Israel found an intact hamas facility under a hospital.

[ExciteBike66]

Not a surprise, considering hamas has no apparent moral limitations.

However, this is evidence that a policy of bombing civilian buildings isn't necessary, if hamas will just abandon its underground facilities like this.

[Chainfire]

1. Moral limitations? Pots and kettles...

11,000 dead Palestinians, over half of all homes damaged or destroyed. Who the hell holds the moral highground here?

[CincyDem]

2. Easy solution to stop all this in a heartbeat.

Release the hostages.

Remember them? You know…the 200+ non-combatants. Men, women, children, elderly taken by Hamas during their terrorist attack.

All this stops when they are returned.

[Mossfern]

5. Why do people so conveniently

forget about the hostages?

[CincyDem]

6. Because it doesn't fit with the "Israel/Jews are evil" narrative. n/t.

[Calculating]

11. Sadly this

For some reason certain people like to side with the underdog in a conflict, regardless of whether that underdog deserves the sympathy.

[enid602]

66. funny thing

That’s the funny thing about so many people. When they see the underdogs under constant siege and bombardment, without any defenses, they sympathize with them. You don’t?

[Calculating]

74. Sometimes the loser is in that position for a reason

There was an existing ceasefire between Israel and Gaza. Hamas launched a horrific and unprovoked attack on Israel, and now they're taking a pounding for it because they misjudged the will of their allies like Hezbollah to assist them and open additional fronts. Sometimes the loser deserves to lose in wars, and the winner is in the right.

[enid602]

149. Cruel

Look at what’s happening in Gaza. That’s what the world sees.

[yardwork]

148. I also sympathize with the Israeli hostages and their families.

I'm curious about why so many people don't seem to care about the Israeli hostages. It's almost as if they have been dehumanized.

[enid602]

150. Dehumanization

Israel dehumanizes itself when it commits these atrocities. The images coming out of Gaza are stunning. The deprivations are inhuman. The justifications are tired and worn. When is enough enough?

[yardwork]

151. Sorry, but I strongly disagree.

A government's behavior doesn't "dehumanize" their country's civilians.

No way am I ever going down that path.

[Sugarcoated]

155. Ikr?

It's like they have blinders on..

[Chainfire]

33. That kind of statment may be loyal to the cause, but it lacks validity as a logical argument.

However, I will ask you, in the same vein, when you speak of 200 hostages, why do you not mention the 11.000 dead? See what I mean?

[CincyDem]

50. I am loyal to what you call "the cause".

When terrorists initiate a cross border attack…my cause is the “not terrorist” side.

When terrorists hold men, women, children, infants, elderly, disabled as hostages…my cause is the “not terrorist” side.

So until Hamas returns the hostages…yeah…I’m on the not terrorist side.

And yeah…I see exactly what you mean. Clear as day. Thanks for sharing it.

[DBoon]

64. however, the lives of palestinians who had nothing to do with hamas

mean nothing to you and are indefinitely disposable?

So 10,000 deaths are OK with you?

What about 100,000 deaths?

What about one million? You are willing to exterminate civilians endlessly out of revenge?

[CincyDem]

69. Indefinitely disposable...absolutely not but who controls that?

I think an issue with this whole discussion is that we’re looking at 10/7 as a singular event, often compared to 9/11.

But it wasn’t a one day event like 9/11. It’s a daily terrorist attack.

Every morning, Hamas leadership in Qatar, in the safety of their chandeliered penthouses, looks at the landscape of Gaza and says “Today? Should we release the hostages today?” And every morning they answer “no” is another terrorist attack.

So in answer to how many…I don’t know. It’s up to the guys in Qatar who recommit to their terrorism every day.

Separately, I’m not buying into the “who had nothing to do with Hamas” canard…but you do you on that one.

[questionseverything]

126. Then Israel should man up and get the leaders in

Qatar

[CincyDem]

127. Give 'em time. Remember Munich. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

138. I'd love to see that

Maybe it would wake up the Arab world that they better step up and demand Hamas release the hostages.

[JustAnotherGen]

137. This isn't what I read

I didn't see that in cincy's post.

You are willing to exterminate civilians endlessly out of revenge?

Also - it's not revenge to want innocent civilians taken hostage by terrorists back. One is a 3 year old Israeli American.

He's one of ours. His parents were killed in the pogrom. He needs to be back home with his extended family . . . If they haven't executed that American child yet.

[manicdem]

99. Are the 11000 casualties number accurate?

1. Are the numbers inflated?
2. How many of those are Hamas militants?
3. Did they remove the 500 dead from the stats from the supposed hospital bombing which turned out to be a errant rocket hitting a parking lot?

Even if those numbers are accurate, they are at the fault of Hamas, not the israelis.

