If releasing violently kidnapped children could lead to a ceasefire why aren't protesters demanding it?

[Tom Rinaldo]

I stand with Antony Blinken, too many Palestinians are dying in Gaza, and Israel IMO has done too little to lessen civilian suffering there. I understand worldwide outrage over the thousands of deaths in Gaza. A ceasefire would stop almost all of that. Israel says releasing the hundreds of civilians being held underground as hostages. who were seized during a terrorist act that dwarfs 9/11 in relative scale, is a precondition to serious ceasefire talks. That may or may not be a realistic demand, but it isn't crazy. Hamas could release all their seized hostages within hours if they chose to. Hamas started this war with a premeditated large scale terrorist invasion. They can move toward ending it by freeing those who they kidnapped.

Hamas kidnapped babies and tore apart dozens of families amidst the wanton wide scale slaughter of innocents. They have no moral, let alone legal right to hold those civilians captive. Yes it can be argued that the Israeli response, in return, is deadly, disproportionate and unjustifiable, but if Hamas can possibly save the lives of hundreds of Gazans daily, by freeing civilians who they kidnapped, where is the massive international pressure, both in world capitals and on the streets, for them to do so?

[LexVegas]

1. Because they sympathize with Hamas. nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. Some blur the distinction between sympathy for Palestinians and sympathy for Hamas

How many do so willfully is hard to say.

[ColinC]

59. Hatred runs deep

[FHRRK]

74. Yes it does n/t

[Irish_Dem]

2. The brutal attack on Israel is not important to them.

[Think. Again.]

3. Protesters ARE demanding a cease-fire.

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. Of course they are. How many are loudly calling out Hamas for holding kidnapped civilians?

Them doing so remains a key obstacle to actually achieving a ceasefire.

[Think. Again.]

7. The key obstacle to a ceasefire...

...is Israel's refusal to agree to it.

[jimfields33]

10. I wouldn't either after Hamas broke the latest cease fire October 7th

How can Israel trust anything Hamas promises? Impossible to do.

[mcar]

29. You really think Hamas would honor a ceasefire?

[rollin74]

35. Hamas doesn't seem interested in a ceasefire.

'We will repeat October 7 again and again"-Hamas official
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18417418

Hamas says purpose of massacres was a 'permanent' state of war on Israel's borders
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18444720

Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire they want to attack Israel and kill Jews

[XorXor]

36. You seem to be avoiding the question asked here

If releasing the hostages would lead to a ceasefire, then why aren't the protesters demanding that too?

I'm curious, would you be opposed to Hamas releasing the hostages?

[TheProle]

42. I can't decide if your username or sig line is more ironic

If a) Hamas doesn’t want to harm civilians and b) they want a ceasefire, then they should gladly release the hostages to achieve a ceasefire. Therefore it follows that if protestors want a ceasefire to protect civilians, they should wholeheartedly endorse the release of civilian hostages.

[Think. Again.]

47. hamas doesn't care about harming civilians...

...and they certainly aren't going to pay any attention to cute little protests about releasing hostages.

Thing of this way, a ceasefire might allow Gaza civilians to get the hell out of there so that hamas can be properly dealt with without breaking international law.

[lapfog_1]

102. uhh... get out of there and go where?

Nobody wants 2M Palestinians to arrive in their nation. None of the Arab countries. Not a single one.

Where would they go? And who sorts out who is Hamas and who is not? Take Hamas out of their "uniforms" and take away their weapons and you have just another person in Gaza.

Unless Israel has a database with photos and names and DNA on file... I'm sure Mosad has a few but how many?

I could make a radical proposal... there are something like 30,000 members of Hamas, put a large bounty on them with PROOF that they are members of this terrorist organization. Might cost billions... but it would end the war without more civilians being killed.

Just a thought.

Of course, might lead to a lot of false identifications. I think we tried this in Afghanistan with not much luck.

[Torchlight]

65. After this, therefore because of this.

Affirming the consequent is not the best course of dialogue.

