General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe US has an identity crisis rooted in way too much religion
The Supreme Court has ruled many times in the spirit of "separation of church and state".
"Though not explicitly stated in the First Amendment, the clause is often interpreted to mean that the Constitution requires the separation of church and state." (Free Speech Center)
So, why in 1954 was Eisenhower allowed to add "under God" to the pledge of allegiance? Why were schools allowed to compel students to recite this IN SCHOOL, a public institution children are made, by law, to attend.
https://www.history.com/news/pledge-allegiance-under-god-schools
Then, there's our money:
https://study.com/learn/lesson/in-god-we-trust-history-purpose-money.html#:~:text=Originally%20used%20on%20coins%20during,nation%20is%20in%20God's%20hands.
Many times, I've heard pastors lament that the world would be so much better if we just brought prayers back to the school. My response?
Whose prayer should it be? From what I read, there are 5 major religions in the US and I assume many more.
Why involve school? Kids are free to pray at home, free to attend the community worship center of their choice.
sanatanadharma
(4,076 posts)Confusion and worse comes unless one is absolutely clear about their basic, innate identity, free of confusions and mix-ups with non-identity labels.
One's conscious identity precedes one's name and birth and all all other labels of experiences, desires, activities, etc.
No one IS their religion. No one is their State.
50 people should not fight because of fifty different names that are not the fighters' own names.
Identifying as human is more humane than identifying self with any one of gods' infinite names.
Fighting over names is the confusion of extreme prejudice.
RSherman
(576 posts)stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...than yours doesn't mean that they are not human.
We can't just ignore history and push entire cultures into the closet.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)It's a part of her identity.
I'm not sure why anybody would consider that a problem.
Peoples' identities are not the problem.
Skittles
(169,721 posts)their anti-birth control stance is sickening
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)The answer, of course, is that it doesn't.
There's a lot of stereotypes out there.
3Hotdogs
(15,053 posts)tell me how I need to live my life.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...her religion historically is a religion of war. (Today, her culture is one of Colombia's so-called "cultures of resistance", where nonviolence is a lifestyle.)
Her ancestors fought the wars for America, and definitely attempted to impose their religious values on their neighbors.
You aren't missing any cows, are you?
"The devil makes me laugh" (History of Catholicism)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217619196
3Hotdogs
(15,053 posts)stuck in the middle
(821 posts)3Hotdogs
(15,053 posts)Response to 3Hotdogs (Reply #14)
Skittles This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)Catholic priests routinely preach from the pulpit that people should vote against laws that improve the lots of women and LGBTQ people. Their preaching has an effect on their congregations, and that makes them a group that has a very, very negative effect on all of our lives.
So when you say, "of course they don't affect the lives of the rest of us" I have to disagree strongly.
I am saying that as a person raised Catholic who went to 16 years of Catholic schools. Being raised Catholic includes a host of other problems because it made us prey for pedophiles who had power over us, but that is a different discussion.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)We live in a western patrilinear culture.
I don't see how one can reasonably blame a non-western matrilinear culture for the ills of our own western culture.
Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)pews up until my early adulthood, I was giving money to the church. The church used that money to fund itself and its works. Those works included weekly sermons all across the country that said abortion was a mortal sin and we should do everything in our power to "save all those babies." They also preached that any sexuality other than heterosexuality was a mortal sin. And we should do everything in our power to "save the family."
The priests routinely demanded that we vote for anti abortion and anti LGBTQ candidates. In other words, republiQans. They said it would be sinful to vote for those who supported abortion and LGBTQ rights. As in, defying their demands will send you to hell. That is a powerful motivator for a lot of people.
Other "works" Catholics are paying for with their weekly donations are the Catholic political organizations that have a profound effect on our politics. Organizations like Opus Dei. Here's an excerpt of an article on the massive influence Opus Dei has in Washington, to the detriment of all of us. The whole article is worth a read.
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2019/06/opus-deis-influence-is-felt-in-all-of-washingtons-corridors-of-power/
The centers board includes Leonard Leo, executive vice president of the Federalist Society, which helped shepherd the Supreme Court nominations of Brett M. Kavanaugh and Neil M. Gorsuch. White House counsel Pat Cipollone is a former board member, as is William P. Barr, who served as attorney general under President George H.W. Bush and is now President Trumps nominee for the same position. Barr, a committed Catholic, was highly recommended by Leonard Leo.
Given the small margins in elections these days, the Catholic church and those who follow it are a crucial bloc that is very influential in electing the most terrible people and inventing the most cruel policies that we are seeing these days and that are making life miserable for ALL of us.
