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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe US Government can stop this genocide
NOW.
Threaten to cut the aid and the weapons.
Enough!
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bottomofthehill
(9,333 posts)also, how do we stop the pogrom against the Israeli people from those who surround them and want to eliminate the jewish people
radicalleft
(566 posts)Settler violence spiking in the West Bank as country focuses on Gaza - NGOs, activists
According to the NGO Yesh Din, settlers have attacked Palestinians in more than 100 incidents in at least 62 towns and villages in the West Bank under cover of the war from Oct. 7-22.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-771247
snip
In addition, B’tselem said at least 13 Palestinian communities have been self-displaced—according to the data they presented a Palestinian community has been self-displaced almost every day since the outbreak of the war due to threats from the settlers.
“The frequency (of the attacks) has increased. In Masafer Yatta and the Jordan Valley people are used to violence from both settlers and soldiers, it has been going on for years, but now it is multiple times a day and in multiple villages,” said a 28-year-old Israeli veteran activist who asked not to be identified out of concern for his safety. “And these days it always come with a threat: if you don’t leave within 24 hours we will kill you…and it is working.”
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Pogrom - an organized massacre of helpless people
I wouldn't categorize Israel as a land of helpless people.
Palestinians, yes. They are helpless. Victimized by all sides. No means of organized defense.
Straw Man
(6,928 posts)I wouldn't categorize Israel as a land of helpless people.
An astounding display of moral contortions. So all the unarmed civilians slaughtered by Hamas weren't helpless? Please stop. Your rationalizations are pathetic.
SoFlaBro
(3,734 posts)
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)No how.
October 7th cannot be stopped now, it's too late.
But the killing of Palestinian infants continues, right this minute.
Shouldn't there be some urgency in stopping it happening?
wnylib
(25,355 posts)of Palestinian civilians with their method of warfare. There will always be civilian deaths in wars, but Hamas could cut the civilian deaths down significantly by changing the way it conducts warfare.
A ceasefire by Israel will strengthen Hamas. Hamas will never accept peace. They will always attack Israel unless they are destroyed.
womanofthehills
(10,721 posts)NYT
“U.S. Officials Fear American Guns Ordered by Israel Could Fuel West Bank “
“An Israeli government request for 24,000 assault rifles from the United States is drawing scrutiny from American lawmakers and some State Department officials who fear the weapons might end up in the hands of settlers and civilian militias trying to force Palestinians from land in the West Bank, where violence has been surging, U.S. officials say.
The three proposed tranches of semiautomatic and automatic rifles are valued at $34 million and are being ordered directly from American gunmakers, but they require State Department approval and congressional notification. Israel says the rifles would be used by the national police force, but has also indicated that they could be given to civilians, people familiar with the weapons orders told The New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/israel-us-weapons-west-bank.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
SoFlaBro
(3,734 posts)wnylib
(25,355 posts)How many infants does it take to defend a village?
SoFlaBro
(3,734 posts)
Quakerfriend
(5,882 posts)not ‘helpless’
paleotn
(21,624 posts)That was the stated objective of the Arab world prior to Carter's peace initiatives with Israel, Egypt and Jordan. What rock have you been living under? 
NutmegYankee
(16,457 posts)But think what you wish to make yourself feel better about it...
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)The bombing.
No genocide happening.
malaise
(293,051 posts)You lose
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)What Bernie Sanders thinks.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)You lose.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)Sanders loses.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)…we’d be measuring deaths in the hundred thousands by now.
As I’ve said before, and I say it again with all respect…think Rwanda…8000/day dead…500 rapes/day…everyday…for three months…24/7.
That’s genocide.
This is the ugly deplorable cost of Hamas initiating an attack and then running back into Gaza to hide among innocent women and children hoping that world PR pressure will come to their defense.
RainWalker
(605 posts)The genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina saw 200,000 Muslims murdered over the course of 1992 - 1995.
https://genocideeducation.org/resources/modern-era-genocides/]
enid602
(9,619 posts)Gaza’s been under periodic bombardment since 1948. Under siege since 2006.
Progressive dog
(7,572 posts)since 1948. Pretty ineffective genocide.
enid602
(9,619 posts)I don’t think we’ve seen genocide. But each conflict over the years has resulted in expulsion of Palestinians. Population increase? Could be due to a high birthrate.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Over 75 years, it accumulates.
It's an easy canard to rebut but it's pretty popular apparently.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)against Israel in support of the terrorists since 1948.
Fiendish Thingy
(22,128 posts)Netanyahu and his generals should end up in The Hague .
BTW, genocide isn’t limited to just target killing; forced relocation is also a form of genocide.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)In Gaza. Israel is telling Gazans they should move south, but they aren’t forcing them.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)How many of the 2 million Israeli Palestinians have been genocided?