[Dorian Gray]

99. Hamas attacked Israel

they are lobbing weapons at them daily still. They are holding 200+ Hostages. (Some of them American, too.).

Ceasefire is pretty much a Hamas decision at this point. Free the hostages.

[lostnfound]

49. My first reaction was 'you're right, that should be a protest.'

But most everyone knows Hamas are disgusting terrorists who won’t give a crap about protests and who don’t care about innocent lives lost.
Most everyone also knows that Israel is a civilized country with a democratically elected government, and warm human beings, and did I mention civilized.

[Tom Rinaldo]

64. Yes, on one level at least it is a tacit acknowledgement

that to some extent, however marginal that extent may seem, that Israel's actions, under Bibi, can in some way be influenced by world opinion, whereas terrorists can not.

The same, in a way, could be said about the United States and a group like ISIS. Our forces supported military operations against ISIS in Mosul that resulted in thousands of civilian deaths. But no one for an instant held any illusion that ISIS could ever be "reasoned" with.

How the U.S. conducts itself in warfare always comes under close scrutiny, which is as it should be. But never was/is there any confusion over whether ISIS had/has the slightest willingness to peacefully coexist with anyone outside of their cult of death, nor of their desire to protect innocent lives. Innocent "martyrs" get their compensation in heaven.

[claudette]

94. Really?

Civilized countries don’t kill 11,000 innocent people including babies, now, do they.

[lostnfound]

105. The US killed 100,000 in a single night in a horrible fire, mostly women and children

Not the atomic bomb. But a massive fireball driven by special jelly in bomblets, intentionally blanketing the rooftops of a poor, densely populated section of Tokyo.

If you are an American who believes that the US is not a civilized country because of this fact, then you are in a very very tiny minority.

[claudette]

106. So you're

Saying it’s civilized to kill that many people? Both numbers are higher than those killed by Hamas - and they are a terrorist group.

[Deep State Witch]

14. No, They Are Demanding That Israel

stops firing on Gaza. They are not demanding that Hamas abides by a cease-fire. Unfortunately, Hamas' plan to use the civilian population of Gaza to gain sympathy is working.

[Think. Again.]

48. hamas doesn't care about public demands or getting anyone's sympathy.

[Jedi Guy]

22. Yes, they are. And they're demanding it from Israel.

I haven't seen any protesters demanding that Hamas release the hostages and stop lobbing unguided missiles into Israel, nor have the protests condemned the 10/7 attacks. Many of the same people attending these protests are probably the same people tearing down posters showing the faces of the hostages, I'd wager.

It's almost as if the protesters believe Hamas has no agency in or responsibility for this conflict and Israel is solely responsible for all of it. Almost as if there were some kind of cohesive narrative at work here. I can't quite put my finger on what it could be, though...

[Think. Again.]

50. Israel actually IS...

...the only party in this that could possibly be expected to act responsibly, let's hope the protests work and they finally start realizing the world expects better of Israel than to mimic terrorism.

[Tom Rinaldo]

68. I largely agree with this

But the world wide surge in Antisemitism is evidence enough for the necessity to speak out loudly, forcefully, and continually against the ongoing evil that Hamas engages in also. The fact that Hamas does not listen doesn't justify screaming only at Israel. A very plausible case can be made that Hamas is intentionally sabotaging any chance to stop the killing in Gaza by continuing to hold onto the civilians they dragged across the border into Gaza from Israel. Hamas benefits from increasingly one sided world wide outrage directed at Israel. It furthers their ends and in their mind justifies their terror tactics. Meanwhile Antisemitism is a virus that has infected humanity for thousands of years. It led to the Nazi holocaust, it has flared up numerous times. It is flaring up again now.

[Think. Again.]

69. I believe you may be...

...conflating anti-semitism with anti-Israeli policy and action.

[LauraInLA]

76. Injecting myself into the conversation (sorry!), but....

Vandalizing and setting fire to synagogues and Jewish community centers (London, NYC, and Montreal come to mind).