Also, just an aside, your characterization of Catholicism as "matrilinear" is kind of wacky. If you are saying that the women in your wife's family have been the most devout members of the religion, that does not actually mean it is matrilinear. Catholicism is an extremely patriarchal religion and quite prejudiced against women and women's rights. Also, your characterization that it is "non-western" and therefore has no influence on our culture is odd. Those millions of "western" people who follow Catholicism have a profound influence on our politics and lives.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)to do with the topic you and I were discussing. Have a lovely day.
Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #49)
stuck in the middle This message was self-deleted by its author.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)And have a nice day.
Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)Did you miss where I mentioned LGBTQ rights, or are you saying I should not have mentioned LGBTQ rights?
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...it's silly for you to complain about me mentioning something that you yourself brought up.
Anyway, this is getting tedious.
Have a nice day.
Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)Skittles
(169,721 posts)I would NEVER support such an institution, not EVER
over and OUT
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)Did your parents threaten to feed you to the patianos?
Thats just an old trope. My wife has never actually eaten anybody.
Im trying to understand why you fear my wifes culture so much.
(page 143)
Es cierto que los procesos de colonización y evangelización marcaron la pauta dualista entre el bien y el mal, y este diablo es el acusador, el que controla, es el maligno; el Valle del Patía ha sido conocido históricamente como un territorio portador del mal. El Patía lugar escabroso, de negros, de abigeato, bajeza asociada al ejercicio de la fuerza, de la esgrima, del crimen y el trabajo forzoso en la minería. Recuerdo de niña que, en Popayán, ciertos adultos le decían a los niños cuando eran necios, traviesos, desobedientes y callejeros sin permiso de los padres, frases como: Si te portas mal, te come o te mata un negro del Patía. Epítetos como negros, salvajes, infieles, sin alma a lo largo de la colonia y hasta mediados del siglo XX, eran el mal para todo aquel que no estaba dentro de la norma establecida por la conducta moral del Estado-nación. Unos irracionales -eran considerados los afros- en una racionalidad colonial, por su particular concepción y comportamiento distintos; posteriormente fueron declarados apátridas por no ser partícipes de las contiendas en la campaña libertadora comandada por Simón Bolívar, quien participa en una lucha libertadora en la que quienes comandaban eran los que habían sido sus amos antes de fugarse al haber sido esclavos.
(via ChatGPT)
It is true that the processes of colonization and evangelization set the dualistic pattern between good and evil, and this devil is the accuser, the one who controls, the evil one; the Patía Valley has historically been known as a territory bearing evil. Patía, a rugged place, associated with black people, cattle theft, lowliness linked to the exercise of force, fencing, crime, and forced labor in mining. I remember as a child in Popayán, certain adults would tell children phrases like: "If you behave badly, a black person from Patía will eat you or kill you." Epithets such as "blacks," "savages," "infidels," "soulless" throughout the colonial period and until the mid-20th century, represented evil for anyone who did not conform to the established moral conduct of the nation-state. The Afro-descendants were considered "irrational" in a colonial rationality due to their distinctive conception and behavior; later, they were declared "stateless" for not participating in the liberation campaign led by Simón Bolívar, who fought for freedom alongside those who had been their masters before they escaped from slavery.
Vídeo clip Esclavo de amor Son del Tuno
ms liberty
(10,990 posts)And Southern evangelicalism is not just a religion or culture. It permeates everything. And it's twisted, misogynistic, sexist, classist, racist.
I grew up Southern Baptist, and I live in a rural NC county of less than 35k; it has over 100 churches. Obama was right. In the South, many people do cling to their guns and religion. There are real and somewhat understandable reasons why this came to be, but I'm not going to begin a lengthy discussion about it. When I go to church, it's for the funerals and weddings.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)The Amazon link to the book below has a "Look Inside" preview.
The preview goes to page 25, and includes the table of contents, the entire introduction, and the first few pages of chapter 1, and is well worth reading.
Indian and Slave Royalists in the Age of Revolution: Reform, Revolution, and Royalism in the Northern Andes, 17801825 (Cambridge Latin American Studies, Series Number 102)
by Marcela Echeverri
https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Slave-Royalists-Age-Revolution/dp/1107084148
Here's a short excerpt from later in the book, with a summary of the history of my wifes culture, about which there is very little information in English, so I was very happy when this book came out.
