Is it a war crime to use civilians as human shields?

[yardwork]

Is it a war crime to take over a hospital and embed combatants in the facility, thus drawing enemy fire?

[sarisataka]

1. Yes nt

[lapucelle]

2. Yes.

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

[yardwork]

3. Corollary: would it be a war crime if Israel did it?

Asking for a friend.

[Big Blue Marble]

6. In the past, Israel has used human shields.

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

[yardwork]

7. Do you think it's a war crime to use civilians as human shields?

[Big Blue Marble]

8. Yes, of course.

IMO, Hamas is not using Gazans as human shields, but they are just fine with them being
martyred for their "cause." Both Israel and Hamas dehumanize the people and the children
of Gaza. Who will protect these abandoned people?

[yardwork]

9. Good question.

Hamas does seem to be causing Palestinian people to be martyred. I agree.

Netanyahu's administration, meanwhile, seems to view this war as a fight for Jewish survival. Hamas's behavior and rhetoric suggest that this may be true.

Civilians on both sides are victims.

[Big Blue Marble]

43. Of course, it is not a fight for Israel's survival.

We are talking about a nuclear power that recognized as the fourth most powerful military
in the world against 40,000 or 50,000 militants with no air power, tanks, or artillery.

While no country wants to be viciously attacked as Israel was when their guard was down,
and has the right to go after the killers , but this level of destruction and death is about
much more than capturing or killing perpetrators. It is about anger, revenge, and for
those on the far right, the opportunity for ethnic cleansing.

[yardwork]

47. Those are a lot of assumptions.

I don't agree with most of your assumptions.

[Big Blue Marble]

55. Name the assumptions. N/T

[Jedi Guy]

51. It's worth considering that it's not JUST Hamas in this equation.

Yes, Hamas was, as far as we know right now, the only group that participated in the 10/7 attacks. Even so, Israel is surrounded by enemies on almost all sides, and even the "friendly" nations aren't particularly friendly. Lebanon (and Hezbollah, arguably the greatest nearby threat) to the north, Syria to the northeast, Jordan to the east, Saudi Arabia to the southeast, and Egypt to the south and west. And Iran, Israel's archenemy, is just over the horizon, and a major state sponsor of terrorism.

Hamas on its own does not have the power to wipe Israel off the map, but their fellow travelers in the region, working together, could be a serious threat to Israel, and that's even more true if state actors got involved. Why do you think the US has sent two carrier strike groups to the Mediterranean? They're there to deter anyone else from taking a poke at Israel's back.

Either way, even though Hamas lacks the power to destroy Israel, there's no reason Israel should simply accept that Hamas is periodically going to kill a thousand or so Israelis.

[yardwork]

62. Without much expertise, I still feel fairly confident that Hamas has help.

For one thing, the anti-Israeli propaganda machine has been remarkably well organized. It went into motion on October 7 - remarkable, as I say. Reminds me a lot of the propaganda leading up to Brexit and Trump's election. It has those fingerprints...

Trump did various things... Iran... Putin... Israeli intelligence... Mar a Lago...

[SouthernDem4ever]

63. The anti-Israel propaganda machine has been in full swing since I was in college in 1981.

They were on campus then.

[Jedi Guy]

64. I see where you're coming from, though I don't agree.

It's tempting to lay everything bad that happens in the world at the feet of Putin, but that makes him into this global mastermind pulling the strings and manipulating literally dozens of countries and groups. This is the same guy whose military has spent the best part of two years struggling woefully to overrun Ukraine. He miscalculated there, and badly. He's not all-powerful or all-knowing by any means, and blaming him for everything bad happening in the world vastly blows him out of proportion. It's important to keep him "right sized" in our heads.

That said, it's curious indeed that protests against Israel sprang up before the blood of the victims from 10/7 had even cooled. Before the first bomb fell, the protesters were in the streets with their anti-Israel rhetoric. I chalk that up less to Putin the Mastermind and more to the strain of virulent anti-Semitism that, sadly, has infested a fair few people on the left. Humanity has never needed evil masterminds to motivate people to all acts of petty, small-minded evil. Some people get there all on their own.

[yardwork]

65. I'm not discounting antisemitism.

But why did Hamas do this right now? And the PR campaign was right there, on the spot. I don't think that was spontaneous. Nothing grass roots about it. Sure, antisemitism fuels it, but who lit the match? Why now?

