IDF Airstrikes Hit Refugee Camp AGAIN

[T_A]

(AP)-Israeli airstrikes have hit apartment buildings in a refugee camp near Gaza City for a second day in a row, causing many deaths and injuries

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-11-1-2023-7016eb9ebd6a7852c0ed71bc97f14d92

Also reported by the BBC.

[Prairie Gates]

1. No doubt Hamas's next most important commander was hit in this one

[T_A]

5. HEH

You're second in command. No, YOU''RE second in command.

[GuppyGal]

2. Hamas keeps lying and civilians keep dyin

[atreides1]

3. Or

Israeli intelligence actually sucks...as was evidenced by the October 7 attacks!

[T_A]

6. And

we're supposed to buy that they know who all these people are AND which one's were supposedly behind the planning or organizing of Oct 7th.

Sure.

[GuppyGal]

8. I stand with Israel - Period the end

[Chainfire]

12. So there is no path that the government of Israel could take that you would not follow?

I wouldn't grant that status to my own government or even my most beloved family members. Blind faith is just that.

[GuppyGal]

14. It's called being loyal which is needed right now and all my Jewish friends know it appreciate it

So once again I stand with Israel...It's not really that hard unless you want it to be or unless you don't stand with them, which is fine I just wish people would be honest about it instead of these transparent trolls.

[Chainfire]

38. So if someone does't approve of ALL of Israel's actions they are a DU troll?

My loyalties are to truth and justice, not nations.

I have been a lifetime supporter of Israel the state and I have always respected and defended Jews, but they are trying to drive me out of their camp with their actions. What Hamas did was unforgivable it was an atrocity, but that does not justify repaypayment in the same coin.

I will continue to support and defend Jews, but I do not approve of the government of Israel's prosecution of this war. Nor do I think that they way that they are responding will be good for their future. I think that they are making more "enemies" than they are destroying.

[claudette]

51. I stand with Israel, too

and so do the Jewish members of my family. However, not everything Israel does is perfect. And they also agree. It is possible to "stand" with Israel and pray that the hostages are returned unharmed, but the Zionist government's method in trying to achieve that goal is over-kill because Nuttyahoo is in charge.

[GuppyGal]

93. Right now ...during this very trying time I stand with Israel...period the end. Why is this so hard to understand?

Never did I say what you've posted. I know Israel is not perfect etc.... but it seems some people really don't understand the concept of loyalty....and loyalty with an ally, however imperfect they may be.

[meadowlander]

105. Because people turning their brains off to blindly support one side or the other is the reason we're in this mess

to begin with.

And sometimes the truest form of friendship is being honest with your friends when it is clear that they are headed down the wrong path.

[GuppyGal]

116. Right I'm the one with my brain turned off LOLLL

[unconventional]

70. Even when Israel murders children and innocent cilivians?

[cayugafalls]

82. The IDF spokesperson is on record.

“This is the tragedy of war, Wolf.” IDF spokesperson.

ETA correction it was a spokesperson

[2naSalit]

100. Sort of like...

pooptin's mighty army not to be questioned?

[moniss]

4. I'm beginning to wonder if

there is a strategy by Nutbagyahoo to do things like this to try and provoke such a reaction from Iran so that he can use that as cover to massively bomb Iranian nuclear sites. I think he wants that way more than he wants Hamas.

[Bettie]

19. Either way, he has to keep this whole thing going

because he needs/wants to stay in power.

[Chakaconcarne]

24. Yep and Russia and the GOP are going to leverage this to further divide Americans...

and based on the plethora of examples here, it seems like DU will be an easy target.

That is my opinion

[claudette]

52. That is possible

Nuttyahoo has nukes.

[Tomconroy]

7. An egyptian journalist asked a relevant question yesterday

Link to tweet

[Celerity]

9. beware, Visegrad 24 is a very problematic source of info (I have seen it posted many times here)

Polish Misinformation Using a Hungarian Recipe: The Curious Case of Visegrád 24

The popular Visegrád 24 Twitter account pretends to be a news agency, but just repackages material with a conservative spin

https://visegradinsight.eu/polish-misinformation-using-a-hungarian-recipe-the-curious-case-of-visegrad-24/



The Visegrád 24 Twitter account has rapidly grown in popularity, but their motivation and funding are far from transparent. While capitalising on Western support for Ukraine, the owners are building a brand to “Make Europe Great Again”, exporting a more successful Polish model initially tested by Viktor Orbán. The Hungarian attempts failed, but the plan stayed alive in Poland: in just two years, Visegrád 24 has grown into one of the largest Central Eastern European information operations in English – despite its total anonymity, opaque funding structure, having no website, lack of original content and with dubious links to the Polish government.

