Kristof: We Must Not Kill Gazan Children to Try to Protect Israel's Children

[BeyondGeography]

The crisis in the Middle East is a knotty test of our humanity, asking how to respond to a grotesque provocation for which there is no good remedy. And in this test, we in the West are not doing well. The acceptance of large-scale bombing of Gaza and of a ground invasion likely to begin soon suggests that Palestinian children are lesser victims, devalued by their association with Hamas and its history of terrorism. Consider that more than 1,500 children in Gaza have been killed, according to the Gaza Ministry of Health, and around one-third of Gaza homes have been destroyed or damaged in just two weeks — and this is merely the softening-up before what is expected to be a much bloodier ground invasion.

…The United States speaks a good deal about principles, but I fear that President Biden has embedded a hierarchy of human life in official American policy. He expressed outrage at the massacres of Jews by Hamas, as he should have, but he has struggled to be equally clear about valuing Gazan lives. And it’s not always evident whether he is standing four-square with Israel as a country or with its failed prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, a longtime obstacle to peace.

…In his speech on Thursday, Biden called for America to stand firmly behind Ukraine and Israel, two nations attacked by forces aiming to destroy them. Fair enough. But suppose Ukraine responded to Russian war crimes by laying siege to a Russian city, bombing it into dust and cutting off water and electricity while killing thousands and obliging doctors to operate on patients without anesthetic. I doubt we Americans would shrug and say: Well, Putin started it. Too bad about those Russian children, but they should have chosen somewhere else to be born.

…The best answer to this test is to try even in the face of provocation to cling to our values. That means that despite our biases, we try to uphold all lives as having equal value. If your ethics see some children as invaluable and others as disposable, that’s not moral clarity but moral myopia. We must not kill Gazan children to try to protect Israeli children.

More at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/opinion/israel-gaza-palestine-children.html?unlocked_article_code=1.40w.v7UG.4WZQwsV6xF_9&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[ColinC]

1. Half of DU: "ya we should"

[brooklynite]

5. And if Israel stops all military action today....what happens next?

[ColinC]

6. Is that the only option available?

[Happy Hoosier]

8. What are the alternatives?

Hamas has to go. They aren't going without a fight. Any suggestions?

[ColinC]

10. Stop killing children and committing war crimes

Why is it suddenly so difficult to fight an enemy within the bounds of international law and human rights?

[Happy Hoosier]

13. SUDDENLY!?

War sucks. It has ALWAYS sucked, and ESPECIALLY for civilians and kids.
My mom was a kid in Berlin in 1945. I heard ALL the stories about how war is hell, especially on kids.

You cannot possibly believe that civilian casualties are a new thing, ESPECIALLY in an urban fight.

The best you can do is to use precision munitions to ensure, insofar as one can that you hit what you intend to hit, and that you warn civilians to evacuate the areas where enemy combatants are operating.

There is no magic "kill only terrorists" button.

AND this is EXACTLY what Hamas wants. Hamas has embedded themselves in civilian areas and built tunnels and bunkers UNDER civilian structures to trigger moral outrage. It's apparently working. Now Israel is the bad guy despite this being PRECISELY what Hamas intended to trigger.

[ColinC]

15. It certainly is what they want

And they are overjoyed it is happening because we are only inviting further moral outrage in their favor. I don’t think it’s a good thing to play into their hands as easily as has happened.

[Happy Hoosier]

17. But again.... WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?

Allow them them to continue to operate? To daily lob rockets into Israel? To plan theuir NEXT incursion to kill over 1000 people, MOSTLY civilians?

Hamas has to go!

How does that get done without a fight?

Short answer: It doesn't. A fight is coming. We have to work to minimize the impact on civilians. And yes, that means pressuring Israel to create safe areas and to permit more aid.

But the destruction of Hamas as political power in Gaza is non-negotiable.

[ColinC]

19. Well certainly mudering people into oblivion with no end in sight

Is the only possibility?

Or, perhaps the diplomatic route that was being molded for the last several decades that was torpedoed out of existence once the extreme rigtht by came to power in Israel…

Believe it or not there are a million different routes that don’t include murdering each other indefinitely.

[brooklynite]

20. So if the two State solution was implemented immediately, Hamas would disarm? Take up farming?

Ans as much as Likud is equally to blame, name a Palestinian entity that recognized Israel's right to exist.

[ColinC]

21. Who said anything about a two state solution

I was thinking more along the lines of simply honoring the agreements that were already made and broken ad nauseam.

[brooklynite]

29. There was never an agreement with Hamas, and if there was one, Hamas broke it.

[LiberalFighter]

37. Really? Simply honoring the agreements already made? A lot of details missing. And thinking it is easy.

[ColinC]

60. It's certainly easier to bomb people into oblivion with no end in sight

So let’s just do the easy thing.

[brooklynite]

108. Is it your opinion that no military action can occur if there's potential for civilian casualties?

That would have put a real crimp in bringing down the Nazis and Japanese in WW2.

[PufPuf23]

112. Difference is to end WWII compared to avoiding WWIII.

[treestar]

70. Arafat did

at one point, anyway.

Ever notice that no other nation has to bang on about its "right to exist?" A nation exists because it does. It has to be able to do it without US help, too. It has to be able to exist on its own as an entity.

In modern times, like Ukraine, it could get help due to attack by another nation.

A terrorist group is not another nation and a terrorist group is unlikely to be able to end the existence of another nation. A terrorist group does not represent a nation either. That is what makes the question a lot more complex than people want it to be.

