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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMassive misinformation campaign against Israel.
I'm not Jewish. I'm not an expert on the Middle East. I've been critical of the Israeli government. There's a lot I don't know, but I know antisemitism when I see it. I'm seeing antisemitism and an anti-Israeli disinformation campaign that seems to be coordinated. The minute Hamas attacked Israeli citizens - in a shockingly brutal terrorist attack in which victims were gang raped, tortured in public, paraded naked in front of mobs - an anti-Israeli propaganda campaign took off across the globe. I happen to know some folks affiliated with the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). Their social media rhetoric instantly ramped up against Israel. Not even a pause. Coordinated. We're seeing it on DU.
I can connect some dots but I'll leave that to others. Im here to witness what I'm seeing.
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edisdead
(3,396 posts)What it reminded me of was when a bunch if school children get blown away the NRA starts spouting off about guns and gun sales go through the roof.
Never miss an opportunity to advance your agenda through tragedy… Especially if you are the one complicit in the tragedy!
Response to yardwork (Original post)
BootinUp This message was self-deleted by its author.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)I didn't notice any of your posts. 
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)and trump gave vital secret Israeli intelligence to the russians and US intelligence to MBS.
The only reason that some repukes (like our new House Speaker) is against funding Ukraine is because Trump told him to be against it... and Putin owns Trump.
Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)MOMFUDSKI
(7,080 posts)thingy will come out in the orange menace trial in NY this week when the kids will be answering questions about $$$ under oath.
Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)Too many windows in tall buildings in NYC.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)The invasion of Ukraine is going poorly for Putin. Trump is doing poorly. The 2024 U.S. election looks like it might not go Putin's way.
Stirring up divisiveness, turning Democrat against Democrat, creating an unsolvable problem for Biden - these all help the chaos agents. What better wedge issue than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? So divisive. So muddy and unclear, so easy to spread disinformation. And so easy to tap into deeply embedded long-held antisemitic tropes.
What a nightmare. It's like 2016 and Brexit again.
How in the world does it make sense that Hamas would attack so heinously a country that is 1000 times stronger, knowing that it would piss them off so much? Why would any country do that? Sounds like Putin/Wagner. Is Pregozhyn really dead?
OrangeJoe
(559 posts)To answer your question the Palestinians are desperate at the steady erosion of what was supposed to be their homeland. Bibi is on record saying he's not going to do a 2 state solution. While clearly the attack by Hamas was heinous why is it that anyone commenting on this has to immediately disavow Palestinian atrocities, and this was certainly one of the worst ones, but defenders of Israel do not have to ritually condemn Israel's illegal settlements, police and settler violence and apartheid policies every time they comment?
Goddessartist
(2,176 posts)Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)Relentless, highly coordinated propaganda attack on Israel beginning almost immediately
after the brutal terrorist attack.
And the brutal highly coordinated terrorist attack that was obviously way above Hamas competency level.
Israel has one of the best intelligence organizations in the world, but were blindsided.
Huge closely aligned connecting dots from day one.
Even a toddler could put this puzzle together.
MOMFUDSKI
(7,080 posts)stay out of prison.
Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)
enid602
(9,685 posts)Did Pregozjin REALLY die in that plane crash?
Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)So he could then go and blow up the Middle East?
Or Putin faked it to provide cover for Priggy?
The Hamas attack was so big and successful that is could have only been
done by a state actor, so I would rule out Priggy acting out on his own.
Quakerfriend
(5,882 posts)Thousands swarmed Columbia’s campus within just a few hours-
then NYU, Berkley and Cornell. I find it interesting that this has happened in very liberal enclaves only. Why didn’t this happen when Putin rolled into Ukraine??? - I suspect it’s because Putin’s creating the chaos.
Irish_Dem
(81,266 posts)He must get the US to stop supporting and funding Zelensky.
Putin is our enemy and waging a superb psy-op war against the US.
I don't understand why people cannot see this. It is right in front of our faces.
JudyM
(29,785 posts)Russia and Iran have been getting increasingly chummy. Meetings shortly before the massacre, too, IIRC.
OrangeJoe
(559 posts)We send billions of dollars and bombs to Israel every year. We don't fund the Russian army. So it makes perfect sense to protest Israel's war crimes because they are doing it with our support. Google how many times we've vetoed UN Resolutions on Israel's behalf.
questionseverything
(11,840 posts)Or rather bibi chose to ignore
Omnipresent
(7,450 posts)Israeli intelligence dropped the ball on protecting Israeli’s from such a vicious attack.
Has Bibi addressed this yet?
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Trump probably sold some of the documents. (Why did the Saudis give Jared $2B?) And we know that Trump owes Putin big so he probably funneled all kinds of intelligence to the Russians and their allies.
The Russian allies in the Middle East are Israel's enemies and would be delighted to get their hands on military intelligence.
The concerted propaganda campaign I'm talking about in the OP follows the same pattern as previous Russian-coordinated propaganda. See the post at the bottom of this thread.
blm
(114,658 posts)
comradebillyboy
(10,955 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)Anti-Israeli disinformation also went out instantly across gaming social networks.
