Dozens killed at Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza

[JohnSJ]

"A huge explosion at the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza has reportedly killed dozens. Hamas officials have blamed an Israeli strike. The IDF is yet to comment.

The French news agency AFP has been at the scene in Jabalia after an explosion in the crowded refugee camp.
The agency says footage from the scene shows at least 47 bodies recovered from the rubble.

The Israeli military has not yet commented on the blast at the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza.

The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has blamed an Israeli air strike for the blast, saying at least 50 people were killed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

[stonecutter357]

1. K&R !

[claudette]

2. But didn't

Israeli spokesman say they don’t target civilians? Yeah. Right. 😠

[Beastly Boy]

3. Yes they did. So?

What did you find in the BBC report that makes you question this?

[JohnSJ]

5. Exactly

[claudette]

6. The health

Ministry in Gaza says otherwise. Or do you honestly believe Hamas bombed their own refugees? I don’t. What in that report makes you think it was NOT Israel who bombed it?

[Beastly Boy]

9. The totally discredited Hamas ministry says so... I am all ears!

They also said that Israel bombed a hospital causing 500 casualties, when in fact it was a stray Islamic Jihad missile bombed the hospital causing less than 100 casualties.

I am more inclined to take Pinocchio's word for what happened.

[womanofthehills]

21. The IDF already admitted the bombing

Last edited Tue Oct 31, 2023, 04:58 PM - Edit history (2)

And said they killed 50 militants.

They forgot to mention the hundreds of women & children they killed.

[Beastly Boy]

22. Let's start with the militants.

Last edited Tue Oct 31, 2023, 08:36 PM - Edit history (2)

Are you now accepting that the camp was a military target?

And the women and children: Did any independent party confirm their numbers to be in the hundreds? If so, I would appreciate a source other than the Hamas ministry. Second question: were any of these civilians targeted by Israel, or were they used as human shields by the 50 militants that were killed in the bombing?

[claudette]

31. The poster was

referring to the current bombing of a refugee camp.

[Beastly Boy]

50. So was I.

The poster was also referring to the 50 militants and women and children, presumably among casualties. And so was I.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

70. You know what?

People were killed. Do you think you could spare some compassion without labeling the dead?

If any civilian was used as a human shield, it obviously didn't work, and they are still DEAD.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

75. If the people using the human shields are still alive, then yes, it did work

And as long as useful idiots in the West aren't willing to condemn (or even acknowledge in some cases) that the terrorists are doing that, it proves that their propaganda is working.

[ExciteBike66]

117. One can condemn both the use of human shields...

And the bombing of those shields.

Even on their own terms, the bombing of civilians will not help the Israelis. Hatred cannot be fought with force, it can only result in more hatred...

[Beastly Boy]

80. You are absolutely right.

However, what I see and respond to are not calls for compassion for the dead. What I see is using the deaths to blame Israel.

My compassion for the dead would have been more pronounced were the deaths not brought up in the context of blaming Israel for them. And when I see an occasional compassionate post absent of any finger-pointing, overt or implied, I respond accordingly.

[Butterflylady]

107. Why not try BBC ?

[Beastly Boy]

119. Tried just that.

An Israeli air strike is reported to have killed dozens of people at Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza.

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said 50 people were killed and 150 wounded. But a nearby hospital said it received 400 casualties, including 120 dead.

--snip--

The Israeli military said the strike killed a senior Hamas commander and "underground terror infrastructure" beneath buildings collapsed afterwards.

It added that a "large number of terrorists" from Hamas's Central Jabalia Battalion who had been with the commander at the time were also killed.

https://www.aol.com/news/jabalia-israel-air-strike-reportedly-201048914.html

BBC clears up nothing

[obamanut2012]

45. The IDF just confirmed it

"The IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari has confirmed that Israeli fighter jets carried out the attack on the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza, which he said killed a senior commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure."

[Beastly Boy]

53. IDF confirmed targeting of of a seniot Hamas commander and Hamas underground tunnels.

If you are not challenging the accuracy of the IDF report, do you now concede that Israel hit a military target?

[sarisataka]

13. Yesterday we didn't believe the hospital that was bombed

Was being used by Hamas because that is what the IDF said.

Today the Health Ministry of Gaza (Hamas) says dozens were killed and that is accepted without question...