(pages 104 - 106)
snip-------
Slaves also sought freedom extra-legally, and flight was typical across the Pacific lowlands. Some escaped slaves traveled as far as the cities while others formed maroon communities, or palenques, along the margins of the mining region. The most important palenque that was formed within the jurisdiction of Popayán was located east of the Pacific mines, in the Patía River Valley. This palenque was significant because it evolved into a town that, as we shall see in later chapters, was central to the royalist defense of Popayán during the wars of independence. Runaways settled in a place called "El Castigo," taking advantage of the frontier area around the Patía River Valley north of Pasto and east of Barbacoas, which was not colonized by the Spanish until the 1720s. By then, when exploration of the area and land titling began to take place, the palenque was populated mostly by renegade whites and runaway slaves from the mines of Barbacoas and Iscuandé and from the haciendas in the Cauca River Valley. During this period Spanish colonial officials unsuccessfully attempted to conquer or destroy this palenque.
Yet, as occured in the neighboring palenques of Esmeraldes and Baudó, and in other runaway communities in colonial contexts, the inhabitants of El Castigo sought the presense of representatives of the church in their territory. Between 1731 and 1732, they sent three messengers to the city of Pasto to request that a Priest visit Nachao and Nalgua, two towns they had established, each of which had built a church within its boundries. This request exposed their strategy of aligning their community with the Catholic precepts that were central to social and political life in Popayán.
The Quito Audiencia tried to take advantage of the maroons' interest in the church, attempting to co-opt the palenque into establishing civil government in the area in exchange for a pardon from the state. The runaway community resisted the audencia's attempt to include them within its juristiction (reducción) but succeeded in securing a permanent priest for their settlement. Morover, the Popayán municipal council conceeded their right to name two people from the palenque to "administer justice in the name of His Magisty to all the individuals who currently are congregated in those towns," with the condition that they not admit any more runaways to the community, detaining the fugitives and informing the Popayán authorities to their presence. Thus, the maroons of Patía not only used religion for the purpose of community building; they also seem to have preferred to establish a relationship with the church rather than with the civil authorities.
In the Hispanic context, the crown promoted a corporate organization of society, and thus collective rights could be secured to a greater extent than individual rights. This constituted an incentive for enslaved and free blacks to link their legal strategies to the colonial corporate logic. Indeed, the politics of freedom and community building among free people of African descent pivoted around the struggle to gain recognition, aquire political rights, and overcome racist assumptions of the larger society. During the eighteenth century, those goals coincided with the crown's interest in integrating the maroons into society - to "reduce" the community of runaways to legitimate towns - by negociating and extending certain concessions in exchage for their professed loyalty. The integration of free blacks in to civil life reminds us that maroon communities were forged within the colonial would and not outside it.
In Popayán, free and enslaved blacks of Africal origin and descent upheld justice through their underlying pattern of engagement with imperial legal institutions. This was visible in instances when, as in Patía, maroons negociated their conditions of integration into colonial society. Yet legal freedom was not the only goal of the enslaved. As we will see next, in the Pacific mining region, garnering greater rights within the institution of slavery may have been their most realistic goal.
snip-------

sanatanadharma
(4,076 posts)Identity is a problem when labels become reality and people fight to defend definitions.
We can't live without some names, labels, identities, but they should not act as fences, barriers, or jails for the conscious-human-being.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)sanatanadharma
(4,076 posts)Both sides have to believe there is a permanent, immutable, non-negotiable, 'otherness - me-ness' that requires a ninja stance of attack-defend.
Extremely subtle thoughts in mind about concepts unverifiable are common in identity-crisis, Hatfield and McCoy issues wherein one's identity annoys another and the other needs to defend their identity.
We are who we think we are. It is time to stop feeding the angry wolf.
I identify as 'limitless-existent-consciousness' knowing the roller coaster experience of this limited body-mind-sensory-orgainization with a name, a known history (and a not-yet negated prehistory*).
*And that gentle reader involves karma, karma-phala, reincarnation, and one only limited-existent-consciousness (which is a whole lot of 'kevalam'), and a whole lot more as taught within my identity-church. Only the willing need apply, we do not evangelize. We do not attack. We do not defend. We live lifestyles till death that do not require disorderly otherness.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...between the masters and the slaves.
