*Graphic descriptions* Hamas militants ate family's meal after they tortured and mutilated parents and 2 young children,

[sarisataka]

Hamas militants ate family's meal after they tortured and mutilated parents and 2 young children, Blinken says

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken described how Hamas militants killed a family of four and ate their festive meal during the October 7  terrorist attacks.

Speaking at a Senate hearing on Tuesday, Blinken said: "A young boy and girl, 6 and 8 years old, and their parents around the breakfast table. The father's eye gouged out in front of his kids. The mother's breast cut off, the girl's foot amputated, the boy's fingers cut off before they were executed."

"And then their executioners sat down and had a meal. That is what this society is dealing with," he said.

His descriptions echo those of an Israeli emergency responder, who described discovering the scene in a home at Kibbutz Be'eri during a recent press conference.

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-hamas-gaza-militants-ate-lunch-tortured-mutilated-young-family-2023-10

The Israeli EMS described even worse scenes.

How does Hamas answer these crimes?

"Nobody should blame us. On October 7, October 10, October one million - everything we do is justified."

"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth. Because we have the determination...to fight."

[yardwork]

1. Tortured those children to death in front of their parents.

[Army Brat]

141. Not sure I believe it

and even if true, it doesn't change Israel's obligation to adhere to international law.

[yardwork]

142. You dredged up this thread from last Thursday just to say you don't believe it?

Weird.

[sarisataka]

143. What don't you believe?

That people were killed? That a number if them were tortured? That children were murdered? That the deaths included civilians?

[Army Brat]

145. The "graphic descriptions" are clearly intended to inflame people

and it's working here. We all know there have been civilian deaths on both sides, far more Palestinian.

[sarisataka]

148. The graphic descriptions

Are relating what was seen by first responders. It may be intended to "inflame" but that doesn't mean it didn't hapoen.

[Army Brat]

161. What first responders claim

Remember the beheading and rape tales have been walked back.

[totodeinhere]

149. Descriptions of that should inflame all decent people.

There is no excuse for that type of barbarism. And nowhere is there any account of such horrors being carried out by the IDF. You can oppose the IDF bombing. But bombing in time of war does not compare to the atrocities carried out by Hamas.

[agingdem]

159. and I'm guessing you're "not sure" about the Holocaust and

6 million dead Jews?.

Hamas videoed their "work"...a Hamas spokesman warned of more attacks and promised the annihilation of all Jews...and you're "not sure"?...uh huh

so when Israeli babies are mutilated, Israeli women are raped and killed, Jewish families and the elderly are tortured and set on fire, young people attending a music festival are massacred, and civilians are kidnapped, Israel is supposed to show restraint, give notice before retaliating, offer humanitarian aid, adhere to "the rules of war" because something about the "innocent" victims of Gaza...the same people who support Hamas, allow Hamas to stockpile weapons in tunnels under their homes/schools/hospitals/mosques, allow Hamas to use their children as human shields..

this is war, a war triggered by the slaughter of innocent Jews living their everyday lives...and as in all wars innocent people die, buildings are leveled, towns are destroyed...Israel did not want this war but Israel will finish this war...

[LexVegas]

2. Fucking barbarians. nt

[EllieBC]

3. Monsters who need to be destroyed.

Maybe the ceasefire fucks can direct their energy that way.

[totodeinhere]

29. Yet all we hear from some quarters now is about how the "bad" Israeli army is

killing innocent Gaza civilians. This is all the fault of Hamas. Israel is only doing what it must do to thwart Hamas and survive.

[Igel]

78. More than one would watch somebody pull the trigger on a gun.

And then blame the bullet because they couldn't bear to blame the person responsible for the trigger.

[totodeinhere]

122. Israel was viciously attacked on October 7th.

What do you expect them to do? Roll over and play dead? Or sit around the campfire singing kumbaya? Israel is fighting for its survival. It does not want to harm civilians but when Hamas uses human Shields what else can they do? If they do not destroy Hamas Hamas will destroy them.