I'm not giving Putin all the credit. Plenty of other actors are in the mix. God knows what secrets Trump sold or gave away....

[GuppyGal]

60. They are quite literally embedded with the people and hate to break it to you but they enjoy PLENTY of support

amongst those people. I have to laugh

[Beastly Boy]

4. It is, but shame on you for asking!

[yardwork]

5. I know, right?!

[Clash City Rocker]

77. And the person who said Israel has done it is antisemitic!

Again

[Beastly Boy]

79. Has done what? And what the person are you referring to?

I am trying to figure out where your sarcasm smilie belongs.

[meadowlander]

10. Does a war crime justify another war crime in response?

If a bank robber takes a hostage and the police come in and immediately shoot the hostage in the head so they have a clear shot at the bank robber, is the police officer entirely absolved of any responsibility for the death of the hostage? The police officer still pulled the trigger, without which the hostage would still be alive. Or do the circumstances actually matter, and what options there feasibly were, and why those other options weren't used instead?

[brooklynite]

11. Are you saying Israel is intentionally killing civilians in order to get to Hamas fighters?

[meadowlander]

13. I'm saying that they still have responsibility for the effects of the choices that they are making.

Bombing a hospital to get at the tunnels under it is a choice. You can debate the circumstances of that choice, whether there were feasible alternatives, etc. but you can't pretend it was an accident or that the person who pulled the trigger isn't at least in part the reason that the dead people are dead.

And yes, Hamas also has responsibility for the choices they are making. One party's bad choices don't justify or excuse the other party's bad choices.

[EX500rider]

19. When did they bomb a hospital to get to the tunnels underneath?

They would have to flatten a hospital to do that

[yardwork]

20. Since we don't know any real details and only have broad theoreticals...

Israel, if it chose to do so, could have wiped Gaza off the map, using only conventional weapons. The fact that they didn't do that, which is why we're in a position to second-guess their choices, is important to remember.

I've read that the number of Israelis killed by Hamas on October 7 is proportional to ~50,000 Americans. If we had lost 50,000 to a terrorist attack - with thousands more civilians held hostage - I can't imagine what the U.S. would do. I thought our response to 9/11 was wrong, but our response to 50,000 lost in one day? I can't imagine.

I have been very critical of Netanyahu's administration but I can't agree that all Israelis are to blame. I can't agree with Hamas that Jewish people need to be destroyed. I can't agree that Israelis are Nazis who are trying to exterminate anybody. Again, if they wanted to, they would have already.

I trust the Biden administration to do what they can to help a really bad situation that we didn't create and probably can't fix.

[Big Blue Marble]

44. Now do the same analysis for Gaza.

Using 11,500 which our state department said was probably understated as estimated around
20,000 deaths, the comparable number of US deaths would be 1,650,00 in five weeks.

What would we do if another country caused such high number of deaths to seek out criminals or terrorists?

[yardwork]

46. Israel is at war.

When Japan attacked the United States they paid a terrible price.

Why did Hamas attack Israel? I don't know. They started a war.

[Big Blue Marble]

54. Are you excusing this incredible number of causalities in 5 weeks with more to come?

Over five thousand children have been counted as killed with another thousand
who died a slow death trapped under rubble.

This is not a World War. Do not minimize or rationalize these deaths
It is more causalities than Russia caused in a year and a half..

[GuppyGal]

59. Hostages..........remember them? Just thought I'd give ya a lil reminder

Un fucking REAL

[yardwork]

61. I'm not excusing anything. War is war.

"This is not a world war." So what? Do a single one of the victims care whether their lives are lost in a "world war" or another type of war? What the hell difference does it make. War is war. Hamas started a war. Here it is.

[Big Blue Marble]

67. Hanas started this phase of a "war" that has been going on since

the early 20th century,. The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank has been under siege since the occupation
began in 1967. Israel has attacked defenseless Gaza 5 times since they "left" in 2005.

The Palestinians in the West Bank live under a brutal military dictatorship which is made worse
by the violent settlers attacking them with the support of the military. To them, it is an endless war.

No war is not war. There are different degrees and intensities of war. Please do not fall
prey to the messages to dehumanize 5 million people of Palestine who are still waiting
for justice, safety, and human rights that you and I expect everyday.

