sooner or later those innocent Palestinians are going to have to face the fact that Hamas has brought nothing but misery and death to them, they need to throw them the fuck out.
Easy for me to say as I live in the US, but that's the way it is.
The Palestinians need a nation of their own, there is no doubt about that, but don't ask me how to accomplish, that's way above my pay grade.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)....and this is just a shot in the dark, but perhaps there's a golden opportunity there to begin quietly working with Palestinians who don't agree with the violence in order to undermine and disable the violent aggressors.
Obviously, it would be tricky, and thos peaceful Palestinians would be risking retribution from hamas if caught, but if the same amount of time, intelligence, money, and passion were spent on that as is spent on warfare, ...maybe it's worth a try at least? Instead of vilifying all of them because of their cultural backgrounds?
As a species, we have to stop hurting and killing each other on such grand scales, someday.
NotVeryImportant
(578 posts)They could be protesting the fact that now countless innocent Palestinian citizens are being bombed to smithereens?
Abolishinist
(3,047 posts)how many of these 'protestors' have immigrated to France from Muslim majority countries. You know, those who were on the one hand given refuge, yet on the other have never really accepted the concept of a western democracy.
Prairie Gates
(8,467 posts)France has a rather, er, complicated history with majority Muslim countries, immigration, citizenship, etc. "Given refuge" is an odd locution given that history.
Abolishinist
(3,047 posts)"France and Portugal are among the countries that have given refuge to significant numbers of migrants. But some Central and Eastern European countries with relatively homogeneous populations and little experience with multiculturalism have resisted. Hungary and Poland have taken no refugees, and the Czech Republic stopped participating in the program, so they all face legal action."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/world/europe/eu-refugees-czech-republic-hungary-poland.html#:~:text=France%20and%20Portugal%20are%20among,experience%20with%20multiculturalism%20have%20resisted
muriel_volestrangler
(106,566 posts)First you mention "have immigrated to France from Muslim majority countries" (preceded by 'protestors' in scare quotes, for some reason - are you saying they're not really protesting? How have you managed to arrive at that belief?). Then you mention people who were "given refuge" (though while some from Muslim majority countries may have been refugees, but many will have arrived through normal immigration processes, especially from former French colonies), but "have never really accepted the concept of a western democracy".
And you try to equate these 2 different groups. Though you know very well you should not try to claim that beliefs that a few may hold should not be projected onto an entire group. Even if you say "you know" to join them, as if this is common knowledge.
https://open.maricopa.edu/culturepsychology/chapter/stereotypes-prejudice-and-discrimination/
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)chanting the anti-Semitic “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free?”
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)I assume they are protesting against the Hamas child murderers but is it something else?
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)
Donkees
(33,745 posts)Around 15,000 people turned out at the Place de la Republique, according to police figures, to express solidarity with Palestinians and call for a ceasefire as the death toll from Israeli strikes in Gaza rose to more than 4,700.
"We are here to defend the freedom (of) the people of Palestine, especially with what's happening in Gaza - it's unacceptable," said Noureddine Mansour, a protester present at the Paris rally.
A similar protest in Brussels drew around 12,000, Belgian police said.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/thousands-gather-paris-first-authorised-pro-palestinian-demo-since-oct-7-hamas-2023-10-22/
LiberaBlueDem
(1,167 posts)It has nothing do do with anti-semitism, it has all to do with the barbaric state of Israel's actions
Revenge against Hamas is understood, but the way the state of Israel is going about fixing the problem is turning the world against the state of Israel
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Israel is used to global public opinion turning against them. They’re well aware that much of the world puts little value on Jewish life. Even then, they’ll move forward and so what needs to be done to secure their very existence.
edhopper
(37,513 posts)support Isreal? 
LexVegas
(6,962 posts)Uh huh.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)We protest in this country when innocent people are killed too. And some of those protests here have been huge. That's how I see it. They want peace & they want this to end. However Israel is not willing to consider a ceasefire.
How much revenge & payback is enough when thousands of innocent people have paid the price?
yagotme
(4,136 posts)Any guilty parties in that number? "XXX Palestinians killed" may look good for the backing of Palestine, but without breaking down the numbers of innocents/militants, it's just propaganda. We killed a lot of Nazi's in Germany and France by bombing, but civilians got hit too. Count everybody as "innocent"?
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)This is the death toll but is 3 days old and has since climbed obviously.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroys-quarter-northern-gaza-strip-palestinian-death-toll-exceeds-4000-enar#:~:text=According%20to%20documentation%20by%20Euro,them%20being%20children%20and%20women.]
yagotme
(4,136 posts)According to them, all deaths were civilian. Think about that. Israel is targeting Hamas sites, and just civilians die. Seems odd. Maybe that group has an agenda, or actually didn't see the actual bodies, or Hamas, (which don't wear uniforms, BTW), are amongst the dead and wounded, which is most likely. I can't believe, with all the bombs dropped, that NO militant has been killed. No sense whatsoever.
