My theory why Trump's defense counsel is going after the judge's law clerk.

[no_hypocrisy]

Any sitting judge is almost codependent upon his/her law clerk. The law clerk scrutinizes all documents submitted for accuracy, such as cases cited to bolster an argument. Or to do research on a particular issue and that includes the most recent caselaw which could be just hours old. Or to draft legal memoranda to the Judge to allow him/her to rule on a motion. The law clerk is also supposed to be an expert on court procedure as well as substantive law.

My guess is that Judge Engoron's law clerk is an extraordinary legal scholar and the Trump Team keeps losing its motions because she catches inaccuracies, poor legal reasoning, and more. And the Trump Team believes that if they can remove the law clerk, her replacement would be relatively substandard, allowing them to have more sway over the Judge.

Plus, another guess is the Trump Team believes it would be easier to get rid of a law clerk than a judge.

[everyonematters]

1. Interesting, do you have a legal background?

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I'm an attorney and have been around courtrooms to understand

how law is really made.

[leftyladyfrommo]

3. That certainly could be. No bottom for

these guys.

[mahina]

4. I bet you're right. Also, they are looking for any way to jam things up and make things harder.

That there’s bullying involved is a bonus. And a woman too- jackpot. Cretins.

It has a very trumpy smell. I bet it’s the old man’s idea.

[grandpamike1]

80. In service for Trumpy

This, IMO, is all Stephen Miller. As this is the kind of garbage he has been spewing, since TFG got elected.

[grandpamike1]

81. In service for Trumpy

This, IMO, is all Stephen Miller. As this is the kind of garbage he has been spewing, since TFG got elected.

[Walleye]

5. They're attacking her because she's a woman. It's difficult for them when the judge is a white man

[Irish_Dem]

11. They are going after her with a vengeance, it is more than her gender.

It appears that she is tearing them to shreds with her notes being passed to the judge.
She sounds brilliant and focused. Catching the Trump lawyers in their lies and incompetence.

They are trying to force the judge to fire her.

[Walleye]

45. Oh it's more than gender, but the fact that she's female make it easier for them to generate hatred

[Irish_Dem]

49. Yes and females might be more worried about the safety of their families?

So they are more vulnerable to death threats.

[Walleye]

52. Exactly. Picking on people who are vulnerable exactly the opposite of American ideals

[Irish_Dem]

53. The GOP is brutal and will go after women and children with no qualms.

They will kill as many American school children as it takes to get what they want.

[Walleye]

54. I think, unfortunately, that the brutality is what they want, it's not a means, it's an end

I wish there was something they would do to convince me otherwise.

[Irish_Dem]

58. It is both. The GOP loves the torture, control, cruelty.

AND they also want the end goals: total permanent power and access to all US financial assets.

Same thing with Putin, who is also a ruthless brutal sociopath.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

72. TFG's hatred for this woman is sickening

[badhair77]

6. Good point.

I hadn’t thought about that approach. trump and his team seems willing to try anything to delay the proceedings.

[lastlib]

7. (the judge's last name is "Engoron."....)

"Erdogan" is tRump's buddy autocrat in Turkey. Just wanted to set the record straight. Engoron is no Erdogan.


Your point is very well-taken, BTW. You may have hit on something important.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. Correcting. Thank you kindly.

[Irish_Dem]

9. I couldn't figure out why they were going after her so hard.

It had to be for a specific reason.

Your explanation answers the question.

Thanks!

So they hope to cripple the judge.

The tell is that they hate it when she passes notes to the judge.
She must be catching them in lies or errors.

They hope to make her stop helping the judge.

[peppertree]

59. Part of it, no doubt, is because she's a Jewish woman

Which, as you know, his MAGATs always react to in a downright Pavlovian way.

She's an easy political punching bag for him, and he knows it.

"I love my poorly-educated."

[Irish_Dem]

65. Yes, female, Jewish, whip smart, cleaning their clocks.

They have to get her out of the courtroom by any means possible.
Getting their flying monkeys to issue death threats.

Then threatening and intimidating the judge about her presence and "passing notes."
The notes must be extremely good information for the judge.

And of course using her demographics against her with the MAGA idiots.

[peppertree]

66. +1

Cheeto is nothing if not predictable.

[Irish_Dem]

67. Exactly, he's being using the same strategies for decades.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

73. That fact that this law clerk is Jewish no doubt plays a role in TFG's hatred

[peppertree]

76. And in his deplorables'

Their favorite boogeyman.

CEOs who ship millions to the Caymans and their jobs abroad? (while plotting to hide out in New Zealand if things go sideways)

"Whut are you? Some kind of Commie-nist?"

