Russia at UN says Israel has no right to self-defense and Arab states should not normalize relations with Israel.

[former9thward]

Israel has no right to defend itself as it is an occupying power, Russia’s representative to the United Nations, Vasily Nebenzya, said at an emergency special session of the UN General Assembly on Wednesday.

“The only thing they can muster is continued pronouncements about Israel’s supposed right to self defense, although as an occupying power, it does not have that power as confirmed by the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice handed down in 2004,” said the Russian representative.

Nebenzya accused Western countries of “torpedoing” efforts to reach a peaceful settlement of the situation and condemned efforts by Arab states to normalize relations with Israel before the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is settled.

The Russian representative additionally stated that criticism of comments by UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres - in which he stated that Hamas’s October 7 massacre “did not occur in a vacuum” - was “undeserved.”

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771270

[BannonsLiver]

1. There's a bunch of posters here who would agree.

[leftstreet]

7. He's not lying about the IJC ruling in 2004

There are legal constraints on any country meeting the requirements of "occupying power," going all the way back to the Hague Convention and Geneva IV.

What's always been at issue is each member states interpretation of "occupying power."

[Celerity]

12. No there are not. Not a one. (other than maybe some spun-up burner chaos troll account that is soon swatted by MIRT)

There is not a single poster here (other than my exception listed above) who agrees with the Russians that Israel has no right to self-defense.

You just created a pure strawman.

The same thing is done by others who call out imaginary, fictitious 'DU poster Hamas supporters'.

It is the rhetoric of preemptive intimidation.

It is non-reality based blanket attack posts like yours that help to raise the toxicity and vitriolic discourse levels here to degrees I have not seen in my entire time as a DUer.

You are using the non-specificity/non direct reply loophole to make an outrageous broad-brush personal attack on the character of many DUers here who simply do not toe whatever arbitrary line you deem fit and proper.

You also are, IMHO, laying out the groundworks (even if unintentionally) for a novel line of attack, (which will thus inject even more chilling effects on open, legitimate debate, as if there is not enough of that here already) ie the future-forward calling out of people in various and sundry threads as being Russian sympathisers/propagandists on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict simply for voicing a stance that doesn't comport to your (and others') diktats.

[leftstreet]

13. +1

It's just unbelievable here lately

[Chautauquas]

17. +1

[yardwork]

25. See post 19 in this thread.

And post 18.

[Celerity]

27. convenient timing (and both posts by a poster who was not even a DU member as of my birthday around 2 weeks ago)

[yardwork]

28. Convenient for whom?

It's ironic that those posts appeared right here in this thread, minutes after you posted, but I'm not clear on how it's convenient.

Anyway, similar posts are all over DU lately. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Celerity]

29. For someone perhaps (not saying you, I did not intend to make it sound like I was addressing you on that,

my sincere apologies if I was too ambiguous in that regard).

This board is unfortunately open for alt account abuse shenanigans.

If memory serves, we had one person using multiple accounts a couple of years ago to enflame, enrage, and disrupt in general by piggybacking off each of them. A chaos agent using classic nonlinear tactics.

I did, I might add, somewhat address this matter with my stated exception in my original reply in this OP thread.

[yardwork]

30. No question there are trolls, disruptors, pretenders on DU and the rest of the internet.

Honestly, there's hardly any DUer I know in real life. We all take it more or less on faith that our fellow DUers are acting in good faith. MIRT does a great job with newbie disruptors but other trolls fly under the radar for a long time.

And some of us just sincerely really disagree with one another. I don't agree, for instance, that nobody on DU thinks Israel has no right to defend themselves. There are people who sincerely believe this in RL and some of them are on DU. They have a right to their opinion. I also disagree that pointing this out is some kind of slippery slope.

We disagree. We complain about one another's opinions and snap and snarl at one another. We're Democrats. It's a noisy family.

[Celerity]

32. fair enough

[yardwork]

34. Back atcha!

[Celerity]

31. I want to add (sorry for the 2nd reply) that there is a simple solution: people should not make

non-specific/non direct blanket attack posts about other DUers.

If someone is pushing things that another person thinks is wrong, then address that person directly.

Now, directly calling someone a Hamas supporter or a Russian fellow traveller likely may not pass muster here, and that is exactly my point.