Visegrád 24 Gains Notoriety

From a Hungarian perspective, it is no longer surprising to find a news site has ties to the government, let alone one that spreads illiberal narratives with taxpayers’ money, like in the case of state media. However, this practice has not been widely adopted by Viktor Orbán’s international allies – and this is exactly why, from a democratic standpoint, the Polish attempts to do so at an international level seem daunting at a time when there is an ongoing war in the region. On 31 October 2022, the Polish chancellery allocated 1.4 million PLN (roughly 300 thousand EUR) from the budget reserve for a leisure and health NGO called Action-Life Foundation to implement a public task titled Visegrád 24, a decision signed off by Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki without further explanation.

The name might ring a bell, as for the past two years, social media profiles under the same name have gathered hundreds of thousands of followers by aggregating news from the Central Eastern European region, nowadays focused mostly on the war in Ukraine. However, a sports NGO receiving state funds for a news site is only one of the many dubious chapters in Visegrád 24’s story. The page claims to aggregate and curate news, politics, current affairs, history and culture from Central and Eastern Europe. It first appeared on Twitter in January 2020, gaining 324,000 followers to date, as well as an audience of 153,000 on TikTok and 7,000 on both Facebook and Instagram. However, unlike other regional sites like Visegrad Insight, which produces original, English-language analytical content, Visegrád 24 creates virtually no original material; it relies solely on re-sharing and re-posting information, and its website, Visegrád24.org serves only as a donation page for the unnamed authors.

Origin of Misinformation

It is especially interesting to see how they have earned a name for themselves. Posting fake news at the beginning of the war, such as Leonardo DiCaprio donating 10 million USD to Ukraine or PornHub blocking access to its page from Russia, but Visegrád 24 was reportedly the first international social media feed to publish a video of Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin dancing with her friends at a house party in August 2022. With her country waiting for its accession to NATO, releasing such footage was logically thought to be in the interest of someone whose agenda would benefit from a scandal around Marin herself – thus the efforts to find the people behind Visegrád 24, which has been set up from Poland using a Polish phone number, rejuvenated.

snip

[EX500rider]

11. Does not change whither that is a good question or not

[Celerity]

16. It's a shit RW source that often posts disinfo, EOS. I see far too many sus RW sources being posted here lately.

[disablegamer]

35. apparently its ok as long as it is in support of Israel

Haven't you realized no source is wrong as long as it says what they want.

[Celerity]

42. I will always call out dodgy sourcing when I see it. I have done so since I joined the board in summer 2018.

[disablegamer]

44. in another thread

They are telling us unless something is said from IDF source its HAMAS lol this place seems weird.

[Celerity]

47. my advice is................

[Goddessartist]

50. In this case it's true.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/gaza-refugee-camp-israeli-strikes-00124706

[wnylib]

83. I've seen RW sources like Newsweek posted here

to support anti Israel views.

[LauraInLA]

104. I agree that the question is good, but

b/c of the source, there is no telling if it’s translated accurately, if the “reporter” is even asking the question. I think it’s better to ignore sources like this even if they say something I like.

[wnylib]

86. Aside from the source, what do you think about the question

regarding the extensive buildup of tunnels and munitions by Hamas without building shelters for the civilians?

The question does not justify deaths caused by Israel's bombings, but it does show the priorities of the Hamas government.

[Celerity]

92. Not possible to say as I do not speak Arabic and I do not trust the translation due to the source

If you have a reliable source with more info, vetting, and background on it, I would be happy to take a look.

[wnylib]

95. I think I said "aside from the source."

We know that Hamas has numerous tunnels. We know that civilians are trying to shelter in public buildings, or outdoors next to them, as with the Anglican hospital where they were killed and injured. Do you mean that, without knowing the video speaker's language, it's not possible to know if Hamas has built shelters for civilians?

[Celerity]

97. Why Gaza doesn't have bomb shelters (from 2014)

While Hamas has built an extensive network of underground tunnels and bunkers since 2009, it hasn't built infrastructure for protecting civilians.

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0717/Why-Gaza-doesn-t-have-bomb-shelters



Israeli missiles have hit Mahmoud Haj Salama’s neighborhood more than 10 times in the past 10 days, but he has stayed put – even as hundreds of homes around him have been destroyed. “For me, home is the safest place even if it might be damaged or destroyed. Many people were killed while shopping, playing football, or even driving,” says the father of seven. “I wish I had a shelter or a basement under my home.” The lack of bomb shelters in Gaza stands in stark contrast with Israel, which has invested heavily in such protection since the 1991 Gulf War. While Hamas has built an extensive underground network of tunnels and bunkers since 2009, after its first conflict with Israel, as well as hundreds of smuggling tunnels, no apparent effort has been made to protect civilians from Israeli air raids.