Harassing or attacking people on campuses and in the streets who wear kippot (yarmulkes) or otherwise identify as Jewish on campuses.

These acts unequivocally have nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Jews. I think everyone can agree that’s antisemitism.

[Think. Again.]

81. I agree that that is anti-semitism...

(and just to be very clear I am entirely against anti-semitism)

However, if you follow the progression of this short discussion, you'll see that I began with a statement specific to Israeli state policy, Tom Rinaldo then replied to that statement by mixing in anti-semitism, I replied to Tom with my statement that I thought they were mixing anti-semitism with Israeli state plicy, and then you replied with a statement specifically about anti-semitism.

I'm open to the natural progression of any discussion, but I don't believe sidetracking a discussion topic by forcing a different topic onto the discussion helps toward a healthy discussion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

87. No, I'm not. I recognize that there is a meaningful distinction between the two

I brought up increased antisemitism as a byproduct of the pragmatic observation you made in the post that I was responding to. Most rational people intuitively if not fully consciously understand that Hamas militants are essentially immune to world opinion. Huge protests world wide about decisions Hamas makes that increase and prolong the suffering of Gaza civilians, such as their decision to hold on to violently kidnapped hostages as a bargaining chip for anything other than a ceasefire, will not directly influence decision making by Hamas. Hundreds of civilians die daily in Gaza, Israel says no ceasefire will be considered while Hamas refuses to release all hostages. Hamas is furthering the bloodshed by holding onto terrified civilian hostages in the face of that, but the public blame for that bloodshed increasingly is focused on an action that Israel refuses to take rather than action that Hamas refuses to take, and that's leaving aside the matter of how this war was started.

Again, this can be explained in part by the fact that virtually no one believes Hamas might be responsive to world public opinion, while Israel just might be. But that leaves the focus for the increasing world outrage fixed on Israel. That becomes fuel for antisemitism to take root and grow. You and I might make a clear distinction between Jews as a religious minority and the State of Israel, but among those prone toward hatred of Jews, that distinction is not nearly as clear. The dramatic recent increase in hate crimes against Jews bears witness to that. It is NOT a coincidence that world wide protests are primarily focused on Israel alone and that individual Jews are increasingly being targeted for hate crimes.

[Think. Again.]

89. And so you feel that...

...accepting and allowing continued hatred and violence, even on the state level, against Palestinians who are not necessarily hamas, which is the exact affect you just explained conerning Jews and Israel, is somehow now a good thing?

[Tom Rinaldo]

92. Where did I say that?

I had a late night last night and I'm an old guy headed off to bed now, maybe we can explore that and more tomorrow...

[Calculating]

70. What?

Why should Israel just lay back and take it? They're dealing with monsters, erradicate them. Hamas has a stated purpose of killing all the Jews. They all need to be eliminated.

[Think. Again.]

71. I believe you have gotten posts mixed up....

...it's easy to do when threads get long.

Anyway, I certainly don't believe Israel should "just take it", and I agree hamas must be eliminated, now.

But my post was about Israel not copying the terrorist acts of hamas and living up to it's responsibilities under international law.

[Bettie]

72. So, just eradicate everyone in Gaza?

Because anyone, even infants, might be Hamas?

[Autumn]

6. Why hasn't Israel sent in teams to kidnap the top leaders of Hamas who live in Qatar and use them as

hostages and bargaining chips? That would be a lot more effective than protesters demanding shit. Cause you fucking know Hamas or no one else will listen to protesters.

[Think. Again.]

8. THAT is the best idea I've heard yet!

Imagine, only retaliating for harm done to the people who actually did the harm...

[Autumn]

9. They are billionaires, move freely around Qatar. Should be easy enough for Israel's elite

teams to go in and get them, if they were told to do it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. If Justice were the only issue that possibly would work

The other issue is security. In some crazed regimes decapitating the leadership resolves the threat that regime posed to others. Top Hamas political leaders live outside Gaza. But the hardened military wing of Hamas has commanders inside Gaza in underground bunkers. Would they be deterred by the capture of Hamas political leaders? Would Israel be more secure from further attack as a result?