[EX500rider]

4. They are lucky Israel isn't considering the Ripley method

"Dust off and nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

[AloeVera]

117. You sound excited.

[yagotme]

120. Well, acid-blooded aliens ARE a bit hard to kill... nt

[EX500rider]

123. Neat, pseudo psychic powers, what number am I thinking of?

[AloeVera]

124. You are funny too.

[yardwork]

5. I'm going to keep kicking this.

[CincyDem]

8. Agreed. Any bets on how many "cease fire now - let's talk this out" folks join the conversation ?

Like few because there's not a lot of room in this account to blame Israel. I'm sure there will be some "but that doesn't justify...blah...blah...blah" with no comment about the atrocities of 10/7 that catalyzed. Jews have been victim-blamed for generations and it's just amazing to me how quickly the world turns on a Jew trying to defend him/herself.

I guess it's true what they say in sports - the ref never sees the first punch, only the reaction.

[revmclaren]

23. New DUer did just that below.

Because Hamas always honours ceasefires.



Update...

Looking at the cadence structure of their responses in the post, I do have to say....

Isn't AI technology and Google translate
interesting tools...

IMHO of course.

[Sympthsical]

37. "new"

[Redleg]

13. That is some real gallows humor

I was thinking that eating the meal after killing them was like adding insult to injury.

[The Magistrate]

15. It's All I Got, Sir

It's that or buckets of gasoline and a matchbook....

[NoRethugFriends]

76. It was alerted on

[Igel]

79. Didn't know you got notified.

I'll dial back my paranoia from 23 to perhaps 21 ... 11 is way down there, much less the maximum dial level of 10.

[NoRethugFriends]

86. on the jury

[yardwork]

103. I can't believe that was hidden.

Jeez.

[LightBright]

7. It's time to stop what has been decades of killing children. Ceasefire.

The end result is more radicalization.

https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=overview

[revmclaren]

19. Right on que.

Welcome to DU.

[LightBright]

20. What is right on que? NT

[revmclaren]

21. See post #8 above.

You really should read all posts in a thread.

[LightBright]

24. I didn't realize I was replying to post eight.

I'll figure this out. Thanks for the heads up.

[revmclaren]

25. No...you were replying to a post about

the atrocities carried out by a pack of murderous animals who BROKE a ceasefire to slaughter innocent children, women and men who were mutilated and tortured by these Hamas animals.

The poster in post 8 was only stating that someone would be along to suggest a ceasefire after Hamas has proven they would never honor one...

Thus the on que comment.

[LightBright]

27. Ohh. Yes. I want a ceasefire.

That is correct. Glad I was on que.

[Hekate]

36. I suppose they could "hug it out," yes? You do know there was a ceasefire in place 10/6?

It was Hamas that broke it on 10/7.

Yes, do read the whole thread. Some you will agree with — but others will educate you.

[LightBright]

40. No clue what "hug it out" has to do with anything I've said.

It's now 11/2. Thousands have been killed. Ceasefire, please.

[Hekate]

50. Common American saying for family conflict resolution....

Add it to your vocab list in your language arts class.

By the way, a lot of us think it’s fluffy bunnies.

[revmclaren]

77. See the translation to my post 43

and the response to it BEFORE I added the translation.

Sorry...added correct number

[Hekate]

90. When we can't even tell for sure if our opponents are human-- ay-yi-yi...

Or as I now spell it, AI-AI-AI.

[revmclaren]

94. Very true.

Probably in less than 5 years it will be impossible unless you are sitting in the same room having lunch.

In 10 years, even that may not be enough.

Interesting times...and not in a good way.

[Igel]

88. Ooooh ... Fluffy bunnies.

Is that with chocolate syrup or strawberry syrup.

(Sorry, never heard the phrase before, but sounds like either "bunny fluff" (like "marshmallow fluff&quot or bunny mousse. Perhaps dinner should have been a bit more calorieful.)

[Hekate]

97. Made me laugh

“Fluffy bunnies” arises from a slightly cynical observation about those who love Mother Nature with such uncritical passion that they fail to notice that baby wolves are not puppies from the family mutt and baby bobcats are not kittens from the family house-cat, nor do they become adult versions of same just because you got to pet them. People like that think all of wildlife is… fluffy bunnies.