After a quick scan of the article, I didn't see how many rockets have landed in Israel, or the to-date death toll there. No mention of war crimes committed by Hamas. A little one-sided, perhaps? A little bias showing?
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)And I've not heard of anyone killed from Hamas rockets & that's likely because most don't get through thanks to the iron dome.
Also I think the totals they list is likely low & not only because it's 3 days old but many are likely buried beneath rubble.
I think the amount of innocent children being killed though is more than enough for revenge & payback.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)This ain’t about revenge and payback. It’s about wiping out Hamas, who hide and conduct military operations amongst the innocent civilians.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Abolishinist
(3,047 posts)Crystal.
yagotme
(4,136 posts)"Relief org's" can have political bias. Revenge is being quoted as why Israel is dropping bombs, because of the Hamas attack. So, now, the Hamas has a revenge quota. See? Round and round we go. And I still don't believe that this org. is on the ground, actually counting bodies. I bet they're getting reports from a Palestinian group, which most likely will be slanted. I reiterate, I don't believe not 1 Hamas fighter has been killed in the bombing.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,566 posts)That seems like the figures you asked about.
yagotme
(4,136 posts)Euro-Med Monitor was established in November 2011 and is registered in Switzerland (CH-660.0.748.015-1), where it maintains its official headquarters. The idea of Euro-Med Monitor is inspired by the people’s will to rebel against tyranny and oppression that swept through the Arab region in 2011 and continues to percolate everywhere. Euro-Med Monitor strives to support these movements by planting the seeds for international mobilization and stimulating human rights organizations and decision-makers to focus on violation of the people’s right to expression and freedom.
Currently, in addition to our administrative/policy office in Geneva (home of many human rights-related UN bodies), Euro-Med Monitor has a regional office in the Palestinian Occupied Territories, in addition to representatives and collaborations with organizations serving the remaining MENA countries and Europe. Euro-Med is managed by a senior staff dispersed among these countries and guided by a Board of Trustees.
Underlined part mine. "A" regional office in Pal. Occupied Territories. One office. From the sound of it, a handful of kids getting reports from Hamas how bad it is. Just my suspicious nature, I guess.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,566 posts)It's not as if anyone can enter and exit the Gaza Strip to examine numbers. If you don't trust and outside NGO already in the Palestinian Territories to work out the numbers, who will you trust?
yagotme
(4,136 posts)"BOMBS DROPPED!!! CIVILIANS KILLED!!!!" Hamas has to be getting hit also, along with the civilians they're using as shields. I can't believe that NGO is walking around a bomb range, looking at bodies, determining "civilian" and "militant". They wear the same clothes. About the only way to determine an "innocent", is by age (and that's not 100%). I can't trust the numbers, because I don't trust Hamas. Hamas is MOST LIKELY supplying these numbers (remember the hospital attack numbers?). My asking about Hamas' deaths was to possibly bring out a thought process here, the next time a big headline about civilian's deaths comes roaring out.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...what IS the ratio of military-wing hamas agents that are being killed as opposed to non-violent Palestinian civilians?
yagotme
(4,136 posts)"civilians" that are killed. Makes Hamas look better.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...who really knows what all those children were doing all day (before they killed).
yagotme
(4,136 posts)here's your answer/my guess:
Maybe, since they and their parents were told to get the heck out of dodge, and they didn't because they're militant sympathizers/workers, they could have been working in the missile factory in the basement, or be building chest rigs for suicide bombs. It IS a possibility, you know...
What about the adults? Not 1 single terrorist got caught in the bombing? NOT 1??? Hard to fathom...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...you're concern should be more along the lines of even 1 innocent civilian "caught in the bombing"?
QUICK! PICK UP YOUR FAMILY AND LEAVE EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY FOR AN UNKNOWN DESTINATION RIGHT NOW!...
....
(Are you all settled into YOUR new place yet?)
Edit to add: Why are you assuming not even one militant was killed? That seems unlikely...
yagotme
(4,136 posts)And I believe it is self-reported, therefore suspect. "CIVILIANS KILLED IN BOMBING!!!!!" Well, how many Hamas were killed in that bombing? (Crickets)
They were given notice to leave. They HAD to know what was coming. It's a war crime to place military stuff in civilian area. It's a war crime to use civilians as shields/pawns in warfare. Where's the Hague against Hamas? THEY started this most recent hullaballoo, and knew very well what Israel was going to do in return. Why are they still firing rockets? Another war crime. Who's going to make them stop, other than Israel? Perhaps you'd better Think. Again...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...apparently it's easy for you to justify military operations that don't consider avoiding civilian casualties.
I personally find that repulsive.
Enjoy your new reality TV war show.
yagotme
(4,136 posts)civilian casualties. Evac order. Dropping leaflets before bombing. Perhaps I'm not the one not getting it???
