My philosophical thoughts on the posts on Israel. Might need a second read.

[cachukis]

There's a lot going on here and I am unsettled.

Everyone's voice shares truth; not a complete truth.

We want what matters to fit our world view. We have worked for years to construct our ego to protect our id. Some of us even project a super ego; we accept the truth in spite of ourselves.

On display is our response to our heritage. We all have at least heard of the bible. Our understanding of what went into it is personal; maybe suspect.

It is showing up in countless posts and represents the individuality of perspective and the lack of consensus that has moved society to thoughtful progress. We talk about the divide in America, but we must recognize we Democrats are not a monolith.

Some want a return to the simple truths of narrow thinking. Frankly, that's not going to happen to the narrowest of thinkers. Hence, their justifiable angst.

Every event has to be judged on it's own. The antecedents become cloudy after a time. The speculation on the unfolding is essential and natural.

We have to look at Israel knowing all of this.

Israel was thrust upon us by those who knew best.

You can't judge something until it has happened and when you do, you have to forgive those for not knowing better. Knowing better is a different story.

Dealing with the worthiness of modern Israel is moot. The consequences of that imposition is not.

We must address that which is not, to have any chance of peace.

This conversation has gone on for a long time. I have read from both positions and the defenses of such. Each is justifiably true, but not the truth.

Regardless, we are here in a world of atrocity and war. Whose eye is the first to go is beyond a solution.

The anger of the oppressed is on full display and the irony of how Machiavelli tried to share the successes and failures of those who had to manage this conflict should make us pause before we put ourselves over our fellow man.

Sr. Winifred, my fourth grade teacher when I questioned the catechism on rationalization, told me it was the worst sin. Worse than murder? Yes, for it was the rationalization, the justification for the sin.

That is where we are. It is on full display here at DU.

Be wise, Grasshopper.

[brooklynite]

1. "Israel was thrust upon us"?

I'd say you're off to a rip-roaring start.

[cachukis]

2. Who decided to set up the state? And why? The Jewish

diaspora has been around since Abraham. And yet only within larger states. There is no denying the heritage, but if you look at maps there is the ebb and flow of power/economics throughout history.

[brooklynite]

3. Who decided to set it up? The UN and the British.

Who was it "thrust upon"?

[cachukis]

5. The people of that area who were basically stateless

but mostly not Jewish. I read there were only 3,000 Jews living in what's now Northern Israel in 1946.

The Brits screwed up the Middle East after WWI. I can't argue the politics of the establishment of Israel; the heritage factor was no doubt influential. But the presence of a Jewish community would have to be classified as spread out as it was worldly.
The people living there were mostly unaware of what was soon to be there world. Thrust upon them would be apt.

[brooklynite]

9. Nobody was made "stateless" by Israel

The British protectorate of Palestine had a mixed population of Jews and Palestinians. The land was split up between an Israeli State and a Palestinian State. Palestinians who chose to stay in Israel were given Israeli citizenship. Palestinians who chose to stay in Palestine were...annexed by Jordan.

[radicalleft]

13. Are you referring to the British Mandate post WW1

or the post WW2 era?

[brooklynite]

14. Post WW2

The British were formally awarded the mandate to govern the region in 1922. The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted in 1920, 1929, and 1936. In 1947, following World War II and The Holocaust, the British Government announced its desire to terminate the Mandate, and the United Nations General Assembly adopted in November 1947 a Resolution 181(II) recommending partition into an Arab state, a Jewish state and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal, but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it; a civil war began immediately after the Resolution's adoption. The State of Israel was declared in May 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)#Post-1948

[radicalleft]

24. I believe that to fully understand the issues faced today

We must look to the post WW1 timeframe to establish the root cause of the conflict. Specifically the Palestine Mandate. I believe the events that unfolded prior to and after this are paramount to understanding motivations on both sides of the issue today.