I get the feeling from some posters here that all we need to do is tell Hamas and the Israelis that they should have a family therapy session, then link arms and sing Kumbayah around a campfire while toasting marshmallows. If they aren’t trolling us, I think they’re kinda dumb.

[yardwork]

102. Like they'd never even thought of that....

All they need are nice WASPy people to suggest "loving one another" and everything is fine.

[Igel]

87. "Cue".

"Cue" is a pool stick ("cue ball" is the white one). "Cue" also means "signal or prompt".

The homophone "queue" is a "line", the kind you'd stand in for shoes or meat in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

"Que" is most often from some West Romance language. It's a misspelling. Not to be confused with "quai" (also "quay", plural "quais&quot pronounced "key".

[LightBright]

98. I love this. TY NT

[yardwork]

104. And then there's "Que?" Like in Fawlty Towers.

[lapfog_1]

26. dasvidaniya tovarich -n/t

[LightBright]

32. вольно, camarada. NT

[revmclaren]

43. они плохо гугл переводчик

Last edited Thu Nov 2, 2023, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Translation...Google translate is a great tool

[LightBright]

74. Ain't that the truth. NT

[Igel]

95. That is truly atrocious Russian.

WTH?

"They're badly Google translator." Can adverbs perhaps modify, you know, verbs?

Esp. when "oni" really requires a plural reference, and the poster is ostensibly single--at least in grammatical number, I don't speak to their incelarity. (Note that in English a third person of unknown sex *can* be referred to as a non-determinate plural. In Russian you drop the pronoun. "They say" cannot have a pronoun. "They're horrible Google translator" comes out as something like "badly translate (pl)" plus 'google' in the right case that means 'by means of.'

"Plokho perevodiat googlem" or some such monstrosity, at a minimum. Don't know I've heard "Google translate" used in context, and as I was told by a Harvard PhD in Russian, "Don't say something you haven't heard a native speaker say" (with the understanding that threat of injury or extreme need overrides this--better a chance at getting "Don't shoot" right than just saying silent).

[revmclaren]

96. Seems to have been understood by someone.

They agreed.

[Cha]

52. NO.. there was a Ceasefire on Oct 6th Mediated by Egypt on May 13the.. HAMAS

BROKE IT ON OCT 7.

[Igel]

81. Textbooks, families, and keys are sufficient.

Esp. when coupled with tv shows and mosque.

Whole of government has a goal in an authoritarian state that often achieves its goal.

Hamas likes martyrs. It's achieving its goal. Anybody ever ask a sacrificial goat or bull what it thought of the ritual and get a coherent answer?

[mzmolly]

113. Data updated until October 5, 2023

Interesting cut off date huh?

Hamas will not ceasefire, sadly. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218419380

[totodeinhere]

150. Having a ceasefire at this time even before the hostages are released

would be tantamount to a Hamas victory and an Israeli defeat. Israel will not let that happen.

[lapucelle]

160. There was a ceasefire on October 6, 2023. Hamas broke it on October 7.

[Jedi Guy]

9. And this right here is why Israel will not stop until Hamas is dead to the last man, however long it takes.

This right here, and all the other murders like it on 10/7, is why they will turn a deaf ear to the world's calls for a ceasefire and the condemnations over the deaths in Gaza.

This is the kind of savagery and barbarism the Jews endured at the hands of the Nazis. The same hate that drove the Nazis in their attempt to exterminate the Jews is alive and well in Hamas and their brothers-in-arms and all who support them.

"Never again" is what Israel is saying here, for those who don't get it. They refuse to be victims again.

[Redleg]

12. And Israel is right to do it

so long as they don't become like the monsters they are fighting.

[LPBBEAR]

10. I'm sorry...

for the innocent Palestinians who will end up also being victims in this war. I'm also sorry for the innocent Germans and Japanese who were killed during World War 2 when Allied forces bombed their cities.

Hamas is pure evil just like the Nazi's and the Tojo Regime were pure evil. We had no choice but to wage war against those regimes after we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Innocent civilians were also killed then. Its sad that innocent Palestinians will die but Hamas needs to be hunted down and eliminated. I don't see a choice here. That doesn't excuse the Israeli extremists stealing Palestinian land or the corruption of Netanyahu. That needs to be stopped.

