When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.

[lapucelle]

Terrorist leader Ismail Haniyeh on his willingness to sacrifice the people of Gaza in his crusade to establish an authoritarian theocracy to rule the Palestinian people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link to tweet

[JI7]

1. Muslim nations won't speak out against this

[JI7]

2. Muslim nations won't speak out against this

[lapucelle]

3. There's a lot of astroturfed rage against Israel at the moment. Gazan civilians "sacrificed" by Hamas

will continue to feed it.

[Think. Again.]

5. Gaza civilians...

...are being 'sacrificed' by hamas and Israel alike.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

11. Only by Hamas

They could end this now, but they choose not to. To paraphrase Golda Meir, Hamas hates Israel more than they love their own people.

[Think. Again.]

17. No...

...the "look what you made me do!" excuse isn't going to work.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

18. Believe what you choose n/t

[Think. Again.]

20. I choose truth...

...hard as it may be.

I don't just 'choose' what I want to believe is true.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

23. Opinion is not

Fact/truth.

But you do you.

[Think. Again.]

35. Opinion formed from facts and truth....

...as the basis for is believed is the best anyone can hope for.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. Hamas could end this now

They choose not to. That’s the fact upon which I base my opinion.

[Think. Again.]

38. Israel could stop the violence right now too.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

40. They won't

And shouldn’t stop until Hamas is eliminated or at least neutralized to the greatest degree possible.

So long as Hamas is able to lob missiles at Israel, Israel has an obligation to go after them.

[Think. Again.]

42. I agree that hamas needs to be eliminated...

...entirely and quickly.

I disagree that needs to be done at the expense of civilian, non-hamas lives.

[wnylib]

61. What is your proposal for eliminating Hamas

without civilan casualties?

I agree that civilian casualties of war are humanitarian disasters. That is what makes war so terrible and something to avoid when possible. But how do you eliminate ruthless terrorists who will not stop unless destroyed?

In WWII, 300,000 German civilians died as a result of the Allied invasion of Germany to destroy the Nazi regime. That number doesn't include the civilians who were injured, left homeless, or the children who were orphaned.

One approach to the problem that the world seems to be ignoring is putting pressure on Hamas to stop storing munitions in civilian facilities. Stop hoarding and stealing humanitarian aid meant for civilians. It might be helpful to hear that pressure coming from Arabic nations, as well as from other nations.

[Beastly Boy]

55. Are you serious?

Do you truly believe that if Israel stopped today Hamas will release the hostages and stop hiding behind civilians as they shoot rockets into Israel's civilian centers?

It takes a hell of a lot of willful detachment from reality to argue something like this.

[Think. Again.]

56. I don't believe the strategy Israel is using ...

...is the only strategy available to stop hamas and that more targeted and 'surgical' (in the words of the Biden administration) efforts, which avoid harming civilians, are possible and preferable.

[Beastly Boy]

58. Then, Israel stopping the violence right now will accomplish nothing.

What you are proposing is to continue the violence, but conducting it in a more surgical way.

This proposes a change in tactics but not in strategy. In this case, the effectiveness of this tactics needs to be evaluated relative to the tactics is currently proposing.

There are two competing objectives in play here: saving lives and eliminating Hamas. Hamas is 100% certain to use hostages and civilians as human shields. Civilian casualties in both scenarios are unavoidable. This alone makes the morality of your argument into question: you only believe in reducing civilian casualties, not avoiding them. Whether one tactic will save more lives in total vs the other tactic is a question that you have no answer to. Basically, what you are suggesting is fewer casualties on the Palestinian side (maybe) at the expense of more casualties on the Israeli side (almost certainly). This exchange also puts the morality of your proposal on shaky grounds. It is also a virtual certainty that your scenario will take much longer timewise.

So we are not talking about morality. Your proposal is purely a number crunching exercise. You think that the head count in one scenario will be lesser than the head count in the other. That is a very dubious assumption, based on, well I don't know what it is based on.

[Think. Again.]

59. So many words!...

...if Israel focused their efforts on targeting hamas' ability to use violent aggression against Israeli civilians, through whatever means they can come up with, WHILE RESPECTING THE SANCTITY OF NON-HAMAS LIVES AND WELL-BEING, I would not even be in this discussion.

[Beastly Boy]

60. You are not proposing anything that can achieve your dreams.

Do you think Hamas will respect the sanctity of non-Hamas lives? Do you think they will hesitate to blow up a building full of civilians (and blame it on Israel) if there is a single IDF soldier in it threateing their rocket launchers?

It is easy claiming the high moral ground when you don't have to back up your claim in the real world.

[Think. Again.]

63. Correct...

...I do not have the experience or skills to make any type of international relations proposals, other than that all players act within international law, which includes the upholding the responsibility to avoid harming civilians.

And yes, I realize hamas is not doing that, but the actions of a terrorist group do not relieve a nation of their responsibility to international law.