I think it's a saturation campaign. It looks like anti-Israeli disinformation went out instantly across all the left-leaning social media networks and gaming social networks. I'm sure there are more I don't know about.
Those are the same networks that pushed anti-Hillary Clinton disinformation and pro-Brexit disinformation.
This time, there's an effort to convince Black and Indigenous Americans to sympathize with Palestinians and view Israelis as aggressive colonists.
I saw an OP on DU with a video equating the Irish Troubles with Palestinians.
These are all misrepresentations of a complicated situation. It's a global attempt to create an evil "bad guy" (using age-old antisemitic tropes) and oppressed, innocent "good guys." The situation is far more complicated than that - but there's a coordinated PR effort misrepresenting it.
I think the goal is to create chaos and wound democracy worldwide, including influencing the 2024 U.S. election.
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)I noticed the shifting views towards Palestinian terrorism starting in the late 90s with the advent of the Internet. A friend worked at the ADL at the time, and he was combatting online misinformation constantly. These terrorists have figured out how to use YouTube, social media, and now TikTok to spread their anti-Semitism to mass audiences - and it's working. This is the same as those morons who packed up and headed off to join Isis after watching videos on social media. Target teenage TikTokers who have no concept of what the actual history is, share fake videos, throw in some cool buzz words like "colonizers!" maybe post a link to some site to buy keffiyehs to support the "cause," teach them chants like "From the River to the Sea" and voila!
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Hamas has help, I'm sure.
AnrothElf
(923 posts)White tankies wearing keffiyehs goes back to the Occupy days and before.
It's pathetic. A dead give-away that nobody in THAT MOB is to be taken seriously. Just angry and ignorant.
The horseshoe is real. It's the same crowd as the Bernie or Busters.
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)If it didn't mean I supported terrorism, I'd probably own one.
SouthernDem4ever
(6,619 posts)on the evils of Israel. They were very organized and really doing a propaganda campaign. Looks like nothing's changed.
wnylib
(26,014 posts)sure was quick to jump onto the bandwagon.
brer cat
(27,587 posts)and I believe Putin is behind it.
dalton99a
(94,119 posts)It's as though the Hamas atrocities never happened
FWIW Hamas killed hostages:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/09/israel-hamas-hostage-death/
Video shows apparent death of Israeli hostages in Hamas custody
By Meg Kelly and Sarah Cahlan
October 9, 2023 at 2:29 p.m. EDT
walkingman
(10,864 posts)is much easier to spread phoney propaganda by both domestic and foreign sources.
It works. I am confident without social media and foreign interference in 2016 we would have never had a Trump presidency and the same goes for January 6 insurrection.
With the Ukrainian war and now the Israel war as a backdrop to our upcoming 2024 elections I suspect it will get really ugly.
It is more important than ever that we stick to our Democratic ideals and not be lead down the rabbit hole by these bad actors.
The GOP knows the only way they can maintain power is to divide us - we can't let that happen.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Now THAT made me spit my coffee out. Nothing like noticing the barn door open long AFTER the horses have bolted! 
walkingman
(10,864 posts)
Celerity
(54,407 posts)Geoffrey Hinton, known to many as the “Godfather of AI,” recently made headlines around the world after leaving his job at Google to speak more freely about the risks posed by unchecked development of artificial intelligence, including popular tools like ChatGPT and Google’s PaLM. Why does he believe digital intelligence could hold an advantage over biological intelligence? How did he suddenly arrive at this conclusion after a lifetime of work in the field? Most importantly, what – if anything – can be done to safeguard the future of humanity? The University of Toronto University Professor Emeritus addresses these questions and more in The Godfather in Conversation.
Celerity
(54,407 posts)AI distribution into the wild) into the mix. AI is an exponential force multiplier in the disinfo arena.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...have you happened to notice a misinformation campaign targeting non-hamas Palestinians?
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)Nevermind.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)How cryptic.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)and involved in a Putin-led conspiracy. Yes, I do think Putin is involved in the conflict and cheering. But this is a complicated issue with a long history, many innocent civilian casualties, and no good solutions.
Really, stop accusing people with consciences of being anti-semitic or involved in conspiracies. You are helping Putin divide America.
The real anit-semites are happily cheering on the Israeli war and ready to hand Ukraine to Putin.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)
Redleg
(6,922 posts)While I believe this is a just cause for war for Israel I have expressed concerns about disproportionate non-combatant casualties. The reply that I usually get on these forums is some form of "this is war and innocent people die in war."
To be clear, I have not accused Israel of war crimes or of callous disregard for non-combatants but have merely expressed my concern about how they might conduct their military operations.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)If you aren't engaging in antisemitic talk or behavior, then your conscience is clear. If you aren't (deliberately or inadvertently) helping to spread false propaganda, good for you.