Sometimes mankind is its own worst enemy. Sad all around.

[PCIntern]

14. And I'm sorry...

But I grew up in a World War II veterans’ household, and I don’t recall any uttering of the phrase “innocent German civilians“.

[Redleg]

16. I was an army officer and I recall learning about the rules of armed conflict

This was some time ago but I do recall learning about our duties in regard to the treatment of non-combatants in a conflict zone. We were certainly not told to impose massive retribution on the civilian populace or to conduct our operations with no concern for civilian casualties.

Incidentally, my mother was a young German civilian during WWII and I am grateful that the U.S. soldiers who liberated her town used appropriate restraint in doing so. Her father and older brother were both conscripted German soldiers during the war who became POWs and I am grateful that their captors treated them in accordance with the Geneva Convention of the time.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

75. I went through the same training

Difference is that I can recognize the difference between inflicting retribution and attacking valid targets. The Israelis are doing the latter, not the former.

[AloeVera]

118. Sure. Half the apartment buildings in Gaza are valid targets according to you.

Maybe more now. Eventually all will be considered valid targets.
They are all valid. Yessirree bob.

This is absurd beyond belief.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

119. If Hamas is there

They’re valid targets.

[AloeVera]

125. I see.

I can't even be bothered. The illogic and denial is messing with my brain.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

128. It's all in how you view things

I understand and accept the realities of war, you don’t. Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.

[Redleg]

131. And what are the realities fo war?

Innocent people die?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

133. Yep n/t

[Redleg]

134. I'll bet you weren't as sanguine when ..

Hamas murdered innocent civilians, including babies and young children in Israel on Oct. 7 and at other times. Buy hey, shit happens during wars.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

135. First

They weren’t at war when Hamas attacked. Second, there is a difference between targeting civilians, which Hamas does, and targeting combatants who hide behind civilians, which is what Israel does.

One is the intentional killing of civilians and one isn’t. If you can’t see that distinction, not much I can say.

[Redleg]

137. Are you saying that Hamas doesn't believe that it has a constant state of war

with Israel?

To be clear, I am not drawing an equivalence between what Hamas did and how the Israelis are responding.

It is not clear to me that the IDF is taking sufficient care to not harm non-combatants. In fact, Biden and Blinken are both concerned about the number of casualties in Gaza and the tactics the IDF is using.

My main complaint here is that so many posters at DU seem to dismiss any and all harm brought to Gazan non-combatants as being part of the price paid for Hamas's aggression. "That's how war works" and "war is hell" are fucking lame excuses.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

138. You're welcome to your opinion

As I am to mine.

It doesn’t make me happy that innocent Palestinians are dying, but I also understand that their blood is on the hands of Hamas, not Israel.

[Redleg]

140. Shalom

We ought to change to the topic of the 1 percent- we might have more agreement there.

[Redleg]

130. Perhaps, perhaps not

One the one hand, Israeli intelligence failed in predicting and preventing the Oct. 7 attacks. On the other hand, they now have stellar intelligence even during the fog of war.

[Redleg]

129. I don't have enough information to know what they are doing

Even strikes on legitimate targets should seek to minimize non-combatant casualties.

[Hekate]

45. Those of a certain age recall the "good Germans" who were silent, & shut their eyes to...

…what was happening in the camp next door. Their inaction and silence did not make them “innocent” in the eyes of the world, as I recall. Our parents made sure we knew.

It sucks to realize how ignorant our American population has grown.

[Redleg]

132. And we didn't drop bombs on them for their "complicity"

There is plenly of ignorance to go around here at DU lately.

[LPBBEAR]

100. Exactly my point

I lived in Germany in the 60's as a teenager. There were many innocent German civilians who , much like the Palestinians civilians trapped under Hamas rule, had to try to live under Nazi rule whether those civilians agreed with Hitler or not. Most were just trying to get from one day to the next. Much like we all managed to survive under Trump's 4 years. I heard a few first hand stories of how barbaric the Nazi's were to even their own fellow Germans.
Those Americans who climbed into the bombers couldn't tell from 15,000 feet which Germans agreed with Hitler and which did not. It was war and they had a job to do. Not much different now with the Israeli military. They have to eliminate Hamas and unfortunately many innocent Palestinians are likely to suffer as well.