[Chainfire]

115. Are all of the dead children at fault too? There will be thousands of them.

If you contest the 11,000 number that the media are using, what estimate would you give. Would you accept 10K or 9K. Is there a number that you would consider too many? How many homes do you think have been damaged or destroyed? 50% from third parties seems to be somewhere in the ballpark.

[manicdem]

153. Estimates

For one thing, I'd subtract 500 from the "hospital bombing" from that number at the very least. And subtract the number of Hamas militants, maybe 1,000 as a wild guess. And subtract the number of Palestinians killed by Hamas, maybe another 1,000 as a wild guess.

Then they exaggerate their numbers. For example they claimed 500 killed in the "hospital bombing" when it'd be a maximum of 50 (likely less) in that parking lot, so a factor of 10 to 1. 11,000 - 450 (hospital) -1,000 militants - 1,000 Palestinians = 8,500 / 10 = 850 Palestinians killed. But even then, those 850 died because Hamas used them as shields and put them in danger.

War is ugly for either side. But it's a last resort and I don't see any other solution.

Hamas can surrender at anytime and the war will be over.

[inthewind21]

156. So

do tell. Where did you get the number of dead Hamas militants? Because it hasn't been reported ANYWHERE.

[manicdem]

159. I said it in the same sentance

Did you not read everything?

"And subtract the number of Hamas militants, maybe 1,000 as a wild guess."

What would your guess be in the militants?

How about my other points such as the hospital bombing?

What is the evidence behind the 11000 number? Just take their word for it?

You seem very selective on your points.

[inthewind21]

160. No

Selective is making "wild guesses".

[RubyRose]

157. And every one of those

11,000 would be alive today if Hamas hadn’t attacked Israeli civilians on October 7.

[Chainfire]

158. So one massacre deserves a reply in kind, only multiplied by ten? (and growing) Is that what justice looks like to you?

[Chainfire]

8. Hamas says that they will release the hostages when the killing stops and Israel has rejected the offer.

So there you go...

[Mossfern]

10. Doesn't work that way

Do you trust Hamas considering they attacked during a cease fire?

[BlueCheeseAgain]

44. You and I had a discussion in another thread.

When you said "The IDF says..." as a way of immediately dismissing a claim. You argued then that you disbelieve everything either side says unless there's evidence presented.

But apparently you do in fact believe what one side says. Here you say "Hamas says ..." and you believe the subsequent claim. And not only is there no evidence for it-- there can't be more evidence for it, because it's a promise for future action. You believe in fact that if Israel would give Hamas what it wants up front (a ceasefire), then Hamas will honorably hold up its end of the bargain.

So you do believe one side over the other. Which is fine. But it's good to have that cleared up.

[Chainfire]

49. I suggest that you read what I said, not what you wish that I had said.

My claim was inferring that neither side can be trusted, so don't try to twist it into something it isn't. I guess you would like to bait me into defending Hamas. That is not going to happen, I believe that they are a terrorist organization and I despise them for their murderous raid in October. There was no excuse for that. But I also believe that there is blame on both sides, and I do not like the way that Israel is conducting this war as I believe that it has moved from a defensive action to a war of aggression. So, perhaps not "supporting" either side, not having a flag to wave, perhaps I see some things differently than others.

In any case, I believe that a sufficient number of innocent people have died and it needs to stop now.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

54. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

But let's be clear. When you said this:

Hamas says that they will release the hostages when the killing stops and Israel has rejected the offer.

Are/were you saying that Hamas should not be believed when they say they will release the hostages when the killing stops?

I do think a reasonable person would interpret that as saying that Hamas made a good offer, and that Israel unwisely rejected it because they want to keep killing people. Especially since I also remember a comment you made earlier about Hamas wanting the dying to stop. But if I'm wrong, then of course I'm sorry.

[CincyDem]

51. All I can say to that is...

I have to stop for a second, my sides hurt.

[GuppyGal]

52. You mean the killing that THEY started when they broke the CEASE FIRE on Oct 7th........you mean

that killing???

[Chainfire]

55. Yes, what they did was an atrocity, it was evil and unforgiveable. But it does not excuse payment in kind with

ten times the deaths on the other side. Two wrongs do not make a right. The war needs to stop.

[pinkstarburst]

76. And it can stop. Hamas simply needs to release the hostages

that it took. The moment they do this, there would be immense pressure on Israel to withdraw completely. There would be no justification for them remaining in Gaza after that point. Right now there is every justification for them being in Gaza while Hamas is holding hundreds of women, children and grandmothers hostage.

This is so simple. Hamas needs to release ALL the hostages. The fact that they will not do this, the fact that when Israel tries to provide fuel and incubators to the hospitals, they will not allow the doctors to accept it, shows you what sort of animals you are dealing with.