A La Mina No Voy (2014) - Traditional Colombian Folksong
A portrait of Afro-Colombian life, 'A La Mina No Voy' (I am not going to the mine), is a Colombian folksong that was sung by slaves resisting work in the mines.
arrangement and violin, Aron Frank
voice, Teófilo Potes (Buenaventura, Colombia)
( voice taken from 'Afro-Hispanic Music from Western Colombia and Ecuador' // recorded and edited by Norman E. Whitten, Jr. // Folkway Records, Album No. FE4376, ©1967. )
_____________________________________________________
Manque (aunque) mi amo me mate/ Although my master would kill me
A la mina no voy/ I am not going to the mine
No quiero morir/ I don't want to die
De un canalón/ In the waterway (of gold placering)
A la mina no voy/ I am not going to the mine
Mi amo pegado, yo lo digo/ My master punishes, I say it
Con justícia y con grador/ With justice and with willingness
A la mina no voy/ I am not going to the mine
Que a lo' hombres no 'e venden/ Don't sell the men
Porque tienen corazón/ Because they have courage
A la mina no voy/ I am not going to the mine
Manque (aunque) mi amo me mate/ Although my master would kill me
A la mina no voy/ I am not going to the mine
edisdead
(3,396 posts)Yeah no problems in the catholic faith over the years.
Wow!
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)How does my wife's identity effect you in any way?
This identity-based bullshit has been going on for 500 years.
edisdead
(3,396 posts)Your wifes identity is supporting, as you said, a 500 year old culture that was, is, and will continue to be disastrous for humans. I am sorry but that culture has brought upon countless terrors over the years. So yeah I am sorry but I do not understand people that continue to support it. Want to do local good? There are any number of non-profits that one could work through. Looking for social outlets? There are plenty of community groups that one could join.
Supporting an organization that sits upon untold riches, many of which begotten through theft or other illegal activities throughout the years, that covers up sexual assaults, rapes, molestations
. On and on, has and does support subjugation of women
.. Sorry religion in general is a blight on our species and the catholic church ranks high on the list of the worst.
Now am I saying that YOUR wife is a terrible person? Absolutely NOT. I do very much winder why and how people can support an organization that has repeatedly again and again proven that they are NOT the thing that their parishioners seek.
Response to edisdead (Reply #63)
Post removed
edisdead
(3,396 posts)edisdead
(3,396 posts)If you are accusing me of white supremacy or harboring its views
First I am going to need you to show me where in my text I displayed ANYTHING of the sort. Because I absolutely did NOT, and you would be well put on your ass once you saw what my family make up is and who is in my circle.
I am going to go ahead and assume that you responded to the wrong person in this very i stance because leveling such a charge against someone with absolutely no reason should be against all decorum rules in this forum.
You should have yourself a good day because I can tell you desperately need one.
Lonestarblue
(13,246 posts)The religious right has been trying to undo freedom from religion almost from our inception. Unlike many religious people who assume that religion and morality are the same thing, I do not. Thus, I do not want a religion in government, but I do want morality in government. And by that I mean fairness in government. I think President Biden exemplifies this situation as he is personally religious but uses his empathy for others and fairness to show his views. For example, his religion says abortion is wrong for any reason, but his morality and sense of fairness say that women are capable of making their own decisions and should have that right to personal autonomy.
The religious right is fighting so hard to turn their beliefs into government policy and laws because they can no longer win converts to their beliefs because they deny basic personal rights. White evangelicals are seeing a decline in their numbers, so their response is not to adjust their message but to enlist government to enforce their beliefs that a majority does not support. They have the Republican Party and the Supreme Court helping them for now, but when they become a smaller voting bloc that support may evaporate except for the extremist Catholics on the SC. Their support can only be moderated by adding four new justices.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)This summer we got to do a little sight seeing. We drove to Cartagena, and did the tourist thingie. It was fun.
We even got to take a tour of Simón Bolívar's estate. (It was enormous.) The kitchen had a tiny window where his slaves were fed. His slaves were not even allowed in the kitchen. Can't be too careful. He had a lot of enemies.
LA REBELION (NO LE PEGUE A LA NEGRA) - Joe Arroyo
LA TIERRA PROMETIDA, CARLOS VIVES, CARTAGENA DE INDIAS, COLOMBIA, TURISMO
edisdead
(3,396 posts)So we should definitely throw out everything else that they had a hand in setting up right?
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)How many more must die?
Can't we all just get along?
by Francisco U. Zuluaga
https://historiayespacio.univalle.edu.co/index.php/historia_y_espacio/article/view/6785/9276 (pdf)
La tozudez y la fiereza con que los guerreros patianos defendieron el estandarte realista, entronizaron al Patía y sus gentes en las categorfas de lo más bárbaro, cruel y salvaje que haya podido darse en la historia de Colombia.
---------------------------
The stubbornness and fierceness with which the warriors from Patía defended the royalist banner, enthroned the Patía and its people in the categories of the most barbaric, cruel and savage that could have occurred in the history of Colombia.
ESPEJO RETROVISOR BAMBUCO PATIANO
303squadron
(775 posts)On US bills a little bit of ink correctly changes the statement: In God We Rust!