The proffered reasons range from a lack of building materials to a culture of martyrdom that welcomes death. As with most things Middle Eastern, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Although some religious Muslims welcome death in a conflict with Israel, believing that being killed by a Jew is a sure ticket to paradise, the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza don’t seek death. If they had shelters, they would undoubtedly use them, even though many believe that you can’t escape fate in an underground bunker. However, building bomb shelters for more than 1.7 million people from scratch would be a massive logistical challenge – just ask Israel – but especially for a government that is chronically in the red and doesn’t control its borders.

Billions of shekels required

Since 1992, after Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein rained Scud missiles on Israel, every new Israeli home has been required to have secure areas. Such private shelters, which consist of concrete and iron rods, can cost as much as 70,000 to 100,000 shekels ($20,000 to $29,000). In addition, the Israeli government offers incentives for contractors to add bomb shelters onto older buildings, in exchange for free rights to develop two-and-a-half additional floors. Today, after billions of shekels of government investment, roughly two-thirds of Israelis have access to secure areas that protect against the fallout of rocket fire, though most could not withstand direct hits. In cities close to Gaza, such as Ashkelon, the rate is as high as 85 percent. When rockets manage to slip through Iron Dome, shelters play a crucial role in protecting against fatal shrapnel and other fallout.

If Gaza’s leadership were able to replicate such civilian infrastructure, would it be able to achieve similar protection in the face of Israel’s military superiority? “If there is a direct [Israeli] hit … the shelter will not stand,” says Lt. Col. Avi Bitzur (res.), former head of the Israeli military’s fortifications branch. “If [the munitions] will fall next to the shelter, it can stand against it.” From an urban planning perspective, it would be feasible to build an extensive network of civilian shelters in Gaza despite the outdated infrastructure, says Bitzur, who now serves as deputy head of Homefront Defense Studies at Beit Berl College. But financially it is unworkable, he says. “It’s too much expense, too much to do it now. You cannot give now a shelter for 1.5 million people,” he says, estimating that it would require billions of shekels and at least five to six years.

Cement diverted to underground tunnels...................................

snip

[LeftInTX]

96. Hamas leader said tunnels are for hamas. UN is responsible for civilians.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians/

Moussa Abu Marzouk, a prominent member of Hamas’s political bureau, has declared that the terror group that rules Gaza is not responsible for protecting the Strip’s civilians, and said that the vast tunnel network underneath the enclave is only for the protection of Hamas terrorists.

In an interview with Russia Today’s Arabic channel on Friday, Abu Marzouk was asked why Hamas has dug 500 kilometers (310 miles) of tunnels in the territory it has ruled over since 2007, but has never built shelters for civilians to hide during bombings.

“We built the tunnels because we have no other way of protecting ourselves from being killed in airstrikes. We are fighting from inside the tunnels,” the Qatar-based official said, according to a segment of the interview translated and shared by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI).

“Seventy-five percent of the population of Gaza are refugees, and it is the UN’s responsibility to protect them,” Abu Marzouk added, referencing the UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) that operates across Gaza, the West Bank and other Middle East countries to provide basic services to Palestinian refugees from 1948 and their millions of descendants, who are also regarded by the agency as refugees despite never being displaced during their lifetime.

Abu Marzouk claimed that it was Israel’s obligation to provide for the needs of the citizens of Gaza under the Geneva Convention, referring to the international agreement for the protection of noncombatants during armed conflicts.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Moussa Abu Marzouk, lives in Qatar, but previously was a US resident. He has a MS in Engineering from Colorado State, but left the US after he was detained in 1995. He has been living in various countries in the ME since. He is worth $3 BN USD. He also said it is up to Israel to protect them.

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1718973338486260097%7Ctwgr%5Eb56f40e089cf19b789331cf73d8d5bb7584a9054%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Ftop-hamas-official-claims-group-is-not-responsible-for-defending-gazan-civilians%2F

[Celerity]

99. yes, and I just posted an article on it

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218416995#post97

[LauraInLA]

108. Just so you know, MEMRI is another pretty questionable source.

I agree with the overall point, but I think the source undercuts it bc it’s dodgy.

[LeftInTX]

115. I got it from Times of Israel. They likely can translate Arabic better than I can

This guy is not a nice dude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousa_Abu_Marzook - He's an American fugitive. He's been around for a long time. Are you denying that he's saying this?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/24/gaza-israel-palestinian-school/1723951/

This is from 2012

CAIRO (AP) — Gaza's ruling Hamas will not stop arming itself because only a strong arsenal, not negotiations, can extract concessions from Israel, the No. 2 in the Islamic militant group told The Associated Press in an interview Saturday.

The comments by Moussa Abu Marzouk, just three days after the worst bout of Israel-Hamas fighting in four years, signaled trouble ahead for Egyptian-brokered talks between the hostile neighbors on a new border deal.

Hamas demands that Israel and Egypt lift all restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Palestinian territory, which has been buckling under a border blockade since the Islamists seized the territory in 2007. The restrictions have been eased somewhat in recent years, but not enough to allow Gaza's battered economy to develop.

