Developing World Sees Double Standard in West's Actions in Gaza and Ukraine

[Celerity]

Resentments are complicating calls by the Biden administration to rally the world against efforts to “annihilate” democracies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/us/ukraine-gaza-global-south-hypocrisy.html

https://archive.ph/LLaOj

Damage from Israeli airstrikes in the southern Gaza Strip last week. While Washington has vehemently criticized Russia for attacks on civilians in Ukraine, critics say it has expressed little about similar suffering in Gaza.Credit...Yousef Masoud for The New York Times

For 20 months, the Biden administration has attempted to stake out the moral high ground against Russia, condemning its brutal war on Ukraine for indiscriminately killing civilians. The argument resonated in much of the West, but less so in other parts of the world, which viewed the war as more of a great-power conflict and declined to participate in sanctions or otherwise isolate Russia.

Now, as Israel bombards the Gaza Strip, killing more than 4,300 people since Oct. 7, the Biden administration’s unwavering support risks creating new headwinds in its efforts to win over global public opinion. Speaking from the Oval Office on Thursday, President Biden tied American support for Ukraine and Israel together, describing both nations as democracies fighting enemies determined to “completely annihilate” them. Russia invaded and seeks to annex Ukraine, while Hamas, the group that controls Gaza and denies Israel’s right to exist, staged a terrorist attack that killed at least 1,400 people in southern Israel.

But Israel’s counterattack on Gaza, its threats to mount a ground invasion and America’s tight embrace of its most important Mideast ally, regardless, have prompted cries of hypocrisy. Such accusations are not exactly new in the Middle East conflict. But the dynamics of the dual crises have gone beyond Washington’s desire to rally global support to isolate and punish Russia for invading its neighbor.

Increasingly, the Middle East region is emerging as a renewed front in the struggle for influence in the Global South — the collective name for the developing nations of Africa, Asia and Latin America — pitting the West against Russia and China. “The war in the Middle East will drive a growing wedge between the West and countries like Brazil or Indonesia, key swing states of the Global South,” said Clifford Kupchan, chairman of the Eurasia Group, a New York-based risk assessment organization. “That will make international cooperation on Ukraine, like sanctions enforcement on Russia, even harder.”

snip

President Biden repeatedly linked the wars in Ukraine and Gaza during a rare prime-time address from the Oval Office on Thursday.Credit...Tom Brenner for The New York Times

Tents in Khan Younis, south of Gaza City, for Palestinians displaced by bombing. Credit...Samar Abu Elouf for The New York Times

Searching for victims after a Russian missile strike in the Kharkiv region in Ukraine. Some critics believe the West is treating the Ukrainian war as a special case because it is being fought in Europe.Credit...David Guttenfelder for The New York Times

[TigressDem]

1. We support allies defending their democracies after being attacked.

HOWEVER, Ukraine is a young democracy, 30 years away from Russia. AND they do not have any history of armed conflict prior to Russia's assault. It's easier to defend the way they are fighting back, and they have less resources than Israel.

Israel has been around a long time and this conflict is VERY old.

If Mexico or Canada initiated an all out military strike on US soil, we would reply dramatically. HOPEFULLY trying to minimize civilian casualties.

But in both of these cases the fact remains, outside forces are coming on to the soil of established democracies and started bombing and are getting bombed in return. War sucks.

[Celerity]

4. Israel, the modern nation state is very young, only around since 1948. If you go back just 100 years there were only around 84,000 Jews there, 140 years ago only 24,000

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present






^The British mandate for Palestine, which began in 1922, ended prior to Israel’s declaration of independence on May 14, 1948. The Arab states invaded, and following the war, Palestine ceased to exist. The figures for 1948 are for the State of Israel. The figures prior to 1970 do not include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, or the Golan Heights, which were occupied by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, respectively. From 1970, the figures only include citizens of Israel and not Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