A terrorist group can be considered criminal, but finding and trying the criminals appears to be too difficult.

[radicalleft]

104. Here

ok...

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo#:~:text=Israel%20accepted%20the%20PLO%20as,right%20to%20exist%20in%20peace.

On September 13, 1993, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Negotiator Mahmoud Abbas signed a Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, commonly referred to as the “Oslo Accord,” at the White House. Israel accepted the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace. Both sides agreed that a Palestinian Authority (PA) would be established and assume governing responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five-year period. Then, permanent status talks on the issues of borders, refugees, and Jerusalem would be held. While President Bill Clinton’s administration played a limited role in bringing the Oslo Accord into being, it would invest vast amounts of time and resources in order to help Israel and the Palestinians implement the agreement. By the time Clinton left office, however, the peace process had run aground, and a new round of Israeli-Palestinian violence had begun.

SNIP

Oslo’s Collapse, 1996–2000

In November 1995, Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, an Israeli who opposed the Oslo Accords on religious grounds. Rabin’s murder was followed by a string of terrorist attacks by Hamas, which undermined support for the Labor Party in Israel’s May 1996 elections. New Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu hailed from the Likud Party, which had historically opposed Palestinian statehood and withdrawal from the occupied territories.

[Happy Hoosier]

32. Sure. And yet, you have NOTHING.

Negotiations with Hamas are off the table. After their incursion targeting and bruitally mirdering civilians, they cannot be permitted to continue in political power.

That is simply NOT a serious proposal.

[Chautauquas]

73. I think there's a good chance they WILL continue as a political power

If Israeli military does not succeed at destroying Hamas, what then? And who says negotiations with Hamas are off the table? That may be the case now but if the humanitarian crisis in the region continues to worsen negotiation could become a more likely prospect.

[Beastly Boy]

24. Having no doubt of Hamas' intentions, it is on us not to succumb to the

moral outrage they are anticipating.

A tough choice to make, for sure, but a necessary one. As ironic as it might sound, the future of Gaza and especially its children depends on it.

[keroro gunsou]

129. This is an honest question

From someone who needs information, not a troll…

Why aren’t the Arab nations who are in the area, who are nominally supportive of Israel, not trying to get Hamas to tone it down and try to do things with more diplomacy and fewer casualties? Hamas HAD. to know The current government would over react and I’m sorry, no moral outrage is worth the lives of kids.

I get that there are a number of countries and peoples who would love to see Israel wiped off of the map, but they are not going anywhere as history has shown. And honestly it’s better for everyone in the area if not everything is being blown to hell on a regular basis.

[Beastly Boy]

133. The Arab nations nominally supportive of Israel is a recent phenomenon.

Still, most of them are not interested in peace in the Middle east. Peace means a strong, even dominant Israel and a prosperous Palestine.

Allowing for a strong Israel would impede the ambitions of certain Arab states to dominate the region, and a prosperous Palestine would deprive those same states of the most powerful lever they have to keep Israel unstable.

[womanofthehills]

28. This is not 1945

Now we see thousands of images of dead & injured kids on our phones everyday. The whole world sees them - the whole world is marching against this evil.

Obviously- Netanyahu failed with the warning part.

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[Happy Hoosier]

33. Put the blame where it belongs.

HAMAS.

I won't click on a Twixxer link, 'cause fuck Elon Musk.

Hamas must go. In this case, THEY are the evil that must be excised.

It's shocking to me the number of supposed "progressives" who think we should just tolerate Hamas' bruitality, as if it were deserved.

You want the killing to end? Wish ferevently for Hamas' quick defeat.

[womanofthehills]

109. Well - if you click on the Twitter link

You will see we have a huge problem- Young Americans are marching in Pro Palestine rallies by the thousands in many major cities. It’s also worrisome when they include Biden’s name in their chants.

Reuters: Reuters/Ipsos poll

“Those under 40 were also less likely to back supporting Israel than were older Americans, a potentially worrisome sign for Israel, which has long counted on Washington for weapons aid and international diplomatic support. Some 20% of respondents under 40 backed supporting Israel, compared to 53% of older respondents.

The poll results illustrated a high level of concern among Americans over the plight of ordinary Palestinians in the Hamas-ruled territory of more than 2 million people.

Eighty-one percent of respondents agreed with a statement that "Israel should avoid killing civilians in its retaliatory strikes against Hamas," compared to 19% who disagreed.” https://www.reuters.com/world/americans-want-us-help-get-gaza-civilians-out-harms-way-reutersipsos-2023-10-16/

[treestar]

68. they aren't the bad guy

but the claim to be the good guy does not seem to float either.

The media does not report much on the settlements and restrictions on Palestinians and the day to day grind of indignities, since that's not as good for ratings. Thus nobody knows about all that.

Plus it is our problem to solve? The US always has to get entangled in it.

Reading about how much time Jimmy Carter put into it.

[brooklynite]

31. Killing civilians is not a violation of international law; TARGET civilians is.

If you have evidence that Israel has targeted civilians, please share it.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

55. Where is the proof that Israel isn't following the rules?

Killing civilians and kids, as terrible as that is, is not in itself a war crime. Targeting them is the car crime. The laws of war recognize that civilian casualties are inevitable. Especially when one side uses civilians as human shields.

