Growing Religious Threat

[Old Enough 2]

I'm disturbed by the growing religious threat coming from right wing zealots. Mike Johnson and his ilk make no bones about making their radical intent known and mainstream.
Data suggests that one third of Americans do not practice or believe in any god, religion, etc.
I think push back from the non religious community has been nil. Isn't it time for agnostics, atheist, not believers and those offended by religious bullying to come out of the closet and challenge this nonsense before we're all required to be owned by the Elmer Gantry's of the world?

[vlyons]

1. ChristoFascists believe they are going reign and rule when Jesus comes back

They have been brainwashed since childhood to believe in nonsense miracles.

[Lunabell]

2. We even have a few zealots on here.

In one post I simply stated the fact that there was no evidence that jesus ever lived. Historically, no documentation that Herod ever ordered the killing of first born males. No records of jesus' parents, even though the bible says they had to go to Bethlehem to register to pay taxes. That romans had no written records of his trial or execution. I got some snippy reply about some writings from Josephus or some other religious zealout. Of course it was written many years after jesus was supposed to have lived. Yeah, not evidence.

They insisted I should cite research and evidence. I told them, google it yourself. I'm not going to do your homework. It's called: history. I also told them they weren't really interested in the evidence, they just wanted to harass me. No answer back.

[BOSSHOG]

3. Evidence? We don't need no stinking evidence

Faith is all we need. (Maybe a job and an income, and a home and paved roads and farmers and grocery stores and utility companies and neighbors who like us and Christian day care centers and gas stations) but mostly all we need is faith. And we’d like those of you who think you are in the majority to stop believing that the church isn’t supposed to tell the government what to do. Come to church and we will get you thinking right. And Donald trump is a Christian. And stop forcing your “beliefs” on us Christian’s. God Bless You.

Religion is THE root of evil globally.

I hope the sarcasm thing is not needed.

[Lunabell]

4. Truth.

I became an atheist after being an evangelical x-tian as a kid. I became wiccan at 18, then an atheist about 10 years ago. I started researching the real, historical jesus, and realized all of the lies you have to believe to be a faithful x-tian. They call it faith. Don't believe the evidence just have faith.

[Ferrets are Cool]

26. Your timeline mimics mine

[2naSalit]

5. +1

[jcgoldie]

7. "Donald Trump is a Christian"

Pretty much all you need to know to see through that hypocritical bullshit.

[shrike3]

8. Roman historian Tacitus mentions Jesus.

To be fair, he and other Roman historians (there are others) probably got whatever info they had about Jesus from Christians themselves. Christians were quite the noisy minority; what got them in trouble in the first place. In his Meditations, Marcus Aurelius talks a bit about them, and I can't say he's wrong. If they'd gotten with the program, had allowed the Romans to put Jesus in the pantheon along with everyone else's gods, their lives might have been far different.

Interestingly, Jesus graffiti was found in an excavated Roman latrine within the last ten years or so. Some things never change.

[Lunabell]

10. Years, decades even, after his alleged death.

So, no. Not fair. See the post about no records at all during his alleged lude on earth. No records. Nothing. Nada. You know, written records of this stuff were actually kept during the roman times. Don't you think there would be a record of Herod ordering the deaths of thousands of babies? Or a trial conducted by a real roman governor, Pontius Pilate? And an execution of this magnitude after being personally found guilty by the governor? Wouldn't Jewish religious texts of the day have writings about this whole affair with jesus after they sent him to Pilate? This is ALL made up after the facts.

So, again, no not fair at all.

[shrike3]

11. I'm simply pointing out that Josephus is hardly the only one to mention Jesus.

And considering the number of people likely put to death during the course of the empire, I don't know that there'd be a record of one preacher in Galilee, considering he would have meant nothing to the Romans at that time.

The first bio of Cleopatra was written a hundred years after her death: now, obviously her face is on coins, other records so far more proof than the existence of Jesus. But, what we know about her life relies on accounts written many, many years after her death.