[GaYellowDawg]

59. And you're going to take their word for it?

Only a fool would take any promise from Hamas seriously. You know what would happen if the killing stopped? Hamas would demand something else for the hostages. Maybe release 5 or 6 of them. There isn't even any guarantee that Hamas hasn't already killed them. All that Hamas cares about is that Israelis die, and they will do anything towards that end. Lying is nothing for them. No one should ever enter into any agreement with Hamas again, nor take their word for anything. The only thing to do with Hamas is to kill them to the last person.

[Chainfire]

62. So I guess your solution is to destroy Hamas if it means killing every living Palestinian in the process.

Destroy all of the homes and infrastructure and salt the fields? A little old testament justice?

The war needs to stop.

[yagotme]

67. I agree with you:

The war needs to stop.

So, let's tell Hamas to give up the hostages, put down their arms, allow aid to come in without interference, stop firing rockets at Israel, and to honor cease fire and peace accords. See? Easily done.

[Lonestarblue]

113. Not necessarily. Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas.

If Hamas releases the hostages, as soon as they are free the IDF will likely just continue their bombing until they destroy all buildings in Gaza and kill hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. Netanyahu plans to occupy Gaza, which means that Palestinians will not be allowed to live there.

[yagotme]

122. Releasing hostages is just a parcel of what Hamas should do.

If Hamas does ALL of the things I listed, I bet it would go a long way towards peace.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

80. What were you saying in this thread about ...

... reading what was written, and not what you wish was written.

The person to whom you're replying said nothing of the sort. You're purposely making a caricature of their position in order to ridicule it. It's a disingenuous way of arguing.

[GuppyGal]

128. Except they're not killing every Palestinian in the process ...not even close

[pinkstarburst]

75. Are you for real?

How about Hamas release all the hostages they took on the day they brutally slaughtered 1,200 Israelis? If they did this, Israel would have no justification to remain in Gaza at all. Right now they have every justification to be in there trying to get the hostages back.

[mcar]

37. And Hamas could surrender

But no, this is all Israel's fault because...

[Omnipresent]

106. The hostages are probably dead.

Israel bombing the shit out of Gaza isn’t helping Hamas keep those hostages safe.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

107. So it's Israel's fault if Hamas kills the hostages

Wow. You seem like a nice person blaming the victim.

[Omnipresent]

144. Did i blame the victims, though?

Leveling city blocks of buildings can’t leave anyone with much hope, that those hostages are alive and well.

[Mountainguy]

129. Not sure thats enough.

Releasing the hostages they haven't murdered yet, probably not many tbh, is a condition but not the entirety of its Hamas also need to throw down arms and surrender.

I dont think there is any intention in Israel to return to status quo ante bellum.

[Beastly Boy]

3. My guess is that moral high ground is not held by Hamas.

[Chainfire]

7. Do you think that Israel is?

[CincyDem]

12. Moral high ground is simply a comparative phrase between two choices.

Your question seems to imply you believe Hamas has the moral high ground.

Given the choice between Hamas and Israel, I choose Israel. How ‘bout you?

[Chainfire]

16. That is not what I said, and that is not what I meant.

I choose justice.

[CincyDem]

22. And who adjudicates?

[Chainfire]

24. History will adjudicate. My personal judgement is that there is sin on both sides.

[Beastly Boy]

42. This is a statement that speculates on futurre moral judgements

Has nothing to do with justice as a legal concept.

[GuppyGal]

53. What a revolting false equivalence.

[BannonsLiver]

87. You should see their revisionist views on World War II

The cliff notes version is that there was basically no moral difference between the axis powers of Germany, Japan and Italy and the Allies. Each side was equally terrible.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

105. Hitler warned allies of hospital attacks! The Allies committed war crimes!

Yeah, the pretzel logic to avoid saying "Hamas should release the hostages" is astounding.

[Chainfire]

112. I don't know of anyone who believes that.

However anyone who does not believe that the allies did not commit atrocities have gotten their history from comic books.

[BannonsLiver]

116. I do.

[Chainfire]

117. Well, now I know someone who believes it.

I have been reading WWII history and biographies, from all sides of the conflict, for over 50 years and it just goes to prove, you can learn something new every day.

[yagotme]

27. OK. You have chosen justice.

Now, please give your definition of justice in this case.

[Chainfire]

45. There was no justice in the Hamas attack, there is no justice in the deaths of thousands of Palestinian children.

The closest thing to justice, at this time would be the halting of the war and the search for peace through the diplomatic process. Over half of the homes in Gaza have been destroyed, and over ten thousand dead, isn't that enough? If not, when will it be enough?

[yagotme]

47. As it has been said, probably a hundred times or more here,

give up the hostages, stop firing rockets, and agree to meet for peace talks, and abide by any ceasefires. NONE of which Hamas seems to want to do. So, now who is at fault???