[Mike Niendorff]

10. More expert than the judge himself?

No.

Let me give you an alternative theory:

The judge is responsible for the safety and security of his staff.

Trump is attacking a single female staff member specifically to encourage direct physical and professional threats against her.

(* This is fascism 101: create a devil, in the public mind, so he can appear persecuted ... and then "powerful" and "leader-like" by attacking her.
It sells to the rubes who don't get his game. )

But this, in turn, forces the judge to step in to protect both the proceeding itself and the staff being targeted -- which makes the judge look defensive and responsive, and therefore "weak".

The Kool-Aid drinkers view this as validation ("us strong, them weak&quot , and it moves Trump's rubes further into line.

And that's the actual calculus here.


MDN

[Irish_Dem]

12. I think both theories are correct.

1. The tell supporting the first theory is that they hate the note passing which must
be brutal on their defense in terms of catching them in their lies and incompetence.
They are going after her for a specific reason.

2. They are also trying to goad the judge into acting weak and emotional.

BOTH of these strategies are common for Trump.

[2naSalit]

15. I'm...

Right there with you on it being both theories.

[Irish_Dem]

16. It's also telling us that they have no defense. They are just in attack dog mode.

[2naSalit]

21. A tell-tale sign!

[Walleye]

48. Remember, trumps lawyer to take notes. He didn't know some were recording him

[Irish_Dem]

51. Trump knows he is allowed to do whatever he wants.

The rest of us not so much.

[gab13by13]

13. Reason #3

Trump's lawyers have no good legal defense, so they need a distraction away from the fact that the prosecution is eating up Trump and his spawn.

If it weren't for the clerk distraction, all of the talk would be about how Trump is losing this case, by the way, that he already lost.

[Irish_Dem]

18. Yes. "I am a victim" grandstanding is all they have.

Waagghhhh, crying like babies in the court room every day.

[AnrothElf]

14. My (NAL) hot take is team Trump is angling for "grounds for appeal" ... but it wasn't a rational decision

Trump picked out the clerk because he's a misogynist, and then he got smacked down multiple times to the tune of $15,000.

So he instructed his lawyers to go after her, instead. After all, they weren't subject to the gag order! "I'm a genius," he said, waving his tiny hands around like an orange mime stuck in a glass witness box.

Only, now his lawyers have been gagged, too.

They'll inevitably try to use this whole drama (which they created) to angle for an appeal, later.

[TheBlackAdder]

23. That's what I thought, but instead of raising legitimate points that could appeal they make innuendos.

You'd think if they were trying to get this as an appealable issue they'd keep it professional.

As it stands, those attacks they are making seem childish and would get knocked down.

Perhaps they are trying to throw the judge off his game, opening an appealable event.

[LiberalArkie]

36. Unless it is a rightwing appeals judge

[AnrothElf]

42. I think they're just doing Trump's bidding...

Having him for a client means they can't keep it professional. We've seen this over and over again. He forces them to do what he wants, and if they don't do it, he fires them and then doesn't pay them.

But, being lawyers, they'll still TRY to spin the results of his chaos in their client's favor. It's almost pitiful.

They'll try to use it for the appeal, even if it's weak sauce. Because it's all they've got, and they wanna get paid.

[LiberalFighter]

46. IMO their attacks make any appeal very weak.

And the same goes for any attacks in and out of the court against the judge or staff. When they have nothing to do with the actual case.

[Jersey Devil]

17. Having been a law clerk myself I think you are right

Many years ago when I was just starting my legal career I worked as a law clerk in NJ. It was a job for young lawyers who just graduated law school and a very prestigious item to have on your resume, but unlike the system in NY a NJ clerkship was limited to one year. In NY it is a permanent position. I understand Judge Engoron's clerk has worked for him for 3-4 years.

It is not the same as a court clerk, who marks items in evidence, swears in witnesses, keeps records, etc. A law clerk (we called it "law secretary&quot sits in the court room near the judge and basically does on the fly research for the judge whenever called on to do so. Often the judge would pass a note to me or whisper in myy ear and I would then run to his library in his chambers and look up cases, laws or Court Rules for motions, objections, etc. Over time the law clerk becomes attuned to what the judge is looking for and sometimes will help without being prompted by the judge. Since Engeron's clerk has been working for him for quite some time I would imagine she is in sync with his thoughts and can almost intuitively know what it is he wants and give it to him almost instantly.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

90. My experience as a law clerk for a state trial judge parallels yours.

This was my first job out of law school, and he was a new judge with decades of experience in private practice. We were both learning the duties of our new positions and how to interact with the other effectively. We shared our experiences as military officers, however, and I brought to the job my years as a journalist. I was also several years older than other law school graduates.

