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Tom Rinaldo

(23,193 posts)
Mon Oct 23, 2023, 11:45 PM Oct 2023

Israel must invade Gaza. Which makes doing more for Gaza's civilians essential.

Israel can no longer live next door to an enclave governed by a force that spent two years planning the mass wanton slaughter of families in their beds, of children in their schools, of youth gathered to enjoy music, and of defenseless elders. Those who now run Gaza set as their goal to murder of as many Jews as possible. They then acted to realize that goal. They can no more be counted on to undergo a future change of heart than Hitler could have been at any point during World War II It is not possible for Israel to coexist now with Hamas under any circumstances. And to eradicate Hamas, Israel must conduct a land invasion of Gaza.

Any honest discussion of the war underway between Israel and Hamas in Gaza must begin by acknowledging that reality. Innocent Palestinian civilians will die when Israel invades Gaza. Virtually every invasion staged in modern times begins with extensive bombing and shelling of the area about to be invaded. Innocent civilians always die during the extensive bombing and shelling of cities. Some options can lessen the loss of innocent lives inside Gaza. But each of those options, to varying degrees, would likely increase Israeli military losses during an invasion. In warfare it is too often the case that he who hesitates is shot, and invaders rarely exercise restraint.

Israel wants to minimize their total loss of lives during the pending invasion of Gaza. Emphasizing restraint during military operations inside Gaza would cost Israeli soldiers lives that an overwhelming use of force there might instead have saved. But what cost will future Israelis have to pay to minimize combat losses today? Tens of thousands of Palestinians, with thousands of those being children, will die when Israel invades Gaza The taking of any innocent life triggers hatred. The taking of tens of thousands of innocent lives fuels a persistent escalating cycle of revenge.

In warfare much value is assigned to seizing and controlling the high ground. Israel is a very small nation, relative to others. Judaism is a very small religion, relative to others. For Israel more so than for most nations, occupying the high moral ground is a precious strategic asset. It enables Israel to rally critical support from the United States and other key nations. Abandoning that high ground would be catastrophic for the security of generations of Israelis yet to come. For Israel's own long term security, it is just as essential that it shoulder risks to protect the lives of Palestinian civilians as it is for Israelis to risk their own lives fighting inside Gaza to eradicate Hamas.

This leads to hard conclusions. For one, Israel must lift its near total siege of Gaza. Throughout world history, sieges have been an effective tool of war. They are brutal, they are unforgiving, and they often lead to victory. When a nation is fighting for its very existence, which Israel can arguably claim to be doing now, defeat is not an option. Therefor Israel laid siege to Gaza. By weakening all of Gaza through a siege, Israel does weaken its sworn enemy, Hamas. But the cost, to Israel, is too high. Not by any standard, let alone a moral yardstick, is the cost worth it to Israel.

Making the literal lives of a civilian population untenable does not further Israel's ends.. A starving population, unable to provide safe hydration for their infant young, becomes increasingly more hateful and more violent. Even if the means to inflict severe harm on those who bring death to their families is at that moment unavailable, the hate will endure until it is.

Israel can defeat Hamas without laying total siege to Hamas, though a number more of their soldiers could die as a result. Those added losses can't justify a siege of millions of civilians. Israel can arguably insist, "Release the hostages and we will lift the siege" but that lowers Israel to the same tactical level as the terrorists. Hamas won't release the hostages to save the lives of Palestinian civilians, so Israel must endanger the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians as a result? Hamas committed war crimes. The collective punishment of over two million Palestinians is also a war crime, done on a larger scale.

It is almost certainly true that Hamas will appropriate some provisions that are allowed to enter Gaza for its own internal purposes. Fuel is a prime example, and to deny fuel to Hamas hampers their fighting ability That is Israel's logic. But Israeli bombings cause civilian casualties. Though some such casualties may be an inevitable byproduct of war, the inability of hospitals to provide medical treatment for innocents is not. Israel is creating civilian casualties through its actions. Israel cut off the transmission of electricity to Gaza. At the very least Israel must allow hospitals to obtain the fuel they require to function so as to save civilian lives. If Hamas appropriates that fuel away from the hospitals that need it, let that be on their heads. Allowing for that possibility is a risk that Israel must take.

Hamas is entrenched in Gaza surrounded by civilians used as human shields. Nothing that Israel can do will guarantee safety to all Palestinian civilians during its war with Hamas, and the inevitable invasion to come. Those in the South of Gaza may be safer than those in the North, but they are not safe. Palestinians have valid reason to feat that should they leave their homeland now they will never be allowed to return to it. None the less many would seek safety outside of Gaza were that available to them. Egypt has its reasons, which can be argued but none the less exist, for not wanting to take in refugees from Gaza. But Egypt is not a direct party to this war. The long term security of Israel hinges on its relationship with the people of Palestine.

I heard an Israeli professor based in Jerusalem float an idea that he acknowledged was unlikely to be under current consideration. Why not allow Palestinian refugees from Gaza to seek safety inside of Israel? He suggested that Israel take in women and children refugees only, to lessen security risks to Israel. He didn't expand on that thought further, he was calling for thinking outside of the box. Presumably Gaza refugees would be confined to refugee camps for the duration of the fighting, or perhaps after a vetting process some could move on to territory in the West Bank where the Palestinian Authority has jurisdiction. But no one would be forcibly moved to refugee camps inside of Israel, it would be voluntary only. If this isn't being considered, why not? WHY NOT? Of course it would entail risks to Israel, but are they greater than the risk engendered by Israel failing to do everything it can to lessen civilian deaths in Gaza?