[inthewind21]

96. You can't

give a definition of justice in this case because there IS NO JUSTICE and never will be. Once people are dead, they are dead and NOTHING can or will EVER make that right no matter how many surprise raids carried out or retaliation bombs dropped. Because no matter what you do, they will STILL be dead. Kill all the kids in the school, people in the hospitals, people trying to just get the hell out of the way and guess what, the people killed on 10/07 will STILL be dead and the leaders of Hamas will still be sitting in Qatar watching it all unfold on CNN. Only now the murdered on 10/07 will have lots of company and a whole new group of people will now also need "justice". What you and many others are really looking for is revenge. And it's clear you don't care how said revenge is obtained.

Now let's look at the Palestinians side. They have dead people too. A LOT of them. And there IS and WILL BE NO JUSTICE for them either. So they will now also require revenge. Only on a much larger scale because after all, they have 10 times more dead which will require 10 times more revenge disguised as justice. Dead people are dead people no matter who they are or where they are from or what they look like. The only sure thing they ALL have in common is, they are ALL someone's mother, father, sister, brother, child or other extended family. I'm going out on a limb and bet ANYONE would be just as distraught over their dead kid or other family member just as much as the Israeli's or American's or ANY nationality on this earth. So the cycle continues. And the killing and destruction will continue all while many make themselves feel better and able to sleep at night by claiming it's all in the name of justice. Clearly NOTHING was learned after the colossal cluster fuck that was the utterly failed 20 year "war on terrorism" after 9/11. Huh, there are still terrorists doing terrorist shit. How could that be? THE US spent 20 year "wiping them out" "eliminating them" and getting justice right?

What I can say for certain is this, Hamas and other terrorist organizations are racking up the new recruits by the truckload with every day that goes by. All compliments of the citizens who convince themselves that indiscriminate killing is justice for indiscriminate killing. And the world keeps turning. For now.

[yagotme]

97. The poster stated they chose justice.

I acknowledged that. I then asked poster what his opinion was on what justice looked like.

[inthewind21]

100. I'm

aware. However, there is no justice. So you agree it's not justice being sought it's revenge.

[yagotme]

102. Perhaps you should tell this to the other poster:

However, there is no justice.

It's justice, it's revenge, it's to make sure Hamas doesn't do this again (Never Again). Different viewpoints, different feelings, different effects. I'm sure the family of the grandmother that was murdered on camera feels a need for revenge. It's human nature. Justice? The government of Hamas planned and executed this attack on the 7th. So, what would justice look like meted out against Hamas, who hides behind their civilian population, to garner world support against Israel?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

31. Justice, but the hostages don't need to be released

You've made your position supporting Hamas' keeping hostages VERY clear.

[BannonsLiver]

93. You choose child like logic for complex problems most of the time

[inthewind21]

86. now you're

just trolling.

[Beastly Boy]

13. That remains to be seen.

All things considered, the war is not over and so far any moral judgement is premature. Israel is certainly justified in conducting military actions against Hamas. How this affects questions of morality is debatable.

[Chainfire]

17. War is immoral. The only issue to be decided is whether there are war crimes being committed by either or both sides.

[Beastly Boy]

25. That's exactly what I was driving at. The issue of moral grounds is up to interpretation.

The question of immorality of war is pretty much settled. The only question in dispute is the legality of military actions. So far, I can only see Hamas acting illegally, and Israel, while pushing the envelope, not exceeding the limits of the law.

[EX500rider]

56. So the Civil War or the fight against Nazi Germany was immoral?

[Chainfire]

60. There is no such thing as a moral war.

It is a contridiction of terms. War turns all of the "values" that we like to hold as moral principals, that set us apart from the beasts, on their heads. Killing becomes heroic, destruction is applauded. Love thy neighbor becomes kill as many of the bastards as possible.

If attacked, one has to defend, but sometimes wars of defense become wars of agression. Sometimes we stop making wars on armies and start making war on civilians and that is when the morality really goes to hell in a hurry. No nation at war is free of guilt. Even in the "Good War" that you are asking about, we (the US) did horrible, uncivilized and unnecessary violent acts and did them to mostly women and children who were at home trying to survive. We got really creative with "fire storms" and intentionally burned city centers, with no military target value; the goal was the killing as many civilians as possible. It was terrorism on an industrial scale. Even as a military veteran, it is nothing that I am proud of.

This present war doesn't need moral justification, it just needs to stop.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

108. I've read that the Nazis were kind enough to warn hospitals so apparently they're better than Israel now

Of course, there seems to be a pro-Palestinian contingent that trumpets all the Allied war crimes while conveniently ignoring the Holocaust.

But it's not Anti-Semitism!

[Happy Hoosier]

110. In an imperfect world and in this case? YES! NT

[Chautauquas]

77. It's not held by Israel eitther

Hamas committed atrocities and now Israel is killing children. Claiming one side is good and one is bad is absurd.