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)This sub-thread got confusing.
Someone said forced relocation is a form of genocide. (I think it's more ethnic cleansing but I won't quibble).
Someone else said Gazans are not being forcibly relocated.
I jumped in and attempted snark by asking about the West Bank Palestinians, who actually are forcibly relocated, which you may disagree with.
Now your question to me is how many Israeli Palestinians have been genocided?
That's a bit disingenuous as you know the answer. No genocide. (But as to their second-class treatment, I'd have a lot to say, maybe in another thread.)
But that can't be used to prove there is no genocide going on right now.
I'm not saying there is, I fear it's going that way though. Especially now that the 300,000 still in the North were given a 3 hour window to evacuate 10-20 miles south on a broken, impassable road. None, if any, did from what I read. It's going to get real bad and that is heartbreaking to me.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)So I can respond to it a bit more clearly. With the accusations of genocide out of the way, let's take on accusations of ethnic cleansing. I am not sure what definition for ethnic cleansing you are using, or how you differentiate between it and genocide, but most sources would agree that ethnic cleansing involves systematic forced removal of one or more ethnicities from an area defined by some greographic boundaries with the intent of ending their presence within those boundaries.
There is no question that this description does not apply to Israeli Palestinians, regardless of your views on how various discrimination patterns play out within Israel. In Gaza, there is no evidence of forced removal of Palestinians by Israel. If anything, the Palestinian population gas been growing steadily for the past 50 years, due mostly by birth rates within Gaza. Hardly consistent with the intention to ending their presence there.
2 million Israeli Palestinians plus 2 million Gaza Palestinians, no signs of ethnic cleansing against the significant majority of Palestinians in Palestine.
That leaves 2.8 million Palestinians in the West Bank today. In 1970 it was less than 0.7 million. Again, where is the evidence of ethnic cleansing? Were there individuals and even small communities displaced (not removed)? Yes. Are the Jewish settlements illegal? Yes. Is this ethnic cleansing? Not even close.
Over 6 million Palestinians in three geographically distinct areas, and not a sign of ethnic cleansing. So much for a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Speaking of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing: any sources that would confirm the three hour evacuation window? From what I understand, Gazans had been warned by Israel to evacuate at least a week prior to their offensive in North Gaza, leaflets and all.
And, of course, nothing can be used to prove a negative. So my congratulations on your decision to not say there is genocide happening in the West Bank.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)I said I was not sure about genocide but it seems to me that 10,000 people killed could be construed that way. Willful starvation of a couple million people and cutting off water and medicine would probably be considered genocidal intent. Genocide when they actually start dying from starvation. Either way it's an ugly, inhuman business.
Israel has practiced ethnic cleansing on a large scale on two prior occasions, both under the fog of war and under the guise of self-defence. You know about the Nakba and the Naksa. Over a million Palestinians displaced in total. I would hope that number meets your requirements for ethnic cleansing.
So it's not a far stretch to think they would do it again under the guise of self-defence amidst the fog of war.
Displacing Gazans by crowding them into half of their territory, under threat of bombing, qualifies pretty much as ethnic cleansing. Using occupying powers to displace Palestinians in the West Bank and confining them to scattered enclaves to make room for colonizing settlers in a large portion of the West Bank lands seems like a pretty efficient way to "cleanse" the land you desire for your own people. The areas occupied by the settlers are ethnically homogenous and these areas are growing by leaps and bounds. No Palestinians allowed. I don't know, seems like ethnic cleansing to me.
I'll share my little knowledge of the 3-hour evacuation window. There was a thread on it earlier.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18425147
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)your accusations of ethnic cleansing and suspected genocide are taken for granted and, your references to Nakba and Naksa notwithstanding, are contrary to what is commonly meant by these terms. You keep expressing your opinions that have no claim to accuracy in defining the terms, legally or semantically.
And, your cited source for the three-hour window ince again demonstrates how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing: it refers to an additional time AFTER more than a week of warnings, leaflets, directions and deadlines provided by IDF to residents of Gaza, and AFTER all the previous deadlines expired. You are pretending that more than a week plus three hours amounts to three hours.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Dropping leaflets is not safe passage. This is the first time "safe passage" is being offered. So 300,000 people have 4 hours now to drive/walk up to 10 miles on a broken, impassable road. Gas for cars if it were passable? Walking with children and elderly? What happens if they are still on the road? Seems like an unsafe, dangerous undertaking. It's an impossible choice but works to provide cover for Israel.
Now that they've been offered "safe passage" they will be blamed for not taking it and will be considered "enemy combatants". This is how the coming genocide will be explained away.
I didn't see you refuting any of my points though which is natural when you can't refute history. However you can cast doubt on the knowledge and intelligence of the messenger so that's the route you took. Too bad.