Since this was a circuit court I'd drive the judge between his home (he liked to sleep in his own bed) and whichever court he was assigned to that month. This was a time we discussed the cases, and oftentimes I would argue the opposing view, a habit I was informed later that the judge appreciated. At no time was I disrespectful of the man or his office, but I can assure you that my role was not to sit passively and jump when the judge said jump.

I tried to serve the judge in whatever way would make his job easier; a judge carries a lot of responsibility on his shoulders, and no decision is made lightly.

I learned so much from my experience, not only about the law but also about the character of the men and women who were entrusted with the administration thereof.

After I moved on he moved up, eventually rising to the position of chief justice of the state supreme court. In my entire life I have never met a man I admired and respected more, and I consider that brief period to hold a cherished place in my heart.

[Jersey Devil]

92. I think I did a lot more jumping than you did.

It was a wonderful experience for me as well, but due to budget cuts the year I clerked I had to work for 2 judges instead of the usual 1, with one judge on the 1st floor and 1 on the 3rd floor a no elevator! I can't tell you how many times I had to literally run up and down the stairs just to keep up with everything and on the days both judges had trials going it was like a circus.

[Ms. Toad]

93. My judge was a Republican-

And part of the reason I was hired was that he was not interested in having a " yes (wo)man.". He knew that to render legally sound opinions he could not live in an echo chamber.

As an appellate judge, the courtroom role was different, since he had the luxury of time, otherwise very similar to other descriptions here.

[cally]

19. All theories in this thread seem possible, but tainted with the

misogyny of Trump and associates. I just assumed clerk was a woman of color because of the attacks. Does anyone know if she is?

[Ocelot II]

60. I saw what I think was a photo or a clip of a woman sitting next to Engoron

on the bench, and it looked to me like she's white. Just being a woman is a good start for TFG as someone to pick on regardless, but his lawyers, who know damn well what a judge's clerk's job is, ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[cally]

68. Thanks

[rso]

20. Judge

It could also be an attempt to distract from the facts of the case and focus on the clerk; after all, the media has been focused on the back and forth regarding the clerk. It can also be an attempt to upset the Judge and make him overreact in some way so that Trump may have grounds for appeal down the road.

[no_hypocrisy]

22. Then why personally attack the Judge and his law clerk?

If your documents are accurate and the judge rules they aren't, the decisions are subject to appeal without dragging in the judge.

When you attack a judge, it's because you have proof of discrimination, personal animus, bias, etc. I know because I tried to remove a prosecutor from my case because she was recently the law clerk of the judge of our case. I argued either the judge or the prosecutor should be recused as there was favorable bias for the prosecutor by the judge. I lost. You need proof, not magical thinking.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. Old legal "saw": If you can't attack the facts, attack the law. If can't the law, attack the judge

The facts and the law are against tRump. He has little else he can do.

[enough]

28. To Trump, public opinion is much more real than legal strategy.

They’re doing everything they can to put out the idea that the whole thing is a politically and personally biased witch-hunt.

[Ocelot II]

63. They are performing for their client. They are attacking any aspect of the proceeding

that they can get away with - they want the trial to look illegitimate and tainted, so they are trying to make it seem like the clerk is biased and up to no good, instead of just doing her job by looking up references and cases as the judge needs them.

[Tomconroy]

24. I am certain they are doing it because

trump ordered them to do it.

[Celerity]

34. +1

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Mostly for propaganda, keep base outraged vs Deep State judges & clerks & pols & regulators & woke this/that. nt

[SouthernDem4ever]

27. Trump and his team should all be planning their defense from behind bars

They are too disrespectful of the courts to treat them normally.

[Takket]

29. I think the lawyers know they already lost

So they are inventing the “bias clerk” argument for a basis of appeal to keep it tied up on court for years to come. That way too drumpf won’t sick his minions on his lawyers who can bow out and pass the appeal onto a new set of lawyers.

[Princess Turandot]

30. This began with Trump himself...

...when he repeated (via social media) some stupidity he read on a rightwinger's blog/social media posts. The source has even created a webpage asserting lies about her. Originally, the accusation was that she was Chuck C.'s mistress. IIRC that's what caused Engoron to issue a gag order concerning Trump's comments about his court staff. (He also ordered him to remove the post from the internet, fining him when he discovered that he had not done so.)