[yagotme]

79. So, Israel is finding children,

purposefully torturing, maiming, and killing them, just like Hamas? C'mon, man...

[Chautauquas]

124. Did I say that?

No, I did not.

[yagotme]

125. Kinda close. Some of the atrocities Hamas committed were killing children as I described.

Hamas committed atrocities and now Israel is killing children.

So, I interpreted it as "Hamas did it, now Israel is doing it." Israel is NOT specifically targeting children. Your post IS implying that.

[Beastly Boy]

83. Since we are now into the ridiculous terrotory of comparing deaths to deaths,

who has the higher moral ground, someone who targets civilians and hits IDF, or someone who targets Hamas and hits civilians deliberately placed in harm's way by Hamas?

[Chautauquas]

123. I'm saying neither of them can legitimately claim the higher ground

They are both guilty of willfully and intentionally slaughtering innocent people. Nothing justifies what Hamas did and nothing justifies what Israel is now doing.

[Beastly Boy]

135. That's where you are wrong.

And it's not I who disagrees with you, it's international law.

When you target someone and hit someone else, it is by definition not intentional. So there is only one party that intentionally endangers the lives of civilians, and that's not Israel.

Intent is what makes a war crime a war crime.

[Chautauquas]

146. Israel doesn't intentionally endanger the lives of civilians?

That's quite a statement, considering Israel is killing women and children by the thousands. You are ok with that. I am not.

[Beastly Boy]

147. That's rigth. Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians.

They intentionally target Hamas military objects, and Hamas deliberately surrounds their military objects with civilians

This is well known, and Hamas makes no secret of it. I fail to see why you would be surprised by this.

And international law says that using human shields is a war crime, and in this situation Hamas is responsible for killing women and children by the thousands, not Israel.

If you are not ok with international law, that's on you to justify it to yourself. I don't want to play any part in it.

[GuppyGal]

132. The VERY LEAST you could say is one side is bad and the other is worse but in your eyes they are both the

same.

[calguy]

30. You're looking at the effect

and ignoring the cause.

[Happy Hoosier]

109. The people NOT putting military facilities under a hospital... NT

[AloeVera]

4. Do you have a link?

[Autumn]

9. I would like to see a link also. With a video or pictures.

[RainWalker]

14. Here you go

This is from the CBC Canada.

[Autumn]

20. Thanks for the video. Very interesting.

[RainWalker]

21. You're welcome

[AloeVera]

35. Thank you.

[Donkees]

15. ''the tunnel they claim to be a Hamas tunnel is actually an electrical wire assembly point''

Speaking by phone to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all of Gaza’s hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used as a shelter for women and children – not to store Hamas weaponry and hold hostages – as well as being the location of the pharmacy and some of the hospital’s administrative offices before rainwater made it “impossible” to use.

Zarquot said “the tunnel they claim to be a Hamas tunnel is actually an electrical wire assembly point. We raised the wires to prevent any electrical shocks caused by floods.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/middleeast/israel-alleges-hamas-armory-under-hospital-in-gaza-hnk-intl/index.html

[Autumn]

18. That explains it. I thought it was an elevator shaft. Thanks for that.

[RainWalker]

23. The interview with the ABC reporter is awkward

I think they knew immediately what was up because the amount of awkwardness is very palpable.

[Autumn]

26. I guess because we here in America are fed daily doses of bullshit and propaganda it has become

so easy to tell when it's been shoveled out there. Or the ones shoveling the bullshit just aren't trying hard enough.

[RainWalker]

28. Absolutely so

And many recognize misinformation and propaganda when they see it especially after what we've gone through with Trump and Republicans.

[Donkees]

36. There are various utility maintenance tunnels in the US ...

At the airports, tunnels, building complexes, etc.

[obamanut2012]

32. The chair against the wall thing in that video was, as the kids say, cringey AF

[Autumn]

39. Yeah, that and the weapons display.

[obamanut2012]

82. Yup, some rusty guns laying around

Like in my uncle's basement.

[RainWalker]

40. Ya that was lol

[Prairie Gates]

38. When the IDF guy started yelling "Would we have gone through all this to bring you here?"

Ooooof. That was...poor?

Even David Muir seemed a little embarrassed at having to air that.

[Nanjeanne]

34. And the Hamas guard names which translate to the days of the week, the deadly motorcycle

The baby bottle and diapers in a children’s hospital. The toilet! A curtain!

Looks like a break room in a hospital.

But look— grenades! What self respecting Hamas terrorist would leave those behind? Probably Sunday. But it could have been Tuesday.

No video of actual tunnels. No video of showing how the tunnel is actually connected to the hospital.

Where’s the brand new copy of Mein Kampf like they found in the children’s room? Couldn’t they get another copy to discover?

[RainWalker]

41. That calendar was hilarious

I actually laughed at that.