(Examples of antisemitic talk include insisting that "from the mountains to the sea" is just like MLK's speech about letting freedom ring, rather than a call to wipe out Israel. (If you don't think Israel should exist, say so! Some American Jews don't agree with the creation of Israel. That's a policy issue.) Other antisemitic tropes include characterizing Israel as Nazis. Accusing Israel of conducting "genocide" is an antisemitic dog whistle. Use of terms like "bloodlust" and "bloodthirsty" to describe Israel echoes age-old antisemitic tropes. I've seen all of these and more on DU lately. And I think these phrases are being promoted by outside influences.)
I have no problem with criticism of Israel's policies or actions as long as they aren't wrapped in antisemitic tropes and as long as the criticism is based on actual facts, not misinformation. I speak only for myself and my OP.
Finally, I don't think it divides us to point out that we're being inundated with misinformation by bad actors. We're already divided. Recognizing that this is happening again - as it did in 2016, as it did with Brexit - can help bring us back together as a united team.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)theory that you don't define, your only evidence being some people reacted too fast, concerns me. What is the conspiracy and who is involved? I just see different factions responding differently (and people within some factions, like the Democratic Socialists of America which you painted with one brush which is quite divided on this issue). I don't see a conspiracy unless you are talking about Putin who is always conspiring against America and may be succeeding here.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)As I've said in some follow-up posts, this is way bigger than DSA. I mentioned them because I have personal connections there, as well as with gaming sites, so this was some evidence I've observed personally.
What I'm saying is that it appears to me that there was a planned, coordinated PR blitz that went out in support of Palestine and against Israel - not coincidentally using age-old antisemitic tropes to stir up people's emotions - the day after 10/7. The same images, phrases, and talking points appeared simultaneously, just about everywhere, immediately after Israel was attacked. Social media, news media, college organizations, progressive groups - bang, they all got the same message. There's an article linked in this thread with evidence of bots pushing out this propaganda.
It's my opinion that Putin, in concert with billionaires and other bad actors, helped coordinate and implement this campaign, just as they did to influence the 2016 election, Brexit, and other elections. It is a conspiracy. The owners of social media are either in on it or useful tools. Everybody in the conspiracy has a simple goal: money and power.
I have close personal connections to DSA and gamers. I love them; they're good people. They vote for Democrats. But they, like people on Facebook and Twitter and in college clubs, are vulnerable to outside agitators and bad actors infiltrating to spread propaganda. That's what I'm seeing.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)either in the planning or the attack or propaganda after, more likely both. if our democracy survives we'll discover someday that he has been more deeply involved in our politics than we can imagine.
Republicans are increasingly tools for Putin's propaganda, whether on purpose or unwittingly (their leaders aren't very smart)
I think we should be careful not to assume that most people responding to the situation are knowingly part of Putin's conspiracy.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)That's how propaganda works.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)3 weeks of killing almost 4000children, most of the world is against Israel. Did you forget, most every Palestinian has a phone to record what’s happening & thousands of Images of dead and injured babies are being seen by the WHOLE world everyday. How is this fake news.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)People have been concerned about war crimes committed by Hamas against Gazans for the last 15 years.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)of them
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)
Cha
(319,076 posts)
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,645 posts)
Cha
(319,076 posts)🕯️🕊️💙🌊
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...what sea lioning is?
It's uncomfortable to accused of something that seems to be some kind of insider joke...
Edit to add:
Nevermind, I just read the definitions further down thread.
I hope everyone noticed that my single question, being a single question and not a repetitive circular type thnk, doesn't qualify as sealioning, but I do recognize it now from many other posters who have harrassed me using that method.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)Relevant question, relevant point. This thread proves we don't agree here on an established set of facts.
betsuni
(29,078 posts)
(second time today you made me laugh, thanks)
JoseBalow
(9,488 posts)
Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.
If you’ve been sealioned in real life or online, you’ll feel like every argument is cyclical. You make a point, only for the sea lion to storm in asking for proof of what you said. Your expertise and knowledge are denied. It’s your job to go out of your way to convince them, even though they’re the one who questioned you in the first place.
— Jessica Lindsay, Metro UK, 5 July 2018
Even when sealioning is recognized, responding suitably can be difficult. There are no clear norms for handling it—advice tends to simply suggest "Don’t feed the troll." While this may allow an individual to navigate the moment, it doesn’t address broader effects on trust and learning.
— Amy Johnson, Perspective on Harmful Speech Online, August 2017
Sealioning is when an uninvited stranger pops into your conversation and peppers you with unsolicited and insincere questions. The sealion politely demands evidence for even the most mundane or self-evident statements and insists that you justify your opinions until he's satisfied—which he never is, since he's asking questions in bad faith. The sealion is basically the self-appointed "good cop" in an interrogation for a crime you didn't commit.
— Anita Sarkeesian, Marie Claire, 20 Feb. 2015
radicalleft
(576 posts)I must admit, I was lost there for a minute...
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)
DET
(2,499 posts)Well, you learn something new every day. 
Hekate
(100,133 posts)
Cha
(319,076 posts)Cha
(319,076 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)I'm aware of the frequent refrain "don't equate Hamas with Palestine" but that seems to be a rather disingenuous oversimplification.