Just imagine looking into the eyes the one year old who is paralyzed for life or the
American teenager her lost her hand and saying sorry kido war is war.

[yardwork]

70. No. This is not an accurate summation.

[Big Blue Marble]

71. How is it inaccurate? N/T

[Kennah]

50. Nobody move

[William769]

12. Hamas is nothing but animals

Just as those that support them.

[redqueen]

14. This sounds like my Reich wing neighbors

but about 'abortionists'

[William769]

16. Did I hit a little to close to home?

If I did, good!

[redqueen]

18. If you're insinuating that I'm a Hamas supporter

[William769]

21. Just as you are insinuating that I'm a "Reich wing neighbors'.

[redqueen]

23. Lol no, I'm saying the language is the same.

Seeing people described as animals is shocking to some

[William769]

25. The who me defense? I would have thought better coming from you.

I also consider Nazi's, KKK animals.

And to be clear, I do not consider these 'people', they are subhuman.

[redqueen]

26. Well that's too bad, because like it or not they are still people.

The worst among us is capable of change.

[Mossfern]

81. Not really

That's a naive way of thinking. People change if they want to. Evil people rarely think that they need to change. Brain chemistry and anatomy has a part in it.

[Big Blue Marble]

45. It is really dangerous to call any group subhuman

no matter what they have done. And certainly ridiculous to call them animals as no animal species
kills millions of their own kind. That is a human specialty. They are actually acting as humans have
done for at least, thousands of years. We would all hope better of ourselves, but we keep repeating
the violence with more and more powerful weapons.

[redqueen]

74. Thank you

I would say I'm astonished that this needs to be explained here but...

[GuppyGal]

56. Then how would you describe them?

[Voltaire2]

32. all humans are 'nothing but animals'

I don't quite understand your point. Did you mean that they are not humans?

[claudette]

53. I don't know anyone who

actually SUPPORTS Hamas.

[Nanjeanne]

15. Of course it is. Is there a debate about it?

[yardwork]

17. To my surprise, yes, apparently there is.

[Cha]

22. "The use of human shields is a war crime23451, as it violates..

Human shields are civilians or prisoners of war who are used to deter attacks by occupying the space between a belligerent and a legitimate military target1. "The use of human shields is a war crime23451, as it violates.. " the prohibition of the use of civilians in warfare, which stems from the Geneva Conventions and their additional protocols51. The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, not the one attacking them, if the attack is proportionate4.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)

It's one of Many War Crimes by the Terrorist Org Hamas.

[yardwork]

24. One phrase jumped out at me:

The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, not the one attacking them, if the attack is proportionate.

[Cha]

27. "The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, "

The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, not the one attacking them, if the attack is proportionate.

Yes, Something to Remember!

[inthewind21]

31. Interesting

how THAT part was conveniently left off. Actually no, it's not. It's typical.

[Cha]

37. "Typical" of what? It was on the Front page of Google..

you don't think .. Hamas is "responsible for the deaths of Using Civilians for Human Sheilds"?

"The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, "

[DavidDvorkin]

28. "Unless the attacker is the IDF"

That seems to be the unwritten part, according to what I'm reading in various places, including DU.

[Cha]

30. Well you know what "they" can do with

that "unwritten rule"?

Thought so.

[TheRealNorth]

33. Proportionate is in the eye of the beholder...

So when you think Palestinian children are less innocent than Israeli children, dropping a bunker-buster to kill them all is a perfectly proportional, regardless of the situation.

Yes, the justifications make me sick.

[Happy Hoosier]

42. I don't think anyone here...

… thinks Palestinian children are worth less than Israeli children. But Hamas must be eliminated. I do think that necessity means that innocents will get injured or killed if Hamas insists, as they do, on placing their operations centers in or under normally protected civilian buildings. Their blood is on Hamas’ hands.

[Mossfern]

69. The 'bunker buster''

is not deployed to kill children.
It is deployed to destroy Hamas.

I know you understand the difference.
That's why those who deploy human shields (Hamas/Palestinian children) are
the ones responsible for their death.

[TheRealNorth]

72. If it kill a bunch if innocent people

It doesn't really fucking matter if you got the 1 bad guy.