Link to tweet

[intrepidity]

103. Yeah, but

The ministry, however, failed to address one key detail: The calendar begins on Oct. 7, the day of the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, and an Arabic title written at the top uses the militants’ name for the assault: “Al Aqsa Flood Battle, 7/10/2023.”

[AloeVera]

43. I would laugh but I'd feel ashamed.

Instead I just agree with you and wonder at the cringey ineptitude and brazen deception.

Btw I saw the whole video on IDF's X account. It's worse. The comments though are worth the trip.

[Nanjeanne]

46. Here's the video

[link:

Link to tweet

?s=61&t=_R0eaN5XDTx3hnl2jyXBTA|]

[BlueCheeseAgain]

81. Please clarify.

Are you saying the IDF planted the grenades and weapons?

[Nanjeanne]

88. Don't know. I do know the list of Hamas guards he found

is actually a calendar and the names are actually the days of the week like you find in many hospitals. I do know the hole he showed is an elevator shaft. I do know he showed a toilet and a chair and some diapers. I do know he never showed any tunnel entrance in a hospital. I do know he showed ventilation and a curtain.

The nicely lined up grenades? No idea. But Hamas must have left in a real hurry to have left those behind. And whoever did is very anal to have made sure they left them in such order as they hurried out without them.

That’s all I know.

[yagotme]

91. Grenades/arms in a row can easily be explained.

You stack your gear neatly, so you can find stuff in a hurry. This may have been a supply dump, and the IDF cut off access before Hamas needed to get to it. Just one explanation...

[BlueCheeseAgain]

92. I mean, it's not uncommon to leave things behind when retreating or fleeing.

Otherwise, by your logic, all evidence must be fake, because if it was real, why would someone leave it behind?

It sure sounded like you were accusing the IDF of making things up.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

95. The calendar thing and days of the week is a bit embarrassing, for sure

But nobody seems to dispute that the top line mentions the Al-Aqsa Flood and starts on October 7, strongly suggesting that Hamas was indeed there.

(It is weird that the calendar has rows of five instead of seven. You wouldn't have to write the days of the week if there were columns.)

[obamanut2012]

119. That is not why Al-Aqsa Flood and October 7 are there -- it is obvious why there are there

And it is benign and has nothing to do with Hamas.

And no, I won't. I am done with being attacked.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

120. I'm confused by your message.

What won't you do? Explain the obvious benign reason someone started a calendar on October 7 using the name that Hamas used for its operation?

[intrepidity]

104. And highly coincidental that the calendar begins 10/7?

I mean, it *has* to start on *some* day, but really, 10/7, and that doesn't raise your eyebrows a bit?

[obamanut2012]

118. No, not to those of us with good critical thinking skills

It is 100% obvious why it does.

And, no, I won't.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

121. You said in your response that you were done being attacked.

And then immediately imply that people who don't agree with you lack good critical thinking skills. It's a mixed message for sure.

[GuppyGal]

130. Actually you do know....you said it "Looks like a break room in a hospital."

[Nanjeanne]

136. In the full video showing couches, a toilet and curtains it did. A room in the basement where people would

meet prior to the war where people would go to shelter from bombing.

[Geezoh]

29. Hamas facilities beneath hospitals, next to schools, mosques, and apartment complexes

I'm new here today, so I may be addressing stuff that has already been discussed.

Hamas does not set up their rocked/mortar installations or their command stations near hospitals, schools, or large residential buildings to discourage Israeli air strikes. These locations are chosen because Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians...as many dead as possible. The more dead Palestinians the worse the media reaction, the liberal Jewish reaction, the reaction on US university campuses, etc., etc. Hamas has murdered plenty of Palestinians in Gaza since they came to full control after killing off all Fatah and members of other competing terrorist organizations in the Fatah/Hamas war January 2006- late 2007 when Hamas became the government of Gaza. The Hamas/Fatah confilct continues to date, witness the occasional corpse of a Hamas opponent or critic being dragged through the streets of Gaza City behind a phalanx of ratty motorbikes.

Later...what Hamas has accomplished for Palestinians in Gaza since the removal of Israeli settlements in 2007.

[calguy]

48. Palestinians could have made Gaza into world class place

They chose to do otherwise, and the consequence for those poor decisions is living the way they are and have been living. They have had billions given to them without a single request of them. But they allowed thugs to take it from them, and instead of fighting those that do destroy their lives and any ability to have peace in their land, they fight the only people who say, let us help you, we only ask in return that you don't harm us or our families.

So while Hamas is barbaric and humanly unnatural, the Palestinians must change or suffer as they have for so many decades. It isn't the world's choice, not Israel's choice, not even Iran or Hamas's choice. It is now and ever shall be the Palestinians choice that makes the difference. They have far too long been living in the state they have allowed themselves to live in, and only they can change that.