All we know of Socrates was written by his friends, who included Plato. He left nothing behind of his

I'm not trying to change your mind, just pointing out history can be a bit complicated. I don't know what fairness has to do with anything, frankly. Have a good day.

[Lunabell]

13. Ok, well I stand by my assessment.

Something of that magnitude of heresy in the alleged Sanhedrin trial of Jesus would be recorded by the Hebrew scribes and it was not. Because it never happened. At this time, there is absolutely zero evidence of his existence and the only story is in the bible. Using real people. Real rulers and priests and these people kept records. Written records that are preserved to this day. No jesus. No Mary and Joseph. No first born babies murdered by herod.

There. Is. Nothing.

[shrike3]

17. According to Jewish virtual library, first record of the Sanhedrin is in Josephus, of all places.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-sanhedrin

The article notes several sources for this statement.

This is quite a useless conversation, since I really have no interest in convincing you of anything. I love history from all eras, and am always struck by the holes in some areas, which are often filled by speculation. Have a good day.

[Nasruddin]

20. Just remember

Ok, maybe you are not aware of this, but there were several rebellions in Judea & the Romans' feelings were ... hurt.
That was not a constructive situation if the Romans were on the winning side, which they were. The results were a LOT of destruction, the replacement of Jerusalem with a mostly-new settlement, & the dispersal of much of the population of Judea & probably other parts of Palestine.

It's hard to inventory what exactly was lost, but it is reasonable to expect some holes in the record.

2nd, the Romans eventually had their own comeuppance from the Goths, Vandals, and ... themselves. We lost a ton of stuff from the ancient world - most of the written record. We do know a little about this, because fragments out of large volumes are preserved as quotes or ... snippy snippets.

[Ferrets are Cool]

27. For me, it's even simplier than that...

If you can find even ONE big lie in a tome, how can you be certain that the entire thing is not a lie?
The account of the Ark is the biggest LIE in written word, yet it is believed by millions as pure truth....taught to children at their earliest years as truth. So again, if there is ONE lie in the bible, why are we supposed to believe that ANY of it is true?

[shrike3]

43. Tell that to the people who tell me Ezekiel is a reliable, first-hand account of a UFO encounter.

It's kind of weird. It's all fairy tales except Ezekiel. I guess we all believe what we want to believe.

[Ferrets are Cool]

66. That's a new one to me.

Are these "religious" or non-religious people?

[shrike3]

69. Non-religious. Also, people into the "aliens are among us" talk.

Talk which is harmless, actually, in the greater scheme of things. But it's just amusing to me, on one hand, the bible is fairy tales, on the other, Ezekiel is real,

I'm dating myself, but are you familiar with the "Chariots of the Gods" genre? Aliens were here and left us with all these great things we could have never come up with our own. I first read that theory in one of those books. Probably where some UFO fans first encountered it, too.

[shrike3]

39. You still haven't shown me a source of the detailed records the Sanhedrin were supposed to have kept.

What's left of them, where are they kept, what do they say.

You sure are obsessed with Herod. Whatever. Have a good day.

[Red Raider 85]

59. It's BS all the way down. Top to bottom.

[Voltaire2]

24. Tacitus and Josephus are the only non religious

references. Both were writing many decades after - Tacitus in the early 2nd century, Josephus in the late 1st. Neither do anything other than confirm that the christian religion existed by the mid first century.

[shrike3]

37. Nero reigned in the first century.

54-68 A.D. One of his things was cracking down on Christians. Did Tacitus and Suetonius make all that that up? Suetonius explicitly mentions in his biography of Nero that Christians were among those punished, around the year of the Great Fire of Rome, 64 A.D. Suetonius is thought to have lived 69-122 A.D., There were probably people around them who remembered the Great Fire and maybe lived through it. Years ascribed to Tacitus: c. AD 56 – c. 120. He, too, wrote about the fire. He also mentioned Pilate.

Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus (now in modern Turkey), wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around AD 112 and asked for counsel on dealing with the Christian community. Again, did he make that up?