[paleotn]

63. Straw man

Israel is doing all they can in that regard. Hamas must be destroyed as their prime objective is to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. There is no other alternative outside of far left fantasy land. Need to get a firm grip on the real world

[ColinC]

65. How do you destroy Hamas?

Do you honestly think they will be gone after more bombings and ground invasions? Even if the West Bank and Gaza were completely occupied by Israel, the indiscriminate killings by Israel create an unlimited recruitment pool for the extremist organizations running in the shadows. If history tells us anything, it is that you cannot kill an idea by simply killing more people.

[Beastly Boy]

74. The first step towards destroying Hamas is to take action against Hamas.

You appear to argue against taking this step. Do you honestly think Hamas would self-destruct without any action being taken?

Unless you have an affirmative course of action in mind to remedy the situation, lamenting it, however vocally, is meaningless.

[ColinC]

76. Hamas would cease to exist as soon as it has no reason to

West Bank incursions, further hostilities towards Palestinians and military action against it, give Hamas further reason to exist and empower its growth. Not vice versa. What you see as the “first step” towards getting rid of Hamas, I see as the next step towards empowering and expanding it through popular support. Or perhaps having it replaced through something even more monstrous.

[Beastly Boy]

78. Ant this is the core of the pronlem, isn't it?

Hamas articulated clearly and in writing that the reason for its existence is to destroy all of Israel. It is written in their charter, and it is being reiterated on a nearly daily basis, not just by their words, but by their actions.

Support for Hamas has never been popular, despite their claims to the contrary. There had been no elections in Gaza for at least seven years, and their financial and political support comes not from the people but from anti-Israel governments far away from Palestine who are interested not in the welfare of the Palestinians, but in the destruction of Israel. These countries have literally monetized martyrdom, and the only time support for Hamas gets elevated is when some prospects for peaceful settlement of the conflict emerges (in this case, the prospect of Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel).

[ColinC]

84. I think your description hits the core on both sides

Over the history of this conflict, one or both sides seems to have gotten the hope for peace assassinated (in 1996 almost literally when Rabin was killed), as soon as it appeared as a concrete possibility. The challenge is not letting those bloodlust sentiments take over when it is most attractive, and as humans it seems we fail at this task at almost every turn.

[Beastly Boy]

86. I don't understand.

Not that I disagree with the general principle, but I find it hard to relate it to Hamas or its far away sponsors. Neither of them had ever been a beacon of hope for peace. On the contrary, their opposition to peace had been clearly articulated and expressed in the course of many years.

[ColinC]

87. Hamas was only elected when the prospect for peace appeared unatainable

The elected representatives before them were clearly and vocally in pursuit of a peaceful solution.

When I say “both sides” I mean Israelis and Palestinians. Not Israel and Hamas only.

[Beastly Boy]

105. Ok, got it.

[Jedi Guy]

127. "West Bank incursions... give Hamas further reason to exist and empower its growth."

No. Israel's mere existence gives Hamas reason to exist, because their stated reason to exist is to make Israel cease to exist. As long as the State of Israel exists, Hamas has a reason to exist and will continue its aggression against Israel and primarily Israeli civilians.

Therefore, negotiation and peaceful coexistence with Hamas is impossible. Israel can't negotiate away its very existence, it can't half-exist. Therefore, Hamas has to be destroyed.

It's pretty straightforward, honestly.

[paleotn]

99. All they need is a hug.

[paleotn]

100. Maybe they just need a hug

[ColinC]

103. Nah I think bombing children and making the rest orphans hellbent at revenge is the best way about it

[paleotn]

111. Israel isn't killing children on purpose. Hamas has that covered.

Or is that part of the nuance beyond your comprehension? Is it intentional?

[ColinC]

115. You really believe that? Who told you this? Netanyahu?

[paleotn]

113. Kinetics, my dear. The liberal use of kinetics.

You certainly don't eliminate them by coddling and solutions straight from fucking fairy land. Get a grip on reality, will you.

[inthewind21]

122. Easy

Same way the US, after 20 years of war, countless dead and trillions spent destroyed Al Queda! DUH!!!! Oh wait...

[ColinC]

134. Perhaps if we engage Hamas for 30 years, it will work!

[SickOfTheOnePct]

101. The only side committing war crimes

Is Hamas

[Zeitghost]

119. Suddenly???

When was the last war fought without innocents being killed?

Should we have stopped bombing Nazi Germany to save German children?

[jimfields33]

130. Hamas certainly has done war crimes. They need to be held accountable for once.

[LiberalArkie]

62. Really simple.. Bibi just call in US B-52's and carpet bomb Gaza (like Viet Nam)

Problem with Hamas is over and no Gaza's to grow up and hate the Israelis. And the side? benefit of beachfront condos where Gaza used to be. A win / Win/

Or as they should have done years ago, stop forcing Palestinians out of their homes so that settlers can move in, thus guaranteeing that more terrorists would be created.

[Think. Again.]

106. hamas is an ideology...

...that, yes, has to go.

But killing an ideology is much different than killing people.

Maga has to go, how do you propose we kill it?

[treestar]

67. talks somewhere

are there any other choices?

There are no other choices?

Only flattening Gaza will work. Hamas has been around for a long time, still not destroyed, though in 2006 they also attacked, and weren't destroyed them.

This can end in another cease fire as in 2006, until the next time.

[womanofthehills]

107. And if Israel continues military action

What is their plan?

[Happy Hoosier]

7. Nonsense.

I'm all open to alternatives to taking Hamas out militarily.

I've not heard a single practical alternative.

[ColinC]

9. Not sure why "stop killing children" is wildly impractical

[Happy Hoosier]

14. My guess is you've never been involed in an urban war...

.... where the enemy deliberately shields itself behind children.