I'm not an expert on I/P history but I will say this: Hamas is as much a leader of the Palestinian government as Netanyahu is a leader of the Israeli government. I'm sure that many people living there don't agree with "their" leaders, just as many Americans didn't agree with Trump. One of the horrors of war is that entire nations suffer when their leaders go to war. Ordinary people suffer the most.
Using antisemitic tropes to blame one side entirely while casting the other side as innocents is a misrepresentation of the I/P conflict.
LeftInTX
(34,294 posts)"They are responsible for their own deaths"
"They are refusing to evacuate", (Same stuff that was said about hurricane Katrina)
"Certainly they can build an army field hospital".
"It only takes a few minutes to evacuate a hospital"
"They elected Hamas, so they deserve this"
"Hamas is running the UN"
____
Keep in mind, the American right has a much larger mouthpiece than DSA and fringe groups. The American right is extremely Pro-Israel.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)LeftInTX
(34,294 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)As we saw in 2016.
Redleg
(6,922 posts)I suppose they could be conservative trolls or Russian trolls or just plain trolls.
wnylib
(26,014 posts)It's been a long time interest of mine and one reason why I studied languages and anthropology and taught English to English language learners as well as tutoring American born English speakers from disadvantaged backgrounds who were preparing for college. I'm accustomed to American English regional and ethnic/racial dialects, different uses of English between Americans, Canadians, British, and Australians, and patterns of English among ELL (aka ESL) students.
I have seen OPs that have some consistent language patterns. I asked one OP poster where he/she studied English when I recognized some phrases that were understandable, but had syntax irregularities, combined with consistent dropping of articles where English uses them but Slavic languages don't. The response was a vague reference to "people who look like me," trying to imply an ethnic or racial "dialect" of American English.
English speakers from birth phrase things awkwardly sometimes, too, or make grammatical and spelling mistakes. We have regional or ethnic/racial dialect speech in the US, too. But they have patterns that identify them as regional, ethnic/racial, or just someone struggling to get their thoughts out. Not the same as someone pushing a divisive view with patterns of speech that resemble some Amazon product descriptions by a foreign manufacturer.
One promoter of the false analogy between Native Americans and Palestinians, who presents as an American, self-identified to me as an American enrolled in a Native tribe whose history has always been exclusively within the boundaries of what is now the US. The poster's English is good, but he/she uses only Canadian idioms in reference to his/her supposed American tribal membership issues.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...that you are claiming is a disingenuous oversimplification.
The Palestinian people do not equal hamas.
The Jewish people do not equal Israeli government.
And I have to add that I have seen quite a lot of anti-Palestinian misinformation, for years, as well as quite a lot of anti-Jewish misinformation for a lot longer than that.
I have also noticed that some people are intentionally confusing the issue by conflating civilians with government bodies, and I find that to be a form of misinformation about all four groups.
So I agree that using antisemitic tropes to blame one side entirely while casting the other side as innocents, or using anti-Palestinian tropes to blame one side entirely while casting the other side as innocents, is a misrepresentation of the I/P conflict.
I have been framing all of my statements to clearly express whether I am speaking about hamas or Palestinian/Gaza civilians, as well as whether I am speaking about Israel or Israeli citizens.
It's the best I can do.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)blaming all Americans for what Trump has done. At least we had an election which (so far) has removed Trump from power. Palestinians can't do that with Hamas. There is danger Netanyahu will end Democracy in Israel.
I blame Netanyahu and Hamas for all that has happened, no civilians on either side. You can imagine anti-semetic tropes or conspiracies in that, if it makes you feel better.
I hope no one ever bombs the US for the crazy things Trump is likely to do if he ever takes over.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(12,744 posts)Bingo
PCIntern
(28,367 posts)It’s insidious and planned in advance of any incident.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,373 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)Some people make their living by knowingly spreading propaganda. Others do it for free, as dupes.
sheshe2
(97,627 posts)I agree, yardwork.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)I have a bad feeling about this.
sheshe2
(97,627 posts) 
bigtree
(94,261 posts)...directed against this political group that you obviously oppose.
Ostensibly in support of Israel, full of inflammatory imagery which I suppose is meant to represent the things you oppose about these people.
Just awful conflation and a one-sided attack on the enemies of Israel you've conjured up in your own head.
Not exactly informing.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)I thought I was clear, but I'll restate: I personally see evidence of disinformation being pushed by DSA and gamer sites. Full stop. This is my opinion. No need for attribution or citations.
bigtree
(94,261 posts)...just sayin'.
Broad brushed opinionating.
It's as if you're carrying on a conversation we aren't fully privy to.
And it's inflammatory. We need more light and less heat on this conflict, from Americans.
I'm going to give this one a hide, yw.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)bigtree
(94,261 posts)...can you see that there is opinionating from both sides which is inflammatory and misinforming?
I don't see where DSA is some major influence or even one of the worst propagandists on this conflict, not to mention one with any significant influence on actions or events at all.