[brooklynite]

30. The Palestine mandate controlled a Palestine that was occupied by Arabs and Jews...

...and was preceeded bv the Ottoman Empire which controlled a Palestine that was occupied by Arabs and Jews.

The situation is very much like the partition of India and Pakistan, but without nuclear weapons (yes, I know Israel has them, but they wouldn't be targeted at Gaza or the West Bank.)

[JohnSJ]

36. +++

[Happy Hoosier]

19. Does it matter?

As far a I know, Brtain controlled the Mandate from the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the Partition. There was never a sovereign Palestinian state in that time.

[radicalleft]

26. Nor was there a "state" of Israel

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2023, 11:40 PM - Edit history (1)

The mandate approved by the LON (with the Balfour Agreement as a boilerplate) recognized a "National Home for the Jews" with full civil rights to the "Non-Jewish residents".

The British and the French were very careful to not recognize statehood for the Zionists because they knew this was a contentious issue for the indigenous arabs in the region.



edit for sp

[cachukis]

15. You're missing it. They were stateless. Suddenly the were

stated. Not. Jordan chose to manage what they could, but chose not to manage the West Bank. The point is the "Palestinians" had never been governed as a state. The had, over time, to choose between the PLO and Hamas. Mind you, these people are illiterate and hoping to go to heaven after eating flat bread and cucumbers to make it through the bad times. Good times? Really, I've been to the seriously third world.

[question everything]

55. The UN voted on a partition into a Jewish State and a Palestinian one

Jordan King Abdullah immediately annexed the West Bank.

[moniss]

52. The sides were pushing each other from here to there

before 1948 and after. It was hardly a matter for many people of being able to "choose".

[Happy Hoosier]

18. Wait....

in n1946 there were more than HALF MILLION jews living in Palestine. Are you claiming there were only 8,000? Or am I misreading that?

[cachukis]

25. From what I read. I can handle a correction.

Trying to share a map from that time that ses to be embedded.

[Happy Hoosier]

29. Take a look at this...

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-210930/

[cachukis]

32. I stand corrected. I was misinformed on

population.

[radicalleft]

27. At the time of the Palestine Mandate there were only about 10,000 Jews

living in the area and over 700k arabs according to British surveys. By the end of WW2, the number of Jew was indeed close to 500k.

[cachukis]

33. Thanks.

[brooklynite]

21. A Palestinian State was also "thrust upon them"...

..until the Arab League refused to recognize the Partition and Jordan annexed the West Bank.

[cachukis]

23. No argument. They were totally out of their league

and have managed poorly. Whole other story.

[question everything]

53. Diaspora was since Abraham? Ever hears of King David?

You may want to look up the Kingdoms of Israel.

Jesus, as you may know, was a Jew, lived and preached among Jews.

When the 19th Century saw increase of nationalism in Europe it included also Jews who started migrating to that part of the Ottoman empire and building new communities.

The never ending pogroms in Russia, really Ukraine, were another incentives.

The two World Wars enhanced the need of European Jews mostly, to join the communities in what was then called Palestine. And, yes, at the end of WWI came the Balfour declaration encouraging Jews to build a homeland there.

So yes, the Jews decided to establish a homeland in what was always a hope. Why? why would any people want to have their own home?

You may want to read about Israel before posting bizarre questions here.

[cachukis]

58. I have read a lot on the subject and

while I am not an expert I was making a statement on the responses here on DU.
I was talking generally how the people here have become very defensive over their positions.
Not once have I argued against the Jews having a place to call home.

Abraham was a monotheist and didn't care to worship the gods of the places he visited. He brought his god with him. Long before David.

[leftstreet]

4. I don't understand a word of this, but thank you for posting n/t

[MOMFUDSKI]

7. lol

I catch your drift!

[cachukis]

8. Please re read, slowly.

[MOMFUDSKI]

6. One side wants a 2-State solution and

the other doesn't. Facts are facts.

[radicalleft]

10. Yitzhak Rabin if he were still alive

would no doubt disagree ith you...