Allow me to give you a refresher on Plan Dalet in the context of Nakba. Ethnic cleansing or "transfer" as it was euphemistically called.
"On March 10, 1948, Zionist political and military leaders, including Ben-Gurion, met in Tel Aviv and formally adopted Plan Dalet (or Plan D). The operational military orders specified which Palestinian population centers should be targeted and laid out in detail a blueprint for their forcible depopulation and destruction. It called for:
Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories:
Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously
Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.
The Haganah (soon to be Israeli army) launched military operations under Plan Dalet at the beginning of April 1948. Although attacks by Zionist forces against Palestinian population centers actually began a few days after the UN Partition Plan was passed on November 29, 1947, with the adoption of Plan Dalet expulsions accelerated and became systematic, marking a new phase in the conflict in which Zionist and then Israeli forces went on "the offensive," in the words of Israeli historian Benny Morris.
Following Israel's establishment on May 14, 1948, the new Israeli government set up an unofficial body, the "Transfer Committee," to oversee the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages or their repopulation with Jews, and to prevent displaced Palestinians from returning to their homes. In a report presented to Ben-Gurion in June 1948, the three-man committee, which included the JNF's Weitz, called for the "destruction of villages as much as possible during military operations."
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)How can IDF possibly promise safe passage through the territory it has no control of? Are you familiar with the GIGO acronym? If your premise is faulty, your conclusions are not worth the effort. Sorry for all the time you wasted on the response, but none of it is relevant.
I am truly disappointed to note that you have no points to refute. I was hoping for a legitimate challenge. And once again, your recollection of history, despite being glaringly narrow-minded, offers not a single reference to legitimate definitions for either genocide or ethnic cleansing. Do you expect me to drop my guard and follow you on a lengthy wild goose chase that doesn't actually involve any geese? No thank you.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Feel free to spread your...whatever it is. I won't be paying attention.
That you won't even admit that Israel has finally guaranteed a window of time in which they will not bomb the road as safe passage... and that it's different from just dropping leaflets...says everything.
Good day.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Because you don't.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)n/t
JustAnotherGen
(37,603 posts)Intercepting foreign aid for its personal arsenal for years. They are the political leadership. They know what they have to do - to give their people relief.
They refuse to give up the Hostages.
They won't give up the perpetrators of a horrific, callous, and cruel massacre.
Seems pretty simple to me. I'm not seeing Palestinians women being paraded around after being raped to the point that they have blood on the back of their pants.
I can never unsee that.
They did NOT deserve that. IDGAF what Bibi or the Likud did.
Those women didn't deserve that. Full stop.
No both sides.
ETA - gift article on WaPo. Third video. Its not made up. It REALLY happened and I'm accepting being pissed on my back and told it is raining.
They really raped and beat a woman.
https://wapo.st/3srktoz
wnylib
(25,355 posts)Response to AloeVera (Reply #58)
AloeVera This message was self-deleted by its author.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)If it’s not numbers, what is it…that someone thinks it’s genocide? Even if we use the Bosnia Muslim experience as the basis…we’re nowhere near that.
And when you want to go the The Hague, let’s not forget they charged milosavic and company with genocide but after 2 years of trial, it was not included in the guilty verdicts.
Not sure why but since they probably put more thought into it than all of us together and concluded genocide was a higher bar…I’m not sure bibi is (or should be) losing sleep about a trip to The Hague.
Fiendish Thingy
(22,128 posts)Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]
It’s genocide.
At least Hamas declared their intentions.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Let alone deliberately doing so.
And are you suggesting that Hamas declaring intent to commit genocide is in any way permissible?
That's insane.
Fiendish Thingy
(22,128 posts)Hamas openly admits its genocidal intentions, whereas Netanyahu’s government obfuscates, but clearly prefers war over peace as a means to stay in power.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)with accusations of genocide.
One is genocide. The other is not. And you know which is which. One can check the Rome Convention Convention on this matter if one has any doubts.
Fiendish Thingy
(22,128 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)
Why is Israel expected to admit something that doesn't meet the legal criteria for making a legitimate accusation?
revmclaren
(2,613 posts)So...there is that.
Any suggestions of war crimes will be investigated by those whose expertise it is, not anonymous posters on a website or even politicians who have absolutely no experience in the matter.
Have a nice night...or day depending where you are.
PCIntern
(27,987 posts)
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)determines a genocide, Jesus.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)The definition of genocide requires the attempt to destroy a group of people. You can't really do that without harming a large number of people.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)In the coming days/weeks, we will be hearing about the civilians killed in the north of Gaza. There are 300,000 of them still there.
The useless and demented 3-hour evacuation window given by Israel now gives cover for horrors to come. Coupled with the repeated communications blackouts, we may not know for some time what is really happening. I fear the worst is to come.