"There is no way to relinquish weapons," Abu Marzouk said in his office on the outskirts of Cairo. "These weapons protected us and there is no way to stop obtaining and manufacturing them."

Hamas' founding charter calls for Israel's destruction, but leaders of the group have also said they are ready for a long-term cease-fire with the Jewish state.

The group is believed to have amassed a large arsenal of thousands of rockets since Israel's last military offensive in Gaza four years ago. Hamas has been smuggling weapons through tunnels under the border with Egypt, but also claims to have begun manufacturing longer-range rockets in Gaza.

[LauraInLA]

118. Nope, not denying he's saying it at all. I agree with you about Hamas.

I simply mentioned that MEMRI has a checkered track record. People will use sourcing as an excuse to downplay Hamas’ own statements, unfortunately.

[claudette]

54. How can they

control a "government" when they are not even recognized as a "state?" They have no control of what goes on in Gaza (Israel does), they have no police force, they have no standing military to protect them. Gazans are prisoners - not a state that is "governed."

[Tomconroy]

57. They get billions of dollars in aid. They choose

Where they spend it. They spend it on tunnels they won't allow civilians into.

[claudette]

58. Billions?

Wow! The talking points keep getting more exaggerated by the day!

[Tomconroy]

61. Yes. Billions.

[claudette]

63. And you have proof of this?

If Hamas has "billions" to spend on weapons and such, shouldn't they have been better equipped to launch an attack? (Thankfully they weren't). Please - the exaggerations and allegations here are just too much to try to reply to. I'm done.

[Tomconroy]

65. They have invented this thing called Google.

You should give it a try.

[radicalleft]

102. Google to the rescue

https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The international community has sent billions of dollars in aid to the Gaza Strip in recent years to provide relief to the more than 2 million Palestinians living in the isolated, Hamas-ruled territory.

The aid is intended to ease the burden on civilians of an Israeli-Egyptian blockade imposed on Gaza when the Islamic militant group seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007.

Israel says the heavy restrictions on trade and movement are needed to keep Hamas from enhancing its military capability, while critics view it as a form of collective punishment. Israel and Hamas have fought four wars since 2008, the most recent in May.


I don’t see any mention of tunnels other than a vague reference to Israel’s claim of “military capability “

[LeftInTX]

119. There are lots of videos of their tunnels.

They also receive millions from Iran and numerous shady sources. Most is done via bitcoins and crypto. Their leaders are billionaires. Australia just warned it's citizens not send bitcoins to Hamas. Also, Hamas could be disguising as aid agencies to prey on naive people under fake aid groups such as, "Help the Palestinians". This would not be counted as aid. It would go directly to Hamas's pockets.

[GuppyGal]

120. The released elderly hostage reference them and she said it was like a spiderweb...we know all about

these tunnels.

[Goddessartist]

10. Horrific!

This is a war crime!

No excuses anymore. They're kettling the Palestinian people and slaughtering them.

My 97 year old Jewish m-i-l calls it genocide. Her father has a street named after him in Israel.

[David__77]

13. The world will note that the US does not condemn attacking refugee camps.

[Happy Hoosier]

15. This "refugee camp"....

... is fully urbanized, the location of Hamas' densest tunnel netowrk, and a center of Hamas activity for a couple decades at least.

But calling a "refugee camp" brings to mind women and children living in tents cruelly bombed by the EBIL ISRAELIS!!!!

Totally transparent.

[obamanut2012]

18. It is legally and morally a refugee camp -- wtf is this new talking point saying it isn't???

It also is far from the oldest refugee camp. Cooper's Camp has been around since the 40s, and that is only one of several I can think of off the top of my head.

INFO: why are you being misleading about this? The UN, etal know this is a refugee camp, Israel also calls it a refugee camp, but you ad some other posters think it's some kind fo weird flex to go lolz no it isn't.

[Happy Hoosier]

23. It is officially a "refugee camp," But it is a fully urbanized part of a city.

Do you deny that when people hear the word "camp" they are not thinking of high-rise buildings in a city?

To me, the use of this term without elaboration is intended to elicit a very specific emotional response. That's dishonest in my eyes. I have no doubt the ISRAEL BAD contingent consider it justified, but I see through it.

[meadowlander]

109. The whole of the Gaza strip is a fully urbanized part of a city.

We're talking about a strip of land about the same size as Queens in New York with 3 million people living in it. What is the alternative location for a refugee camp within Gaza's borders?

[EX500rider]

114. Yeah, no, lots of Gaza is countryside even with farms

See all the white area? Non-urban countryside

[Goddessartist]

21. Such disregard for the Palestinian civilians.

[Happy Hoosier]

25. Such disregard for the actual facts. NT

[Goddessartist]

28. Right back at you. Projection.

[Happy Hoosier]

33. Do you deny the points I made? C'mon... let's see you deny it.

1) This "camp" is fully urbanized
2) The Hamas tunnel network in this area is EXTENSIVE
3) It is, and has been a center of Hamas activity.