[cachukis]

16. Please tell me why?

[radicalleft]

28. He was assasinted by

A memeber of a radical right wing Jewish group for agreeing to the Oslo Accords.

[cachukis]

35. I know he was assassinated. But why would he disagree?

Mind you, my post is on how so many people here are at odds. I have my own understanding and am open to criticism.

[radicalleft]

37. There are factions

within the Israeli population who also are opposed to a 2-state solution and wish to see the entire area of "The Land of Canaan" (for lack of a better term) become their homeland. There are extremists on both sides that have over the past 100 years sabotaged any meaningful path to a peaceful co-existence.

[cachukis]

41. Yes. Thanks. The Promised Land perspective.

[JohnSJ]

43. No, there were winners and losers from those wars as there are from all wars, and the

victors set the terms, not the losers.

Turkey aligned itself with Germany in WWI, and they lost control of that region as a result

[cachukis]

44. Yes. Victors divvy up the spoils. Turkey seems to

make choices that challenge its relationships.

[cachukis]

11. My post is to the DU society. We are watching

the imposition of heightened western thinking on a third world hellhole.

I don't fuck around with words.

There are really intelligent people here who are missing the big picture.

This is a vignette, on a large scale, of every book ever written.

We are past page one and on page 493. Most people can't get past page one. How do you explain page even 27.

[radicalleft]

12. Almost 100% agree

except this:

You can't judge something until it has happened and when you do, you have to forgive those for not knowing better. Knowing better is a different story.

If you look at statements and reports made to the powers that be post (and leading up to the end of) WW1, there were many voices who foretold the crisis that would be played out for years to come. Even those that advocated for the creation of a National Home for the Jews, knew what would come of the endeavor.

[cachukis]

17. That is after WWI and yet it still happened.

Everyone always does the best they can at the time they are doing it.

The choice, in the end was to impose an Israeli world where it was thought best. I don't like to infer colonialism, but it was manner of thinking at the time. Perhaps a rationalization or justification.

[radicalleft]

31. I think it was an issue of politcal manipulation

by several parties, GB, USA and the Zionist movement. All three with their own political motivations.

[question everything]

56. Why don't you take the time to read?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

[LexVegas]

20. "Israel was thrust upon us". Speak for your fucking self. nt

[cachukis]

22. Did Israel show up of its own accord?

I am in admiration of the Jewish world and my Jewish friends have enlightened my perspective.

[radicalleft]

34. Serious question...

Would the State Of Isaral as we know it today exist without the help (read military might) of Great Britain and the USA? Would the Jews have been able to return to thier ancestral homeland on their own?

[cachukis]

39. My sense is no. But guilt, philanthropy, politics and who knows what

influence so much of our morality.

[JohnSJ]

38. +++. I can almost hear some of my best friends are Jews

There was no thrusting on anybody. The results of WWI and WWII set the stage

[cachukis]

40. Actually, part of my early teens was spent with many

Jews. They challenged my Catholic upbringing and I changed my perspective. Today, I have close Jewish friends and discuss frankly what's happening in Israel. One of my friends and I were talking about her map of Israel from 2000 years ago with mine of 1946. I tried to pull my map up but couldn't.

[JohnSJ]

45. When I was growing up I was told by my Catholic friends

that because I was Jewish I would burn in hell, along with being responsible for killing Jesus.

This was before Vatican II

[cachukis]

46. I was taught that by some of my teachers.

Guess I was lucky to have an open mind and consider why someone thought differently than me.
My Jewish friends changed my life for the better.

[JohnSJ]

49. Vatican 2 changed all that, except for Mel Gibson

(That last part about Gibson is a joke, not meant to be part of the discussion)

[cachukis]

42. Didn't the powers that be dictate what happened after the wars.

Sorry if you don't like the term. But the people who had no choice might argue with you.