[ColinC]

18. When will it be enough?

Israel is not going to be able to practically overwhelm Hamas out of existence with military force alone: that much is clear to everybody. Yet the consequences of killing innocents exponentially continues.

To what extent will attacking Hamas and killing innocents be enough? Hamas will never stop, we know this. So does that mean we should also never stop -despite the human cost we know is perpetuated?


If only there were some kind of diplomatic solution decades in the making that could have prevented all of this which Israel has repeatedly rejected? 🤔

[Happy Hoosier]

22. Dude... read a book!

The Israeli Jews ACCEPTED the UN partition that would have split what is modern Israel roughly in half. It was the Palestinians who rejected it. Jorban annexed the West bank and Egypt annexed Gaza after the 47/48 war. They COULD have created a Palestinian state right then. But they didn't.

It was the ARAB states that allowed the Fedeyeen guerillas to operate from their territory during the 50's and 60's.

It was the ARAB States who launched the Six Day War in 1967. They lost.

They then issued the "Khartoum Resolution" in which they declared:
no peace with Israel,
no recognition of Israel,
no negotiations with it

Egypt and Syrian Launch the Yom Kippur War in 1973... a surprise attack on Yom Kippur. They lost.

So tell me again how this is all Israel's fault.

[ColinC]

23. Israel broke the Oslo accords. And then expanded on the west bank

Violating international law ad nauseam. But I guess anything that happened after the 70s doesn’t count?

[Happy Hoosier]

30. Sigh....

Yes, Israel has done some bad shit. And I've been critical of it (sometimes VERY critical of it), but I'm getting pretty sick of the "Israel's fault!!!" narrative of some who seem to ignore the DECADES of dedicated efforts to wipe Israel off the map, and the attnedant slaught of Jews that would entail. It happened TIME and TIME again. Is it any surpise that after 25+ years of that later generations would harden their hearts? I mean, once your enemies declare "no peace, no regognitio, and no negotiations!" where do you go? And still... Israel tried, even succeeded at times. They have formal peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. They were about to have a formal agreement with Saudi Arabia, which was probably a trigger for this disaster.

There is a long and bloody history here. There is no one bad guy here.

But THIS latest conflagration is Hamas' fault. That is completely clear, and Hamas must go.

[ColinC]

64. Where will Hamas go exactly?

They are an extremist organization who exist on an ideological basis. An ideology expanded through emotion using the seemingly inexcusable actions of a belligerent and hegemonic military. Even if you kill every current member of Hamas, the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in the process create an infinite recruitment pool of the bereaved children whose parents were killed in the indiscriminate bombings by Israel.

There is no getting rid of Hamas through war. But you may see their support skyrocket, and recruitment levels soar. For every Hamas member killed, they will gain 5 off of the thousands of innocents killed along with them.

[Celerity]

35. There are some here who claim the West Bank settlements are not illegal, and even more ludicrously, that not a single Palestinian has ever been displaced by modern (1948 and on) Israel.

It is not possible, at the end of the day, to have a good faith discussion about possible solutions with people who refuse to give up those utter falsehoods.

The whole 'line the bulldozers up a thousand-wide and push Gaza in to the sea' calls for what is open genocide is one of the fruits (dined on by the truly extreme) of those false stances.

[LiberalFighter]

40. You don't think it is wildly impractical?

If it wasn't wildly impractical Hamas would be gone already.
If you have a way to do it then why don't you go there and make it happen?

[onecaliberal]

102. Brown children. It's always been okay with way too many people.

[jimfields33]

132. We're talking Israel but there are two wars going on.

Children seem to be absent in the Ukraine and Russia situation. Even you admit it with the broad brush you made. Weird.

[Beastly Boy]

2. But we absolutely must kill Hamas terrorists to try to protect Gazan children.

Hamas cowards are putting their lives in danger, and we must never forget this.

[MyMission]

57. About those children

Who my heart goes out to....

Why are there so many? Because they are being bred and raised and radicalized as the next generation of fighters. They are pawns. Not all, but far too many.

I am not saying they should or deserve to be killed. I am saying that many of them are expendable to Hamas, who use them as shields. They hide themselves and their weapons (in tunnels under and) in schools, hospitals, mosques, apartment buildings, community centers.

Hamas has NO compassion and NO humanity.
The aid they've received over the years has not been used improve the Gazan's quality of life, but rather to acquire weapons of destruction, in order to attack Israel.

Their children are hostages as much as the ones taken from Israel. My heart goes out to them.

But... these terrorists are hiding behind civilians and children, who become collateral damage. Win win for Hamas. People are outraged and blame Israel. Hamas doesn't care about them or they wouldn't use them as shields.

Hamas is a terrorist organization! They are ultimately responsible for creating the terror and putting their citizens, especially their children, in harms way.

[malaise]

3. Moral clarity?

What’s that again?

Sadly, there has always been a hierarchy of human life in Western policy.

This is MUST READ
Thanks for posting.

[elias7]

4. First, I would not take the Gazans word for anything, given the recent lies about the hospital

Second, the assumption the Israelis are bombing Gaza city randomly and indiscriminately is to not even seek anyone who knows anything about the IDF as a source for a false equivalency or comparison to. Ukraine hypothetical. Third, to continually distinguish Hamas (as perpetrators) from the Gazan people (as victims) seems disingenuous to me.