[Autumn]

18. I take issue with you blaming protesters. If it weren't for protestors we would not

have gun control and be able to send our children to school knowing they are safe oh, wait... Never mind.

If it weren't for protestors woman wouldn't have a right to control their own bodies, oh wait. Never mind.

If it weren't for protestors Iraq would not have been bombed to hell and back by the US for no fucking reason, oh wait. Never mind.

And you really think that protesting and calling for the releaser of the hostages by protestors will work??



Spread that blame for Bibi's war instead of putting it where it belongs. Hamas and their enabler

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. If I wasn't clear enough let me try again

I have actively, physically, been a part of protest movements all of my life. So I have had lots of time to ponder how why and when protesters make, or fail to make, a perceptible difference. It's a mixed bag to be sure.

But no, I did not mean to blame protesters for anything in my OP, at least not in any causative sense of the word blame. In a causative sense, I too blame Bibi. Bibi and the ultra nationalist Zionist Right and extremist settlers movement inside of Israel. Yes there are crazed violent religious fanatics and the like who want to exterminate all Jews and wipe Israel off the map. They don't pretend that they want peace, but Bibi does. But through the policies Bibi has embraced Peace with Palestinians has become increasingly impossible.

But though I don't think one or more massive street protests can magically turn the tide in any number of seemingly intractable disputes or conflicts, we all are at least responsible for the views that we promote. Our views always have both intended and unintended consequences. Islamophobia and Antisemitism are both real fountains of hate. I think it is dangerous in itself, for any number of reasons, to either unintentionally or intentionally conflate the Palestinian and Hamas causes. Our beliefs have ripple effects. If we can't view the world in its complexities, we can't positively effect the world in its complexities. Obviously Israel has a central continuing role to play in the deaths of thousands of innocents inside Gaza. And so does Hamas. Their refusal to release their hostages is prime example number One. Too many of us keep losing sight of that.

[Autumn]

20. All I'm going to say is that there have been protests where they had signs calling for the release of the

hostages. But while the protests make one feel good what do they really influence? How many Palestinians need to die because of Hamas, Israel and US bombs? No one here has lost sight of Hamas and their atrocities, some of us just see Israel doing pretty much the same thing. Taking innocent hostages or killing innocent people in bombings? What difference does it make? Dead is dead. Over 10 thousand dead and with the humectation crisis that is building up that number will soar. How many of those 30,000 Hamas soldiers have died? Israel is bombing hospitals, and Bibi says they will continue.

[lostnfound]

51. That's what I WOULD LOVE to see

Frankly I don’t care if they take out a whole building to do it. Maybe if we’re lucky Eric Prince will be in the neighborhood too. I’m so sick if rich unscrupulous assholes getting away with murder.

[NickB79]

45. Israel, sending heavily armed special forces, into an Arab nation

To either capture or (more likely) kill men that are knowingly being given refuge in said country by it's government. And said government may call up it's own military forces to destroy the Israeli special forces and/or the air support needed to transport them.

That does sound like the best idea, if your idea is starting WW3 in the Middle East 🤦

I'd love to see the leadership of Hamas assassinated as much as anyone, but even I realize how inflammatory such actions could be.

[Think. Again.]

53. Yeah, cuz no one...

...ever heard of covert assassination.

[NickB79]

55. Covert or not, Arab nations would scream bloody murder

Once it came to light in the following hours that Israel sent armed forces into Qatar.

You're still playing with fire, even more than the current situation.

[Think. Again.]

58. Yeah, cuz no one ever heard of plausible deniability.

[NickB79]

60. Lol, right

The leader of Hamas dies, a couple months after the Oct 7 attack, and no one would EVER think to blame Israel. Totally plausible someone else just emptied a full magazine of bullets into his body. Could have been the gardener. Maybe a mugging gone bad. Who knows, really 🤣

Seriously, you do realize you're grasping at straws now, right?

[Think. Again.]