[obamanut2012]

47. IDF confirmed

"The IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari has confirmed that Israeli fighter jets carried out the attack on the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza, which he said killed a senior commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure."

[sarisataka]

55. So Hamas placed some kind of underground

Military installation under a refugee camp? I believe that is prohibited under Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention as it contravention the protected status of civilians.

[Happy Hoosier]

23. This wouldn't be the first time...

In this war that the terrorists inadvertently killed their own and blamed it on the Israelis.

Also these “camps” are not what people think of when they hear the word “camp.” They are fully urbanized parts of Gaza City.

But let’s not let facts get in the way of the campaign to vilify the Ebil Israelis just thirsty for the blood of innocents!!!

[Jedi Guy]

28. "...vilify the Ebil Israelis just thirsty for the blood of innocents!!!"

Well, how else are they supposed to make proper matzos?


The blood libel is alive and well in a different form, sadly, and so many people are buying into it. It's really disheartening.

[claudette]

29. Can you prove it

wasn't them?

[Jedi Guy]

32. Disproving a negative? That's not how it works.

Can you prove it was the IDF, and with something other than a statement from any ministry associated with Hamas?

Thus far, Hamas has made the assertion. There is no proof or evidence beyond that, to the best of my knowledge, and I'm not about to take Hamas at their word. Hard pass.

[claudette]

37. To each his oen belief

Hamas is bad but Israel is not perfect. No country is. Keep that in mind.

[Jedi Guy]

44. "Hamas is bad" is one hell of an understatement, you know.

And I never said Israel is perfect. In this case, though, I'm of the belief that they're waging a just war against a terrorist group that cheerfully uses their own people as human shields and would even more cheerfully massacre every Jew they can get their hands on.

That doesn't mean I'm happy that innocent Palestinians are dying. I'd prefer that no one got killed in conflict or war. Sadly, the reality of our world is that civilians die in every conflict, regardless of how much (or how little) each side of the conflict tries to avoid harming innocents. Liking reality is optional; accepting reality is mandatory.

In my estimation, Israel has shown more restraint than most countries would and is not deliberately setting out to kill civilians. That's far more than can be said for Hamas and its fellow travelers. Your mileage may vary, though.

[Redleg]

123. Time will tell

From my perspective it is too early to tell what the butcher's bill will be in terms of non-combatants. I hope the Israelis do use proper restraint and also find a way to neutralize Hamas. At this point, I am taking casualty reports with a grain of salt. There is too much heat and not enough light to know what's really going on. While I certainly don't trust information coming from Hamas, I don't reflexively believe everything the Netanyahu govt. flacks are telling us either.

For the record, I believe this is a just cause for war for Israel. I add this so as not to be confused for a Hamas apologist or anti-semite.

[claudette]

39. Sorry. Duplicate post

Hamas is bad but Israel is not perfect. No country is. Keep that in mind.

[Celerity]

49. Israel Confirms Deadly Strike On Jabalia Refugee Camp - BBC NEWS

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

[Jedi Guy]

51. From your link, emphasis mine:

The IDF says the strike killed a senior Hamas commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure.

If true, they struck a military target. Hamas knowingly and deliberately set up shop beneath the camp and used the people in Jabalia as human shields, which is on brand for them.

[claudette]

58. Yea. Here is proof

it was the IDF

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

[Jedi Guy]

63. And as I responded to Celerity, from that very link:

The IDF says the strike killed a senior Hamas commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure.

If true, they struck a military target rather than blowing up Jabalia for funsies.

Hamas knowingly and deliberately set up shop beneath the camp and used the people in Jabalia as human shields, which is on brand for them.

[NCWilm]

74. And....

So we should just right off all of the collateral damage (dead innocent people) that Israel killed? Oh well Hamas was under the camp, tough luck innocent peeps?

[Beastly Boy]

96. No, that's not how it goes.

Try this: Hamas got innocent people killed. They didn't have to do this. The blood is on their hands.

[NCWilm]

115. So

You're saying that Hamas = The Palestinian people?
So 5 year old kids should die because of terrorists?