The people I'd pay attention to are the ones actually directing action or events, like our respective governments and what they're communicating. That's far more consequential than what some political org. posts on the internet.
Moreover, highlighting DSA looks to be a U.S. political grudge match which is no stranger here at DU, so it didn't have the same import to me when I read your caution about some nefarious ideas being spread on this site that supposedly originates in Russia, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, these misinforming influences exist on the internet. They aren't restricted to DSA. Many of them come from Israel, a completely different country than most of us here live in.
It just seems odd portraying a conflict to Americans that has seen atrocities committed by both Hamas militants and the Israeli military as some kind of loyalty test, often accompanied by these devastating images of dead civilians on either side of the divide as justification for the animus and urging on to more destabilizing violence.
That's the view most of us in the U.S. have been witness to for decades and decades. There isn't likely going to be total unanimity among Americans to what many believe is a self-perpetuating conflict because of the wanton violence and civilian deaths.
I recognize that Israel's supporters in this country want a consensus of sympathy from the nation's citizens to go with the unwavering support for Israel that's seen no exception from the current WH.
I don't think there should be an expectation that support will be automatic from the population, or that the unwavering position of our government is some sort of fealty on the behalf of our countryfolk.
We're not Israel, not even close. We have our own political system that determines the course of our government's response which depends on active voices which are expected to reconcile difference and disagreements, not to simply cast opposition as enemies or subversive and rally against them.
It's a silly piffle to posit that the views of some political org. you disagree with is a pernicious threat to interests of which you're free in this country to express your own opinion. That's simply the nature of politics.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Your opinion is different. Ok.
Plus - Bibi's no slouch himself when it comes to troll farms and disinformation.
Especially when he's genociding people.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Cha
(319,076 posts)OP is talking about including DSA's Celebrating in Times Square the Day After the Hamas attack.
Congressman Leaves Democratic Socialists Of America For Promoting Pro-Palestinian Rally After Hamas Attack
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mollybohannon/2023/10/11/congressman-leaves-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-promoting-pro-palestinian-rally-after-hamas-attack/?sh=1c55eaed1621
AOC condemns pro-Palestine DSA rally in Times Square where Nazi symbol was flashed
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/aoc-condemns-pro-palestine-dsa-rally-in-times-square-where-nazi-symbol-was-flashed/ar-AA1hZJow
Great post, Cha.
Cha
(319,076 posts)
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)Add me to the witness list.
Ace Rothstein
(3,373 posts)You had groups protesting Israel (celebrating the attacks) literally the day after the attacks occurred.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)It seemed manufactured. Astroturfing.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)of Israeli foreign policy and government. But the world went into overdrive to dampen any sympathy for what happened to them--here, and in many other forums and places. If Sept. 11 happened, and within three days people everywhere were screaming for a cease fire with Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and flying Afghani flags (and downplaying what happened to the US), and shuttling members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban to high level diplomatic meetings like they were legitimate representatives of government and not psycho terrorists...wouldn't we have been stunned and heartbroken?
No normal person wants unaffiliated/innocent Palestinians hurt (same as no normal person wanted innocent Afghanis hurt)--but declarations of war come with an unavoidable price. You either kill your enemies trying to kill you, or you invite more attacks, your nation is crippled, and you cease to function. I'm sure that's what many Muslims and haters want to happen to Israel though.
I follow a blogger who is of Middle Eastern descent but is American, and she has posted exactly zero mention--sympathy or otherwise-- of what happened to Israelis, but daily plugs away with posts about the "atrocities" happening to her people and how can the world let this happen, blah blah. I am done following and reading her, out of sheer disappointment. I can't believe Americans--of all people-- can be this tribal, to not acknowledge and condemn acts of terrorism whenever it happens to ANYONE, whether you believe their policies or practices played a role or not. Rashida Tlaib, same disappointment: Her tribe first and always. Fuck that shit.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)No one is defending Hamas and I don't know a single person who doesn't want them completely destroyed. The concern is about civilians who haven't had a democratic voice in their government for years because Netanyahu opposes a Palestinian state.
My understanding is that the US invasion targeted the Taliban military and didn't carpet bomb the whole country. Nevertheless, there has been a great deal of concern expressed at civilian deaths in Afghanistan and especially Iraq since it wasn't even involved in 9/11.
You are lumping in Muslims with haters and equating desires for a cease-fire with wanting to cripple Israel. We may disagree on the solution, there may not be a good solution, but most people speaking up in good faith wish to reduce the carnage.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)began against Hamas was and is the equivalent of crippling Israel. Many in the Muslim world--not all, certainly, but many--do not want Israel to retaliate. That is why Hamas exists, and uses its civilian-shield tactics, to begin with--allows the Arab world (and Iran) to yell with moral indignation at Israel even when it's been bloodied. What they want is for Israel to do nothing, and absorb the blow. You will not convince me otherwise. And to absorb that blow without an answer and a defense would be extremely demoralizing for a people who have had to endure one of the greatest mass human atrocities ever recorded.