Trump is, of course, very hostile to Engoron. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that at the initial trial he found Trump Org et al had engaged in fraud! (He also fined them $100,000 at one point for failing to turn over documents.) So in addition to whatever Kise et al are attempting to accomplish regarding the case from a legal perspective, he undoubtedly is trying to make Trump happy.

Meidas Touch has an article about the rw source here. This not the first time he's done something like this.

[Chicagogrl1]

31. Think they are trying anything for a mistrial

[Girard442]

32. Maybe Trump wants to sic the brownshirts on her.

[Chainfire]

33. It was my thought that perhaps they were trying to bait the judge into an overreaction.

[Jarqui]

35. I think they're desperate

and looking to cling to anything that might give them grounds for an appeal.

In 2023, she donated $1,001 dollars to Democrats or Democratic causes. In 2002, she gave $3,360. Her alleged limit under ethics was $500/yr.

So the man, in the wake of his charity and university scams that were shut down and fined millions, who the judge ruled defrauded banks, insurance companies and governments of tax and is now working on nailing down the figure in the neighborhood of probably more than $250,000,000, wants to get his case tossed because a law clerk donated $501 more than she should have this year. And he wants her disbarred for making those donations while he skates away with his $250,000,000 plus in fraudulent gains.

Maybe Harlan Crow, with Clarence Thomas in his pocket, will get to decide this on the Supreme Court.

[cstanleytech]

37. I doubt it has to do with that rather Trump's using it to get the free PR with the news agencies reporting

the story just like how he manipulated the news media back in 2016.

[no_hypocrisy]

40. OK, that's Trump. I'm talking about the interests of his attorneys.

They differ from their client.

If they don't prevail in court, they risk malpractice from Trump; they risk ethics grievances; they risk their reputations. They ARE desperate because they can't win on the merits of their client's position.

[cstanleytech]

44. Unless they are just doing what he told them to do though they had better make sure to have proof of that.

[Ray Bruns]

38. Maybe they are just a bunch of assholes.

[Quixote1818]

82. Which they are! So you're probably right. nt

[Celerity]

39. textbook false framing denialism by the Trump side

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/03/crazy-thing-to-say-to-a-judge-experts-stunned-after-explodes-at-lawyers-misogyny/

snip

Trump previously attacked Greenfield on Truth Social, sharing a post falsely claiming that she was Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s, D-N.Y., “girlfriend.”

"Sometimes I think there's a bit of misogyny in you referring to my female principal law clerk," Engoron told Kise on Thursday, warning that he may expand the gag order to include Trump’s legal team.

Legal experts: NY AG “set up” Don Jr. on witness stand — and now he could be criminally prosecuted
“I am not a misogynist,” Kise told the judge, according to The New York Times, noting that he’s happily married and has a daughter.

"I assure you that’s not the issue," fellow Trump lawyer Alina Habba insisted, before complaining about Greenfield having improper influences over the judge and arguing she can’t be a misogynist because she is a woman, according to the Times.

[Happy Hoosier]

41. They are trying provoke the judge...

…into making a mistake they can point to get the verdict tossed.

[no_hypocrisy]

43. Less likely of getting the Judge to make a mistake if he continues to retain

his level-headed law clerk, who will advise him for restraint.

Remove the law clerk, possibly he'll get different advice.

[Happy Hoosier]

56. I doubt he'll remove the clerk.

But even if he does, I‘m sure they have plenty of competent lawyers there to advise him.

I‘m more concerned that they are trying to make him angry and doing something they can point to as bias. It‘s the only hope they have.

[Windicator]

47. Is this all smoke once again, or...

Did the lawyers for the republican conman actually find anything factual out about the clerk?

What I've read so far is just vague allegations that some blog somewhere in the universe is claiming that maybe couldbe kinda possibly there could be something somehow someway that is "concerning."

[no_hypocrisy]

55. The defense team is clutching at straws.

No criminal past. Clean reputation.

Only thing they can up with is that she donated to Sen. Chuck Schumer. That's it.

Nobody should be disqualified b/c of political affiliation, esp. one so tenuous.

[LymphocyteLover]

88. yeah, they are hooking onto the supposed Schumer connection to make it seem like a partisan

hit on Trump. It's dumb and over the top and a lie but that's what they do best

[Crataegus]

50. TFGs mentor

We should never forget that TFGs mentor was Roy Cohn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn
The courtroom will always be trumps war zone.

[calimary]

95. Welcome to DU, Crataegus!

That's good to keep in mind.

NEVER forget. Like attracts like, so no wonder Roy Cohn slithered around freely in the trump orbit.