Approx 1500 Israelis died in the terrorist attack

The UN says 10,000 plus Palestinians so far

[Beastly Boy]

122. I am saying no such thing, and I couldn't imagine why you would make this up.

You appear to be unclear about what I am saying. Let me repeat in in a more accessible way:
Hamas got innocent Palestinians killed. Hamas harbored their military targets under civilian structures. Hamas knew they will be targeted by Israel. Hamas knew where the civilians were. Hamas built the tunnels. Hamas positioned their military targets exactly where they wanted. Hamas committed war crimes in doing so. The blood of the Palestinian civilians is on Hamas' hands.

[NCWilm]

126. So you think Hamas is 100% at fault for their deaths?

Thank you for clear that up. However, Id slready gotten your point. I'm not msking anything up.....why I asked questions. Using this"?" little guy the question mark.

Hamas didn't "pull the trigger" though. Israel actually killed the Palestinians not Hamas. That's a crazy kind of logic you have.

Like saying after a bank robbery that it's the banks fault for killing the tellers even though the robbers pulled the trigger. The bank put them in harms way not the bank robbers. Those robbers were just defending themselves becsysrthe bank had foreclosed on their mortgages. Yes, the burden of the tellers deaths fall 100% upon the bank. Totally how the legal system works.

[The Magistrate]

127. A Much Closer Analogy, Sir

People robbing a bank take several customers in the place hostage to stand off police summoned to the scene. Police engage the robbers, a hostage is killed by police bullets. Surviving robbers are tried for murder: persons engaged in a felony are criminally liable for any death occurring in its course, even if none directly, or intentionally, caused that death.

[NCWilm]

135. Missing the point

Before I start, Imtuping this on a crappy phone so excusrthe spelling.

Both of those analogies are way off. We're speaking about the Palestinians here....they are the tellers that are being killed by Israeli bombings.

For your analogies to be accurate, Hamas would've had to have kidnapped the Palestinians.

Hamas didn't go somewhere, kidnap innocent Palestinians, take them to Gaza, and hold them hostage. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians as their government.

[The Magistrate]

136. You Don't want To Take The Point, Sir

Understandable, it's not a comfortable one from your point of view.


"Reality is that which, when one ceases to believe in it, persists."

[NCWilm]

137. Of course not

Why would I take a flawed point? Your logic in the point is incorrect and frankly grisly. Kill the hostage to get the bad guy? WTF?

[The Magistrate]

138. If You're In A Mood To Continue Providing Entertainment, Sir

Do, please, explain those flaws....

[NCWilm]

139. Welp there pard-ner

Check out the replies, I already have.

I suspect you're purposefully using flawed logic.

As such there's no point to continue this.

[The Magistrate]

140. Thank You For The Laugh, Sir

"Don't try and out-weird me. I get weirder things than you free in my breakfast cereal."

[NCWilm]

141. Oh no

The laughs were and are all from my side.

I'd love to tell the cops where you live that if you or a loved obe of yours is ever kidnapped...to just go ahead and kill your lived one to get the bad guy.

I'm still amazed (but someday wont be) at the idiocy of some people on here. Holy fucking shit.

[Beastly Boy]

130. To add to The Magistrte's analogy,

It would be analogous to the bank robbers taking the hostages off the street, bringing them to the bank and threatening to kill them if the robbers' demands weren't met. Then, police moving in and attempting to eliminate the threat from the robbers, and in the process intentionally killing the robbers and accidentally killing the hostages.

The intent and the threat to kill the hostages didn't come from the police, it came from the robbers. The police intended to eliminate the threat coming from the robbers, not to harm the hostages.

I don't see how anyone can have any doubts about the identity of the guilty party here.

[Happy Hoosier]

38. It may well have been them...

… but people like you just uncritically lap up Hamas propaganda and sanctimoniously post about here, facts and context be damned. For example none of the ISRAEL BAD contingent have pointed out that the Jabalia camp has been a center for Hamas activity for a long time.

Mentioning that would undermine the narrative.

[claudette]

40. Just like mentioning

that innocent people are there who are not connected to Hamas or the Oct 7 horor in Israel is ignored or ridiculously seen as anti semitism

[Happy Hoosier]

46. You're underselling yourself!

You are doing so much more than merely mentioning innocent victims. You promoting the Hamas narrative.