Oblique blanket attack statements on an entire group of DUers are just a cleverclogs way around that at best, or simply downright disingenuous if that class of poster doesn't exist (with an exception for potentially sus accounts) to any remotely significant degree (if at all.

[yardwork]

33. I disagree. See my response to your post above.

I might add, your post that began this sub thread is doing that, too. The fact is this is what we do in a discussion board.

Also, if this is the worst you've ever seen DU I guess you weren't around in 2016. And that wasn't the first time, either.

Things are downright mellow around here, comparatively, even the past few weeks.

[Celerity]

38. I was not on DU in 2016 (I was still a teen up until right before the election to put thus into perspective)

I was reading for my MBA at uni in Los Angeles, and it was a horrid time in terms of the fallout right afterward (and onward, obviously).

[JohnSJ]

37. Happy Birthday Celerity!!!

[Celerity]

40. aww thanks! I am now cobalt, lol

[JohnSJ]

42. MBA, but you know Chemistry too

[Celerity]

50. well, not enough to do anything productive with it!

[Wingus Dingus]

43. See post #41.

There are indeed people here who don't believe Israel should be able to defend itself.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

49. Yes

I have seen that as well.

[Celerity]

51. well, hopefully every new problematic account pops on this OP ex post facto (of my 1st reply) and exposes themselves

[Big Blue Marble]

68. I have not seen one person state your accusation.

Many do think that killing 10,000 people who are mostly women and children is not defending yourself.

Many do think that starving 2.3 million people for nearly a month is not defending yourself.

Many do think that destroying the homes and infrastructure of 1/4 of the small area known
as Gaza is not defending yourself.

[Wingus Dingus]

69. Did you...actually read the exchange I referred to?

[Big Blue Marble]

70. No please point it out. N/T

[Wingus Dingus]

72. Game players, playin' games.

Take it easy sport.

[MerryBlooms]

56. It's more than just a few. Way more.

Admins did a great job when they expanded the check profile option.

I just want you to know, I always look for your contributions, and several others. 💕💕💕

[yardwork]

57. Thank you. I've appreciated your posts for many years.

Also, we are sister plant lovers.

[MerryBlooms]

59. Yes we are! Sis, I had a bumper crop of awesome

Flowers and tomatoes this year! My Black Knight Cannas were magnificent, and then did something weird. They seemed to be done bloomin, then a couple weeks later, put out several flat blooms after they'd bulbed. They'd never done that before. I know they prefer night pollinators, but something must have shown up once in a 5 year cycle? The blooms were totally flat. Anyway, I hope you had a lovely season. Ours was amazing.

[yardwork]

60. Interesting!

I looked up Black Knight - spectacular! I need to transplant my Hsppy Emily canna. It's not getting enough sunlight and only bloomed once this summer. Spread like mad but no blooms.

We just had our first frost in Piedmont NC. So the roses, hibiscus and some other things are kaput but the asters and Japanese mums are still ok.

[Cha]

82. Exactly.. Disgusting.

[BlueLucy]

86. Bull!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18421360

[Celerity]

89. already dealt with that nt

[BannonsLiver]

91. What's so funny is

You spent all that time typing out a response and then two posters come along and prove my point!

“Not one” 😂😭😂😭😂

Oh well. One can’t win them all I suppose.

[Wingus Dingus]

35. Of course there are. They're the ones who say "Israel should be allowed to defend

themselves BUT..." and then demand cease-fires, or negotiations in lieu of military action, or impossible "surgical strikes" that harm no one innocent and nothing useful, or counterinsurgency-style house-to-house door-kicking that would risk high numbers of IDF soldiers. They get to stay on the peace-at-all-costs high horse, AND paint Israel as the REAL killers who brought this all on themselves--win win!

[Maru Kitteh]

52. And those posters would be the very first to decry any house-to-house search for Hamas

no matter how professionally and benignantly it was carried out. The "terrible colonial occupiers" frightening old people and small children! Unacceptable!

Of course it is NOT POSSIBLE to carry out such an operation no matter how big the IDF contingent was, because Hamas has made sure that it is not a possibility. Hamas ensured that any serious effort to rid Gaza of Hamas would require brute force that would result in massive destruction, misery and death of Palestinians and refugees. Hamas planned that.