[Nanjeanne]

57. Really? With limited access to employment and education. No ability to leave Gaza unless Israel gives them

access to work outside Gaza. Approximately 4 hours of electricity a day - limited trucks bringing in food, supplies - all regulated by the Israeli air, land, sea blockade.

[Mosby]

61. Yeah, it's an open air prison.

Link to tweet

[Nanjeanne]

72. OMG. Quick - let's get there for our next vacation.

[obamanut2012]

89. And Manazanar had movies and beauty parlors and Little League teams, but it was still a prison

By your logic, the WW2 prison camps we put loyal Americans, including kids, in were A-OK, because they weren't in cells or tents eating nothing but rusks and water.

Come on. Stop it.

[yagotme]

63. Well, maybe with all the money Hamas leaders STOLE from the Palestinians

coming in to Gaza (aid, etc.), they could have created jobs, their own infrastructure, power generation, etc. Had they not kept attacking and waging war against Israel, they would have had more access to Israel. The walls and fences were built because militants from Gaza kept attacking Israel, so some kind of security had to be emplaced.

[Nanjeanne]

71. Yeah maybe.

[calguy]

140. They have had billions given to them without a single request of them.

But they allowed thugs to take it from them, and instead of fighting those that do destroy their lives and any ability to have peace in their land, they fight the only people who say, let us help you, we only ask in return that you don't harm us or our families.

[Geezoh]

70. Where the money comes from, where the money goes.

Absolutely With all the money that has been flowing in to Hamas from Iran, Qatar, and although it's difficult to find it, from the Russians since Hamas took control of the country in 2007, Gaza could have been well on it's way to becoming the Singapore of the Mediterranean. But the money has not gone to the people of Gaza, or the infrastructure of Gaza, or housing in Gaza, it has gone into the purchase of weapons and the construction underground tunnels and facilities to in which to store the weaponry and also store food supplies for 40,000+ Hamas fighters, while Palestinian children go undernourished. And the money goes into the pockets of Hamas leadership.

[inthewind21]

98. Oh the irony

taking full responsibility for the consequences of Trump and the MAGA loons. That IS what you are doing yes? Or do you only hold others responsible for their government?

[Celerity]

141. very faulty claim

Palestinians could have made Gaza into world class place

really?

[GuppyGal]

131. The world is getting played by Hamas of EPIC proportions

[Just_Vote_Dem]

143. And it's also revealing a ton of latent anti-semitism

Which demonstrates why Israel cannot let up on fighting back against its enemies.

[redqueen]

58. Did they?

[FlyingPiggy]

65. I hear people say there is a difference between hamsas and the Palestinian people but....

When I read of stories like this, it makes me question that. It seems the Palestinian people not only condone hamas, but they cover for them too. And then when hamas strikes, the Palestinian people cry. It’s not a good look to me.

[yagotme]

68. The difference is, Hamas has the guns, the civilians don't. nt

[Sympthsical]

73. Hamas is oppressing Palestinians

Which is an important distinction to make and highlight. I know people like to cite polls or elections from eighteen years ago. However, at the end of the day, Hamas has put down Palestinian objections to their rule, brutally and without mercy.

Which is something that endlessly annoys me that people do not keep in mind. "Some civilians say Hamas isn't there! So this is just IDF propaganda!" Well, when Hamas is holding a gun to their head or the heads of their family, what the fuck do you think they're going to say?

And then it's shown Hamas was, in fact, in those places, and it's total radio silence. Doesn't matter. They've already moved on to their next anti-Israel ball of yarn.

And it betrays something, when the people who keep telling us they care very, very deeply about Palestinians just don't have anything to say about Hamas. And when it's managed on those uncommon occasions, it's grudging, muttered, and quickly done so it can be just as quickly forgotten.

They think no one notices this.

As for the people who just repeat Hamas statements uncritically. What can be said? They're making their sympathies known.

"I shall repeat Hamas' propaganda where I can."
"Do you think your sympathies, maybe, look like they rest with Hamas?"
"How dare you!"

Like, seriously.

[Geezoh]

84. Body count.

I can't remember who was involved in this discussion about the complete imbalance in the number of civilian dead in this war. 1400 Jews, let's say 10,000 Palestinians, who knows because the numbers come from Hamas, but OK 10,000 Palestinians. And the question was asked...

In WWII when the British carried out the bombing of Dresden and other German cities, many German civilians were killed. Way way more German civilians ended up dead than British civilians in the blitz. So...does that make the British in WWII perpetrators of genocide on the German people? Does that historical fact make the British people evil?

The official numbers from WWII have the United Kingdom civilian deaths due to Axis military action at 67,200.
The official numbers from WWII have the German civilian deaths due to Allied military action between 1.5 million and 3 million.

Reckon if anybody was demanding a cease fire on the part of the Allies in 1944?