[claudette]

56. I certainly am not

promoting Hamas in any way. I’m not of the opinion that even terrorists would kill thousands of their own people. If anyone believes that then it’s in their own mind or propaganda from the Zionist government- not proven reality

[AZSkiffyGeek]

72. Hamas "narrative"

Anyone who faithfully quotes the Gaza Minstry of Health, or the Gaza Housing Authority, or Hamas leaders, or claims that Israel is deliberately seeking to kill innocent Palestinians, is supporting the Hamas "narrative."
And why are you calling it the "Zionist" government. The country has a name and it isn't Zion. There is a group of people who refuse to acknowledge that country's right to exist, who are they again?

[claudette]

79. IDF admitted it

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

That’s not Hamas narrative. Get a grip and face reality

[Beastly Boy]

98. IDF admitted it hit a tunnel and eliminated a Hamas commander.

If this is good enough of an admission to you, then you know Hamas was hiding among civilians.

How much room for denial have you left for yourself? I can't wait to find out.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

71. +1

[claudette]

30. And you know all this how?

[Beastly Boy]

99. It's called news reports

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-live-updates/pentagon-independently-concluded-islamic-jihad-responsible-for-hospital-blast-104070319?id=104049894

[krawhitham]

124. How about CNN, that good enough

Link to tweet

[Beastly Boy]

129. CNN confirms what I said

There is nothing on CNN that hints of Israel targeting civilians.

In fact, "We’re doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths." is the opposite of targeting civilians.

[LymphocyteLover]

16. what if Hamas was shooting rockets from there? That would make it a military target

[claudette]

42. If you ignore

That there are many many innocents who are just as afraid of terrorism as the Israelis

[Mossfern]

66. There is no doubt abou that

No one is denying it. Most, if not all of the people posting here have seen the horrors that Hamas has perpetuated against Palestinians.

[LymphocyteLover]

110. How is that ignoring the point that Israel may have been trying to hit a military target?

[TheRealNorth]

86. I think a reasonanble argument could be made

That yes, if rockets were being fired from the site, it could then be targeted.

But that doesn't seem to be the case in this instance.

[womanofthehills]

4. Most new reports now say 400 & climbing

Will keep going up as a whole neighborhood was bombed with bunker bombs. Horrific pics on Twitter.

YouTube -

?si=mMa-sdDT_KNEncDY

[Beastly Boy]

11. Latest reports: dozens dead, 100 injured.

Just reported on MSNBC.

So much for the Hamas interior ministry.

[womanofthehills]

7. 6 tons of bombs? Horiffic if true

On October 31, Israel dropped six US-made bombs (each weighing one ton) on the most populated neighborhood of Jabayla refugee camp in Gaza, killing 400, reports the Palestinian Ministry of Health. The death toll is likely to increase as more information becomes known. https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/10/31/hundreds-reported-dead-after-israel-wipes-out-entire-neighborhood-in-gaza/

According to the Quds News Network, Jabalya is one of the most populated areas of Gaza, with 60,000 residents in only 1.4 square kilometers.

[Beastly Boy]

10. If it's according to Palestinian Ministry of Health, it is not likely to be true.

[Happy Hoosier]

62. It is also a center of Hamas activities

Hopefully most civilians left the area. It’s apparently also the place with the highest density of Hamas tunnels.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

73. JFC

That is horrific.

[leftstreet]

8. jfc

[LexVegas]

12. "The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza" seems to have garnered some trust among certain people. nt

[womanofthehills]

18. Well you just have to go on social media

And the images are horrific. You know everyone has a cell phone & we can see Dr reports & the injured at the Indonesian Hospital.

[Beastly Boy]

24. Social media... That's reliable!

A whole notch more reliable than the Hamas ministries!

[womanofthehills]

19. Finally progressive sites condemning this

Common Dreams -

"What we are watching today is one of the darkest hours of our time," said one scholar after an Israeli attack on the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza killed or wounded hundreds of Palestinians. "We are watching genocide live."

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[Beastly Boy]

26. They also condemned the Israeli strile on Al Ahli hospital and 500 casualties.

before it was established that it was an Islamic Jihad striking the hospital causing 80 or so casualties.

That did wonders to the Common Dreams reputation, didn't it?

[disablegamer]

14. Israel can do no wrong

We just need to accept this and move on apparently. No questions ask otherwise its mean.

[David__77]

15. That's about it.

[LymphocyteLover]

17. I haven't seen anyone say this. But blaming them for unjustly or purposefully killing civilians is not right either.

[Happy Hoosier]

25. And to some Israel is never right.

Two can play that game and both are wrong.