62. What I realized a while ago is that...

...way too many people secretly harbor a lust for brutality and this situation is one way they can express that vicariously through the caveman mentality being played out on the national stage.

[Ace Rothstein]

100. This is real life, not an action movie.

[Think. Again.]

104. Which is why I don't understand...

...why they are only using brute force methods and not any of the intelligence and high-tech that a well-funded modern defense force has access to.

It's like it's being played out for the most graphic, media-ready effect possible.

[lostnfound]

54. A just cause and just act. Thats worth a lot. Nt

[ecstatic]

11. That's what should have been done in the first place

Instead of killing innocent bystanders. If world leaders are going to continue to rely on war then it's time to shift to where the leaders are the ones at risk. Not the people.

[Bev54]

38. Yeah because they all play by the same rules right? Not.

[Deep State Witch]

13. Because They Don't Know Where They Are

1. Because they probably don't know where the hostages are located in the vast network of tunnels beneath Gaza. It's the same reason why the US hasn't sent in the Delta Force or Seals to rescue the Americans held hostage.
2. They're just pawns in Bibi's war.

[Autumn]

15. Of course, everyone is a pawn in Bibi's war. He doesn't want any end to this war. It doesn't matter if

the Hamas leaders know where they are or not. He should still go after them. Bibi is as transparent as the Orange Fuck Face.

[EllieBC]

21. There would be at least 30 threads

all full of sputtering outrage if Israel “dared” to go into another country and take out or kidnap Hamas leaders.

Let’s not pretend otherwise.

[Jedi Guy]

24. Because doing so would cause one hell of an international incident.

Did you think the Israelis haven't considered it already? They've almost certainly discussed it with the US. Sending Mossad/Shin Bet teams into a sovereign country to kidnap or kill the leaders of Hamas would provoke a wider regional conflict, guaranteed. The Qataris wouldn't stand for it, nor would the other Arab countries. The Arab League would go berserk.

When Mossad and Shin Bet kidnapped Adolf Eichmann from Argentina in 1960, there was a wave of antisemitism among the public afterward and the Argentinians raised a ruckus in the UN. Ultimately, though, nothing really came of it. That would absolutely not be the case if the Israelis tried it again with the leaders of Hamas.

[Autumn]

28. Yeah unlike what is going on now? Bibi is losing support daily.

[Jedi Guy]

30. Yes, very unlike what is going on now. Much, much worse for everyone than what's going on now.

The leaders of Hamas are in Qatar with the knowledge and consent of the Qataris. Do you honestly think that if Israel sent in Mossad and Shin Bet to kidnap or kill them, the Qataris would just shrug and laugh it off? Do you honestly think the other nations in the Arab League would roll their eyes, elbow each other, and chortle, "Ha, those wacky Israelis are at it again"?

Again, it would be an international incident and a huge pretext for the Arab League to declare war against Israel. It would touch off a regional conflict wherein actual nations are getting involved, not just paramilitary terrorist groups supported by Iran or whomever. Regional conflicts of that kind can very easily spiral out of control, particularly when a large chunk of the world's oil is coming from the region in question.

I guarantee you that the Israelis would love nothing more than to nab Ismail Haniyeh and the rest of his asshole friends, drag them back to Israel, put them on trial just like they did with Eichmann, and then hang them on live TV. Thankfully, though, they're smart enough to know that doing so, even if they were successful, would make things far worse.

[ecstatic]

39. That's why they should be talking behind the scenes

With officials in Qatar. It doesn't have to be done as a surprise extraction/execution. It can be done with plenty of warning ahead of time.

It's a much better look than killing another 8,000 women and children.

[Jedi Guy]

40. "That's why they should be talking behind the scenes with officials in Qatar."

They have been. The Qataris have helped negotiate the release of a handful of hostages. I'm sure there have also been conversations about the Hamas leaders residing in Qatar. That doesn't mean Qatar is going to give them up, and it most certainly doesn't mean Qatar will sit idly by and do nothing if the Israelis take it upon themselves to go in and get them. Far from it.