There's plenty of evidence that early Christians existed. Not so much Jesus existed, certainly.

[Voltaire2]

42. I meant references to a historical jesus

references to christians in general appear a lot in the 2nd century. There is no doubt that christians existed in the 1st century. As far as I'm concerned, Paul made the whole thing up, perhaps borrowing some bits from existing jewish christ cults.

[shrike3]

44. I apologize then, I thought you meant Christians.

I was puzzled why anyone would think that when accounts of Christians in the first century are all over the place.

The theory regarding Paul is one I've heard before. Valid as any other, I guess. Have a good day.

[Lunabell]

48. exactly!

Paul was a cult leader.

[Lunabell]

45. Nobody said early christians didn't exist.

There are no written records of the existence of a man called jesus as known in the bible. Nobody wrote about this man until decades after his alleged death. Fact. No tax records of his parents going to Bethlehem after being told they had to go there to register. No records that Herod, a real king, killed first born male babies. No records in the sanhedrin of his blasphemy trial. No record of Pilate's trial and execution of this man. No historical, contemporaneous writings at all. Zero.

[shrike3]

47. Where are the records of the Sanhedrin?

You still haven't said.

[Lunabell]

49. Probably Jerusalem.

Ask them.

[shrike3]

51. Probably?

So, you don't know. Who would I ask, anyway?

Whatever.

[Lunabell]

52. Ask a rabbi.

They have more information about the Sanhedrin records.

[shrike3]

54. You're the one who made the assertion, not me.

You said the trial of Jesus would have been in Sanhedrin records. Fair enough. Since you don't even know where they are, I doubt you know what's in them. Or if they still exist.

[Lunabell]

55. I read several articles that he is not mentioned.

Last edited Thu Nov 9, 2023, 02:55 AM - Edit history (1)

So, you either believe these scholars or don't. Not my problem.

[shrike3]

64. What happened to the Sanhedrin?

Now it's scholars? This is incredibly silly. Haven't put you on ignore yet, but that may be an option. So long.

[Nasruddin]

19. Snippius Maximus

I got some snippy reply about some writings from Josephus or some other religious zealout. Of course it was written many years after jesus was supposed to have lived.

Yeah, well ... his history does suggest he was one of the Zealots, but I am not sure (don't remember) what he says exactly about his political position. Definitely worked for them, fought along side them. But after the war he became a favorite of the Vespasian dynasty.

In any event, he does mention Jesus briefly, and he was writing about 40-60 years after the purported days of Jesus, so he's about as contemporary an account as the Gospels are. On the other hand, Josephus' passages have been challenged - all the manuscripts are medieval and there are issues.

[Warpy]

21. Yeah, they get pretty tetchy when you point that stuff out

which is why I don't bother to do it any more.

They get tetchy because they've got enough doubts of their own they're terrified of having reinforced, like an eternity on a cloud, scrubbing a harp is what they're really looking forward to and they don't want it threatened.

As long as they're not trying to push their crap off on me, we can get along, agreeing to disagree. After all, no one knows for certain. I leave them alone, let my hair down with the other heathens, heretics and blasphemers over at the Atheists & Agnostics Group.

I don't envy Johnson his position, even his fellow Tartuffian Republicans think he's a crackpot instead of admiring his piety. True Christian theocracies have always been very bad for business. Any attempt to institute one will be resisted.

[Voltaire2]

25. also most christians seem to be fairly ignorant of their religion's history

Almost always in these discussions it becomes apparent that they have no idea that the gospels weren't written by the disciples, weren't written until decades after the events they describe, were written by Greek literate people, not aramaic speakers, and that their religion was basically created by Paul, although there were other christian sects in existence at the time, his version of christianity is the one that all of the european versions are descended from.