[Beastly Boy]

64. Then you are only assuming that your sentiments will lead to net positive consequences.

An assumption that, by your own admission, is based on sentiments alone.

[Think. Again.]

65. I have no delusions...

...that my individual thoughts on this current situation will have any affect at all on it.

[Beastly Boy]

67. But they do.

Not the thoughts, but the ways you express them. They add to the chorus of well-meaning but ill-informed sentiments that make up the narrative of Israel's intentional elimination of the Palestinian civilians, in disregard to the circumstances that dictate the ugly nature of warfare.

[Think. Again.]

68. I suspect neither hamas nor Israel...

...is paying any attention to what anyone in the civilian global community thinks about their actions.

[Beastly Boy]

70. Everybody pays attention to mass and social media

The narrative being pushed through them has already been shown to trigger destabilizing events in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, and even the remote Russian province of Dagestan.

It's the Butterfly Effect.

[Think. Again.]

74. Hmmm....

...but which narrative is having which effects?

[Beastly Boy]

76. fair point.

This is the war of narratives as well.

It's your decision. I made mine: I use my head rather than my heart in shaping my narrative, which doesn't preclude it from being partial. It does, however, make it more grounded in fact.

[Think. Again.]

77. To the best of my knowledge...

...my positions are based on my reactions to factual occurrences

My thoughts on all of all this are the result of how those facts affect both my heart and my head, and the narrative that I share is a simple recitation of those thoughts, free of any delibrate 'shaping'.

[Beastly Boy]

79. Your thoughts rarely address the causes for factual occurrences

Occurrences themselves are the visible effects of the causes. A tip of the iceberg, to use another metaphor.

[Think. Again.]

80. Correct...

...I try to keep the thoughts I express on point, without hijacking the thread toward subjects not addressed by the OP.

For instance, in this thread on how citizens of Gaza are being used as pawns, I replied to a post by presenting my opinion on how abuse of those citizens is also being carried out by Israel.

Then spent a lot of time fending off attempts to discredit my right to express that opinion.

[inthewind21]

69. As are

you. Suggestions that have proved over and over to NOT work. If they did, the conflict now wouldn't be happening.

[Beastly Boy]

73. Which suggestions do you have in mind?

I would like to address them one by one.

[wnylib]

57. Truth is often subjective interpretation of facts.

[Think. Again.]

66. I think that would be belief....

...truth, as in reality, exists externally from our perceptions of it.

[wnylib]

75. When human beings speak of truth, fact, and objective reality,

subjective human perception and experience are involved.

For many centuries, it was an observable fact of objective reality that the sun revolves around the earth. Until it wasn't, when replaced by another observable fact of objective reality.

Carl Sagan explored the human perception of truth, fact, and objective reality in his book, Dragons of Eden.

[Think. Again.]

78. Excellent point, thank you.

[Cha]

81. No, This is All On Fucking HAMAS..

Link to tweet

[lapucelle]

16. Gazan civilians are being scrificed by Hamas. It has been part of their plan since at least 2008.

What is Hamas's plan? To establish an authoritarian theocracy to rule over the Palestinian people.

Oh, and the destruction of Israel with the concomitant slaughter of as many Jews as possible.

Hamas’ use of human shields in Gaza

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

[Think. Again.]

19. The weapons hitting Gaza...

...are Israeli weapons.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

37. Hamas could end it

Wonder why they don’t?

[Think. Again.]

39. You trust hamas to do the right thing?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

41. Nope

Which is why Israel shouldn’t stop.

You seem to acknowledge that Hamas won’t stop attacking Israel, but you expect Israel to stop attacking Hamas?

[Think. Again.]

43. I never said that...

...I said Israel should stop attacking innocent, non-hamas civilians.

And yes, I agree with the Biden administration that more surgical strategies to take out only hamas members is not only possible but preferable.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

44. Israel isn't attacking

Innocent civilians, but of course you already know that.

[Think. Again.]

46. Apparently we live in 2 different realities.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

47. Apparently

I’m able to distinguish between attacking innocent civilians and attacking terrorists who embed themselves with innocent civilians.

[Think. Again.]

48. but you are not able...

...to distinguish the difference between killing your enemy and killing everyone who might be near your enemy.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

51. Sure I can

But that’s the nature of war. Israel’s first responsibility is to its own citizens, just as Hamas, as the government of Gaza, is responsible for the Palestinians there. Just because Hamas abandons their responsibility doesn’t mean that Israel should abandon theirs.

[Think. Again.]

52. I see...

...and you think the only way Israel can protect it's citizens is by carpet-bombing the citizens of another city.

Got it.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

53. They aren't carpet bombing

Another often misused word here, along with genocide and apartheid.