Even if Qatar did hand them over or turn a blind eye while the Israelis went after Haniyeh and his pals, what will that accomplish? Do you think Hamas will immediately surrender and release all the hostages just because Haniyeh got scooped up? Will the guys in the IAQ Brigades just lose the will to fight? On the contrary, they would see it as glorious martyrdom and fight even harder.

I get the impulse to believe that there's a silver bullet solution to this conflict, such as taking out Hamas's leadership by one method or another. The reality is that there isn't a silver bullet here.

[Bettie]

73. However, as long as they are involved in a war

he gets to stay in power. So, this is likely to go on a really long time, until he chooses to leave office on his own.

[Frasier Balzov]

37. Terrible for relations with Qatar.

The U.S. and Israel both value whatever positive involvement Qatar can offer.

[Sympthsical]

16. Because oppression ideology is reductive

They can only see the oppressed and the oppressor.

If you acknowledge that the oppressed can be oppressors, well, that's a very complicated and uncomfortable thought. It creates dissonance. It's easier just to pretend the issue isn't complex. Acknowledging complexity would wreck the slogans, and without slogans, what are they going to put on the signs? No no. It's far, far easier to have villains and victims. Victims cannot be villains. There. Solved. Whew.

Then you have the actual antisemites, those who tacitly support them, or those who remain quiet because they're trying to protect their ideology from the problems above or just never gave virtue signaling very much thought. "Anti-racist meant being against all racism? When did that start?!"

Jews and Israel cannot be victims in either the ideological or the racist scenarios I just laid out.

So, the hostages don't exist. Hamas doesn't exist. Antisemitism either doesn't exist or isn't a problem to these people. And Gazans are not and cannot be oppressed by anyone other than Israel, and they certainly cannot have any blame, circumstance, or crime laid at their feet.

Otherwise, one's head might start to hurt, and then questions will have to be asked. And questions lead to apostasy.

It's gross all around.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. +1

Ambiguous concepts are difficult to wrap one's mind around, let alone write about. Well done.

[Sympthsical]

27. I'm in the middle of a whole college sociology thing

Back in college to be a nurse practitioner, but I have time and interest, so I've been taking courses in all kinds of things.

This semester, it's a sociology extravaganza. Just this weekend, I finished up a rather long paper on Dependency and World-Systems Theory and global inequality.

It's very strange that I'm taking these courses now while Israel/Gaza is occurring, because it makes it very easy to perceive what's happening on college campuses now that I'm seeing in-person what gets taught. First, my classes are wall-to-wall Marxism. And I don't mean that pejoratively in the right-wing sense. I mean, entire classes are just Marxism and Conflict Theory. That's it. Everything - and I do mean everything - gets poured through that filter.

And it hasn't advanced at all. There's no real 21st Century evolution of the thinking. Just the application deck of cards gets shuffled around. It's still the same old shit at its core.

Oppression ideology is just the current fashionable iteration of it. The glossy new hotness to hide all the rust underneath.

What's it's teaching is to put everyone into very boxed-in shallow groups based on oppression category, dollop oppressor/oppressed narrative over it, and then set them to hating each other. It's highly divisive, incredibly reductive, toxic, and it appeals to very base tribal instincts.

It's not good, and my professor is completely batshit. I am praying Israel/Gaza doesn't come up before this semester ends. I've sat through a lot of his stuff and eked out papers that are consonant with his worldview - because that's the only thing that's getting you an A in his class. But the fact the man is teaching at all is a indictment of the California system.

He's not teaching. He's indoctrinating. It's like if a World Civ teacher busted out a Bible and said, "Let's start from here." You'd be like, "How the fuck did this guy get hired?!" Yeah. That's where I'm at with one of my sociology classes right now.

[LauraInLA]

78. Rec this, too, a thousand times ;)

[EllieBC]

23. K&R for you. This is worthy of its

own discussion post, to be honest.

[Jedi Guy]

25. Bingo.

Some of the asswipes tearing down posters of the hostages have, when asked why they're doing it, straight up said that there are no hostages and it's all Israeli propaganda.