Finally, what would Kristof suggest Israel do? I have watched (first the PLO starting in 1964) a series of proactive terror attacks from the various terror orgs operating in Gaza, Lebanon, etc. over my lifetime and although this is the worst by far, it is not unusual to Jews or Israelis. But now, Israelis feel the govt has failed to protect them, as in an Existential moment. Being humane in response yet still seeking peace for 75 years (though many somewhat new to the conflict would debate this) has led to nothing but ongoing hatred and condemnation for civil rights abuses. But the children…

[IronLionZion]

11. Plenty refuse to make any distinction between Hamas and innocent people/children

who had no choice in any of this. They were just unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place and can't leave.

Same with Hamas refusing any distinction between Israeli civilians and their government.

I just want the killing to stop.

[ColinC]

12. I think it's strange that folks are holding their moral standards to that of Hamas

“Well Hamas is doing it so we have no choice not to” kinda thing.

[IronLionZion]

16. They have plenty of choices

People living in Gaza would have far fewer choices and nobody should use terrorist groups as a moral standard. Bombings don't magically become less terrorizing when it's a military doing it.

[Beastly Boy]

38. What are the choices when hamas hides among civilians?

And why use false equivalencies to obscure the available choices?

Hamas is not being used as a moral standard. There is a world of difference between deliberately targeting civilians and taking measures to reduce civilian casualties when they become inevitable.

And yes, if you don't think civilian casualties are inevitable, it is on you to suggest a more humane solution. Ask yourself: who is in the best position to avoid civilian casualties, Hamas or IDF? And this is not a moral equivalency issues, it is a question of accurately assessing moral standards and obligations. If your assessment is lopsided, so will be your views on morality.

[IronLionZion]

46. Innocent civilians are stuck between Hamas, IDF, a fortified border wall, and the sea

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2023, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Gaza is among the worst places in the world to be born. They don't have much choice in what's happening to them. There are Palestinian Muslims who hold Israeli citizenship, or Jordanian citizenship, and can live somewhat normal lives. The ones in Gaza are completely screwed out of that possibility with no hope of changing it.

The last election in Gaza was 17 years ago. Anyone 35 or younger today has never voted for Hamas.

I'd like to see an option for peaceful non-Hamas Palestinians to gain citizenship of Israel, Egypt, an Independent Palestine, or anywhere instead of the status quo. Being trapped behind a walled in area with restricted movement and limited opportunities for employment or social services. Terrorism would be a much less appealing career choice if there were better choices available.

[Beastly Boy]

71. There are no options available for the Gazans as long as hamas is in Gaza.

Hamas, along with Islamic Jihad, Al Quds, and scores of smaller terrorist groups, is certain to quash all of them, and they don't care how many Gazans get killed in the process. This is the undeniable truth that controls events in Gaza.

Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Israel (along with all other non-adjacent Muslim countries) are all on record in refusing to take in Gazans, let alone give them legal residence.

Israel, however unfairly it might seem, is alone in making tough decision to do something about it instead of just talking about it. The alternative of doing nothing is far more devastating than the consequences of the Gaza war.

We live in a cruel world. Mere acknowledgement of this fact and appeals for mercy, however sincere, will do nothing to make it change for the better.

[EndlessWire]

75. Are you kidding?

Hamas et al started shelling on day one and haven't stopped. Do you honestly expect that Israel should not respond when continuously attacked? This is nonsense. There is no nation on Earth that would not fight back. That's what you are advocating.

It's interesting that just because Israel is capable of teaching Hamas serious lessons, they have become the alleged instigators. Lesson Number One: When starting a war, don't choose someone who is totally capable of kicking your ass.

Hamas planned for this. That's why they took hostages. They certainly don't intend to ask for a ransom. And, they regard their whole population as hostages. You know this is true. Else, why would they have instructed their population to stay in the combat zone? It is because they don't want their human shield to disappear. And, your solution is...?

[ColinC]

77. Hamas was elected due to the 2006 incursion into the west bank

They were a response to broken treaties and war crimes. Not vice versa

[EndlessWire]

81. So, this justifies butchering

noncombatants in hideous ways? I don't know any human being who could live with themselves after burning a child to death deliberately in an act of rage. What thing does that?

It's a long time from 2006. The excuse that Hamas is justified in any way whatsoever for nonhuman acts of barbarity doesn't cut it. I don't care that Israel built some dwellings on Palestinian land. I don't know why they thought they could do it. But you don't tie a mother and child together and burn them alive to get even. Not if you want the world sympathetic to your cause. How stupid of all of Gaza. They elect monsters, and then complain when Israel is forced to eliminate them. There are probably Palestinians who welcome the end of Hamas, at a desperate price. But, the longing for peace has to outweigh the hatred.

They do not have to love Jews. But, there is no place in the modern world for this aggravated murder.

If you have a current hour suggestion of how to get rid of Hamas and free the Palestinians from their murderous rule, please post it. I think that nothing will do it but a block by block search for the guilty, as grim as that will be. BUT, HAMAS HAS GOT TO GO.

[ColinC]

82. Your entire comment is MY argument

Nobody is justified in butchering anybody. Not Israel before Hamas was elected, not Hamas after it was elected, and not Israel or Hamas now.

Your previous comment was that Hamas started shelling from day one. This is simply not true. Hamas was not elected when the first unprovoked attacks on the Palestinians took place.

[EndlessWire]

85. Don't call me a liar.

There is simply no justification whatsoever for the shameless murder of babies, their parents and families. None whatsoever for raping women or hostage abduction.