I hate seeing the death on both sides, but I have no dog in this fight--I am just an ordinary Catholic European American with no axe to grind so I think I'm being pretty impartial here. Just suddenly calling for peace after such an egregious attack on their citizens is tantamount to poking them in the eye. I hope they do their best to avoid gratuitous bloodshed and destruction, but I would never stop someone who took a bad punch from swinging back.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...those of us who are calling for Israel to not duplicate what hamas has done, and to use their resources to focus on taking out hamas without affecting innocent, non-hamas Palestinians (which is proscribed by international law).
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)ground invasion. Take out Hamas, but don't harm anyone's house, school, infrastructure, etc. Just because Hamas is hiding in all these areas is no excuse! Take out Hamas, but leave the lights and internet on so their communication remains unhampered. Take out Hamas, but leave the gates wide open for Hamas to leave, resupply and come back to fight you some more. Take out Hamas but also make sure they have food and water. Take out Hamas, while the leaders of Hamas sit in conference rooms in Qatar and Russia and are therefore untouchable. Yep, just take them out, it's easy. If you can't do that without hurting any Palestinians or wrecking anything, then just turn the other cheek, right?
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...your last sentence. Don't ever turn the other cheek.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)Or they will be attacked again and again.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...to abide by International law dictated by the Geneva Conventions.
So that's a choice that Israel would have to make.
I'm not a weapons export at all (and proudly not), but with the technology of 2023, I strongly suspect that everything you listed is very doable.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)to hold up "no civilian casualties" as a standard in this situation, because everyone knows that means Israel's hands are tied. Which is the whole point of Hamas.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)have not actually read the Geneva Conventions.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)lapucelle
(21,061 posts)In response to this:
- Take out Hamas, but leave the lights and internet on so their communication remains unhampered.
- Take out Hamas, but leave the gates wide open for Hamas to leave, resupply and come back to fight you some more.
- Take out Hamas but also make sure they have food and water.
You stated this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not what the document you linked to actually says. Where are these talking points coming from?
They don't come from international law, and they don't come from the Geneva Conventions.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)The response I made was to a different post than you just lied it was.
This is easily verified by scrolling upthread.
The post and my reply actually occured like this:
Or they will be attacked again and again.
My reply post 99: It would be the only way...
...to abide by International law dictated by the Geneva Conventions.
So that's a choice that Israel would have to make.
I'm not a weapons export at all (and proudly not), but with the technology of 2023, I strongly suspect that everything you listed is very doable.
Also the webpage I linked to is the Official UN page explaining 'War Crimes' and listing the Geneva Conventions definitions of 'War Crimes'. That page is found here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
So here's the thing, I learned a new phrase yesterday- "Sea-Lioning", it's a common practice of online trolls and what I believe you are currently attempting to do to me.
Please stop.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts) Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...where random crazy talk, sea-lioning, and outright lies happen?
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...proves me right?
Edit to add: Do you understand the progressive nature of discussion?
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)....you'll get it! Keep practicing!
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)Again, please stop.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)There is an ignore feature. Everyone is free to use it.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)..by the post I made of the UN 'war crimes' definitions.
Please stop, I believe you are sea-lioning me, and attempting to bait me into a response you are hoping I will give out of frustration with your lies and your misrepresentations of my posts as seen upthread.
Please. Stop.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)if it were to remain in compliance with the Geneva Conventions and international law is not supported by your link or by the Geneva Conventions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)..a listing of the 'War Crimes' definitions which comprise International laws and are referenced FROM the Geneva Conventions on the UNITED NATIONS website I linked TO.
I have asked you to stop misrepresenting my posts, and to stop 'seal-lioning' me (a common tactic of internet trolls) MULTIPLE TIMES and yet you continue, which is the very definition if 'sea-lioning'.
Please. Stop.
I am open to discussion, not victimization.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)Any claim that there is a peculiar set of overly specific conditions based on apocryphal international law that only Israel must follow is an error that needs to be corrected in the interest of ensuring that our community is and remains well-informed.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)completely misrepresented the posts I have made (which anyone can read above) while also claiming that the definitions of 'War Crimes' listed by the United Nations on their website are, as you put it:
" a peculiar set of overly specific conditions based on apocryphal international law that only Israel must follow..."
I don't understand what game you're playing, but please stop.
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)that Israel do the following:
- Take out Hamas, but leave the lights and internet on so their communication remains unhampered.
- Take out Hamas, but leave the gates wide open for Hamas to leave, resupply and come back to fight you some more.
- Take out Hamas but also make sure they have food and water.
------------------------------------------------------
I think it's equally clear that the assertion that fulfilling these requirements
is as best misinformed.
-------------------------------------------------------
Who benefits from talking points proscribing absurd conditions for the conduct of war on Israel and Israel alone?
Cui bono?
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)The day after the massacre, operatives and useful idiots were demanding the reinstatement of the ceasefire Hamas had broken the day before.