[Wingus Dingus]

55. Yes, Israel is at least somewhat hamstrung

in wiping out Hamas, that is by design--it's really very clever. I see some taunts about Mossad failures and high tech targeting and weaponry, implying the IDF is incompetent as a military force. House-to-house was posited by someone here who thought bomb-dropping wasn't precise enough--someone who either doesn't remember our own troops fighting a grinding and bloody counterinsurgency that way in Iraq, or they are just being disingenuous. Telling a country to do the wildly impractical or downright impossible to defend themselves is the same as telling them not to defend themselves, and some people certainly know that as they're saying it.

No matter what, there stands a ready chorus of loud condemnation at every single move they've made since the Oct. 7 attack. Some disapproval might be warranted, there is always danger of overreach--but not every single move they make in defense is overreach, or a war crime, like some want us to believe. Hamas has a lot of help, and some of it is from people who pretend they only want peace.

[Maru Kitteh]

73. I know the poster of which you speak because we had the same conversation,

or much the same whereby they said that a "covert" operation targeting only those proven responsible is the only acceptable way for Israel to defend herself. When it is pointed out that there are estimated to be at least 40,000 Hamas soldiers and how silly such a proposal is, ya get nothin'.

Bibi is rotting pile of wana-be fascism who has seen the walls closing in on his corruption for some time now. I think we should all mostly be able to agree on that.
Bibi is not Israel anymore than Trump was/is the United States, or W for that matter.
Hamas is a bunch of garbage barely-humans who seem bent on scouring the darkest chapters of early history for ideas to find new capstones for their litany of horror. I think we should all mostly be able to agree on that.

BUT

But there are at least a handful of posters here, new and old, who place impossible constrictions on Israel in her efforts to merely exist, let alone defend herself. Concurrently, they will swear that they would never justify the atrocities of Hamas while also stating that they are "inevitable," aka Israel's fault, aka totally justified.

[Wingus Dingus]

87. Well-said. Always have to try to separate Netanyahu from the Israeli people, and Hamas from

the Palestinians. But Hamas being willing to commit THAT level of terror and atrocities, and still proclaim they will exterminate the Israelis the same way again and again, tips my scales of sympathy and concern to the Israelis. Terror attacks are unacceptable and must be answered, always. And if these godawful maniacs can't be crushed or at least removed from power, what does the future look like?

[lapucelle]

62. I admire your skills. All it took was nine words.

Hey, at least you weren't accused of pettifogging.

[BlueLucy]

84. Sad but true. It's sick!

[JohnSJ]

2. and the repuke's speaker doesn't want to include Ukraine funding

[BeyondGeography]

5. Which is why this doesn't bother me

We already knew Putin is a piece of shit. Anything that strengthens the case for continuing aid to Ukraine and makes his Republican toadies here squirm works for me.

[JohnSJ]

8. I think at least 50% of the House republicans support the trump putin policy, and and aren't squirming

at all.

[BeyondGeography]

9. We do a fine job of not making them squirm

To take just one example, when the usual suspects stripped Ukraine aid from the CR Raskin and a couple of other reps called them Putin’s Little Helpers. And then it went away. Would that the President and our crack Democratic Party messaging team (hello?) take up that moniker.

[JohnSJ]

14. I agree, we should be calling them out everyday

[getagrip_already]

3. and according to putin, ukraine has no right to defend itself since it is an occupied nation.....

See how that works?

[lapfog_1]

4. funny Russia should mention "occupying power"

given what they are trying to do in Ukraine.

Also, stirring up trouble between Hamas, Iran, Syria, and Israel takes attention away from the war in Ukraine, and with the GQP's help, trying to stop the flow of weapons to Ukraine from the USA

The Hamas attacks were long planned... and assisted by Russia and Iran. And Trump.

There is no "diplomatic solution" to Gaza because for there to be one, you first need someone on the Hamas side willing to sit down at the peace table and negotiate. There is no diplomatic solution to Ukraine because the only solution is to give Russia what it has invaded to steal. And if you appease Russia, they will do exactly what Hitler did in the 1930s, take more.

I really thought we had learned this lesson.

Apparently not from all the calls to "cease fire" but those calls are only aimed at ONE SIDE.

[yardwork]

6. Replace "Israel" with "Ukraine" and it's pretty much the same speech.

Ukraine is also accused of illegally "occupying" Russia and thus being deserving of "retaliation." It's the typical double speak from Putin's regime. They're not even bothering to replace the boiler plate.