If you want to justify it by proclaiming one long, continuous decades old combat between opponents as justifying it, well, good luck. The date of October 7th is the date that a peaceful music festival was attacked, people murdered, atrocities committed.

You're basically trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to blame Israel for protecting itself, and framing it in such a way as to absolve Hamas because gosh, the Palestinians are innocent. Well, maybe their government shouldn't have counted on the Arab world to back them up. Maybe they shouldn't have started a war that no one wants a part of.

NOBODY wants to see any civilian harmed. But, I would suggest that continuing to hold hostages and launching missiles is a poor way to signal your desire to discuss the matter.

[ColinC]

88. This is confusing.

I have not justified brutality or killing. I am only saying neither side is justified in doing so. I don’t understand how I haven’t made that clear.

[The Magistrate]

95. This Is A Lot Simpler Than You Try And Make It, Sir

Party 'A' commits a grotesque atrocity against people in Country B.

Country B attempts to vindicate its duty to its citizenry by taking military action against Party A.

Bystanders denounce Country B for doing so, either on points of style or morality, sometimes even demanding Country B and its citizenry perform as saints unmoved by human emotions in the face of atrocity..

Bystanders doing this are, in effect, giving Party A free pass to commit atrocities, by refusing to sanction military action aimed at ending any future atrocities by Party A.

Observing this makes bystanders so engaged uncomfortable, but people insisting on Party A having free rein to commit atrocities against people in Country B probably ought to feel ill at ease. Because they know they are engaged in moral imbecility, however hard they work to hide their knowledge this is so from themselves.

[ColinC]

96. There is little justification for atrocities by party A

That seems to be more of the case with those who have always justified the atrocities of part B, if -as I might assume, party B is Israel, who violated the Oslo accords in the first place with their incursions on the West Bank and used the election of Hamas (party A’s attempt to defend itself with military action -even if ill conceived), to commit further atrocities on an incremental basis until another retaliatory attack caused Israel to justify a full scale atrocious attack on the civilian population of Gaza.

It is fairly simple, but not in the way you present it. Escalatory violence is nothing more than escalatory violence regardless of how the party’s supporting the violence, frame it.

[The Magistrate]

97. Atrocity Is Atrocity, Sir

It does not compare to anything else. It is not justified by anything.

You make a ludicrous spectacle with this continued effort.

[ColinC]

98. You realize I am the only one saying nobody should kill anybody, right?

Atrocity is atrocity. You are the one justifying Israel’s insane escalatory violation of human rights through massive violence, by somehow framing it as the only way not to tolerate atrocity. Your entire argument appears to be projection, and war in your mind seems to be peace. Fairly strange.

[brooklynite]

116. "Nobody should kill anybody" followed by calling out Israel and not Hamas. Do you perhaps see the problem?

If nobody killed anybody in Gaza starting now, how would you resolve the current issue?

[ColinC]

117. Israel has killed at least 3 times more people than Hamas

3 times more innocents. And they are not stopping the bloodshed. Do you see the problem here?

I have called out Hamas in many ways -they are undoubtedly an horrible terrorist organization. But to ignore state-sponsored terrorism only when it suits a narrative is abhorrent. Surely you can see this?

Why is violence only bad when a government isn’t doing it? If Hamas killed 4000 people you would be up in arms calling for even more bloodshed against Palestinians than you are right now, but your double standard is blindingly obvious: if a government does it, it is okay.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2023/sparing-civilian-lives-in-gaza.html#:~:text=So%20far%2C%20more%20than%201%2C400,killed%20in%20the%20latest%20conflict.

[EX500rider]

120. You have no idea how many civilians Vs Hamas fighters have died

Unless you think a terrorist group be beyond telling lies to score PR points and put pressure on Israel to ceasefire.

[ColinC]

124. Same with you

Unless you think a corrupt extremist right wing government that boasted about keeping hamas in power to avoid a Palestinian state is beyond telling lies….

[EX500rider]

125. I haven't seen the IDF issue any figures

[inthewind21]

128. Funny

how extremist right wing government in Israel is viewed VERY VERY differently than the one right here in American huh. Trump and Republicans evil, Bibi, golden!

[inthewind21]

123. Huh

This sounds familiar. Now where have I heard it? "They elect monsters, and then complain"

[617Blue]

25. Who's "We"?

The USA does not control the IDF.

[ColinC]

26. Just the vast majority of their weapons which we do not have to provide

But do anyways despite knowing what they are used for

[yagotme]

39. Like the missiles for the Iron Dome defense?

The missiles that are protecting Israel from Palestinian missiles? That they fire, indiscriminately, nearly every day? At civilian targets? Those weapons? What would Israel be like without Iron Dome?

[ColinC]

48. Like the mortar shells that rip apart cchildren's flesh

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/08/1016082

[yagotme]

50. Well, then we need to tell Hamas to stop firing missiles, so Israel won't have to drop bombs.

There I solved the whole thing...

[IronLionZion]

47. IDF would have a hard time without US support

USA might be the only country who can influence IDF and Israeli policy towards Palestinians.

[Lurker Deluxe]

34. So ...

All Russia needs to do is put children in car seats on the back of the tanks that are getting blowed the fuck up and within a couple of weeks the world will start crying every time a tank gets popped.

WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!

[BeyondGeography]

36. The comparison is with Russian cities not Russian tanks

Try harder.

[yagotme]

41. Hamas is using civilians to shield their militants.

A close similarity.

[BeyondGeography]

42. When you look at Gaza and all you see is Hamas and human shields for Hamas

You can justify most anything, right?