The oppressor/victim narrative allows for no nuance, and any pesky facts which introduce nuance into the discussion must immediately be ignored.

[JI7]

90. Yes. On other places I get the same responses even I ask

questions such as releasing the hostages. Now they are also saying the hostages were treated well and they had a good time

You can't have a real discussion of these issues when people say things like this.

[Jedi Guy]

98. "Now they are also saying the hostages were treated well and they had a good time."

It blows my mind that anyone would say this. Even if they are treated well, so what? They watched terrorist thugs butcher their family, friends, and neighbors, and then were violently ripped from their homes. Some of them were paraded through the streets of Gaza so people could jeer and taunt them. The entire time they are in captivity, they live with the knowledge that at any moment, a man with a gun might walk in and kill them, either as a message to Israel or to prevent them from being rescued. And if it is a gun, that's fortunate, given what some of the victims on 10/7 endured.

And that anyone would assert that the hostages "had a good time" is even more absurd. What, did they play Uno? Gin rummy? Did some of the terrorists turn out to be really good at Mario Kart and everyone had a grand old time trying to dodge that damned blue shell? Did one of them have a lovely singing voice and serenade the hostages after dinner? Did they watch Titanic and have a good cry together?

The blatant but feeble attempts to minimize the trauma the hostages have endured and are enduring is beyond disgusting, and I have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who engages in such despicable mental gymnastics. I would say "Shame on them" but they've made it abundantly clear they have no shame.

[TwilightZone]

34. Excellent summation.

If I didn't know better, I'd have no idea that Hamas was even involved, based on a lot of posts here and opinions elsewhere. When they are acknowledged, it's often in the context of, "Yeah, but Israel...."

It's a much more complicated situation than many want to admit or even contemplate. Like many things in life and in politics, it's much easier to just boil everything down to bumper sticker slogans and ignore any other context.

[LauraInLA]

77. I wish I could rec this post a thousand times!!! EOM

[pinkstarburst]

26. I agree

I want to know why the protestors and anger is not turned towards Arab nations, why the anger is not on them to pressure Hamas to release the hostages. If they released all the hostages, Israel would instantly have a much weaker position on the world stage for continuing its operations in Gaza. There would be little to no justification for continuing the siege, continuing to bomb, and they would be all but forced to send in humanitarian aid while pulling back except for small ground teams clearing out the tunnels.

I am saddened that civilians are dying in this war between Hamas and Israel, but it is at Hamas's hands because they refuse to hand over the hostages they are holding and are leaving Israel no choice but to come into Gaza to try to retrieve them.

[claudette]

32. But

Killing thousands of innocent Palestinians may not be the best way to get the hostages released.

[JI7]

91. Why are there hostages at all ?

[claudette]

93. It was reported

that Hamas wants Israeli government to release the Palestinians held without because to be released as a swap. Why are they being held by Israel? Besides what difference does it make WHY there are hostages when the goal is to get them released safely and stop the slaughter in Gaza.

[JI7]

95. Israel released prisoner before and they ended up taking part in attacks on Israel

on Oct 7.

[claudette]

96. Yes

You believe Israel is perfectly right in everything they do. Bye.

[JI7]

97. You claimed Hamas didn't want to see dead Palestinians

even after they have admitted they wanted to many times.

[claudette]

103. Never

heard that Hamas wanted Palestinians dead. that’s absurd. Bye for real now.

[claudette]

31. Maybe

because Israel isn’t trusted to keep its word about a ceasefire when hostages are returned! Maybe?

[EllieBC]

33. But you can trust Hamas, right?

Who broke the ceasefire that was in place to begin with.

[claudette]

43. I didn't say that

The question is why doesn’t Hamas agree to a ceasefire and release hostages

[NickB79]

46. Uh, because their charter calls for the destruction of Israel?

And they're hoping to get the rest of the Arab world to enter the fight to accomplish this?

They aren't interested in peaceful coexistence. That's why they don't agree to a ceasefire.