[Cha]

11. Exactly. REC

[leftstreet]

15. It's really tacky, but Nebenzya is just trolling the UN

He's not issuing a policy statement on behalf of Russia

He's just being a sarcastic dick

[sarisataka]

22. Isn't it literally his job to be the voice of Russian policy

At the UN? He is Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary and under custom he is speaking directly for the leader of his country.

He isn't some Moscow based YouTuber making outlandish statements in an effort to get more views.

[Wingus Dingus]

48. You're supposed to take him "seriously but not literally", like Dumbass Donnie, I guess?

It's called, "making excuses for Russia".

[Army Brat]

19. I find Israel and Russia to be the primary aggressors/opressors in each conflict

Each is the more powerful nation with the option of ending the war.

[yardwork]

23. I don't agree with that at all.

[jimfields33]

26. Definitely disagree. It hasn't been that long since october 6th.

That alone disputes the claim.

[JohnSJ]

39. What exactly are you saying about October 7th?

[Army Brat]

64. Nothing specifically about that event

n/t

[sheshe2]

53. Russia, yes, Israel, no.

Perhaps you forgot October 7 2023. Israel was viciously attacked. They didn’t attack a military installation, they attacked a music festival. Men women and children were their target. The inhumane atrocity’s they carried out on innocents was inhuman to say the least. They executed citizens and took their dead mutilated bodies home as trophies to parade around.

Enjoy your stay.

[lapucelle]

58. There was a ceasefire in place until Hamas broke it on October 7, 2023

with a sustained, sadistic, hands-on killing spree of butchery that targeted babies, children, the elderly, families, young people, anyone and everyone who they could get their hands on.

No, Israel is not the aggressor.

[Cha]

80. Rec.. it seems a lot of people are Not aware of that.. TY

[Cha]

79. you "find" Wrong.

[Cha]

10. Rec bc Fuck Russia.. like it has Anything to Say About ANYHTING at the UN.

[sarisataka]

16. Russia has a lot to say

About which countries should exist and which shouldn't...

A the people of those that they deem "shouldn't" must simply roll over and beg for mercy.

[Army Brat]

18. Well, Israel is primarily responsible for the long term conflict

I suppose 'defending yourself' sounds reasonable enough, but it can be done in unreasonable ways.

[JohnSJ]

36. Really? There were multiple wars where the Arab neighbors tried to eliminate Israel, and that's their fault?

[Army Brat]

63. It's been a very long series of injustices and tragedies

My comment was more specifically aimed at Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestinians.

[lapucelle]

61. Israel is not primarily responsible for the long term conflict.

It has been known, however, to finish wars that other countries (or in the present case terrorist entities) start.

[radicalleft]

65. Opinion Israel Can't Imprison Two Million Gazans Without Paying a Cruel Price

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-09/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-cant-imprison-2-million-gazans-without-paying-a-cruel-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

Behind all this lies Israeli arrogance; the idea that we can do whatever we like, that we’ll never pay the price and be punished for it. We’ll carry on undisturbed.

We’ll arrest, kill, harass, dispossess and protect the settlers busy with their pogroms. We'll visit Joseph’s Tomb, Othniel’s Tomb and Joshua’s Altar in the Palestinian territories, and of course the Temple Mount – over 5,000 Jews on Sukkot alone.

We’ll fire at innocent people, take out people’s eyes and smash their faces, expel, confiscate, rob, grab people from their beds, carry out ethnic cleansing and of course continue with the unbelievable siege of the Gaza Strip, and everything will be all right.

[lapucelle]

66. Inane as the musings are, it is indeed an opinion.

Hasn't his work also been published on Hamas's website?