[yagotme]

44. Can you justify what Hamas has done? nt

[BeyondGeography]

49. No...can you justify this?

Doctors, poets, families, babies: victims of Israel’s war on Gaza

Information coming out of Gaza – which is under siege – is hard to verify, but below are some of the names and stories of people reported to have been killed.

Besan Helasa
The 19-year-old medicine student was killed at her home, alongside her mother, older sister Marah and brother Omar. “I have dreams that I have not yet achieved. I have a life I have not yet-fully lived. I have a family that I love and fear for,” she wrote on X (formerly Twitter) days before her death. “Me and my people are subjugated, persecuted, killed, and tortured in an open-air prison.”

Al-Shaima Saidam and family
Saidam was killed with members of her family when missiles hit the al-Nuseirat refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. In July she celebrated being Palestine’s top high schooler, after she earned a 99.6% average in Palestine’s general secondary education examination.

Heba Zaqout
The 39-year-old visual artist and school teacher was killed alongside her two small sons, Adam and Mahmoud, during a missile strike on 13 October. She was the sole breadwinner of her family and is survived by her husband and two children. In her artworks she explored daily Palestinian life and heritage.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/doctors-poets-families-babies-victims-of-israels-war-on-gaza?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[yagotme]

51. Sure.

Back the clock up a couple of weeks. Stop the Hamas attack on Israel, you know, the one that targeted civilians and BABIES!!!! Stop Hamas' actions, then I be you'll find out Israel will stop theirs, too. Israel cares more about world opinion/bombing civilians than Hamas does. Remember, when did Israel actually start this heavy bombing campaign? 2 weeks ago. Seems a pivotal time, wouldn't you say?

[BeyondGeography]

58. What a sad response

This war has been going on for 17 years. Nothing is happening now that hasn’t happened many times over since Operation Cast Lead in 2009. The difference is awareness has increased exponentially and, if you look at reactions around the world, not to the benefit of Israel or the United States for that matter.

[yagotme]

59. This particular piece of property has been fought over for the last 5,000+ years.

How far back do you want to go??? I was just highlighting CURRENT events. The Hamas attack 2 weeks ago re-lit a "hot" war. THEY were the instigators. Unless, of course, you have some proof otherwise...

[cayugafalls]

43. History is littered with the bones of innocents...leaders choosing war and violence over peace

Has always resulted in the death and destruction of innocent people.

"we, the people" really don't matter in the grand scheme...our 'leaders' decide when to fight...and how to fight.

Just my sad and very humble opine...

[Mossfern]

45. There are some very naive people posting here

Those who are bemoaning Palestinian child endangerment and loss because of Israel's response, please provide a solution to the issue, keeping in mind that Palestinians do not want Israel (or Jews) to exist at all.

What would you have Israel do considering the slogan of Palestinians: "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

How does Israel negotiate with a people who don't recognize Israel's existence.
Please no reference to the settlements - that's another issue altogether.

Do you think that butchering and burning alive civilians and children is an appropriate form of protest?
Do you think that if Israel does nothing that there will not more of the atrocities performed by Hamas?

Please provide a workable resolution in order to save all children and civilians.

[GuppyGal]

52. This is utter bullshit and most certainly not what Democrats represent which Joe Biden is one.

So fuck off all y'all pundits who say we care about this life more than that life.

HOW ABOUT YOU DON'T START SHIT THERE WON'T BE SHIT
And now Israel is the bad guy because they are being FORCED to do what they gotta do.

We don't care about the kids...pffffffffffffft

[GuppyGal]

53. We must not kidnap Israeli children in order to further our terrorist agenda.

How about that Bill?????????????

[jaxexpat]

54. It is the crossroads of vengeance and justice.

What western nation will be brave enough to condemn the overreaction? It will be a short list because democracy is being threatened by fascism in nearly every corner and the elections dictate their morality as it does their majority.

[yagotme]

89. Which overreaction are you referring to?

Hamas killing unarmed civilians due to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, or Israel bulldozing Gaza into the sea (which hasn't happened). We, as a nation, are condemning Hamas for their attack, do you think Israel needs condemning for their action? As far as I can tell, they are trying to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. Hamas, not so much...

[jaxexpat]

118. There is no justification because there is no justice being sought.

I recall very clearly news of the 1967 war, it was not too much of a surprise or unexpected even then. The modern state of Israel was born in bloodshed and every decade or so bloodshed is revisited. It is tribal warfare made all the more horrendous because it is sometimes masked in the dogmatic terms of a religious war.

The unacknowledged nexus of this passionately fought affair is that Jews and Moslems have a common ancestor with whom God made a covenant over 4000 years ago, so the old texts read. God gave Abraham the Levant to be the homeland for all his children, forever. Since the warring parties can both legitimately claim the inheritance, this is a squabble between siblings who have lost sight of their brotherhood. They've definitely lost sight of justice and at this stage they have no trust for each other's words, basic terms without which peace cannot be made.

The whole thing is about the unattainable balance which dwells in hearts filled with pain and anger, vengeance. Americans need to walk away from vengeance. Looking under almost every rock and we have causes for tribal grievance and calls to anger and vengeance disguised as reparation or "correcting" the mistakes of the past.

There is, of course, the part of the arms merchants to be played out here as well. Regarding that, we have carriers and task forces keeping close attention to the score. These are real concerns and Putin and China have already encouraged and coopted quite enough of the Middle East's turmoil for their own purposes.