Talk about putting words in other people's mouths...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...you haven't immediately left your home, your life, everything you know and love for some unknown destination yetm
Alrighty then, I'll let everyone know that was your choice for whatever nefarious reasons you might have.
(Disclaimer: this is only a hypothetical communication method meant to convey a thought that relates to this discussion and this is not to be mis-read as any kind of active threat. I can't believe I had to write that but I have had many posts diberately twisted and manipulated. Many).
yagotme
(4,136 posts)like my enemy, who is about to bomb me. If I choose to stay, my reasons may very well be nefarious. You don't know, as you've never heard of me before. You don't know if I am a schoolteacher or a bomb maker. You have no way of knowing, and my bomb-making buddies will say "He was a quiet man, a peace loving man, who was bombed by those horrible people over there, yes, the ones we attacked and killed a couple of weeks ago, for no reason." See, this game is easy to play.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...all over your town telling you to leave!
Don't blame me for your refusal to obey!
yagotme
(4,136 posts)QUICK! PICK UP YOUR FAMILY AND LEAVE EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY FOR AN UNKNOWN DESTINATION RIGHT NOW!...
....
(Are you all settled into YOUR new place yet?)
An anonymous internet poster who I have no idea what they want, or if they're lying to me, sends me a message on an e-board. Not very convincing. Were those leaflets you dropped bilingual, and give a general direction to travel? The Gaza ones did...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...how else could I claim plausible deniability?
yagotme
(4,136 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)believe Israel should do to protect their citizens? Because despite how you try to paint this , it is not simply revenge. If Israel wanted nothing but revenge, there would be tens of thousands of Palestinians dead by now. Israel has the firepower to do it, and they wouldn’t have to be careful at all about where they fire.
Israel is the only country in the world that is held to the standard that they need to be more concerned about citizens of other areas than they are about their own. The only country in the world that is expected to endanger their own citizens in order to protect citizens of other areas.
So, what is YOUR suggestion as to how Israel should eliminate Hamas?
yagotme
(4,136 posts)line them up track to track, and just start rolling through Gaza. They're not doing that. I don't understand that some here just can't see the fact that Israel is taking it EASY on Gaza.
Response to AntivaxHunters (Reply #16)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...to assume every Palestinian supports hamas.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)To invade, so what do you suggest they do to protect themselves?
And please skip the platitudes about war is never the answer.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...only the hamas military aggressors that attacked Isreal?
LiberaBlueDem
(1,167 posts)Let Mossad take them out
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)But when Hamas hides among the citizens of Gaza, innocent people are going to die. It sucks, but Israel really has no choice.
You seem to think that Israel is purposely targeting only civilians, and that just isn’t true.
But you’re going to believe what you want to believe.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)Do NOT put words or meanings into my posts that I did NOT express.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Then what did you mean when you said
Because that certainly implies that Israel is targeting someone other than Hamas.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...and I did NOT write "don't target someone other than hamas".
You are either trying to manipulate my words to serve your own purpose or you have serious reading comprehension challenges.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)I literally copied and pasted it.
You said
That statement clearly implies that you believe Israel is targeting someone in addition to Hamas…if you don’t believe that, then why use that qualifier?
But since you seem to take offense at my interpretation of your words, then simply answer this: Do you believe Israel is targeting someone other than Hamas? And if you do, then who do you believe they’re targeting?
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)That statement does NOT imply Isreal is targeting someone in addition to Hamas.
It doesn't mention who Isreal is targeting at all.
My assumption is that Isreal is targeting a ground area which they know contains civilians and that they are not focusing on the specific locations of the guilty aggressors in order to deliberately avoid killing non-aggressor civilians.
My statement (that you quoted) implies only that Isreal should be targeting only the military aggressors that attacked Isreal (hey! That sounds familiar!)
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Unfortunately, since Hamas insists upon hiding amongst the innocent , there is no way to get them without killing innocent people too.
It’s sucks, but Israel has not only the right, but the obligation, to target Hamas. Even if that means innocents die because Hamas hides behind them. The alternative is to do nothing.
The blood of innocent Palestinians is on Hamas’ hands, not Israel’s.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...with modern technology we take out individual targets in crowds all the time.
xmas74
(30,089 posts)It has everything to do with antisemitism.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)They're protesting they're friends being bombed & dying
xmas74
(30,089 posts)Their antisemitism.
They have a long documented history.
sarisataka
(22,817 posts)Rallying for Israel two weeks ago? Or were these the ones cheering the deaths of Israelis and chanting "gas the Jews"?
Opinion can't turn when it was the same as it always has been. It has a lot to do with antisemitism.
EllieBC
(3,639 posts)the world supports their existence or that of Israel. We are pretty much used to support coming with plenty of conditions.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)A crowd of 15,000 in Paris is a speck.