[Beastly Boy]

27. As long as you have no evidence to the contrary, yeah, you are pretty much right.

Notwithstanding your reasons for saying so, evidence please! And make sure it confirms your accusations.

[obamanut2012]

48. IDF confirmed

"The IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari has confirmed that Israeli fighter jets carried out the attack on the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza, which he said killed a senior commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure."

[Beastly Boy]

54. IDF confirmed targeting of of a seniot Hamas commander and Hamas underground tunnels.

If you are not challenging the accuracy of the IDF report, do you now concede that Israel hit a military target?

As I said before, make sure your source confirms your accusations.

[Cha]

125. Well said, Beastly.

[Lovie777]

34. No country nor human is perfect................

wrong is wrong no matter who it is. Hamas was wrong, yet they seem to get a pass.

What's happening around world is just not fair, people dying, families are being wiped out, countries in shambles.

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc -

It's time to work together.

[claudette]

35. That seems to be the

feeling of many here. Any concern for innocents being slaughtered in Gaza is automatically interpreted as anti semitic when it absolutely is NOT. They seem to disciunt the fact that even many Israelis and relatives of the victims are calling for a stop to this brutality. And the fact that Nuttyahoo is even crazier than our orange lunatic ex president.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

64. Who said concern for innocents is anti-Semitic

I must have missed that post.
I have seen posts saying that Jews were rats, that people in the West Bank should be chanting "Jews Will Not replace us" and that Jewish money is controlling American government and that's why we're supporting Israel, though. I even saw a post that Israel should read the New Testament.
"

[Arazi]

52. I'm on Israel's side and can easily say this is a war crime

A caveat:

1. Hamas is deliberately hiding in the civilian population to create this exact scenario.

2. Reports indicate that many casualties are from sinkholes that opened up after the explosion- the area is so riddled with tunnels the ground is also unstable when rocked (another Hamas aggravation leading to unnecessary innocent lives lost)

[sarisataka]

57. It is a crime, without question.

However it is not Israel's crime.

[TheRealNorth]

69. I am sure George Armstrong Custer would have said the same thing....

After the "Battle" of Washita River

[sarisataka]

78. It is because of people like Custer

That we have the Geneva Conventions

Did Hamas place a facility under a refugee camp?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

59. Apparently for some here terrorists are a reliable source of information

[obamanut2012]

61. The IDF confirmed it was their strike, or are you calling the IDF terrorists???

[AZSkiffyGeek]

65. Reading comprehension difficult?

At what point did I say the IDF were terrorists. Although it was nice of you to point out that it was a Hamas base that was hit. So why would Hamas build a base under a refugee camp? That doesn't make any sense if you don't want Palestinians killed.
Oh, and it's a war crime, kind of like putting a base in a hospital.

[TheRealNorth]

83. Well

The U.S. firebombed Tokyo and the UK firebombed Dresden in WW2, so its all good.

[Cha]

84. The HAMAS Terrorist Bloody Org Disagrees with you.

[Calculating]

20. Is this like that earlier hospital bombing?

Ended up being a Hamas rocket that hit their own hospital.

[WhiteTara]

36. you know it's Hamas because

we give munitions to Israel, not Palestine.

[Beastly Boy]

100. Do we also give Israel Palestinian civilians to hide behind?

[WhiteTara]

104. Mossad is terrible at their job of

knowing everything. Instead of rounding the perps up, they decided they all look alike anyway, so bomb, bomb, bombs away.

[Beastly Boy]

105. You sound very confident in your assertions.

How much do you know about Mossad in general and "rounding the perps up" in particular?

[The Magistrate]

118. I Am Always Curious, Sir, How This 'Rounding Up' Is To Occur

Are a precinct's worth of Israeli police supposed to saunter in and kick down a door?

Or is the Mossad's crack 'mission impossible' squad to cunningly infiltrate and assassinate or exfiltrate the 'perps'?

As with so many things, it would be better all around if people just said what they mean. 'Israel must stop bombing because civilians are killed' actually means either 'Israel ought to take no steps to destroy Hamas' or 'Israel should launch a ground invasion immediately, it's better civilians are killed by small arms and grenades and direct fire from artillery, rather than bombs'. Neither is a particularly respectable position, so of course no one states the thing plainly. But the meaning is quite clear....