Again.... do you deny that?

[Goddessartist]

37. It is a Refugee Camp!

You're also for bombing hospitals if they have Hamas underneath, real or imagined.

I don't have to answer anything. You show who and what you are.

[Happy Hoosier]

73. So no. Thanks.

You remind me of the MAGAts who will refuse to answer if Biden was legitimately elected.

They'll do ANYTHING but actually address the facts if they undermine their BS narrative.

[Goddessartist]

81. Wow. Personal attacks.

You are for bombing hospitals. I don't have to answer anything you ask. You show who you are.

[EX500rider]

110. It was a refugee camp 75 years ago, now it just part of Gaza city called that

No one lives in tents and they were all born in Gaza along with their parents and most likely grandparents.
And refugees from where? Another part of Palestine 50 miles away 75 years ago? Or from the British Palestine Mandate? Cause there is no returning to there.

[LauraInLA]

112. But the international law

Calls it a war crime to situate military in hospitals or put tunnels beneath them. Doing so makes them legitimate military targets.

[claudette]

49. What facts do you mean?

You're saying it's not a "fact" that the refugee camp was bombed?

[Zeitghost]

117. Indeed

Hamas hiding behind civilians is horrible.

[GuppyGal]

22. Calling it a 'refugee camp' garners sympathy and gives people visual images of all these people in tents

trying to escape the fighting and I must say this Hamas Propaganda seems to be working pretty well.

[Happy Hoosier]

26. LOTS of DUers carrying Hamas' water on this. NT

[claudette]

29. And whose

water should they carry?

[Happy Hoosier]

39. NOT HAMAS'.

When posting stories like this, maybe add or at least acknowledge some actual context like WHY Israel might target the place, unless of just trying to villify the EBIL ISRAELIS.

What I see form you and your ilk is condemnation of Israel for attacking, but no condemnation of Hamas for hiding behind civilians.

I wish Hamas were isolated from the civilian population. But they aren't. By design.

[claudette]

45. How can

civilians be HIDING in the camp where the LIVE? When I see you and your ilk condemning Hamas for "hiding" civilians, I see no proof of it. And, just because Hamas members live among the Palestinian civilians is NO reason to kill those civilians in the hopes of "getting" Hamas members. Where is Israeli
intelligence? Why not FIND them first and figure out a way to get to them without killing thousands of innocents just to get 1 or 2 Hamas members.

No one is taking Hamas' side in this war. NO ONE. What they did to Israel on 10/7 was horrific, but, our "ilk" says that revenge has been fully taken - now Nuttyahoo should call a ceasefire, negotiate to get the hostages out and then talk about setting Gaza free in a two-state solution. THAT is what our "ilk" thinks might be the answer.

[LauraInLA]

113. Just to clarify, the poster said

Hamas is hiding BEHIND civilians, which is a war crime.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

101. So you agree there are pro Terrorist posters here

Good to hear, when are you going to start calling them out?

[Goddessartist]

34. No one here carries anything for Hamas. Stop with the

false accusations!

Stop dividing!

[Happy Hoosier]

36. People want to elicit a specific emotional response here

Intentionally or not, it is the SAME response Hamas wants. It's precisely WHY they operate from these camps. Even if you think Israel shouldn;t attack, do you at least acknowledge that? If we cannot agree that the attacks are justified, can we agree that this is what Hamas intended by hiding under civilians?

[Goddessartist]

40. That's exactly what you're doing. Eliciting emotional responses.

There is no excuse for bombing a refugee camp, a hospital, an apartment building.

Bibi was warned and did nothing.

[Happy Hoosier]

43. Bibi is an asshole.

I hope one thing we can salvage from all this is his political ouster. Israel deperately needs it.

But I notice you did not ackowledge a single thing I said. I wonder why that is? Do the answers make you uncomfortable?

"There is no excuse for bombing a refugee camp, a hospital, an apartment building."

Ever? So the enemy can just set up operations mixed in with civilians and operate with impunity?

[claudette]

48. Exactly what kind of

"operations" are set up in a hospital that needs to be bombed? Are rockets being thrown from the hospitals and refugee camps? Who is giving you this information? With all the infrastructure of Gaza being destroyed, then why doesn't Israel cease fire?

[Tomconroy]

53. The IDF has not bombed any hospitals.

[claudette]

56. I was responding to the

poster who implied that it might be ok for Israel to do that since Hamas sets up "operations" at a hospital (which I don't think they would - just like I don't think Israel would bomb a hospital).

[Jedi Guy]

89. "...Hamas sets up "operations" at a hospital (which I don't think they would..."

Are you being serious right now? You don't think Hamas would set up shop in a hospital? They did and do precisely that because that's who they are. They have rejected any and all responsibility for the welfare of the people of Gaza, saying that it's the UN and Israel's responsibility to give a damn about civilians.