[Red Raider 85]

31. And never mind, of course that the gospels are all anonymous

The names appended to the gospels were done many decades, after they were circulating around. They are not written by any known person, nor do they even claim to be eyewitness testimony. They’re all written in the third person and are nothing more than fanfiction. Plus, there were dozens of other gospels circulating around that never made it into canon. Most Christians don’t know these basic things.

[Warpy]

63. The council of Nicea codified (ossified!) the biblical texts

and began to suppress other texts, especially the ones that didn't serve Empire well. They didn't get to the Egypitian Copts or the Ethiopian church, so a few texts still remain. Orthodoxy was the rule of the day in Europe, Rome's final conquest was one of mind control.

Of course it didn't work any better then than it does now. One thing they did to enforce Christianity was decree that Christians could trade only with other Christians, which is how they conquered what the Roman legions failed to do. Mostly, it was lip service and only fines kept the faithful in church on Sunday. Abundant feast days kept them happier than they are now.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

71. They tossed out many texts

Of the Gnostics too.sadly.

[Warpy]

73. Some survived in fragmentary form

and are available, translated.

I think we can all see why they were tossed, they didn't serve Empire or were written by (gasp!) women.

[brewens]

32. This is a great YouTube channel. It shows what a complete cluster the whole thing has been.

&t=15s

[mathematic]

62. Are you under the impression that the historical consensus is that Jesus didn't exist?

You don't need to be a religious zealot to accept the mainstream historical view that Jesus existed.

Whether you, personally, doubt the evidence is immaterial. DU isn't a forum for Classical Studies and you're not a historian. Frankly, this whole thing reads like you heard the arguments for the non-historicity of Jesus, decided you liked the sound of that, and are now declaring anybody that thinks otherwise is a zealot.

[shrike3]

6. Plenty of believers who don't like the situation, either.

[redqueen]

9. I'm with you

Just not sure how to challenge it

[Lonestarblue]

12. The only way we have to challenge the religious extremists is to vote and to publicize

their goals when we have the opportunity to talk to other people. Kamala Harris has been speaking to young people, but I don’t know whether she would be covering the threats from the Christian Nationalists. The only good thing I can think of for having Johnson as Speaker of the House is that the mainstream media is finally dipping its toes in the water and bringing more attention to his and other Christian Nationalist beliefs about replacing the Constitution with Biblical law as interpreted through their right-wing perversions.

[Gore1FL]

14. I don't think forcing a bunch of atheists to go to church...

…is the win they expect it to be.

I’ll be happy to be disruptive to their ceremonies if that’s what they want.

[Initech]

16. I won't even give them that satisfaction.

In the event the MAGA Taliban forces me to go to church, I'll just sit there with my head down the entire time. Shit I'll spend the whole time playing games on my phone.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

22. I will invoke Satan

Over and over under my breath.and fume with anger and figure out ways to escape them and torment them and I will never be kind to Any of those theocrat control freak nutjobs .I will cause rebellions and fight against them.

[Initech]

15. Agreed!

I was sick when I saw that ABC article that was minimizing the damage that Moms For Liberty is doing. Moms For Liberty is a dangerous and evil organization. They are not in it for the children. They are in it for Trump and Fox News. They are out to destroy public education for good and to advance religious authoritarianism. They can go get fucked.

And too, the religious fascism surrounding Mike Johnson is also extremely appalling, disgusting and grotesque. We need to get these religious fuckheads out of Congress and get the stink of Fox News and Infowars out too.

[shrike3]

18. It's extremely important we do so for everyone, regardless of their faith or lack of it.

The (real) U.S. is such a polygot place that we must have a secular government, secular marketplace of ideas in order to be fair to everyone. Keeping religion strictly a private matter protects everyone, IMO. The wiccans I know -- I know a few -- feel the same way.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

23. Problem is

Christians in thier bible it says to convert the masses.

Wish that rule was removed from the bible along with a bunch of other hateful genocidal hurtful crazy shit in that book.