[obamanut2012]

43. The IDF just confirmed the strike

"The IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari has confirmed that Israeli fighter jets carried out the attack on the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza, which he said killed a senior commander and caused the collapse of Hamas's underground infrastructure."

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67258466

[MOMFUDSKI]

33. Why did I see our top General talking about striking

there on our timing? What????

[WarGamer]

41. I guess 50 innocents are worth one top Hamas commander. Duly noted.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

60. Hamas apparently thinks so

[Voltaire2]

68. The IDF is controlled by Hamas?

Israel has no agency in this war? I find that an odd position to take.

[Beastly Boy]

102. Israel controls the locations of Hamas leaders?

You don't seem to find this situation odd, do you?

[Voltaire2]

67. before this phase of this endless war is over

there will be many 10s of thousands of dead in Gaza. How many civilian deaths are too many? Is there no limit?

[Mossfern]

77. I'm looking forward

to reading your suggestions on how to resolve this issue without violence.
Please make sure it's something doable.

Thank you.

[Voltaire2]

92. Oh I don't know, I'm no expert.

But something like hunting down and capturing every person involved in the attack without bombing the crap out of densely populated cities would be the start of a plan that didn't just guarantee that the endless war would continue to be endless.

Now answer my questions: how many dead civilians is too high a cost? Is there no limit?

[Beastly Boy]

103. I believe you, you arre no expert. Apparently, no expert seriously suggested this might work.

To answer your question: as long as Hamas exists, the number of dead civilians can exceed your wildest estimates.

[PufPuf23]

113. Hint: Your statement is what Hamas wants as a reaction.

Don't think you perceive how ugly your statements.

Beastly Boy (7,422 posts)
103. I believe you, you arre no expert. Apparently, no expert seriously suggested this might work.
Reply to Voltaire2 (Reply #92)
Tue Oct 31, 2023, 03:58 PM
To answer your question: as long as Hamas exists, the number of dead civilians can exceed your wildest estimates.

[Beastly Boy]

120. I doubt that Hamas wants to hear yet another reason that justifies its elimination

[FBaggins]

121. Oh... that part is actually easy

hunting down and capturing every person involved in the attack without bombing the crap out of densely populated cities would be the start

Simple - you recognize that the laws of war require Hamas to evacuate their civilians from the conflict area. So we just have to insist that Israel give lots of warning (perhaps even bypassing the government of Gaza and communicating directly to civilians in the area to be attacked) so that there's time to evacuate.

Oh wait... you say they've done that for decades?

how many dead civilians is too high a cost?

That's a question for Hamas.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

82. The bloodlust is sickening.

I mourn the dead.

[Chakaconcarne]

76. As long as we have threads like these, attacking one another....

We'll be joining the GOP in the dysfunction party...

...and who knows what the fuck they'll be doing while we're looking every which way, but their direction...

Just saying... the discussions will never resolve.....why partake?

[EX500rider]

85. "Refugee camp" Established in 1948

At this point they are residents of Gaza who pretend to be refugees but really maybe their grandfather was. They were born in Gaza.

[LeftInTX]

87. If they don't have citizenship, they are considered refugees by law.

Grandchildren are considered refugees according to the UNRWA.

[EX500rider]

89. Palestinian's seem to be the only ones with hereditary "refugee" status

What citizenship do any Gazan's have?
Also not sure how they are refugees when they are still in Palestinian territory.

Are all the displaced people from Europe in WWII still refugees too?
Are Germans who fled Kaliningrad in 1945 grandchildren still refugees? Or would that seem silly?

[LeftInTX]

91. They don't have any citizenship. Palestine isn't a country. No citizens.

Palestine is a region located in Israel. If you were expelled from your home in 1948 into this region, you, your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc are not eligible for Israeli citizenship. There is no Palestine citizenship.

[EX500rider]

101. However I don't think they can return to the British Mandate either

And why don't the rest of the Gazan's consider themselves refugees?
But I agree Palestine should get country status.

[LeftInTX]

108. Gazans are mostly refugees. There are a few citizens and professionals who live there.

Most are unemployed refugees

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. You asked, and I answered, over 2 weeks ago, but you clearly didn't give a toss

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218363983#post4

Do we have to keep repeating things until you'll read them?