Moreover, IDF captured and interrogated a couple of Hamas operatives who admitted that Hamas operates out of al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. When asked why they do so, the response was, "Because we know you won't strike it."

Why are you willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to people who deliberately targeted, tortured, raped, mutilated, and murdered civilians, including women, children, and the elderly, and then celebrated doing so after the fact? Why do you doubt that there is any low to which they would not stoop?

[claudette]

90. Oh, of course

IDF says so. End of conversation.

[Jedi Guy]

98. Hamas themselves have said it. Their spokesman rejected all responsibility towards Gazan civilians.

But if you want to believe that people who would torture, mutilate, rape, burn alive, and otherwise murder civilians (including women, children, and the elderly) would draw the line at hiding behind other civilians, I can't help you. If you want to believe in fairy tales, go for it.

Why are you so invested in rejecting what Hamas really are? Why are you so determined to defend them?

[Happy Hoosier]

66. I am not aware that hospitals have been deliberately targeted yet, but....

.... if an enemy sets up a command center, a missile launch site, a weapons depot, fighter barracks, a communication center, etc. at a civilian site like a hospital....

What is Israel supposed to do? Let them operate with impunity? I mean, that's certainly what Hamas HOPES you'll say. At point point do you start to hold Hamas responsible for deliberately putting civilians in harm's way? When does it become THEIR responbility to protect civilians? SPOILER: THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT CIVILIANS. They are sacrificing civilians on the alter of PR wins. They said they would do it, and they are. Believe them.

[Goddessartist]

85. Never.

[Happy Hoosier]

87. Well then, we have nothing to discuss.

Those of us living in the real world have to deal with actual evil people doing evil things.

I wish you well.

[Goddessartist]

106. Again with personal insults. Stop with the insults and inferences.

[Happy Hoosier]

111. What insult?

If you're an idealist, that's fine.

But I'm a realist and I think that world sometimes needs people who recognize that there are times when there is no good solution, and less bad ones.

[Goddessartist]

121. Disingenuous.

[Qutzupalotl]

59. It's called that in the AP article. nt

[claudette]

31. What's the difference

WHAT it is called? Innocents are still being slaughtered

[sarisataka]

41. What it is called

Has been very important when innocents were slaughtered by Hamas. Many words have been spilled over the minutiae of how people were murdered to make sure there are no libelous accusations against terrorists.

[sarisataka]

32. Interesting how much debate there has been

Over what "beheaded" means, but apparently you cannot question why an apartment building is called a camp...

[Prairie Gates]

60. Agreed

But an emotional response should probably attach to bombing apartment buildings as well.

[Celerity]

67. Jabalia refugee camp

[sarisataka]

17. From the de facto government of Gaza

Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior member of the Hamas political bureau, said in an interview with the RT network in Arabic that the tunnels built in Gaza were meant to protect Hamas - and not the residents of the Strip. "It is the responsibility of the UN to protect them," he said.

This also explains why Hamas has no problem building their network in and under the people they are supposedly fighting for- they just don't care.

[Goddessartist]

20. Here's another link that confirms this:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/gaza-refugee-camp-israeli-strikes-00124706

[claudette]

27. This is

horrendous. Something needs to be done. The world cannot sit by silently and let this happen. Ceasefire and talk

[Goddessartist]

30. It's heartbreaking.

[claudette]

46. Yes, it is

And, I don't see how these bombardments against innocent Palestinians helps the Israeli cause in getting the hostages out alive. What are they thinking?

[ripcord]

55. After 75 years of Palestinian attacks on Israel this one finally pushed them over the edge

They are going to do what they have to do to protect their people regardless of world opinion. Five attempts at genocide, what other nation would be expected to tolerate that? Decades of cross border terror attacks and rocket launches, Israel doesn't deserve this and is done tolerating it.

[claudette]

62. And they have every right

to go after those who committed that horrific crime against them. No one expects them to "tolerate" anything like that. But, Israel is going after ALL of Gazans - not just those who harmed them on 10/7. They are destroying the homes and land of the innocents who did nothing to them. Do those Palestinians deserve that? Should they "tolerate" it? That is why the hatred will never end - ever - because the two-state solution is not in place.

[Tomconroy]

64. If Israel were actually 'going after all of the gazans

The war would be over by now.

[claudette]

69. Really?

According to Nuttyahoo, it will be a long war because he knows it takes time to get rid of so much infrastructure and inhabitants who could not escape. How many dead Palestinians will be needed before a ceasefire is called?

[Tomconroy]

75. I expect this will be over by the New Year.

[claudette]

77. Two more months of this?

I hope and pray it ends sooner, so that the hostages can be found alive.