Of course, not that I've ever altered a bill....
brewens
(15,359 posts)out.
Celerity
(53,744 posts)Did you mean the version without under God?
brewens
(15,359 posts)jayschool2013
(2,609 posts)And they can pray to whatever they'd like to pray. Just don't ask the school to lead the prayer.
brewens
(15,359 posts)that superstition they could still look at slavery and think that was okay? Got it. Tells me exactly what it was worth or ever will be worth.
"But those were different times" they say. We're not talking about ancient Greece here. They won't admit the real problem. Their sacred book written by men that didn't even know to wash their hands after they took a shit allowed them to look at black people as subhuman.
SouthernLiberal
(408 posts)In school or anywhere, even though a more private place would be preferable. But too many "Christians" ignore the actual teaching in their Bible.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Free to pray at school, so long as it isnt being led by a school employee.
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...before math exams and during school shootings.
3Hotdogs
(15,053 posts)their kids had to sit in the gym while the Halloween costume parade was happening. Their religion considers Halloween to be idolatry. This resulted in many posts in the local community online board.
The district used to have a significant Jewish population and the schools were closed for a couple of days in September. That population has declined to 2 or 3 percent but the schools are still closed during those days.
So... brings my question to the online board - "Suppose parents came to the BoE and wanted a day off because they believe in Zeus or Thor. That would be met with a chuckle or their being told where to fuck off to.
How about Wicca? Druids? Druids are cute, aren't they? So maybe they get a pass.
Vonnegut: "And so it goes."
stuck in the middle
(821 posts)After all, that's when violinists climb el cerro del Manzanillo, and make pacts with the devil, and exchange her very souls for violin lessons.
Bambuco Patiano - Bambuco Negro
phylny
(8,792 posts)for us to have a few Jewish holidays off, specifically Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur. I think it was partly because a lot of our teachers were Jewish and getting subs for that many classrooms would have been a nightmare. Of course, we also had a large Jewish student population.
ck4829
(37,432 posts)If you want a hint of where that belief can lead you, just look at Imperial Japan and with the belief that the emperor was a living god.
We need to have a humanity declaration, our leaders and even candidates need to get out there and say they are not selected by God, their predecessors, and their successors are not selected by God.
hildegaard28
(792 posts)Be a much better place without religion. So many conflicts would just disappear if religion disappeared. Much harder to justify killing someone because they worship another god or worship god differently, or believing that god is ordering someone's death, if there is no belief in god.
edisdead
(3,396 posts)stuck in the middle
(821 posts)...you're asking the wrong questions.
JoseBalow
(9,196 posts)ancianita
(42,954 posts)Soon after the Revolution was won, the colonies disestablished religion as part of their governance. So no, the country wasn't founded as a Christian nation. It was just full of Christians. Big difference.
Since so-called speaker Mike Johnson is an evangelical and Southern Baptist, he would ignore this northern Baptist minister. This is how sectarian believer wars begin -- with christians proudly but secretly deceiving themselves about knowing what God wants.
Siggy52
(24 posts)KS Toronado
(23,096 posts)
kskiska
(27,165 posts)We were also required to recite the Lord's Prayer and sing "Ameica."
leftyladyfrommo
(19,956 posts)Just ended and everybody's family had soldiers that hadn't been home all that long. In Spokane where we lived people were patriotic and just about everyone went to church. The Russians were pounding their shoes on podiums while screaming that they would bury us.
We never had prayer in school but we started the day with the Pledge of Allegiance . And that was OK with us. We were Americans.
Scrivener7
(58,432 posts)"Dagger John Hughes," the archbishop of New York who eventually built St. Patrick's Cathedral, was pissed that Catholic children had to say anti-Catholic Protestant prayers in public schools.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mcnamarasblog/2009/01/bishop-hughes-and-the-public-school-society.html
In 1840, New Yorks Bishop John Hughes argued that that since the public schools were essentially Protestant, Catholics should receive public funding to start their own. After an unsuccessful appeal to the Democrats, who were usually pro-immigrant, Hughes urged Catholic parents: Look well to your candidates, and if they are disposed to make Infidels or Protestants of your children, let them receive no vote of yours. Just before the 1841 elections, he organized the Carroll Hall ticket, which hurt the Democrats at the polls. In 1842, the Maclay School Bill banned religion in the public schools,
czarjak
(13,449 posts)Too many versions.
Poiuyt
(18,272 posts)I grew up in the 50s and 60s, when science was cool. Now, logic is taking a back seat to conservative Christianity.