[radicalleft]

67. Here's another opinion peice from the same Isreali newspaper

Opinion | Israel, Beware: In War, Apocalyptic Jewish Ultra-nationalists Are in a State of Ecstasy
Their eyes sparkle. They talk about a 'second Nakba.' They believe these are the days of the Messiah. For ultra-Orthodox nationalists, the war with Hamas is a double fantasy: Full Jewish rule over Greater Israel and a fundamentalist Jewish from the ashes of today’s liberal-democratic Israel

snip

That is why Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich continues even now to channel government funds to them in a frenzy. That is why settlers and sometimes also Haredi Zionist soldiers riot there unhindered, killing and rampaging and expelling Palestinians. The Jewish jihad is determined to set the entire Holy Land on fire. Israelis who want to live must not take their eyes off it or turn their backs on it.

edit to add link: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-02/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-beware-nationalist-haredis-are-in-a-state-of-ecstasy/0000018b-8c23-d7a8-afcf-aea34fd90000

[lapucelle]

71. Yes, well that's very interesting. I think almost every newspaper has an opinion page.

Many have Op-Ed pages as well.

[radicalleft]

74. Wow...

That's a very well thought out and cognizant response...

[lapucelle]

75. I think the word you're looking for is "cogent",

not "cognizant".

[radicalleft]

76. You are correct

My arguments have been negated by my poor spelling

[lapucelle]

77. I wasn't aware you had made any arguments. N/T

[radicalleft]

78. good night

[sakabatou]

20. Russia can go fuck itself

[The Magistrate]

21. It Should Surprise No One, Sir, That Is Not What The Opinion Says

The court was asked to opine on the legality of the 'security barrier' Israel was building at the time, more or less on the old Green Line. Its course place tracts of land east of that line to the west of the wall.

The court concluded Israel could not appeal to its right of self-defense as licensing the effective annexation of this land, because an occupying power is forbidden to annex occupied land. I agree with the court's conclusion. It included nothing that can honestly be construed as opining Israel is forbidden to wage war if attacked.

The official summary will prove easier to read:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2004/07/108912

[EndlessWire]

24. As tough as this is

I think that Hamas has got to go. Palestine will not have peace until those jerks are gone. And Palestine is unable to fight them off.

Russia is not being helpful, but is self serving. They hosted that group of Hamas guys in Moscow recently. Putin is going to lose his current war; he doesn't need to mix in the Hamas war.

I wouldn't mind if he spirited away the 40,000 Hamas fighters to his war. Ukraine would just end them there. But, let them replace the Wagner group. Maybe Russia can get them out of Gaza somehow. I wonder what the takaway was from that meeting?

At any rate, there is no possibility of any kind of peace talk. Not now. Where were those Arab guys before Hamas committed atrocities and crimes against humanity? That was okay until Israel fought back? Hypocrites. From what I have learned, Gaza has been miserable for years and years.

So we have Hamas less than two days ago declaring that they will never stop butchering Israelis, and Netanyahu's Likud Party declaring that there cannot be a two-state solution.

Well, there can be a two state solution without Hamas to fuck it up. There. Hamas has got to go. And, I want something for my country's aid package of billions of bucks to Israel. For that, I say we get a two--or three--state solution. Everything comes with a price. That's our price. We're going to buy Gaza from Israel. Maybe all of Palestine.

Get on it, Joe. Palestinians are waiting.

[LiberaBlueDem]

41. I hate agreeing with Russia

But even a blind squirrel gets a nut occassionaly

Here ya go, Russia gets a nut

[Wingus Dingus]

44. Should Israel be dissolved as a nation then? Because a nation without defense

against its enemies is a nation who won't exist very long, obviously.

[Wingus Dingus]

46. How would one make Israel go away? Where would you put its people?

[yagotme]

81. "Went away"...

Hamas wants Israel to "go away", surely, you're not siding with them...

[revmclaren]

83. If any country/countries in the region or most

anywhere else in the world tried to make Israel 'go away ' they would very quickly go away themselves. Below should be required reading for those with anti Israeli tendencies.

The Samson Option...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option


Nuclear Weapons And Israel...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

This includes a nice chunk of Russia. This is why countries in the region support and fund anti Israel terrorists. Plausible deniability.

I myself hope that Israel has a long safe existence.

Edited to add...

I fear what atrocities in the name of religion and hate can trigger in the middle East. I would have no chance of surviving a 2 year or longer nuclear winter...of course neither would 95% of the world's population.

Keeps me up at night lately.

[Maru Kitteh]

88. Russia doesn't have a nut, it has a Nutzi

that you say you agree with.

[LexVegas]

47. I've read that same sentiment on this board. nt

[BlueLucy]

85. So have I.

They'll deny saying it but it is essentially what they are saying.

[dalton99a]

90. +1.

[prodigitalson]

54. says occupying power