*As of September 14, 2023

Sources: Israel Central Bureau of Statistics.
Israel in the Middle East: Documents and Readings on Society, Politics, and Foreign Relations, Pre-1948 to the Present, Ed. by Itamar Rabinovich and Jehuda Reinharz, Brandeis University Press, Waltham, Mass., 2008. (pp. 571-572).
Berman Jewish Data Bank.
“Israel’s population 8.972m on eve of 2019,” Globus, (December 31, 2018).
Zeev Klein, “Israel reaches another milestone as population crosses 9 million,” Israel Hayom, (May 2, 2019).
“Israel’s population tops 9 million, including 45% of world Jewry,” Times of Israel, (May 6, 2019).
Eytan Halon,” Israeli Population To Soar To 15.2 Million By 100th Anniversary,” Jerusalem Post, (May 7, 2019).
Gad Lior, “Independence Day 2019 – a party for more than 9 million Israelis,” Ynet, (May 8, 2019).
“Jewish Population in the World and in Israel,” Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics Table 2.11.
“Israel’s population tops 9 million as Jewish new year approaches,” Times of Israel, (September 26, 2019).
“Israel’s population at 9,136,000 on the eve of 2020,” Jerusalem Post, (January 1, 2020).
“Ahead of 72nd Independence Day, Israeli population stands at 9.2 million,” Times of Israel, (April 26, 2020).
Della Pergola Demography in Israel. Brazil lecture 5 in Sylvia Maier, “Demographic Trends in Israel in the Arab and Jewish Populations: Possible Policy Implications,” Master’s Thesis, MS Global Affairs-NYU Center for Global Affairs, (Spring 2010).
“Israel’s population up to 9.25 million, though growth rate, immigration down,” Times of Israel, (September 16, 2020).
Moshe Cohen, “Jewish population at lowest percentage since founding of Israel,” Jerusalem Post, (April 12, 2021).
Ofer Aderet, “On Jewish New Year’s Eve, Israel's Population Reaches 9.4 Million,” Haaretz, (September 5, 2021).
“Israel’s population approaches 9.7 million as 2022 comes to an end,” Times of Israel, (December 29, 2022).
“Israeli population rises to 9.795 million on Rosh Hashanah eve,” Times of Israel, (September 14, 2023).

[TigressDem]

5. Yes, the Israel/Palestine conflict goes back to 1947

However, Jerusalem has been fought over even before Biblical times. It has been under Jewish rule 3 times prior to 1947.

"The Holy City" where Jesus was born, Bethlehem is about 10 K south so the region is important to many nations.

I think a 3 state solution where Israel and Palestine both get land that has been agreed upon and the area in disagreement becomes a shared state with UN assistance in creating a fair structure that shares resources and honors the histories of both sides would be best.

Maybe with all this horrific fighting fresh in mind, there may be an opening to END it so all groups can have most of what they want and each gets the bare minimum they need. The West Bank, I believe needs to be shared because of the water resources there. Both these desert nations need the water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem

[Celerity]

8. your graphic shows the overwhelming lack of historical Jewish control (on balance) of the area as the millennia rolled by

[Mosby]

12. Israel is the 20th oldest democracy in the world

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-the-worlds-oldest-democracies/

[Celerity]

13. 75 years is blip in time. Aslo, in regards to that link, Iceland is arguably the world's oldest parliamentary democracy, with the Parliament, (Althingi), established in 930 AD.

[TigressDem]

23. Like I said this area has been fought over and contested into ancient times.

BUT we aren't looking at trying to give things back to the church as the crusaders had it at one time.

What the hope is, is that the two present countries can find a solution and water rights is a big part of this in the desert.

As is the fact that both consider Jerusalem their historical holy land.

It would be better to find a solution that gives both sides what they need and some of what they want and stop the bloodshed.

We can't fix the pain and anger from all the previous wars, but as an ally and potential arbitrator of a better solution, maybe people can have better lives going forward without bombs dropping.

[TigressDem]

6. There are water resources and making sure those are fairly shared is a large part of solving this.

OR simply make sure that water resources are shared between the nations so it's a means to peace.

[malaise]

2. Duh!

That is all

[Lovie777]

3. Hopefully the end is near.........................

for both.

At this point in time, negotiation is the key.

[Sympthsical]

7. The article's a who's who of anti-Israel actors

First, hypocrisy isn't the greatest crime there is. For some reason, the comfortable in the West always think, "The hypocrisy!" is the most devastating charge one can level. It's very navel-gazy. That said.

"President Joko Widodo of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation, which does not recognize Israel,"

Yeah, let's get his opinion on all this.