[Jedi Guy]

29. The call to make "disciples of the nations" is frequently wildly misinterpreted, in my view.

The guy who was the pastor at my church when I was a kid had a thought-provoking way of putting it. He pointed out that Jesus commanded his disciplines to be "fishers of men." Okay, so how does one fish? Does one wade into the water with a club and beat the fish into submission? Of course not, because that's not going to be very effective. You might catch the odd, very slow fish that way, but most of them will be scared away.

One fishes by baiting the hook and waiting for the fish to get curious and take a nibble. In this metaphor, the "bait" is being a good, kind, decent person, or being Christlike. His advice was to make one's faith known and let that be that. If someone is curious, they'll ask. If they're not, they won't. But it should be their choice to approach and ask rather than being beaten over the head with a Bible.

He was kind of controversial for that, and for other stances. I hung out with some kids that many in the church felt were "inappropriate company" for the son of a church elder. Our pastor pointed out that Jesus hung out with whores, tax collectors, and other "dregs of society" at the time, so that caused kind of a stir, even though he was absolutely right.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that only Christians or people of faith can be good, kind, and decent. I've met many Christians who were anything but, and many atheists and agnostics who were incredibly good, kind, and decent. Moral goodness is not contingent upon religious belief.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

70. Agree

And I think your pastors veiw of fishing is much better than most other christians methods.

[CrispyQ]

28. I do my part. Every weekend.

[Red Raider 85]

30. is DU anti-atheist and pro Christianity?

thanks for this cogent thread, but every time I try to post something about how inane and pernicious religion is, my post gets banned. I don’t understand why those of us who are anti-religion and atheists on this board cannot call out religious BS and speak our minds because a religious person gets “offended“. I’m sure this post will get banned as well.

[brewens]

33. How about this. We don't have to give a flying rats assed fuck what these people are brainwashed into pretending,

what they have wrong with the crap inside their heads or how it got that way. With all respect that is due, it's an idiotic fairy tale. Fewer and fewer people are falling for it every day and that won't change. They don't have any reason to believe that crap and are never going to have any reason to believe it!

More and more of us are willing to push back and call bullshit every day. If that hurts some Christians fee fees, they can eat shit and go cry about it!

[lees1975]

46. I consider myself Christian,

and I am not offended at all by someone who does not share my religious convictions and beliefs. Atheists and agnostics usually respond to conversation without the kind of judgmental condemnation and intolerance that I get from Christians who have cherry picked their own religion from prooftexts of the Bible. Increasingly, I have found that I am not compatible, either, with what passes off as Christianity, merged with far right wing extremism.

And yes, the hypocrisy can be stunning.

So please push back and make sure you take your pushback to the ballot box with you.

[Red Raider 85]

61. All religions are made-up and dumb. Apply the "outsider's test for faith" to your own and you'll agree with me.

[Red Raider 85]

57. Color me surprised your post hasn't been banned (yet)! Well said, sir, well said indeed.

[MenloParque]

35. Why would Anti-Religion posts be banned. This is DEMOCRATIC underground. Not believe in weird shit underground!

[Red Raider 85]

58. I don't know but I had a post banned just yesterday b/c I said religious people should "live in reality, not a fantasy."

The email said I "violated the guidelines" or some such. Huh? How??

[Duppers]

72. DU has an atheist forum.

You can shout and bash all you like there.

[Voltaire2]

36. technically these discussions are supposed to be limited to the religion forum

so any op on religion outside of specific forums can get the ban hammer.

[ismnotwasm]

53. The thing to remember, in my opinion,

Is religion is a human invention. It doesn’t exist outside of humanity. And that’s all of it, the good and the bad and the horrific.

So religion is how human beings organized themselves. (The cognitive examination of religion is fascinating)

My point being, it’s not going away, it’s not all bad, and the best thing to do is keep it out of politics.

[MenloParque]

34. Absolutely a threat to my mental well-being. Fuck religion. Every one.

[Mosby]

41. Including Native American religion?

The Hopi religion is very complex. It has a very developed belief system with many gods and spirits; this includes Earth Mother, Sky Father, the Sun, the Moon, kachinas (invisible spirits of life), and Masaw (the world's guardian spirit).