It's not complicated, no matter how much you try to pretend it is.

[ripcord]

56. Why should they be expected to keep their word to terrorists?

Last edited Sun Nov 12, 2023, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Only the most vile people take hostages.

[ripcord]

41. Is it just me

Or does it seem like some believe that Hamas taking hostages was a legitimate tactic rather than a terrorist act?

[JI7]

44. The comment above you certainly does

[EllieBC]

52. Not just you at all.

I’d like to add it seems like some find it to be an acceptable tactic as well.

[Think. Again.]

57. Would you mind...

...backing up that accusation with some references?

The only time I've heard of that position is from hamas itself, is that the "some" you are speaking of?

I haven't seen any pro-hamas statements from non-hamas sources, plenty of pro-palestinian statements, which I agree with, but no pro-hamas statements.

Could you verify that non-hamas people are pushing that?

[Tom Rinaldo]

66. It is not a mainstream position, certainly not in the U.S.

and most certainly not at D.U. Relatively few Americans openly embrace terrorist tactics in general (though that number is growing.) But it is a logical fallacy to conclude that everyone who acknowledges that terrorism is wrong is impartial in their relative sympathies, and that they express/direct their outrage in an even handed manner etc at a time like this.

[Think. Again.]

67. I am curious to see if Ripcord has actually seen ...

...anything like what they claim or if it they were just making an assumption they hoped would be accepted as fact.

[Autumn]

61. It's just you. Not one member of DU believes that. nt

[lostnfound]

63. It's just you

I see and hear many arguments about what Israel should or shouldn’t be doing, but universal disgust for Hamas.
The main arguments are over the worth or value of Palestinians — whether to blame them based on an election 17 years ago, whether civilization is obligated to safeguard their lives and their children with equal weight as those of Israelis? And misunderstandings around that.

But what any of us thinks is immaterial. This will get decided by power-hungry psychos like just about every other war.
Ten-thousand dead is nowhere’s close to one night in Shitamachi, Tokyo.

[RussellCattle]

80. Bulldozing the homes of the families of suspected "terrorists" is a war crime, so why....

.....are we arguing about hostages taking? One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

[Ace Rothstein]

101. There are definitely some on Team Hamas.

[keithbvadu2]

75. Protest for peace. Cease fire is pro-Hamas so they can rebuild.

[TexasDem69]

79. The nonnegotiable conditions for any ceasefire

Should be that Hamas release every hostage seized on 10/7 or return their bodies. And second that Hamas turn over every individual who planned the massacre or participated in it. If you don’t support those two very obvious conditions then you support Hamas terrorists.

[enid602]

82. 4000 vs 'dozens'

Israelis changed world opinion when they bombed 4000 Palestinian children to death. There are supposedly another thousand or so under the rubble. Some are still clinging to life.

[TexasDem69]

83. So you support

A ceasefire if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders all murderers and leaders? That seems reasonable, right?

[enid602]

84. Right now

Ceasefire now.

[TexasDem69]

85. That's what Hamas supports

A ceasefire without any conditions. A ceasefire that lets Hamas rebuild its military capabilities. A ceasefire that lets Hamas keep the hostages it seized and doesn’t result in justice for Hamas’ thousands of child killers. Do you think that’s a good deal for Israel?

[enid602]

86. Fish in a barrel

Israel bombed the living shit out of those 1000’s of children. IDF was shooting fish in a barrel (where the fish were blindfolded and had their fins taped to their bodies) while hiding behind the heavily US subsidized Iron Dome. While our leadership was BEGGING them to let up. And you can see what the rest of the world thinks of Israel’s response to this crisis. No amount of cheerleading or repeating the same old tropes until you’re blue in the face will change the facts.

[TexasDem69]

88. You are really good at ignoring the question

I’m going to assume you support Hamas’ success since you won’t take the simple step of supporting a ceasefire conditioned on the return of civilian hostages and surrender of the thousands of Hamas murderers. That’s not controversial, that’s basic justice.