Hamas are the nazis of the holy land. They came to power by the support of the German people. Hamas came to power by the support of Gazans.

[CincyDem]

90. Welcome to the conversation...

When I see a poster with so few posts jump into this topic, I take a look to see how many days they've been a member.

You, on the other hand are an OG (original gangster!)...since 2007 ! That's tenacity, in a good way. Reminds me of the great Marcel Marceau's appearance in Mel Brooks' Silent Movie...speaking the only line of the movie.

Anyway - welcome to the brawl.

[Geezoh]

161. Thanks...

Back in '07 I already had quite a bit of time on current event forums, and I noticed regular references to DU just about everywhere. So I dropped in and registered. But I got overwhelmed with the size of the place pretty fast. So many posts, there's no way to read all of it, and I've always been a bit paranoid about posting content that's already been fully covered somewhere...and my paranoia got the best of me. But my comments in support of the State of Israel in what I thought was a safe lib homebase recently, were not well received, and it was made clear that an adjustment in my thinking and behavior was required if I wanted to remain a member...I've never been too good at such adjustments.

So...here I am to give it a serious try this time. Perhaps pushing 80 has made me a curmudgeon in some ways, but made me more open to other things.

I would have PM'd all this but I don't have enough posts yet.

[obamanut2012]

94. I cannot believe you wrote this and think it's okay

"I hear people say there is a difference between hamsas and the Palestinian people but....
Reply to ExciteBike66 (Original post)
Tue Nov 14, 2023, 08:04 AM

When I read of stories like this, it makes me question that. It seems the Palestinian people not only condone hamas, but they cover for them too. And then when hamas strikes, the Palestinian people cry. It’s not a good look to me."

[AZSkiffyGeek]

111. I see it along the lines of Hillary's "Basket of Deplorables"

People go to great pains to explain that Hamas is not all Palestinians. Then someone says "Hamas did XXXX" and the pro-Palestinian crowd chimes in, "How dare you blame the Palestinians, they're innocent victims!"

[Chainfire]

114. People have to live with the government that they have. If you are saying that all Palestinians are terrorists you

would be mistaken. However, if it salves your conscience for all of the dead children, so be it.

The war needs to end now.

[GuppyGal]

134. The hostages need to be returned NOW

[GuppyGal]

133. Hamas absolutely enjoys plenty of support from everything that I have read and that goes across all

walks of Gazan life.

[Geezoh]

162. Even Worse

An even worse look is when Hamas parades the naked corpse of young Israeli-German national, Shani Louk around the streets of Gaza City in the back of a pickup truck, the innocent residents therein come out in droves to cheer and spit on Shani Louk, and even occasionally try to further mutilate the remains. Not a good look at all. My impression is that most Israelis want Hamas dead, but do not like dead civilians on either side of the conflict and would certainly not be spitting on the corpses of dead Palestinians being dragged around the streets of Tel Aviv or Haifa.

PS - Objective reporting from Al Jazeera is that there was no command and control center under the al-Shifa Hospital.

[JohnSJ]

78. Do you have a link?

[LexVegas]

85. I think you will need a verification from Hamas for this to be credible to some. nt

[yardwork]

152. Sadly true.

[Maru Kitteh]

101. KnR

[Bev54]

139. "IF" Hamas will jus abandon its underground facilities. That is a really big IF.

[Captain Stern]

145. That is true.

The Israeli government's job is to protect civilians.............Israeli civilians. And, that is what they are doing.

Gaza's government's (Hamas) job is to protect their civilians. And they're not. And they've pretty much said they don't care to.

Hamas has intentionally killed Israeli civilians, and has openly said they intend to kill a lot more. Their goal is actually to kill all Israeli's. So, Israel is doing what they have to do.

It would be nice if there were a way for Israel to eliminate Hamas without killing any Palestinian civilians, but there's not. It's a tragic situation, but if the ONLY way for Israel to save the life of one of their civilians is to kill thousands of Palestinian civilians, then that is what Israel should do.

[Mountainguy]

154. This is exactly right

Hamas has embedded themselves into the population to use them as shields.

After Oct. 7th a few things because clear.
1: Hamas will brutally attack Israel if given a chance.
2: Israel can't let Hamas remain as a functioning entity within their borders.
3: Israel can't continue to let Gaza operate outside of their authority.

Israel is going to wage war on Hamas until they are no longer a functional group and they are going to place boots on the ground inside of the territory to police it after the war is over.

All of this together means that Palestinian civilian's are going to be in the line of fire as Israel targets Hamas. The only was Israel can prevent civilian deaths is to not target Hamas, which means more Israelis will die.

Pretty terrible situation, but it is the situation. Israel doesn't have any real choice but to continue targeting Hamas where they are. Hamas, on the other hand, could choose to save Palestinians by surrendering.

Hamas has the power to end the conflict today. Why is nobody protesting them to do so?