[Redleg]

11. We get it, Hamas are evil mfers

This shit doesn't surprise me.

I recall that our own government bombarded us with this kind of war porn right before the first Gulf War with all the reports about slaughtered babies in Kuwait. We were outraged and called for war. The same for 9-11 when we were bombarded with endless visuals of planes hitting the World Trade Center towers and the rubble made by the building when they fell. Every year on 9-11 we get reminded about this. We were outraged and called for war.

What they won't show us are the bodies of those killed in mass shootings by American gun nuts.

[totodeinhere]

48. We should be capable of multitasking.

I for one can be outraged by both Hamas and right wing gun nuts.

[AloeVera]

126. I thought you were going to say...

The bodies of those killed in those wars and this one. I thought that's where you were going. Silly me.

Regardless, absolutely agree with your point about mass shooting victims.

[AloeVera]

127. And the point about the war porn is spot on.

[Calculating]

17. I saw and read some of this

It's why I support Israel in doing whatever they need to in order to solve this problem
They're dealing with pure evil, and the people who support that evil. Torturing families to death in front of each other, rape, torture, beheading babies, etc. And their leaders say it was justified and they'll do it again...

[Redleg]

18. Doing whatever they need to do?

Does this exclude any type of action in particular? Just curious.

[LightBright]

22. Do you consider killing thousands of children, intentionally, to be evil?

While I'm not big on the word "evil," my question flows directly from your thoughts.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

30. Who intentionally killed thousands of children?

[madaboutharry]

31. The civilian deaths are not intentional, civilians are not the target.

It is sad and tragic that civilians are being killed. It is terrible, we all agree. If the IDF could fight Hamas on a battlefield without a single civilian being hurt or killed, they would choose that.

It is Hamas who has imbedded itself among civilians, intentionally putting them in danger. A leader of Hamas, from his place of safety in Qatar, posted a video the other day calling the Palestinians in Gaza martyrs and that there should be more of them.

[LightBright]

33. They are known about.

That’s intentional. They can be called collateral damage. Still intentional.

I’m of the belief that Hamas is responsible for the results of its use of weapons and Israel is responsible for theirs.

What both of their weapons are doing is increasing radicalization.

[madaboutharry]

44. Then what you assert is that Israel has no right to defend itself

against Hamas.

[WDLAL]

51. "They are known about."

Yes, the IDF knows that Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians, for the purpose of causing civilian deaths along with Hamas fighters. It's horrible that Palestinian children are being killed. What should have been Israel's response to the torture and massacre of its citizens on Oct 7? No military response since children might be killed? Only attack until an equal number of Palestinians had been killed, then go home and wait for the next attack?

Israel is attempting to stop the fighting in the only way possible. Only removing the ability of Hamas to attack again will stop them. You can't have peace when your neighbor denies your right to exist.

Maybe Palestinians will form a new government made up of people who are willing to have peace and who will remove every single barbarian who is willing to sacrifice Palestinian children next to military fighters.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

55. Nope

But you do you

[Cha]

53. HAMAS Did Slaughter Children, Babies, Women, and Men "Intentionally" With their GD Bare Hands.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

54. They're not killing them intentionally

But of course you already know that.

[AloeVera]

62. Indifferent better?

Is dropping bombs on apartment buildings etc. not intentional? What the hell are they doing if not intentional?

But if you don't like that word, how about indifferent? A much gentler word than war crimes or atrocity but whatever.

Indifferent to the mass killing and human suffering.

Oh I know, what choice do they have, it's terrible and regretful but it is what it is. War and cowardly, barbaric Hamas and all that. Repeated ad nauseum. But none of that changes the simple fact that "indifferent" murder of civilians and children is going on every minute over there.

It seems to me that is wrong and should be called out and stopped now. I don't see any grey area here. It's wrong from any angle, for any reason.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

65. They're targeting

Hamas terrorists who operate out of the buildings where civilians are. You might not like it or accept it, but there is a difference between targeting terrorists and targeting civilians.