There are no easy answers here. Calling for a cease fire in Gaza so that the killing will stop is not an answer. From Israel's security perspective the killing MUST continue until the threat from Hamas is eliminated. To allow Hamas to remain in power indefinitely, by freezing the conflict at its current stage, would be akin to urging Ukraine to accept a cease fire after Russia had achieved its maximum censure of Ukrainian territory. A short term cease fire in Gaza, called for a specific defined goal, such as an evacuation of civilians, can be sought and Israel should stay open to short pauses in the fighting to achieve narrowly defined humanitarian ends. But this is a war Israel can't afford to avoid having. Just like Israel can't avoid caring about the immediate fate of Gaza's civilians. Israel's security requires both.

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Israel must invade Gaza. Which makes doing more for Gaza's civilians essential. (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Oct 2023 OP
Thanks for the thoughtful post. Elessar Zappa Oct 2023 #1
Hamas has about 25000 members. I cannot see how JohnSJ Oct 2023 #2
Kincking this because much has changed, but not really, since I posted this Tom Rinaldo Oct 2023 #10
This is very thoughtful Sympthsical Oct 2023 #3
Well Said, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2023 #4
More blood must be spilled? LiberaBlueDem Oct 2023 #5
What if there is no invasion? LiberaBlueDem Oct 2023 #6
Just like "nothing hppened" during the two years Hamas spent planning its attack? n/t Tom Rinaldo Oct 2023 #9
Well let me wonder moniss Oct 2023 #7
Well, it is definitely their mess that Bibi created. Xolodno Oct 2023 #8
 

JohnSJ

(98,883 posts)
2. Hamas has about 25000 members. I cannot see how
Tue Oct 24, 2023, 12:44 AM
Oct 2023

invading Gaza will eliminate Hamas without involving many years of war, and no guarantee of success.

What I can see is gathering intelligence, methodically going after those directly responsible for the Oct. 7th attack, from the leaders of Hamas, those who planned the attack, and those who did the actual killings.

and you start at the top. That is how we finally approached AQ. We destroyed their leadership and planners

If Israel sends troops into Gaza, I believe that is exactly what Hamas (part of the Muslim) brotherhood want them to do.


Tom Rinaldo

(23,193 posts)
10. Kincking this because much has changed, but not really, since I posted this
Sat Oct 28, 2023, 02:46 PM
Oct 2023

I see that now two of the three pipelines that carry water from Israel to Hamas have reopened. That's something. Fuel still isn't getting to the hospitals, which is criminal. Food is only trickling into Gaza through the southern entrance. Hamas still holds almost all of their innocent civilians hostages captive, which is criminal.. Neither Egypt nor Israel is letting in any refugees from Gaza, though I read some talk somewhere that Egypt might accept a limited number. Now Israeli ground forces are inside Gaza.

Nowhere near enough is being done to aid Palestinian civilians, and Hamas is still an absolutely murderous regime that can't be allowed to plot the murder of thousands of Israeli citizens in continued peace and relative security. .I still believe Israel has no choice now but to uproot Hamas, and I still believe Israel is making a grave error in not doing more for Gaza civilians, even though it complicates their military actions to do so, and even if it increases the risk to their soldiers fighting inside Gaza to do so.

LiberaBlueDem

(1,167 posts)
5. More blood must be spilled?
Tue Oct 24, 2023, 01:38 AM
Oct 2023

No, it doesn't. 1,000 dead in one place and 10,000 dead in another makes no good for anyone.

moniss

(9,118 posts)
7. Well let me wonder
Tue Oct 24, 2023, 02:13 AM
Oct 2023

about the residents of Gaza "leaving" into Israel or any other country for that matter. Do you really want me to believe that once they did that there would not be an immediate and aggressive policy put in place for the establishment of Israeli Settlements and "Outposts"? Why should I suddenly disbelieve what the history has shown? Evacuation is not a solution because nobody believes the hollow words about resolving the issue of return "later".

The governments of the supposed negotiators involved in this mess over the years have always pushed the idea that "right of return" as an issue can be made to go away once the question of a Palestinian state is resolved and so any discussion always seems to shove statehood as solving everything . Since there is nothing more than lip service, unsustainable proposals and hollow promises ever put forth about the statehood question it gets used by these "international negotiators" to checkmate the legitimate questions of "right of return" and "compensation for confiscated land, assets and businesses". So the longer those matters get stalled off and those who can prove claims die off and/or records destroyed then the fewer and fewer will be those to be able to pursue those matters. A solution by attrition but not by just means or intentions.

Xolodno

(7,361 posts)
8. Well, it is definitely their mess that Bibi created.
Tue Oct 24, 2023, 03:30 AM
Oct 2023

He purposely enabled Hamas to be a FOIL and in hopes of killing off the Oslo Accords once and for all. Now its come back to bite him in the ass. I think this time, once this is over, he will be tossed for good, just trying to salvage a legacy. But then again, he could try to drag this out as it will allow him to stay in power for longer, he wants to be an autocrat. Can never tell with this guy. Ariel Sharron was almost much of a nationalist as Bibi was, if not worse. But then he realized reality and the wisdom of a two state solution. But, a stroke took him out.

Worse, anything he says can't believed.

“Obama began by reproaching Sarkozy for not warning him in advance that France would vote in favour of Palestinian membership of UNESCO,” the website reported. “The conversation turned to Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, with Sarkozy saying ,’I don’t want to see him anymore, he’s a liar.’

“To which President Obama replied: ‘You’ve had enough of him, but I have to deal with him every day!’ Obama then asked Sarkozy to try to convince the Palestinians to slow down with their UN membership drive.”


https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/hot-mic-catches-obama-sarko-griping-about-netanyahu
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