Arab leaders — including President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt, King Abdullah II of Jordan and the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Faisal bin Farhan al-Saud — all lashed out in speeches on Saturday at the Cairo peace summit at what they called double standards.

Gasp. Feign shock. Quel horror!

Russia gonna Russia. China is definitely going to China.

That helps illustrate why the West has failed to woo countries like India and Turkey into supporting sanctions against Russia.

This is an assertion without evidence. India and Turkey have their own things going on and own motives for doing things and have for quite some time. Trying to wriggle Gaza into the rationale after the fact seems like rhetorical buttressing rather than factual analysis. Like watching a partner who got caught cheating, and when they're excusing why they've been having a month's long affair, they tack on, "And we had that fight last week." Oh. That explains it.

“We should explain that what Moscow is doing in Ukraine is dangerous for all nations because if the type of international order that the Kremlin is pursuing, and that Beijing is pursuing, becomes the international order, that means that all small, comparatively weak states would be at the mercy of their larger neighbors,” Mr. Herbst said.

If only President Biden had given a major, prime time policy speech to this effect.

Wait. That's exactly what he did.

The article tries too hard. I think Brazil's head is in the right place, though.

[Celerity]

11. the key is in the article's title: 'Developing World'..... which includes billions of people, many who obviously do not agree with many of us in the most advanced nations of the West (on a multiplicit

[Sympthsical]

15. And my reply is, "So what?"

Seriously. So what?

I do not have patience for anti-Israeli sentiment. What was it - Davos? - where all those countries got together, ostensibly to talk about global human rights issues, and it was basically a free for all against Israel?

Israel is a very convenient finger point for nations and people to keep attention away from their own goals and behaviors. It's a fantastic distraction. The Arab nations' entire foreign policy is fucking the Palestinians over. Of course China's going to use it to drive wedges and expand influence. Russia is just an agent of anti-western chaos at this point.

But what would anyone have the West do? For the past twenty years, all these countries and regions mentioned would happily see Israel wiped from the map.

Just because there's a lot of them doesn't make them right. And their bullshit is a nonstarter in the West.

Once in a while - very occasionally - we're actually the good guys. It does happen. And I know that feels too uncomfortable for some to ever admit, but oh well. Ideology and religion - two great tastes that taste like ass together.

[Celerity]

17. "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,

then for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

circa approximately 500 BC (the Late Spring and Autumn Period)

[Sympthsical]

18. That implies not knowing the enemy

Here's the thing. Many in the West do.

But many in the West do not, and they keep giving the enemies of liberal democracy the benefit of the doubt. The problem is, their estimation of their own sophisticated powers of perception is perhaps not as accurate as they suppose. Dunning-Kruger writ large.

When one gazes for so long into one's own navel, the horizon is not easily seen.

[Celerity]

19. No omphaloskepsis from my end. As for the many who chose to engage in it, we are all the worse for it.

[leftstreet]

9. DURec

[Elessar Zappa]

10. Many of those countries criticizing the West

have terrible human rights records so I take their opinions with a hefty grain of salt.

[Celerity]

14. that is a more than fair point

[treestar]

16. There is a difference between use of army and terrorism

Dubya and co. and most of the media blurred the distinction as 911 was "America under attack." Not the same as being bombed by a nation with an army.

Ukraine was attacked with a military, and it could be defeated and made part of Russia.

Israel is attacked by terrorists can cannot really destroy Israel.

Handling terrorism as an act of war is complicated - how to have peace talks? What country to attack?

That Hamas was elected is used to make the Gazans responsible for the terrorist attack. The US worked hard to find a country to attack as Al Qaeda and found one.

Terrorism is our real problem. It can't defeat another nation, but it causes death and destruction much worse than ordinary crimes.

[Happy Hoosier]

20. There is a massive amount of Antisemitism in the world.

Much of the "developing world" has refused to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Rather revealing, IMO.

[maxsolomon]

21. HOW DARE THE NYT PUBLISH THIS ARTICLE.

I'm cancelling my subscription again!

[WarGamer]

22. Absolutely on target, Celerity...

I've seen it with my own eyes... on the eve of the invasion a white, blonde news reporter watched the video of the young white blonde woman with a baby in her arms fleeing the bombs and she said... "In this war, the victims look just like us..."