[getagrip_already]

57. My armchair take - they are trying to force an error....

They are trying to get the judge angry, to gode him, to try to get him to make an unforced error they can use in an appeal to derail the trial with a mistrial or dismissal.

This is what trump does. He pressurizes the legal system with attacks, violations of procedures and orders, and dares the judges to issue sanctions.

Once he finds a soft spot, he just keeps hitting it.

Tiny is not subtle. He has no multi dimensional strategy. He only knows blunt trauma. 3rd grade bully style tactics. Straight up. Don't look deep. Don't look for long game strayegies.

[randr]

61. His minions are still reading Breitbert

and he is throwing them meat.

[Bleacher Creature]

62. I think you're giving him too much credit. He's just a bully.

There's no strategic thinking going on here. He's 100% reactive, and the people he's most comfortable lashing out at are women, people of color, etc. I think it's just a matter of her being the easiest target in his eyes.

At this point it's becoming more and more clear that he's lost what minimal ability he once had to control himself.

[wiggs]

74. Correct. In their world...lying is winning, bullying is winning, grabbing p*ssy is winning,

getting over, framing yourself as victim is winning, cheating, stealing, grifting, hurting others...all winning for sociopaths.

[brooklynite]

64. How would Trump's antics get rid of the Law Clerk?

[no_hypocrisy]

69. Getting her rattled enough to quit.

Death threats via stochastic terrorism. Being followed. Maybe MAGAts getting her residential address.

[brooklynite]

70. ridiculous

First, she’s chosen a job that involves dealing with criminals.

Second, she has a judge and court officials protecting her.

[republianmushroom]

71. They want a mistrial, by any means possible.

[Recycle_Guru]

75. no--they are establishing this idea of impartiality for appeals

[gopiscrap]

77. Or that whole bunch is full of

misogynistic asswipes.

[Historic NY]

78. That could be true, they say she made donation to Democrats which is irrevelant

NYC is predominately a Democrat based city . She is a Civil Servant and seem to be the person keeping the trial running. She hasn't gone to the press.


https://ww2.nycourts.gov/careers/courtclerktitles.shtml

[Hekate]

79. Simple: The attacks are because she is a woman & women need to be torn to shreds by Trumpistas

What was so special about the mother-daughter team that counted votes in their community? They were good people participating in a civic occasion. They were “little people.”

But Trump cut them out from the herd and destroyed them, publicly and viciously, and relentlessly.

It is what he does. No one, no matter who they are, gets away with standing up to Trump — but if they are female they get Full Public Sadism.

Believe it.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

83. It's a display that isn't lost on the many crooked eyeballs watching

The wannabes and adversaries to the rule of law. In other words - the Republican base.

[Demobrat]

84. It's the eye rolling that drives them crazy.

Trump’s lawyers have accused Greenfield of rolling her eyes and whispering to Engoron during cross-examination. On Friday, the former president’s attorneys argued that Greenfield had “demonstrable bias or at least the appearance of that,”

They say something stupid, she rolls her eyes, they know she’s on to them, they squeal like stuck pigs.

[jcgoldie]

85. Its all performative

Look MAGAs... SQUIRREL!

[MorbidButterflyTat]

86. Here's my theory:

They're ignorant bullying assholes.

[Blue Owl]

87. Dump will try every crooked trick in the book to save his fat ass

[Hamlette]

89. I think it is more likely someone on the internet saw the picture with Schumer and made up shit

setting Trump off so he keeps on his attorneys to go after her.

While clerks are certainly smart, they are also usually less experienced than the judge they work for. It is usually a position graduates take right out of law school. Some of them work as a clerk for a year or two but some make a career of it. You are right, most law clerks (as opposed to court clerks who are usually not an attorney) are tasked with responsibility for knowing as much as possible about a case and catching mistakes etc but I'm not sure I'd say they are more expert than the judges they serve.

With that said, I have known clerks who were smarter than their judges but the opposite is also true.

[ecstatic]

91. I think it's more simple than that

1) First, trump knows that he's guilty as charged and his fate is in the hands of a judge who is not one of his corrupt acolytes.
All trump can do at this point is "shoot the moon," so to speak. He wants to trigger Judge Engoron into delivering a super harsh, over the top judgment that might be more easily appealed/dismissed by another court.

2) Second, taunting people invigorates trump. He is a bully and he loves testing boundaries.

[no_hypocrisy]

94. Trump Lawyers MINDLESSLY Attempt to BAIT Judge, He SMACKS THEM HARD - Meidas Touch

https://www.democraticunderground.com/13221820