[AloeVera]

110. Not caring about killing civilians

Is an indifferent form of targeting.

The IDF calls it "Collateral Damage". Not casualties, not victims. Wth? They can't even allow these people some dignity in death.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

111. Because that's the

military term for it. It’s not new.

[AloeVera]

116. I'm familiar with its usage and history.

An inhuman euphemism, it's been called. Dehumanization and guilt-avoidance rolled into one.

[GuppyGal]

80. Enough of this Israel is targeting civilians garbage...it serves them no purpose to do that....really think about

it for cripes sake. AND if they were doing that I'd be right there with you ....you act like they are fucking Russia

[SickOfTheOnePct]

112. Israel could have

already completely leveled Gaza City if they wanted to.

[yagotme]

121. THIS!!!!

I've heard "carpet bombing" used. That's not carpet bombing. All of Gaza City would be a rubble pile if it had been carpet bombed. Israel is conducting pinpoint strikes, to the best of their ability. Which is more than I can say for the Hamas rockets.

[mzmolly]

114. Intentionally? I think asking people

to leave might negate that assertion.

Hamas are barbarians. They are hiding in tunnels while their countrymen/women/children are bombed for their deeds. What are your thoughts on this?

It is heartbreaking that any person, child etc. is in the middle of that nightmare, but (unlike Hamas) Israel did give warning.

[Oneironaut]

28. Hamas is evil. However, lots of these stories are probably embellished.

I have no doubt Hamas went around torturing people, but, these stories are being filtered through First Responders, the IDF, and the US government (sometimes), and then, the media. We should be careful not to believe propaganda from either side.

[revmclaren]

34. Embellished..?

The scenes of carnage that can be found on major news sites are not Embellished.

Why are you bothisming this post.

Almost everyone on DU agrees on the October 7th massacre and its carnage even if they state that they do not support the bombing of innocent in Gaza.

It is not in anyway propaganda...it is fact!

[Oneironaut]

38. You're making an emotional response to a logical argument.

Facts coming out of from the attack are undoubtedly embellished or wrong. It happens every time - especially when the Israeli government is trying to rally people around their cause.

Both sides are using propaganda, but, that isn’t both-siderism. Even the US uses propaganda.

Unless it’s documented on video, or, through an independent investigation, it isn’t “a fact.” We’re talking about hearsay from an unnamed First Responder…

[sarisataka]

47. Yossi Landau

It's in the article. There is even a video clip of him speaking.

[Oneironaut]

69. The problem - some of the things he mentioned are highly speculative, hence my point.

I would believe the entire story if, for example, the house had closed circuit cameras, or, if there was a witness (though, they can be unreliable as well).

I have no doubt Hamas brutally murdered the family mentioned. I’m coming more from how details added are highly speculative on his part.

Other things, like missing fingers, for example, you can easily notice and prove.

[Chainfire]

84. Indeed. Propaganda is as powerful as bombs, and all sides in a conflict use it.

Whether this story is true or not is not known to me, it could be true, but I do know that lies will be told on both sides and by both sides allies. I guess there are a couple of points of the the tale whether it is true or false. The first of which may be that it is that it is less evil to mutilate men, women and children with bombs and rockets than in person. Again, I don't know whether that is true. I believe it would me much easier killing by pulling a lanyard, or a lever, but the victims are no less injured, mutilated, burned or dead.

The second point here is to use the story to justify the killing of other innocent people. In my mind, nothing justifies the killing of children, any children any time. Kill the people who planned and executed the Hamas terrorism, but don't kill them and everone around them. When you have a single murder in a community, you do not kill everyone on the block in order to get the murderer.

[madaboutharry]

35. Yesterday, on CNN Jake Tapper and also Pamela Brown,

showed photos of murdered Israelis who had been tortured, mutilated, and burned alive.
Hundreds of the bodies are so defiled, so burned, that there is no DNA available to use to identify them.

Please don’t go down the rabbit hole by questioning forensic science.

[Oneironaut]

41. I don't doubt that Hamas tortured, mutilated, or burned people alive. They're obviously terrible.

I’m referring to the veracity of this story (and other stories being passed around) vs. an overall narrative of how evil Hamas is, which, I don’t need to be convinced of.