SoFlaBro
(3,734 posts)enid602
(9,619 posts)Do you really believe that the 70% of American Democrats who disagree with Israeli handling of Gaza do so because they are fooled by Hamas?
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)From their 11/2 poll data on their web site.
————-
Half of voters (50 percent) approve of the way Israel is responding to the October 7th Hamas terrorist attack, while 35 percent disapprove, and 15 percent did not offer an opinion.
There are wide gaps among party and age groups.
Republicans (75 - 14 percent) and independents (46 - 39 percent) approve, while Democrats (49 - 33 percent) disapprove.
Voters 65 years of age and over (59 - 27 percent), voters 50 - 64 years old (58 - 26 percent), and voters 35 - 49 years old (48 - 38 percent) approve of the way Israel is responding to the October 7th Hamas terrorist attack, while voters 18 - 34 years old (52 - 32 percent) disapprove.
————
Help me get to 70%.
Oops; looks like Dems (49 to 33 percent) disapprove. Sorry about that. Still, those are pretty bad numbers. Nothing to brag about.
And Darfur and Rwanda? I think people feel that Israel is better than that. We’ll see.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts) claudette
(5,455 posts)called collective punishment on innocents by the Israeli government. How many children have to die to quench the revenge?
wnylib
(25,355 posts)It is not directed at collective punishment. If you disagree with the war strategy because of its effect on the civilians, that's a valid argument. But calling it collective punishment is incorrect.
claudette
(5,455 posts)Palestinian infants are so powerful they need bombs to disempower them. I think it's ok to call it collective punishment since there are attacks on apartments , houses and refugee camps where its known civilians are located instead of targeted attacks on known places where Hamas fighters are found. Just my opinion
edisdead
(3,396 posts)This is NOT genocide. HOWEVER, if Hamas had the capability you can bet sure as shit they would commit genocide on Israel.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.” -Golda Meir
There’s another quote I can’t find right now..in effect: Peace will only come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us.
Yep.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)
former9thward
(33,424 posts)She said it in her autobiography , A Land of Our Own.
“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/664790-when-peace-comes-we-will-perhaps-in-time-be-able
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)She did not speak at the National Press Club in 1957. She did give a speech at a luncheon there in 1956. But the line is not in a transcript of the speech.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)And you gave no links to your statements.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)EX500rider
(12,205 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)comments compiled by Marie Syrkin. But there's no citation on that quote; there's no other record of whether she actually said it, simply a date. This article also makes the case that it doesn't really fit with the rest of her politics: https://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/The-mystery-of-Golda-Meirs-golden-gems,6147?page=1
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)Interesting result.
While many sources use the quote, research by The Jewish Press count not confirm an original source.
What they did find was: “Peace will come when Nasser loves his own children more than he hates the Israelis”
Close in concept but worth getting it right. Thanks.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)former9thward
(33,424 posts)
Jedi Guy
(3,425 posts)It's still true.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)
chouchou
(2,824 posts)(Right Now.....He's going back this Wednesday)
His comment was: "That person knows exactly what they're talking about"
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)“When we kill the children of Arabs, the Arabs made us do it. They hate us so much, they are so angry, that they do things that enrage us and make us kill children. If they were decent people who loved their children, they would set aside their hatred and stop provoking us, and we would then stop killing the children.
SNIP
The broad outlines of the terrible history of the Jewish people over the centuries is relatively well-known to many of us. But unfortunately, many members of the show business community are not very aware of the tragic history of the Palestinian people. And yet the fact is that in my own lifetime (I was born in 1943) the Palestinian people have been expelled from their land and subjected to unceasing and unjustifiable torment, including a brutal occupation and, in Gaza, a regime in which an entire population has been placed on a starvation diet.
Anyone who learns more about what has happened can’t help but realize that the anger of the Palestinians cannot be ended by killing their children. That is a fantasy. Human beings simply aren’t made that way."
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)"...the anger of the Palestinians cannot be ended by killing their children". Agree that's fantasy but maybe there's a quote somewhere along the lines of "...Palestinians cannot build a future by consistently risking the lives of their children".
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Ii'm sure you meant that in a sincere way.
Seems to me Palestinians haven't felt too hopeful of a future, living as they do under occupation, violence from illegal settlers and having their lands illegally annexed and all. Now having bombs rained down on their homes, killing their children.
They are not the ones killing their children. And btw they love their children too. They are human after all.
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)So many times I see posts where people say "I've been lurking here for 9 years and finally decided to post.". lol. it's a "discussion" board so it's good to see new folks just jump in like it's a chilly swimming pool.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Under my prickly opinions is someone who appreciates a classy gesture. Thank you.