[Tomconroy]

78. They can be released at any time hamas chooses.

[ripcord]

72. You do seem to want them to tolarate the decades of Palestinian action

You want them to put the safety of people who hate them over their own citizens. Hamas is fully embedded in the population, there is no possible way to go in and peaceably separate the two so Hamas is succeeding at putting them in danger. Israel is not going to just back off this time, Hamas has said they are going to continue with more terror attacks so it would be irresponsible for Israel not to finish what they have started.

[claudette]

74. "Finish" what they started?

What did they "start?" No one blames Israel for wanting to "get" Hamas - but killing thousands of innocent Palestinians is NOT the answer - in my view. A ceasefire is not "backing off." It is giving a breather and time to try to negotiate to get the hostages out alive.

[ripcord]

79. They started the attacks to remove Hamas

And they will not be turned aside. Negotiating with terrorists is fine as long as no sane person expects Israel to keep their word after the fact, get the civilians back and continue the attack. Even if they can't get every member of Hamas the tunnel network has to be destroyed along with all Hamas infrastructure. Hillary explained exactly why a ceasefire would only benefit Hamas and hurt Israel.

[Celerity]

80. What a hot load of one-way slanted tosh. Both the Palestinians AND Israelis have attacked the hell out of the

other side's side's civilians for at least 75 to 80 years or so.

In terms of raw numbers of civilians killed over that period, Palestine is losing the death race, and badly.

Fuck Hamas, they are goon thugs, opportunistic murderous terrorists, but this nightmare is far from a one-way street, and has been going on long before Hamas existed.

Amazing (and oh so dispiriting, but I guess hardly surprising) the selective historical amnesia a determined chorus here exhibits on a daily basis, as well as the pretzel logic contortions needed to erect a mental block to war crimes from only one side over the decades.

Hamas are murderous thug terrorists, but Netanyahu and his RW ilk (plus their historical antecedents) are hardly innocent.

Gaza and the West Bank situations did not occur in a vacuum.

Bear in mind, the expulsions/displacements have continued right up until the present time, mainly from the land grabs for the illegal West Bank settlements, but we can go back to 1947 to 1949, and especially 1948, when things truly kicked off:

1948 - The Nakba

In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias, during the 1948 Palestine war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba, in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning, and other sites subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names, and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.

The precise number of refugees, many of whom settled in refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute but around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes. About 250,000–300,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre, which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing, the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning, collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders, and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.

Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees. The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing, while others dispute this charge. Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charges of Apartheid against the State of Israel. The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will allow them the right to return to their homes, or compensate them, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere on 15 May, a date known as Nakba Day.

snip

Between 1947 and 1949, Zionist military forces attacked major Palestinian cities and destroyed some 530 villages. About 15,000 Palestinians were killed in a series of mass atrocities, including dozens of massacres.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/15/nakba-mapping-palestinian-villages-destroyed-by-israel-in-1948

[ripcord]

84. Israel was attacked by the nations Arabs, including the Palestinians the same day they declared they were a nation

They have been responding to attacks ever since, five times the Arabs have attempted genocide but some people still try and justify their actions.

[Celerity]

88. Israel's been illegally grabbing land for decades and has radically increased the takings under the RW fundie Netanyahu

regime. That is quite simply tossing Swan Vestas into a barrel of petrol.

Israel has also (well before October 7th) killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. The disproportionality is gobsmacking.

Again, I absolutely condemn the barbarian Hamas terrorists, but to try and take a 'one side only is to blame over the arc of modern history' stance beggars belief.

[radicalleft]

91. Shhhh

We don’t talk about these things…

[CincyDem]

94. And during that 75 years, Israel offered more than one opportunity to find peace...

...all the PLO had to do was recognize the existence of the State of Israel.

In 1992, Israel offered 97% of the territory the PLO requested, they offered conservatorship over the remaining 3%, they offered billions as startup money for the new Palestinian state. More than ever offered by any Arab country...passed over to keep working to push Israel into the sea.

Just imagine what Gaza could have been like with 25 miles of prime seacoast, a port city, amazing beaches. Think that couldn't have happened...look at Dubai 20 years ago.

Instead, it's a battle ground.

So they didn't just tolerate the attacks. They reached out in spite of the attacks.

[Nanjeanne]

68. To actually learn about Palestine Refugees and the camps including Jabalia - some information

I'm sure it won't be read by people who want to believe there can't be Palestinian refugees - or that they must live in a tent in order to be called a refugee . . . but perhaps there are others who are interested in knowing more . . . this is for them . . . From United National Relief & Works Agency

https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

WHO ARE PALESTINE REFUGEES?
Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”

UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration. When the Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5.9 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.

WHERE DO PALESTINE REFUGEES LIVE?
Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

A Palestine refugee camp is defined as a plot of land placed at the disposal of UNRWA by the host government to accommodate Palestine refugees and set up facilities to cater to their needs. Areas not designated as such and are not recognized as camps. However, UNRWA also maintains schools, health centres and distribution centres in areas outside the recognized camps where Palestine refugees are concentrated, such as Yarmouk, near Damascus.