So they all suck in your opinion?

[MenloParque]

50. I lived on the Tohono o' odham reservation from the time I was 6-13 years old. My mother was Native.

As a little girl learning about the Earthmaker and doing a pilgrimage to the Gulf of Californian to worship Rainmaker, I thought they were nice stories but at the same time major bullshit.

[lees1975]

38. I don't think people believe it is a serious threat.

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/2023/10/christianity-is-being-invaded-and.html

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/2023/10/the-exodus-from-christianity-in-america.html

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/2023/10/with-declining-attendance-and.html

There are people trying to get ahead of what's coming, especially with Johnson, who has more or less quietly, but very deliberately, come on the scene. Pick through that blog and you'll find all kinds of information about how flawed and corrupt the mixture of far right wing political extremism with conservative, fundamentalist and charismatic Christianity has become. It is, by the clear definition of the early church apostles, "anti-Christ."

[msfiddlestix]

40. I have faith that anti-religious cult minded folks are pushing back actually. I'm seeing it in last night's elections!

I think we'll see more evidence of pushback in 2024 election results.

What I really would like to see is for Evangelicals in this country to push back on these cult freaks and their intentions and actions of imposing their religious views in office and the courts. Get behind in a vigorous way to codify and make stronger the Separation of Church and State clause in the First Amendment. Call out the so called "Sanctity of Life" bullshit, when it comes to the Supreme Cours decisions on Environmental Rules and Regs, Gun laws etc.

I never see Evangelical groups at the forefront of these issues.

[liberalmuse]

56. I was an Evangelical many years ago.

And I was horrified at what I saw and got out of it. These people are brainwashed and worship a god who has repeatedly told his chosen ones to slaughter entire populations and sanctioned rape against “virgins”. They have and will justify any horrific act in the name of their god to get what they want. See The Dark Ages, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, Genocide of Indigenous cultures, The Holocaust, etc, etc, etc.

[bluestarone]

60. TWO thoughts here.

1) This is for ALL the religious believers. Believe if you want to, BUT don't you think your God can handle ALL things the way it's supposed to be handled? (by this i mean, the ones that need to go to Hell,will be sent without anybodies help). 2) Everyone has the RIGHT to believe whatever they choose to, so just DO NOT push your beliefs on anyone else, PERIOD! Don't bad mouth the Christians, and Christians don't push your beliefs on others. This is simple except, the trouble makers know just how to divide and conquer. Why argue about things no one can prove anyway?

[markpkessinger]

65. I absolutely agree with you, but here's what you're missing . . .

. . . Many/most of these evangelical fundamentalists espouse a belief that "God is in control" of everything." But that creates a number of real problems of cognitive dissonance for them.

At the outset, there's the problem of events that occur in the world that they believe are clearly at odds with what their God would want. I mean, if God is in control of everything, then that means God is responsible for everything, good or bad. You can't really have it both ways -- I mean, God is either in control of, and hence responsible for, everything, or God is not. They ultimately get hung up on their own Calvinistic beliefs about predestination (i.e., the belief that since God is all-knowing, and thus knows the past as well as the future, God must therefore already know who will be "saved" and who will be consigned to the fiery pit of hell. The problem, though, is what does that do with their insistence that a person must "accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." If it's all predetermined, what's the point of trying to convert anyone?

Virtually everything they try to do in terms of imposing their beliefs on others has to do with trying to resolve this fundamental cognitive dissonance, which is ultimately unresolvable. But that doesn't mean they won't keep trying to resolve it!

[bluestarone]

67. i do see your point. My point is

I'm only concerned about number one ME. If God sends me to Hell for that way of thinking, then i guess that's where i'm headed. I refuse to push any of my beliefs on ANYONE.

[Lunabell]

68. Religions are cults. All of them.

It's just that religions have amassed way more money than cults like Jim Jones or Qanon. But, they're about control. Mind control.