Have a good night!
wnylib
(25,355 posts)peace and their own nation in 1948. They rejected it in favor of launching wars and terrorist attacks on Israel. They lost the wars. That's how they ended up as displaced refugees. What country keeps people within its borders whose mission in life is to destroy that country?
But some Palestinians stayed within Israel without trying to destroy it. 20% of Israel's citizen population are Palestinian.
Hekate
(100,132 posts)yagotme
(4,129 posts)US cuts off aid. Israel continues fighting. Israel eventually runs out of combat stuff. Hamas (who is supplied by Iran, and others), keeps fighting. Israel is pushed back, under constant rocket fire, until Hamas controls ALL the land. Where in this scenario do you tell Hamas to stop? Guess what, they're not gonna.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)No country with nukes who is pushed into a corner and facing annihilation because allies have cut off their weapons is just going to sit there and be destroyed.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)Problem is, any nukes used on Gaza would affect Israel as well, due to distance, weather conditions. 5 miles wide. That's a fart for a decent size bomb.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)But again, total annihilation v. partial annihilation…who knows?
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)That seems lost somehow here.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)Do you roll over and die, or do you kill your enemy while you die?
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Not now and not before either. So happily that horrific scenario will never play out.
On the other hand, Israel is quite capable of destroying Gaza as we are witnessing.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)Another thread, I brought up the Iron Dome. If Hamas were to shoot hundreds of missiles rapidly, the Dome would be overwhelmed/out of missiles. The sub thread this is in was merely a what-if mental exercise, giving the scenario that Israel was cut off from aid, and Hamas going full blast.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Gaza is destroyed. They'll finish it off soon. As planned.
The level of despair and hopelessness of those poor people is...unimaginable. Don't you think?
yagotme
(4,129 posts)I wish the Palestinian government had taken care of it's own people more than shunting funds aside for a war with Israel. Priorities, you know.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Nah. This is on Israel. They are waging a war on the defenseless people of Gaza with their mighty military while flouting all laws of war.
The transparent victim-blaming and guilt-avoidance of those defending Israel is tiresome and wearing very thin with the world.
This kind of "wish" for the Palestinian people rings hollow.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)So, Israel attacked and killed roughly 1400 of it's own citizens, and blames it on Hamas. Kidnapped 200+ more, and "disappeared" them, as Hamas isn't holding them hostage, right?
So, no Israel casualties, right, as Gazans are totally defenseless. OK.
All? Each and every one? Cite, please.
Same can be said for the presumption that all of Gazans are innocent. Their government is not, nor their militant fighters. That's who Israel is trying to eliminate.
So, it's hollow for me to wish the government of a country would prioritize it's own citizens over whatever military ideology it has. Gotcha.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)You must believe that October 7th justifies Israel's response.
You know I was talking about the way Israel is waging this war, not about October 7th. THAT is on Israel.
But you had to pivot to Oct 7th.
In context, I was referring to all laws of war pertaining to the safeguarding of civilians. Proportionality, necessity etc.
In the words of the UN, "Gaza is a graveyard for children".
Hundreds of boys and girls and yes Babies, killed every day.
Children that were half-starved already. What justification can there be for withholding food, water, medicine to civilians for a month already? Flouting humanitarian laws and inflicting more suffering. It's a cruel collective punishment.
Are you seriously comparing the 28 Israeli soldier deaths, all incurred since the ground invasion, with the close to 10,000 Palestinian deaths? I really don't know how to even respond to that point. But it's very revealing in itself.
All civilians are defenseless, soldiers are not. See the difference?
If Israel is only going after Hamas fighters and leaders, why are so many women, children, old people and other civilians being killed? It's happening because international laws on war are not being followed.
Oh but I see now that the targets include "people in government". Given that the government is the largest employer in Gaza, are you seriosly saying that doctors, paramedics, civil servants and even road workers are non-innocents? I should have seen THIS coming.
Yes I have a big problem with Israel's war conduct as does most of the world.
Your "wish" for Palestinians rings hollow precisely because of your thinking and beliefs. If you are willing to excuse the mass slaughter of their civilians, many children, your "wishes" for them are irrelevant and meaningless. Born not of genuine concern for their well- being but to somehow score points for your side. Hollow.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)Of course it's going to be brought up. If not for Oct 7, the Israeli military wouldn't be in Gaza right now, would they. Therefore the way the war is being waged, would be a moot point. If you don't see this, I don't know what to tell you.
Again, I ask for a cite, as to which particular laws they are breaking. They are available online. What I have seen, they are conducting the war as best they can. If you think they are in violation, please reference which law they're breaking.
Hundreds of boys and girls and yes Babies, killed every day.