GuppyGal
(1,748 posts)DET
(2,499 posts)For your well-written, realistic assessment of the situation in this and subsequent posts. I’m not Jewish either (although my husband and son are) and I’ve been highly critical of Netanyahu in the past. Like many others, I’ve been highly conflicted about the ‘right’ course of action after October 7, especially when there are no good options. It really helps to consider how our country would handle a similar attack (it would get real ugly real fast). Americans are quick to impose the moral high ground on other countries when we have little to lose ourselves.
The media really need to be more even handed in their coverage of this situation. It almost feels like the original atrocities didn’t happen. Instead of the constant easy appeal to raw emotion, it would help if the press would inform people of the history of the Mideast and the cultural issues at play here.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)Even worse than TV (and with even less historical context) is whatever's filtering down to young people thru TikTok and other social media. There's no referees or guardrails or fact checkers in social media. People my age (I'm in my 50's) were still fairly close generationally to WW2, Hitler and the Holocaust because of our parents and grandparents. Thus I am still sensitive to the fallout from that atrocity because we learned about it in school, saw it depicted in movies and TV, saw museums and monuments built, saw people like Wiesel write and speak, watched Germany and Europe in general wrestle uncomfortably with its past. We knew people who were THERE--they were OLD, but they lived in those times. In my childhood and teen years, it was still being dissected as a recent historical event with many sad lessons: how did this happen, why did it happen?
Maybe it seems like ancient history for young people today, or at least not relevant...or they're not even aware of it.
DET
(2,499 posts)I don’t know what young people are being taught about history today, but I suspect it’s not balanced - especially in the red states. Some may not being taught anything about the Holocaust, which is tragic. And who knows what they’re getting on social media.
I grew up around lots of Jews in the small liberal resort town where I was raised and I didn’t really see overt antisemitism, although I would imagine that they did. It wasn’t until I married my husband that I became more aware of the issue. His mother was a court reporter at the Nuremberg war trials. Much to my regret, she never talked much about it. Most of my husband’s extended family and another Jewish family they grew up with moved to the DC area during the war. We used to get together every Thanksgiving. I remember one time someone asked ‘What do you think is the most important issue in the country?’ and the older generation agreed it was antisemitism. I was shocked - that would have never crossed my mind. I guess we’re all a product of our times.
We really need to teach our kids better. Most kids don’t seem to be taught much about American history and civics, let alone the history and cultures of other countries. The old adage “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” hits close to home today with the worldwide increase in fascism and antisemitism. It certainly doesn’t help that our new Speaker of the House doesn’t believe in evolution. 
JI7
(93,616 posts)If you even go back to anti Iraq war protests they would always end up being about anti Israel.
Many left leaning groups have had people get involved whose main thing was being anti israel. It's a strategy. the women's marches in more recent times are an example .
GreenWave
(12,641 posts)Since the Holocaust took place in Europe, where is their never again response?
LeftInTX
(34,294 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)I think Egypt, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are the ones who aren't helping. It's clear that they'd be happy to see Israel wiped off the map ("from the mountains to the sea" ). I doubt they'd let Palestinians live there in peace. That region would be "annexed" immediately. Mission accomplished.
xmas74
(30,058 posts)If Israel were completely destroyed then what's next? Not Palestine as its own nation. Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Saudi will immediately annex it. Maybe even Qatar since Hamas lives there in luxury.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)I've stayed out of this for years, because I don't agree with things Israel has done (and neither do some American Jews), but at the same time, it's been clear all my life that there are plenty of people who would like to see Israel wiped out. That's why Israel has such a strong military and why voters there keep electing hard-right leaders.
xmas74
(30,058 posts)May 15,1948 the armies of 5 ME countries descended upon the area formerly known as Mandatory Palestine, throwing Israel into its first war.
Do I agree with everything Israel does? Absolutely not. Do I understand it? To a point, yes. When the majority of your population worldwide was annihilated and less than 48 hours after declaring yourself a nation you're immediately under attack? They operate in fear.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Lots of Americans genuinely believe that Israel came in as an invading army and took the land away from Palestinians. They see the situation from the lens of New World colonization.
xmas74
(30,058 posts)We can make the argument that it's because its the "Promise Land" but equal arguments can be made that European nations and the United States didn't want to give up any of their lands. 20th Century locations included what is now Guyana, Alaska and a few locations in Australia.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,211 posts)...
SCHMITZ: Well, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has been very firm in his opinion that Israel has a right to defend itself. But that's the extent of his comments. He also supported the European Union's stance released last week in a communique that called for, quote, "humanitarian pauses" in the conflict so that people in Gaza could receive humanitarian assistance. The EU is one of the biggest funders of aid to the Palestinian territories, and Germany gives around $20 million a year. So this is a priority, too, for Germany. But Germany, also, like the U.S., sells weapons to Israel, weapons that are now being used against Palestinians.
...