The plots of land on which the recognized camps were set up are either state land or, in most cases, land leased by the host government from local landowners. This means that the refugees in camps do not 'own' the land on which their shelters were built, but have the right to 'use' the land for a residence.

Socioeconomic conditions in the camps are generally poor, with high population density, cramped living conditions and inadequate basic infrastructure such as roads and sewers.

RESPONSIBILITY OF UNRWA IN CAMPS
The responsibility of UNRWA in Palestine refugee camps is limited to providing services and administering its installations. The Agency does not own, administer or police the camps, as this is the responsibility of the host authorities.

UNRWA has a camp services office in each camp, which the residents visit to update their records or to raise issues relating to Agency services with the Camp Services Officer (CSO). The CSO, in turn, refers refugee concerns and petitions to the UNRWA administration in the area in which the camp is located.

1967 HOSTILITIES
In the aftermath of the hostilities of June 1967 and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, ten camps were established to accommodate a new wave of displaced persons, both refugees and non-refugees.

CITIES AND TOWNS
The remaining two thirds of registered Palestine refugees live in and around the cities and towns of the host countries, and in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, often in the environs of official camps. While most of UNRWA's installations such as schools and health centres are located in the Palestine refugee camps, a number are outside; all of the Agency’s services are available to all registered Palestine refugees, including those who do not live in the camps.

AND Information on Jabalia Camp (oh my they have buildings not tents . . . can't be refugee camps!).

https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/gaza-strip/jabalia-camp

Jabalia is the largest of the Gaza Strip's eight refugee camps. It is located north of Gaza City, close to a village of the same name. After the 1948 War, refugees settled in the camp, most having fled from villages in southern Palestine. Today, the camp covers an area of only 1.4 square kilometers. 116,011 Palestine Refugees are registered with UNRWA in Jabalia camp.

BLOCKADE

The blockade on Gaza has made life increasingly difficult for most refugees in the camp. Unemployment levels have risen dramatically, and fewer families can provide for themselves. Over the years, a staggering proportion of the population, who used to be largely self-sufficient, has become dependent on the UNRWA food assistance programme.

Basic hygiene is also of great concern in the camp, with 90 per cent of the water being unfit for human consumption.

CLOSED CROSSING

Jabalia is the closest camp to the Erez border crossing between The Gaza Strip and Israel. According to OCHA, prior to the second intifada, more than 21,000 Palestinians crossed Erez to work in Israel each day. A new policy was implemented at the beginning of the second intifada in September 2000, and tightened after June 2007 following the takeover of the Gaza Strip by Hamas. Under the new policy, only people belonging to specific Israeli-defined categories are eligible for an exit permit, subject to a security check. The vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are not eligible to apply for an exit permit. In recent years, eligibility has expanded to include patients referred for medical treatment outside Gaza and their relatives, traders, staff of international organizations and exceptional humanitarian cases. According to OCHA, in June 2023, 42,220 persons were allowed to exit the Gaza Strip, while 55,689 persons were allowed to enter.

STATISTICS

32 UNRWA installations
16 school buildings accommodating 26 schools in total, of which six operate on a single-shift system and ten operate on double shifts
One food distribution centre
Two health centres inside Jabalia camp and another one in the surrounding area called Saftawi
Two area relief and social services offices
One public library
Seven water wells
One maintenance and sanitation office

MAJOR PROBLEMS

Electricity cuts
High unemployment
Contaminated water supply
Extremely high population density
Lack of availability of construction materials

INFRASTRUCTURE & CAMP IMPROVEMENT

Overcrowding and a lack of living space characterize Jabalia camp. Shelters are built in close proximity to one another and there is a general lack of recreational and social space. In many cases, residents have had to add extra floors to their shelters to accommodate their families. Often, these lack proper design. Many live in substandard conditions.

[claudette]

71. Thanks

It is heartbreaking. No amount of destruction to Gaza will bring back the innocent Israelis who died at the hands of Hamas, and revenge bombing of refugee camps in the hopes of "getting" Hams will lead to more hatred in the hearts of the young Palestinians who are seeing this for the first time.

[NoRethugFriends]

76. Below

Link to tweet

[revmclaren]

103. This should be shared on every

Post involving Israel and Hamas.

Link to tweet

?s=20]

[Jedi Guy]

107. "We did not want to harm civilians."

We tortured, mutilated, raped, burned, and murdered them. But by gosh, we didn't want to harm them. We had to, we didn't have a choice. They were there, after all, what we were supposed to do? Not murder them? How else are we supposed to destroy Israel?

But somehow, some way, it's beyond belief for some that these same people, who bray about being a "nation of martyrs", would hide among their own civilians.

I really don't get it.