Hamas is using civilians for human shields. It's been said that approx. 1/2 of Gaza are "children". No age bracket. So, if you drop a bomb on a building that Hamas is using for cover, 30 civilians are in the building, law of averages tells us that at least 15 of them are going to be "children". BTW, any male 15 or older is likely to be recruited by Hamas for fighting. No real age restriction there. Not like us, or Israel.
How many of those kids were starving, suffering, BEFORE Israel invaded? By the hands of their own government? Hamas is known to steal the aid from other countries, to use for themselves, not the civilian population.
You're right, but not how you think you are. It's against international law to use citizens as shields. To build/store wartime munitions in/near civilian locations. HAMAS is violating international law. Will you support them being prosecuted for that?
You forgot to add the word "Muslim" in front of "world". They are the chief complainants. They are also wanting to see Israel disappear. Bias?
Now, you're saying you think you know what I think. Hamas is at primary fault here. They don't take care of their own population. They attack Israel constantly (or did you forget the missiles they constantly launch, or the occasional suicide bomber). They make off with aid money that could have been used to build up their infrastructure, instead of relying on Israel to provide it. They made a massive incursion into Israel in Oct, killing men, women, CHILDREN, and BABIES. Have you expressed any sympathy for the Israeli individuals, who were DIRECTLY murdered, tortured, raped, etc.? Maybe that hollow sound you hear is coming from your side of the screen...
wnylib
(25,355 posts)who is backed by Russia. Then there is Hezbollah which is more powerful than Hamas and also backed by Iran. The combined forces of Hamas and Hezbollah, with backing from Iran and from Arabic nations in the region could destroy Israel if Israel had to go it alone.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)You'd think someone would have thought of that before lighting a match for a conflagration.
How naive to think that could not happen.
Why do you think some of us are screaming for this to stop?
However it's a bit worrisome to claim all along Hamas alone could destroy Israel and then later point to its alliances as proof of their strength.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Hamas should have thought of it before the lit the conflagration- I agree.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)We should expect higher standards of deliberation and conduct from a "beacon of democracy" nation-state in the Middle East than we do from a terrorist organization.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)On who lit the conflagration; it certainly wasn’t Israel.
AloeVera
(4,009 posts)Israel threw gasoline on it. Maybe that's better.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)wnylib
(25,355 posts)dud get control of Israel and therefore, of Israel's nukes. Nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists is the world's worst nightmare.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)Misusing words like "genocide" doesn't help.
Earl_from_PA
(294 posts)Let me make this p...ly clear, Israel has EVERY right to stem the planned genocide from hamas... Read the hamas charter...
Hamas hides weapons under apartment buildings, under hospitals, under markets. Making ALL legitimate military targets.
The IDF is NOT committing genocide. They are engaging in self defense
radicalleft
(566 posts)1988 was it? Not a very effective organization at living up to their charter are they?
yagotme
(4,129 posts)I just think that using the Hamas charter as the justification for the bombing is kinda goofy. If after 35 years they haven't accomplished their goals, maybe they don't really have that kind of capability and therefore it's almost like an excuse for an over-reaction.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)They launch rockets repeatedly into Israel, not caring where they land. They suicide bomb markets, buses, etc. They did an all out assault on Oct 7, killing over 1,000 people, kidnapping a couple hundred more, and most of their statuses are still unknown. If someone says they want to kill you and your family, how many deaths does it take for you to believe them?
radicalleft
(566 posts)That's plainly evident.
The claim however that "it's in the charter therefore all means of destruction are permissable-damn the civilian casulties" is laughable. They (Hamas) are at the wrong end (by a long shot) of a power imbalance and the idea that Hamas is capable of destroying Israel (short of a rouge nuke) is laughable.
yagotme
(4,129 posts)wnylib
(25,355 posts)of some Arab nations in the region, and of Russia. They could destroy Israel with combined efforts if Israel had to fight alone.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/26/1208456496/iran-hamas-axis-of-resistance-hezbollah-israel#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20said%20there,attacks%20carried%20out%20by%20Hamas.
EX500rider
(12,205 posts)Add one more failure to their list
Jedi Guy
(3,425 posts)They've only horrifically tortured, mutilated, raped, burned alive, kidnapped, and murdered some of them.
If Israel just ignores them and pretends they're not a problem, I'm sure they'll slink away, embarrassed at their own impotence and inability to fulfill their goals.
"Okay guys, so it's become pretty clear that we can't kill all the Jews, much as we might like to. I know, I know, it's disappointing, but we had a good run and we gave it our best shot, and we should be proud of that. Group hug and then last one out, hit the lights."
CincyDem
(7,320 posts)I hear a deep desire to end the suffering now being experienced by the Gazan population. In any conflict, it’s reflexive to reach out and appeal to the rational actor in the conflict.
I think throwing around terms like anti-Semitic can be the same as tossing out genocide. Both unhelpful getting to a reasonable endpoint without a clear pattern.