[Mossfern]

73. It's the bad guy

who puts innocent people in front of himself for protection.
What would you have Israel do?
This is exactly the evil/cowardly strategy of Hamas.

Where is your indignation with them?

[TheRealNorth]

78. Thats a cop out

To avoid taking responsibility for your actions.

[Mossfern]

80. *MY* actions?

Hey, I'm sitting at my kitchen table in the States. I don't even kill most insects that make their way into my house. I capture them and then repatriate them with the great outdoors from wence they came.

Why doesn't Hamas take responsibility for their actions - return all hostages and surrender to Israel or a neutral entity. Then the attacks from Israel will end. I'd bet they'd even participate in rebuilding Gaza.

[Eko]

29. Hey Cha,

I couldn't find this part in your link.
The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, not the one attacking them, if the attack is proportionate.
Thanks

[Cha]

35. Sorry.. it was on the front page of Google..

and the link to wikipedia was right by it.

I just tried to find it again and I don't remember how I worded it the first time but it's not showing up again.

I tried just this, too..

"The party responsible for the death of human shields is the one deploying them, "

[Eko]

36. No problem, I figured it was something weird.

Hence why I asked.
Thanks!
Eko.

[Cha]

38. TY.. I have someone up thread telling

me how convenient it was that part left off and "typicle"".

[Eko]

39. Well,

I cant say as I really know you but I've had enough interactions with you to think you are on the up and up. In no way would I think you were doing something dishonest but the more likely reason was just a mistake. Hence why I asked. And while we may disagree sometimes we have always been respectful towards each other and I appreciate that.
Keep on Keeponing.
Eko.

[Cha]

41. Thank you so much for that.. Backatcha!

I should have posted the Google Url.. it was a big mistake. Lesson learned.

Here's another with the Google Address.. it seems Google complies Different Sources and gives their Summation.

According to 13 sources

Under international law, the term refers to civilians or other protected persons whose presence is used to render military targets immune from military operations. The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions and is considered a war crime as well as a violation of humanitarian law.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=IS+IT+A+WAR+CRIME+TO+USE+CIVILIANS+AS+HUMAN+SHIELDS&form=ANNTH1&refig=297bff95b6b54f1e80d3de576939b9b6&pc=HCTS

[onecaliberal]

34. Unless they are black/brown. Judging by history, that is just fine.

[Cha]

40. Another post on the Front Page of Google.. citing Yes It's Against the Law!

According to 13 sources

Under international law, the term refers to civilians or other protected persons whose presence is used to render military targets immune from military operations. The use of human shields is forbidden by Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions and is considered a war crime as well as a violation of humanitarian law.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=IS+IT+A+WAR+CRIME+TO+USE+CIVILIANS+AS+HUMAN+SHIELDS&form=ANNTH1&refig=297bff95b6b54f1e80d3de576939b9b6&pc=HCTS

[WarGamer]

48. Haven't armies disappeared into civilian infrastructure in EVERY recent war?

From WW2?

Were Russians in Stalingrad using Russian civilians as "human shields"??

Or Germans in the Battle of Berlin?

It's an odd question.

[Chautauquas]

66. Not at all uncommon

When fighting against an invading force it's natural to use guerrilla tactics. He who fights and runs away (or disperses into the general population) lives to fight another day. I think of the Viet Cong residing in villages and choosing their moments to attack US forces. Sometimes it's the only viable way to fight a superior force.

[LiberaBlueDem]

49. Sooner the better

When IDF occupies all of Gaza the bombing will stop

Because bombs could then kill IDF forces if IDF is there on the ground

[claudette]

52. Is it a war crime to

report that humans are used as shields when it may not be the case EVERY time innocent civilians in a hospital, e.g., are murdered?

[Blue Owl]

57. Fucking Santos/Devolder or whatever the fuck his name is

Has been using that baby an awful lot lately — what a pathetic fuck!

[GuppyGal]

58. Its a war crime just like Hamas committed on October 7th when they also broke the cease fire.

[Army Brat]

68. They still have protection as civilians

The use of force can't be excessive in terms of the military advantage gained.

[Voltaire2]

75. Is it a war crime to falsely justify attacking civilians by claiming they are being used as human shields?

[malaise]

76. It is a war crime to bomb hospitals

That is all