Still, it is not helpful that Americans, in their naivete and peculiar tendency toward knee-jerk, self-assured opinions, are unable to assess this situation without choosing sides. Ultimately, the only result of condemnation, demonization and dehumanization of either side is that it helps facilitate the ease with which a society degenerates into supporting genocide. We Americans have allowed our whole concept of a foreign policy based on our national interests to carve out an exception for nearly every rule when it concerns Israel. I'm quite sure that's because our nation's "Christians" feel that they are owed a share of the inheritance.

What could go wrong?

[yagotme]

121. Are you saying that the response of Israel due to being attacked,cannot be justified, because of ancient history?

The surprise attack, killing innocent civilians, babies killed in horrible ways, murders livestreamed on the internet, hostages taken, rockets STILL being fired indiscriminately, doesn't deserve a response from Israel? You don't have to "take sides" to agree that Hamas has committed a war crime here. NOT seeing this, I don't know what to say. Yes, I have an understanding of the ancient background of each side, but where in Israel's charter does it say that the Palestinians need to be removed from the face of the earth?

[jaxexpat]

135. No, you said that.

[yagotme]

136. Well, that's the vibe I get from what you said.

(T)his is a squabble between siblings who have lost sight of their brotherhood. They've definitely lost sight of justice and at this stage they have no trust for each other's words, basic terms without which peace cannot be made.

Just trying to simplify the extended history lesson into a single thought. So, Israel can't make peace, because, they can't. How's that concept working for the rest of the ME? Seems Israel is accepting peace agreements from other nations in the area, so why not Palestine/Hamas? Oh, that particular group doesn't WANT peace. Or so they've said/written...

[twodogsbarking]

56. Our news is slanted. Keep that in mind.

[leftstreet]

61. DURec

[treestar]

66. That quote of Jimmy Carter

We can't live in peace by killing each other's children.

He worked long and hard on this conflict. It does not seem to improve.

A similar thing occurred in 2006:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Gaza_cross-border_raid#:~:text=The%202006%20Gaza%20cross%2Dborder,Crossing%20through%20an%20attack%20tunnel.

[ColinC]

69. And in 2007 Hamas was elected

I fear what new monster will come from this new wave of death and destruction at the hands of Israel.

[treestar]

72. Yes. Then more clamping down

makes the daily life in Gaza more intensely difficult, and Hamas does things that are helpful, making it harder to simply say "they elected terrorists, so they are terrorist and they can their children deserve death."

[Bettie]

79. People without hope

will cling to anyone who offers them even a tiny bit of it.

There isn't a lot of hope in Gaza and the tiny flicker some might have had is not likely to survive.

Then again, I rather expect that by the end of this, there won't be a need for hope, because there will be no one left to hope or despair.

And the leaders of HAMAS will still live in their luxury homes in other nations.

[Beastly Boy]

80. And that quote of Golda Meir

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

[BlueCheeseAgain]

83. Kristof's column is a longer version of the dilemma faced by moral people.

I think most people would agree with the following:

1. Hamas is an evil organization and Israel is justified in wanting to destroy it.
2. It is wrong to kill innocent civilians.
3. Hamas cannot be destroyed without killing a lot of innocent civilians.

As Kristof himself says, "there is no good remedy." He doesn't propose an alternative path for getting rid of Hamas without violence, because there isn't one. He basically says that Israel should more or less just live with Hamas next door. Which is certainly fair for him to propose, but not something that Israel is willing to do right now.

[yagotme]

90. Hard to "live" with someone next door,

that is LITERALLY wanting/trying to kill you.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

91. A lot of the folks calling for a cease-fire basically seem to say that, though.

They think the answer is better walls, better security, and better intelligence. Just accept that there's a genocidal terrorist group next door that wants to kill you, and try to prevent them from doing so.

[yagotme]

92. Yeah, they want a cease fire, on Israel's part.

None of them have stated how they are going to get Hamas to stop firing. I've asked, too.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

93. All the responses are what not to do.

E.g., "Well, how about don't carpet bomb innocent civilians."

Which I agree, is a completely admirable sentiment. But that isn't an answer.

I honestly don't know what I would do either. There is no way of getting rid of Hamas without putting civilians in harm's way. So either you expose your own civilians to the continued threat of what happened on October 7, or you kill civilians on the other side. It's a problem with no good solution.

[yagotme]

94. I agree.

Too many think they can wave a wand, though, and "peace" will appear.

[brooklynite]

110. Observation: nobody writes that the Hamas Government should surrender its terrorists and release its hostages

That would accomplish the same thing, but apparently putting all the blame on Israel is more popular.

[Straw Man]

114. There is no such thing as a humane war.

There are only varying degrees of horror. If the Allies hadn't been willing to inflict civilian casualties, the Axis could have won the Second World War. Then Hitler's attempted annihilation of the Jewish people would have been completed.

Hamas is attempting to pick up where Hitler left off. Should they be allowed to continue?

[John Shaft]

126. My heart weeps for the children, the elderly, and the pets

n/t

[Mike Nelson]

131. I think "we" means people of the US...

... and I agree children of ALL ages should not be targeted. I also believe no minor child should be considered "at war." However, I don't think Hamas and other terrorist groups agree with me. Minor children are their tools... many have died already, and many more will die. Israel will be indirectly "responsible" for some of the deaths. And, the US will "contribute," through supplies and intelligence... I'm not sure how it can be stopped. Just do nothing and let Hamas kill everyone they don't like? Israel will go in and target the terrorists, not minor children. The terrorists make children the target.