I disagree deeply with the OP. But just like I think Rwanda when I hear genocide…I think “eradication of the Jewish people” when I hear anti-semitism. By that standard, OP ain’t even close.
Response to Earl_from_PA (Reply #9)
Celerity This message was self-deleted by its author.
True Dough
(25,892 posts)Judging by your avatar, I'm guessing it's "penguinly clear."
Earl_from_PA
(294 posts)What I don't know is spelling.
I just wanted to play off his proven intent to be immutable. Because on this issue, he is 100% absolutely wrong.
True Dough
(25,892 posts)is what you were looking for.
...
Earl_from_PA
(294 posts)
Polybius
(21,531 posts)Amazing that a poster with 262,825 posts was soundly defeated by a poster with 110 in their own topic.
David__77
(24,508 posts)And people are justified in opposing such unconditional aid and support.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)Like, there's nothing Israel can do that will cause the US to stop supporting it?
David__77
(24,508 posts)
Elessar Zappa
(16,385 posts)Cha
(317,017 posts)sheshe2
(96,028 posts)Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:
-Killing members of the group
-Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
-Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide
It is war and it horrific, however it is not genocide.
TwilightZone
(28,836 posts)Preferably by everyone claiming that this is genocide.
The lack of understanding of the term, its history, and the scope that it implies is a bit appalling. Those throwing it around are in the minority, but they're pretty vocal about it.
sheshe2
(96,028 posts)Exactly my point.
The definition from the US Holocaust Museum spells it out.
madinmaryland
(65,674 posts)The NRA. Oh sorry, wrong violence. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
gulliver
(13,728 posts)You may not mean to do it, but I would say that what you are doing is crying wolf. If enough people misuse the word "genocide," as I would say you unfortunately are, the word could lose its meaning. World responses to real genocide would then be dampened, costing the lives of innocents.
Arazi
(8,709 posts)And they suck and civilians die.
The faster Israel eliminates Hamas the faster there’s going to be less bloodshed all around.
The US needs to provide *more* massive firepower to both Israel and Ukraine to stop these proxy wars asap (and demonstrate to Iran and Russia that we’re not fucking around imo
ForgedCrank
(3,033 posts)like to hear your definition of genocide, and who you think is doing such a thing.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,422 posts)Truth hurts, but here we are.
EX500rider
(12,205 posts)2003- Darfur genocide-up to 500,000 killed
2002- 40% of the Eastern Congo's Pygmy population killed, 70,000
1996-Massacres of Hutus during the First Congo War 200,000
1994-Rwandan genocide 800,000
1992-Bosnian genocide-up to 150,000
1989-Isaaq genocide, Somaliland, Somalia 50,000 to 200,000
1989-Anfal genocide, Kurdistan Region during Ba'athist Iraq up to 182,000
1979-Cambodian genocide- 3,000,000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
Celerity
(53,745 posts)Massacre of Salsipuedes Uruguay 1831............... 40 killed
Black War (Genocide of Aboriginal Tasmanians) Mid 1820s to 1832............ 400 killed
Moriori genocide Chatham Islands, New Zealand 1835 to 1863.......... 1,900 killed
Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State in northern Iraq and Syria 2014 to 2019........... 2,100 to 5,000 killed
Selk'nam genocide Tierra del Fuego, Chile, Argentina 1880 to 1910............ 2,500 to 4,000 killed
1804 Haiti massacre Haiti 1804.............. 3,000 to 5,000 killed
Rohingya genocide Rakhine State Myanmar 2016 to Present......... 9,000–43,000 killed
TwilightZone
(28,836 posts)"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: "
The current situation does not fit. Israel's intent is to destroy Hamas, and Hamas is none of those. They are a terrorist organization.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)but but but but but..... Provide a link, then refute said link! Whiplash! And cherry picking.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,983 posts)And many, many more posts as well.
But this kind of post drives me bonkers. A quick drive-by statement of opinion on an extremely hot-button issue. Also, just redefining words to mean whatever. How is anyone supposed to have a discussion from this?
betsuni
(28,756 posts)Stuart G
(38,726 posts)If the original killing of many Jewish people had not taken place...(about 1000 Jews were killed by Hamas,) we would not be talking about this now. (the numbers vary between 700 and 1000)...What does this mean?
Innocent Jews living in Israel were killed by invaders of Israel. ......
How does that feel to leaders of a country set up by survivors of Nazi killing of 6,000,000 people?
You don't let that happen again....Do You??...
...So Hamas took on the wrong enemy to attack... Didn't it?
If you don't take into the picture, the original invasion by Hamas, and the killing by Hamas, you don't know anything at all.
If Hamas does this again, the result will be worse. This is awful.