SCHMITZ: I think it's probably strengthening Germany's position in defending Israel. There are several European leaders that have spoken out against Israel's cutting off of water and supply lines to Gaza. But Chancellor Olaf Scholz has refrained from this criticism. Instead, he says that Israel is a democratic state guided by humanitarian principles. And because of that, he believes the Israeli army will also observe the rules that follow international laws. So, you know, this view sounds, to some, probably a little naive, and it's definitely a bit isolated when compared to the view of other EU leaders. And it's rooted really in Scholz's cautious approach to Israel that is really guided by what he sees as Germany's historic responsibility towards Israel.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/30/1209529055/where-britain-france-and-germany-stand-on-the-israel-hamas-war
xmas74
(30,058 posts)Malala because she sides with Israel against Hamas.
LymphocyteLover
(9,847 posts)Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)I feel the same way.
Cha
(319,076 posts)LymphocyteLover
(9,847 posts)Is there a trick to getting tweets displayed like that?
Cha
(319,076 posts)of it.. Go to your link and click on the Date under the Tweet with right side .. Then Click "Copy Link" & bring it back here.. Voila!!
Link to tweet
LymphocyteLover
(9,847 posts)
Cha
(319,076 posts)betsuni
(29,078 posts)
live love laugh
(16,383 posts)Hamlette
(15,556 posts)In the olden times, there were always discussions about a proportional response to the violence, and for the most part there was. But since Netanyahu we quietly whisper it under our breaths but it doesn't always happen. It happened at the moment Hamas attacked Israeli citizens because we knew what was coming.
When I first saw the evidence of the Hamas attack I said "what makes people do this?" The world is messed up, we contributed to some of the messes but certainly not all. It didn't start on October 7, it didn't start with Hitler, I don't expect any of us will live to see the end of it.
This is not antisemitic. This is anti Netanyahu. He's not helping.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)To be clear, I don't mean to say that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
slightlv
(7,790 posts)especially where terrorists are involved, is the truth. Truth is nuanced. War isn't.
Redleg
(6,922 posts)Terrorist groups don't harness the full power of the state so they find other ways to influence the outcomes. I wouldn't doubt that the trolls at Putin's troll farm aren't working overtime to spread the bullshit. The sad thing is that we will fall for some of the bullshit, depending on our prior beliefs about Israel, the Palestinians, Hamas, etc.
mcar
(46,056 posts)
Diraven
(1,898 posts)I think perhaps you underestimate how fast information moves these days. And how ubiquitous equally fast moving disinformation is on the Internet about every controversial subject. It's drifting into conspiracy theory land to call it a "campaign".
yardwork
(69,364 posts)There's no question in my mind that a conspiracy of billionaires, including Putin, influenced the 2016 election to help elect Trump. The owners of social media platforms promoted this, either inadvertently or (as testimony to Congress made by whistleblowers indicated) deliberately, in return for favorable legislation that helped them make money.
The campaign - and it's been called a campaign by investigative journalists, academic researchers, and those testifying to Congress - used fake social media accounts to bombard people with similarly-phrased disinformation. We saw it on DU in 2016: the same words and phrases, used over and over, to accuse Hillary Clinton of crimes and promote Trump.
The same thing happened with Brexit and other elections around the world.
I'm saying that I'm seeing it again, and so are others.
SunSeeker
(58,283 posts)Who then argue that Israel should not go into Gaza because "two wrongs don't make a right."
As if Hamas' targeting of Israeli civilians and torturing women on video is the same as Israel defending itself.
Israel rooting out Hamas after a barbaric, sadistic attack is not a "wrong."
Plus, Israel gave weeks of warning before coming in, and is not targeting civilians, unlike Hamas.
AZLD4Candidate
(6,780 posts)political language.
Take out the word Israel and input the word Jew and it's the same rhetoric.
Ponietz
(4,330 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)I noticed that the examples they gave involved misinformation against Biden, such as this: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/verified-accounts-spread-fake-news-release-biden-8-billion-aid-package-rcna119372
I will say that I haven't seen too many people on DU deny that there is misinformation being spread. The problem is that even well-meaning people are being exposed to misinformation. It's insidious. Proof like this helps!
Ace Rothstein
(3,373 posts)These were refugee camps decades ago but are now fully developed neighborhoods. They continue to call them refugee camps to play on people's emotions.
yagotme
(4,135 posts)The "refugee camp" that was recently bombed, had an awful lot of concrete buildings standing around. I was expecting tents, tin shacks, etc..
LetMyPeopleVote
(179,869 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)Frankly, I have been waiting to post this and given that clip I will now post what was sent to one of my younger brothers (a real Jew, unlike me according to one member here, because 50 years ago I converted), and it is this:
Also, if I haven't suggested them: People Love Dead Jews and Jews Don't Count.
betsuni
(29,078 posts)
Hekate
(100,133 posts)Thanks for posting this clip.
gulliver
(13,985 posts)...and virtuous. The person who suffered yesterday is a tenth as important as the person suffering now. The person suffering a hundred years from now is a tenth as important as a mouse.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)…and that’s shocking enough — but what’s been going on across DU, my actual online home for 21 years, is literally making me ill.