[EX500rider]

112. So refugees from the British Palestine Mandate? Cause i don't think they can go back there

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. Thanks to Israel, no, they can't

As already explained, Israel enlarged its borders from the proposed division, and Palestinians fled from there, and from where some were living in what had been decreed by the UN as Israel, to Gaza and the West Bank. So many became refugees. If Israel gave them the right of return to their old homes, or the old homes of their parents/grandparents, then they would be no longer refugees. But Israel has made it clear they'll never agree to that. That's the Israeli policy - they're refugees, or they have to migrate to a new country if they can (in theory, a two state solution gives a third option, but that's been flushed away by Netanyahu in the past few years).

And, to be fair, there'll be some Jewish people who, in 1948, fled the areas that became Gaza and the West Bank, to Israel. But Israel is an independent state, so it was able to grant them citizenship.

[EX500rider]

131. " Israel enlarged its borders from the proposed division"

Interesting way of wording the Palestinian's rejected their own country and tried to take it all with the help of the neighboring countries and lost.

So refugees from Palestine, still in Palestine and no more then 50 miles or more from where they started.

As opposed to stay a Polish survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto who then was a survivor of the death camps who walked across Europe as a displaced person, found room on a packed antique steam ship, evaded the British blockade and help found their country only to be attacked by 100% of the neighboring countries and won.

[muriel_volestrangler]

132. It's not like the Palestinians took a vote and decided to do that

It was the people with weapons and contacts with the neighbouring Arab countries. Yes, those Palestinians who found themselves in a war through no choice of their own, or found themselves in a country they'd never asked for and hadn't moved, were refugees.

Clearly you have no sympathy for them, and you like to divide refugees into "deserving" and "undeserving", as others divide the poor. But that's just your feelings - the world felt, and feels, differently, on the whole. Your attitude is important to you, I guess.

[EX500rider]

133. I hardly consider people permanent refugees

Who started in Palestine, are still in Palestine but maybe 50 miles from where they started

[muriel_volestrangler]

134. As I said, you're just telling us about your feelings

which are, frankly, boring. Still, maybe you'll remember what I've shown you, this time.

[obamanut2012]

88. JFC they are refugees! Are you listening to yourself?!

"pretend to be refugees"

THEY ARE REFUGEES. Legally and morally.

They are camps as old and older, including Nakivale Refugee Settlement (I think I spelled that right) in Uganda, and Cooper's Camp, dating back to the 1940s and the partition of India and Pakistan. I;m sure there are others, but that's all I know off teh top of my head.

They are also legally and morally refugees.

My God. You just ahev to "win," don't you? Every single thing has to have a winner and a loser. Everyone is a fucking loser in this.

[EX500rider]

90. If you were born in Gaza and your parents were born in Gaza..

...and your grandparents were displaced from another part of Palestine it is just a way to forever be a victim of what happened to your grandparents 75 years ago IMO ymmv

[obamanut2012]

95. They are legally refugees

Just like teh folks in Cooper's Camp and other old refugee camps all over the globe.

If you really believe what you are saying, I feel sad for you, and will wish peace for you.

[EX500rider]

97. Refugees from what country? The British Mandate of Palestine?

Because I don't think they can go back there. So refugees forever I guess?

[Voltaire2]

93. Gaza has no status as a nation or a part of any nation.

But I certainly agree that Gaza should be part of a recognized nation that could start dealing with their huge refugee problem.

[CincyDem]

106. I believe the ancestors on 1.6milliion Palestinian Israeli citizens took up Israel's 1948 offer.

Stay. Become part of this nation. Today, Palestinians sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court bench, in positions of authority in hospitals, universities and other professions in Israel.

But Arab countries condemned these Palestinians and called on them to refuse the offer and many refused. Many of their descendents now live in Gaza and West Bank (as well as in Jordan).

So yeah….some country has offered Palestinians a place to live…in peace. But again in 1992 as in ‘48, a committed group of Palestinian leadership said…nah…we’d rather focus on killing all Jews and pushing Israel into the sea.

A two state solution was hours away. Everything Arafat asked was his. But only in exchange for recognizing Israel. That was just a bridge too far for him.

How’s that working for them now?

[brooklynite]

109. If only Jordan and Egypt had permitted one.....

[walkingman]

94. This reminds me of the US attitude when we invaded Iraq after 9/11.

[Oneironaut]

116. "So, what you're saying is, you support the terrorists!?"

[timrogger]

128. dfgasg

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