Oneironaut
(6,217 posts)Biden is walking a tightrope on this issue as it is. Sadly, while I agree that it would help, it might get Trump elected.
leftstreet
(38,907 posts)
Maru Kitteh
(31,285 posts)division on the left or that pesky Democracy stuff. Oh, and we'll also get to see what a real genocide looks like because millions of Jews would die again.
Doesn't sound good to me. Hard pass.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,220 posts)That's all it takes to compel millions of Americans to vote for a criminal dictator? 
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Is people not voting for Biden. They don't have to switch to Trump in order to benefit him, they just have to stay home.
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)It's a large part of the reason that we ended up with Trump in the first place. From the lukewarm support of our supposed allies, to the outright sabotage of others, and let's not forgot about those who choose to feather their own nests by sowing discontentment and then profiting from it.
betsuni
(28,756 posts)
vapor2
(3,816 posts)edhopper
(37,102 posts)It's stopping another barbaric attack by Hamas.
Calculating
(3,000 posts)Israel has a right to defend itself and make sure this never happens again. What did our country do after 9-11? Imagine if 9-11 killed 45000 of us, and they were horribly tortured to death on video. Do you think we'd call a ceasefire and chill out?
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)we waged a 20 year war, spent trillions, gave up rights left and right (think patriot act) developed black sites, flagrantly violated Geneva convention and committed war crimes left and right, tortured any and everyone we could get our hands on (there are STILL "prisoners" in GITMO as I type), killed civilians in the hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan and defeated Al Queada, the Taliban and the "axis of evil" and put a stop to terrorism and much more!
Oh wait, we didn't defeat anything or anyone. What we did do is kill our own economy, flung the door wide open to contractors to get filthy rich while our soldiers died without the proper gear (and went to prison, think Abu Ghraib and the raping and killing of 14 year old girls in Iraq) and created thousands of new terrorist recruits for generations to come! Might want to reconsider tossing out the complete cluster fuck disaster that was the "response" to 9/11 as a defense. 45000? Where'd you pull that number from?
EX500rider
(12,205 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 4, 2023, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)
unless stopped by Israel
RockRaven
(18,758 posts)to pretend to be able to control. Most of that is bullshit.
We can nudge, or influence, sure. Affect methods or degrees. But stop, or start, or force? Nah...
betsuni
(28,756 posts)
Amishman
(5,917 posts)Israel is a major producer of cutting edge military hardware. Searching Google, the US military buys quite a bit of it.
Trophy (an active protection system for tanks) is a big one and judging by tank losses in Ukraine, a critical one.
We also seem to buy a lot of missiles and communications gear from them.
Back to the subject at hand:
I don't consider this genocide, nor even close.
I blame Hamas of the Palestinian deaths.
Why?
Hamas has a very well established history of hiding their assets close to sensitive targets like schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings. They use the Palestinians as human shields to try and ward off Israeli reprisal, and to leverage civilian deaths to pressure Israel into stopping when Israel does strike.
There can be no peace in Israel and Palestine, no two state solution, as long as Hamas exists. Civilian deaths now - while tragic - must be weighed against the possible lives saved if the eradication of Hamas is successful. The Palestinian people need to stand up for themselves and actively assist in the removal of Hamas.
sheshe2
(96,028 posts)A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.
Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
roamer65
(37,817 posts)It’s coming. Sad, but true.
Blinken’s trip to Amman was utterly useless. His trip to Turkey will be useless as well.
American soft power is dead in the Middle East.
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)malaise
(293,051 posts) roamer65
(37,817 posts)The longer this continues, the greater the odds for it to spread.
sabbat hunter
(7,094 posts)That if the hostages that Hamas has are released, there can be a cease fire.
This is a two way street. You cannot blame Israel solely for what is going on. Hamas started it on 10-7. The Hamas leaders sit in Qatar safe and sound. How about the US government pressures the Qatar government to turn over the Hamas leaders for trial?
egduj
(881 posts)
SleeplessinSoCal
(10,372 posts)This is so much bigger than us.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)Can someone tell me which party is all right or all wrong, so I can know who's childrens deaths to cheer and who's to mourn?
"Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."
Donne
malaise
(293,051 posts)Rec
onenote
(45,993 posts)malaise
(293,051 posts)It’s the answer that brings the argument. I pass.
leftstreet
(38,907 posts)
lapucelle
(20,950 posts)When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-attacks-on-israel-again-and-again-until-it-s-destroyed-196930629782
JustAnotherGen
(37,603 posts)Give up the Hostages and the perpetrators of the Pogrom/Massacre first.
Israel released the Palestinian workers - its a fair request.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Not by any definition. Hamas can release the hostages and turn over the cowardly individuals who planned and carried out the murder of civilians. That’s the only rational solution.