[JohnSJ]

47. The Ottoman Empire controlled that area until after WWI

They were on the losing side, and as in all wars the victors set the terms

The British and France partition that area

[cachukis]

48. Yes. I am a retired teacher who taught about the

rise of Islam. I know a little about the Abassids and the Umayidds.

[JohnSJ]

50. From my perspective unless they bring back a two state solution,

which Oslo tried to do, it will be endless war or worse

[cachukis]

51. Could be right.

The irony of this post was I was trying to point out the foolishness of the fight and yet, without thinking I responded to the first challenge.

Hopefully I'll do better next time.

[betsuni]

54. Philosophical! My fourth grade teacher.

READ IT A SECOND TIME, SLOWLY, DU SOCIETY.

[cachukis]

59. You must have wisdom beyond mine. I look forward

to your teachings.

[AZLD4Candidate]

57. What would you have done with the stateles Holocaust survivors that no country in the world wanted

because they were Jewish?

For years in Arab lands, Jews were treated as dhimmi. How many countries stood up the the Arabs and said "stop making your Jewish citizens second class with no rights?" ZERO

For years, in Arab lands, Jews were treated like invaders. How many countries stood up for Jewish people? ZERO

Israel was forced upon us? Wow! I guess we should have all thrown ourselves in ovens that was there would be no problem. Or as I've heard for decades: "Before Israel, we didn't have an enemy in the Middle East. Because of Israel, we don't have a friend."

People Love Dead Jews. Always has, always will.

[cachukis]

60. Wow. I admit i have been responding to the nitpickers

but I wrote my piece on just that, the nitpicking. I am not opposed to Israel.
But the Jews had not established a specific state over the last 2000 years. There are countless reasons why.
The powers that be concluded they must have a homeland that is defense able. I have no argument.

I am simply suggesting we take into consideration the big picture in understanding why the Middle East is still conflicted.

If we ignore how prejudices and religious preferences have gotten in the way, we won't get peace.

[AZLD4Candidate]

65. You completely sidestepped my original question: What would you have done with stateless Holocaust survivors

the entire world didn't want in their country?

[cachukis]

66. I have stated on several occassions that

I have no problem with Israel. My picture reveals the complications that have come about with its establishment. I'm just describing facts.
The Jewish diaspora has established enclaves throughout its history. Its insistence on a monotheistic approach to theocratic matters caused it to encroach on other approaches. Its state, Judea, was within the domain of more powerful societies and was at war many times.
The Judeo Christian societies of the Western World, felt compelled to establish a safe place for the Jewish people, who had been so devastated in the last decades.
The colonial mentalities of those nations held sway in establishing Israel. They did not think through the impact of this move on the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.
It continues to be made complicated because it relied on false assumptions as it was applied to the region.
Native Americans fought back with ancient methods to European incursions. They eventually succumbed and we look back with regret at the destruction of a multitude of cultures.
Hamas is suicidal in its want of obstruction of Israel. The two entities are not in harmony and there is not a compromise on the table.

[radicalleft]

61. There have been many Arab leaders

Who throughout recorded history have been friendly to the Jewish people. If my memory serves, Cyrus the Great who after defeating the Babylonians invited the Jews back to Jerusalem and rebuilt their temple.

More recently in years of ottoman rule Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in a state of more or less peace throughout the region.

[cachukis]

62. Your perspective displays big picture thinking.

Appreciate your comments.

Interestingly, I was drawing on my memory to compose a piece expressing my frustration with DUers who have adamant opinions on the conflict without recognizing there is more to the story.

I was not prepared for the challenge to my essay. It was later at night and ruffled feathers took umbrage at my deliberations. Dopily, I wanted to raise their level of understanding.

Bottom line, people are emotionally immersed.

It is important those with the clarity of facts interject. You have the instincts of a negotiator.

Nice to have met you.

[radicalleft]

63. Very nice to have interacted with you as well

I look forward to reading more from you!

[AZLD4Candidate]

64. Were still not full citizens because they weren't muslim.

Cyrus the Great. . .that's a long way back.