[The Magistrate]

42. I Think Someone Once Lied About Babes In Incubators, Sir, So Of Course It's All Made Up

After all, how can oppressed persons fighting to decolonize their native soil, and willing to sacrifice their blood in the effort, do anything that's really wrong? And how can any opponent of Western Imperialism do anything but support their efforts?


"The thing to remember is that these things happened. They happened even though Lord Halifax says they happened."

[Oneironaut]

67. I said no such thing, nor do I support Hamas.

[The Magistrate]

71. No One Said You Did, Sir

What you have said is first-hand accounts of people who cleaned up after the gaudier atrocities Hamas killers treated themselves to should be disregarded as likely exaggerations, if not outright fabrications.

Your claim is your motive is protection of impartial truth, staving off any rush to unfair judgement.

I see no particular reason to believe that.

Desire to blunt accusations against one body of killers seems a simpler explanation for your choice of this account to make your stand on. Whence such desire might originate I make no speculation concerning.

I have laid down a pretty standard example of boiler-plate in circulation among the 'lefter than thou' in colleges and at demonstrations on the subject. Denial Hamas does, or even can commit atrocities against Israelis, is a routine feature among such.

[Oneironaut]

72. There is no reason to "blunt accusations" against Hamas.

Their atrocities speak for themselves. Also, I think, if one were to believe these accounts, it wouldn’t be a stretch, given what Hamas has done in the past.

However, you mentioned the main issue here - the person in the article even mentioned that he “believes” these events occurred. His telling portrays a specific event unfolding, which, may or may not be true. However, what we do know is that they are dead, and, show signs of possible torture.

Pro-Hamas people are straight up morons, and, I don’t see why they’re relevant to this conversation.

[The Magistrate]

73. Mere Pecksniffery, Sir

It's pretty clear from the quality of your comments you are not an idiot, and yet you are sticking to an idiotic point with idiotic tenacity and fervor. It's a puzzle, but not one worth solving.

[Oneironaut]

83. Sorry you feel that way.

[yardwork]

105. Oh, bravo, Sir. Bravo.

[manicdem]

39. Hamas own videos show this

Hard to disprove this stuff when Hamas recorded a lot of these videos themselves.

[Oneironaut]

46. We know that Hamas has videos of atrocities.

I’m referring to collaborating individual stories. If this one can be collaborated, fine. However, I’m warning about believing possible misinformation that is little more than anecdotes.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

56. It's corroborated

Not collaborated

[Oneironaut]

66. You are correct.

My mistake.

[sarisataka]

49. This is a seed of denialism

*Were six million Jews really murdered by the Nazis, or are they exaggerating?"

I do take all tales from a combat zone with a grain of salt. But I also do not lose sight of the overall picture.

It is like the long debate over was the girl beheaded or merely had her skull shattered by a bullet from an AK-47. The detail that is lost is that she is DEAD.

Did each and every scene described look exactly as related. Maybe, maybe not. The point is, as you have conceded, horrible atrocities were committed.

In the words of those who committed the atrocities-
"Everything we do is justified."
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. "

That is the important takeaway.

[Oneironaut]

70. In that case, then, why go into unproven details?

Also, when you’re referring to six million Jews being murdered by the Nazis, there is a science behind it.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-01-27/ty-article/6-million-where-is-the-figure-from/0000017f-da74-dea8-a77f-de761f480000

The Germans kept records of their atrocities. Also, census data coincides with that number.

It’s much different from anecdotes of how people died and what their murderers did, taken from someone who arrived on-scene after the murders occurred.

However, forensics can corroborate this story.

[yardwork]

57. So who do you believe?

[Oneironaut]

59. That's the problem.

In war, the truth goes out the window. Also, in events like this, stories can change over time. I believe this very well could have happened, but, would like to see proof that isn’t “so and so told me.”

I don’t doubt the stories the EMS workers are giving, but, I don’t think they’re entirely true, given how unreliable witnesses are.

[yardwork]

68. What Hamas has bragged about doing is bad enough for me.

Videos other DUers have seen and recounted sound bad enough to convince me.