[inthewind21]

71. Huh

So what was Israels "responsibility" to it's citizens on October 7th? A question you seem to completely overlook. I just heard Netanyahu talk about defeating "The axis of evil" . Failed/ignored warnings of an attack followed by talk of eliminating the axis of evil right after launching a ground offensive. Where have I seen/heard THAT before?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

72. I'm not overlooking it

I agree that it was a massive failure on the part Israeli security (IDF, intel, etc.). That doesn't mean that Israel should sit back now and do nothing.

Hamas can end this today - hand over the hostages and surrender. Done.

[yagotme]

62. Except for at least one we know about...

Remember the hospital rocket???

[FHRRK]

6. Need help with your logic

A Hamas leader sitting in Qatar, who deserves a Cruise missile up his ass, advocates for slaughter of Palestines in Gaza.

So the proper response is?

[lapucelle]

14. Exactly what "logic" do you need help with?

Welcome to DU!

[yardwork]

30. Astroturfed is an accurate way to put it.

The antisemitism and disinformation are being pushed by the same people who are "concerned" about our support for. Ukraine.

What a surprise. Not.

[PJMcK]

4. Please correct me if I'm wrong

It seems to me that the Arab nations don’t care in the least about the Palestinian people. None of those countries (except maybe Egypt) have ever offered sanctuary to these oppressed people.

It seems to me that the Arab world uses the Palestinians as pawns in their larger conflict with Israel and the West. Publicly, they cry crocodile tears for these oppressed people. In fact, they’ve done nothing to help the Palestinians.

The people in Gaza, as well as those in the West Bank, live in terrible conditions. Their future is bleak. It’s horrible that these civilians are trapped in an unending conflict.

Haniyeh is a war criminal. I hope his time is limited.

[FalloutShelter]

7. This is exactly correct.

[Wingus Dingus]

25. These are my impressions too. The Palestinians are useful cudgels against Israel.

Both in terms of human shields and in terms of victimization and sympathy, to generate permanent anger against Israelis. They want them there to keep Israel off balance and threatened in perpetuity. They need to put up (give sanctuary to fleeing Palestinians so that Israel can take out Hamas) or shut up. But they won't.

[czarjak]

8. Axis Of Evil

[gulliver]

9. The sound reminds me of Hitler. The words, if translated correctly, do too. nt

[brer cat]

10. Pure evil. The world would be better off without such "leaders."

The poor in Gaza are being used, not helped.

[mcar]

13. This needs to be shown far and wide

[Sympthsical]

15. Hamas pushes civilians in front of the missiles

And we have people, "Why is Israel targeting them?!"

Like, I can't even. How does this work on people?

It only works when one is willing for it to work. And if one is willing, I have some questions.

Actually, no. I have some assumptions.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

22. I don't have questions anymore

I’m all in on assumptions now…when people repeatedly show you who they are, believe them.

[Sympthsical]

24. Yep

How many times in how many different ways do people you're promoting and supporting have to call for the destruction of Israel before you ask, "Should I be allying with this?" And allying is the most forgiving word I'm willing to use for it. There are obvious actors who are much less charitable in their intentions.

At some point, it becomes folly to extend the benefit of the doubt. There's patience and there's naivete. I was never the latter, and I'm all out of the former.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

26. Just discovered

another denier regarding the "from the river to the sea" chant …"that doesn't mean the destruction of Israel"

It''s mindboggling.

[Sympthsical]

27. Maybe they mean the Sacramento River

Maybe they just want to chill in Napa.

Who doesn't want to live in wine country? I live here. It's lovely.

It's possible all these protestors just really love a good chardonnay.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

28. Now, now

You said you didn’t suffer from naïveté 😂😂

[ismnotwasm]

21. This is literally who Hamas is. They are not freedom fighters

They are terrorists and absolute bigots.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

29. Hamas is using residents of Gaza as human shields

[SickOfTheOnePct]

31. But that's Israel's fault, don't you know

If those pesky Jews had just stayed in Europe after they were very nearly annihilated during the Holocaust, none of this would be happening.

It’s all their fault, as is ever the case.



It’s been eye- opening to see how easily people can be turned against Jews…just throw out some lies, some propaganda, and voila! we’re back in 1930s Germany.

[albacore]

32. Only one winner there....

[Cheezoholic]

33. This is how our Ordained Speaker and his ilk

want this country to behave against several groups of people. I think if our Ordained Speaker and his ilk pulled the purse strings of power the entire area including the Israelis would be bombed into submission of JFC.

[lapucelle]

34. What's JFC? N/T

[Iggo]

50. Jesus Fucking Christ. (n/t)

[Cha]

45. Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh-Fucking ASSHOLE.

Somehow I could just tell without even knowing what this Shithead had to spew.

[Iggo]

49. I never doubted Hamas is shit.

Now watch me believe multiple true things at the same time.

[lapucelle]

54. I would hazard a guess that pretty much everyone believes "multiple true things at the same time".

As for the rest...

- Exactly how does one person watch someone else believe something?

- I don't take directives from strangers on the internet.