I don't need to see proof of every grisly crime to conclude that Hamas wants all Israelis dead, especially since Hamas has been telling the world this for decades.

I guess I agree that you're technically correct that we can't believe every eye witness story, but in the context of the past few weeks it sounds a little insensitive.

[GuppyGal]

82. There is no problem on whom to believe; Israel or Hamas - I mean really. Go watch the raw footage of these

fucks killing people. Have you NOT HEARD the first accounts of the survivors? Have you not heard the voicemails from their loved ones about what was unfurling? Un be leave a ble

[Oneironaut]

85. "Who to believe - Israel or Hamas" is a false dilemma.

While I certainly don’t believe Hamas, Israel is not above using propaganda and embellishment to gain support.

[GuppyGal]

89. Another terrible false equivalence

[Oneironaut]

91. Equivalence? No - Hamas is undoubtedly worse in terms of morality.

I’m not sure what you mean otherwise?

[GuppyGal]

92. Oh yes....just in terms of morality

[Oneironaut]

93. I did not intend to say Hamas is morally equal to Israel.

That would, imo, be a borderline insane statement to make - especially given the latest events.

[Cha]

58. "Probably"? Got Proof? Otherwise this is just spreding misinformation.

[Oneironaut]

60. I haven't given any information.

The onus is on the Israelis to prove the veracity of these claims.

My use of “probably” comes from the unreliability of information when mass casualty events occur. I would have this opinion in any event that is similar - especially if the stories are being parroted by government officials.

[Cha]

61. No it isn't. And, "probably" doesn't cut it.

[Oneironaut]

63. So, people can make claims without proving them?

Why bother caring about the truth then? If
I told you that Russian soldiers were part of the attack, wouldn’t you expect me to prove that claim?

[GP6971]

108. Enjoy your Stay!

[Oneironaut]

109. I don't see the correlation or point of this?

Many organizations have someone who is a bad person in them. It doesn't mean the whole organization is bad.

I second the above - Enjoy your stay.

[Arazi]

107. Hamas live-streamed their atrocities

Someday I’m sure you’ll be able to watch this episode yourself



… “embellished”…. Smdh

[mzmolly]

115. Not likely embellished.

Watch the first responders who have shared their stories, personally. Media has also witnessed much of this via the footage relased by captured Hamas terrorists. Sadly, there is proof of these horrors.

[Initech]

99. I'd say how I feel about Hamas...

But my words are so profound and disgusting that the decorum prohibits me from listing them here. But I will say this: Fuck Hamas, if there is a hell, it waits for them.

[WarGamer]

101. Israel should kill off every one of the Hamas scum...

Without killing 50 innocent civilians per Hamas bad guy.

[Fla_Democrat]

136. The jackrabbit always wins

Maybe they recently watched The Hunt.

[dalton99a]

139. Fucking animals

In an interview with CNN, Landau described the terrible scene he witnessed at Kibbutz Be'eri – an epicenter of the October 7 Hamas invasion of southern Israel, where more than 100 men, women, and children were killed.

Landau said other atrocities he witnessed included a naked and bound teenage girl who had been beheaded, 20 people who had been burned alive, and a mutilated pregnant mother.

[sarisataka]

146. With your discerning nose

Can you please point out which part(s) are bullshit?

[sarisataka]

151. A person does need to be quite indifferent

To eat the meal of a family they just tortured and murdered IMO.

But I suppose that could work up an appetite for some folks.

[sarisataka]

153. What reports from a month ago do you believe are true?

Last edited Tue Nov 7, 2023, 01:11 PM - Edit history (1)

That people were killed?
That a number if them were tortured?
That children were murdered?
That the deaths included civilians?
Was it all just a false flag to justify an attack on Gaza?

>I guess we will never know...

[marble falls]

156. She's back at the library ginning up a new identity.

[sarisataka]

157. .

[marble falls]

158. Cheers!

[keithbvadu2]

154. Some people are happy with the deaths of Jews.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218432051

student from UPenn is seen speaking fondly about the "joyful" images of butchered Israelis from the "glorious October 7

Trumpers were yelling about the ovens ready for the Jews again.

[IronLionZion]

155. Killing children and innocent civilians in their homes is very evil