When Israel says it's over, then it's over.

[OAITW r.2.0]

This is it, no more incrementalism. Hamas started, Israeli's will finish.

[mactire]

1. Says WHO? !

Does that , perhaps, mean, live by the sword die by the sword? I hope there’s a more hopeful, peaceful outcome to this horrible situation that ensues. There’s too many innocent lives at stake. I don’t take sides other than those of the innocent victims.

[Takket]

2. says Israel.

i think from their standpoint they figure they can deal with the political fallout later but there is no force that is going to stop them so they may as well comb every square inch of Gaza until they are totally sure Hamas is dead

[LuvLoogie]

5. Or until every last Palestinian

is dead or driven out of Gaza. Do you suppose the annexation of the West Bank will stop when Israel says it will stop, as well?

Will Israel rebuild Gaza for any but Israeli settlements? Do you suppose Israel will keep Netanyahu on for another term in 2025/6?

[AloeVera]

14. Graveyard of children.

It's beyond disturbing to have to wonder if in 10 years' time we will be seeing Israeli villas and holiday resorts built atop that graveyard of children.

[maxsolomon]

42. The IDF will not kill or expel 2.3 million people from Gaza.

The hyperbole isn't helpful.

[LuvLoogie]

44. Doesn't that kind of depend on who's in charge?

Throughout his tenure Netanyahu has relied on coalition members that want precisely that.

How do you know when you've "eliminated Hamas?" Do you go after the sympathizers, the family members. Will there be criminal investigation of family ties--of the ones that are left? Will they get trials? Will they be executed, imprisoned, exiled?

What to do with the real estate?

"West Coast is the new West Bank!"

So kill Hamas until "Israel" is sure they're dead? Did they check the bodies for their Hamas member cards? Will "Israel" stop once all the member cards are accounted for?

The hyperbole is in the OP. Real Wrath of God type stuff.

[maxsolomon]

45. No, it doesn't depend on who is in charge.

Even a Likud Govt will not kill or expel 2.3 million Gazans. It's a practical impossibility.

I'll just ignore the rest of your hypotheticals and slippery slopes. The OP is also unhelpful chest beating.

[LuvLoogie]

52. My hypotheticals are the ramifications of the OP.

The end game of eradicating Hamas is never discussed by those supporting this blank check for an Israeli response to Oct. 7th.

HOW do you kill them all without killing them all? Complete the annexation of Palestinian lands? Choose someone more efficient and effective than Netanyahu?

Does living peacefully with Palestinians include them being driven from their homes by IDF-protected settlers, ad hoc?

These are choices for Israelis to make, for sure. For several decades they've chosen Netanyahu's leadership. Most want to remove him now, but to what end, in support of what policies?

[krawhitham]

66. I remember when most here were against wars

[maxsolomon]

84. Really? Were you here after 9/11?

I don't remember many on DU saying we shouldn't take military action in Afghanistan.

[brush]

59. Who said they would? I'm advocating negotiations for a Palestinian state.

[maxsolomon]

85. Post 5.

I was replying to their hyperbolic assertions.

[GuppyGal]

61. +1000

[OAITW r.2.0]

7. Fuckin right. Hamas started this ridiculous war

Israel will finish these idiots.

[electric_blue68]

13. Are you saying you think the illegal West Bank settlements are ok?

[electric_blue68]

20. Hmm... I ask a serious question, and you give me (imo) a rather snarky eff off answer?

What kind of dialogue is that?

Hamas must be dealt with severly, rooted out (and they are cowards for hiding around civilians) etc, but Netanyahu is a corrupt bastard who is waging pretty egregious destruction on Gaza.

(I would not call it genocide, though)

[Marcus IM]

47. It's not dialog. It's pot stirring and antagonistic.

Especially considering the polling numbers of Dem voters, it is tantamount to anti-Biden posting.

[electric_blue68]

50. Well, I meant a dialogue w the OP on asking my question, but I get what you're saying

[womanofthehills]

30. Majority of Americans are now against this war

New poll numbers that just came out are not looking good because of this war. Americans are seeing injured & dead little Palestinian kids every day on their phones . It’s a sadness just lingering with most Americans all day long. Just saw a baby under one being held by her parents with both legs amputated & now I have to try to go to sleep with that image imbedded in my mind.

Guess many on here are not parents or grandparents. My great grandson- one of the loves of my life - is Anglo, Hispanic and Palestinian. He’s a very handsome, kind, and extremely smart boy and he looks so similar to so many little Palestinian boys I see online - injured and traumatized! It makes me physically sick 😢😢😢😢

[lapfog_1]

32. I am a parent... of a 22 year old woman

who loves to go to the type of festival that Hamas targeted.

When I saw the image of the young German woman, mostly naked, the back of a pickup truck being driven around in Gaza and all the men (and quite a few boys) yelling and scream Allah Akbar and trying to take pictures of this young women with their cell phones and running after the truck... I pictured MY daughter in that scene. Fortunately the girl was already dead... but the men in the pickup truck had to know that... they were just parading her dead and naked body around for the crowd.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/08/german-shani-louk-naked-woman-hamas-paraded-gaza/

Those men... and the men celebrating mass murder... they need to die either directly or after a long long prison sentence.

THAT right there was a war crime.

Fuck all those in GAZA that are Hamas or who SUPPORT HAMAS.

So yes, I don't want to see Palestinian babies killed... but if I was in command of the IDF i would ask the question... how many Israeli soldiers must die to keep from using bombs to kill Hamas and accidentally kill Palestinian women and children... because sending in ground forces to fight in the streets is going to get a lot of IDF soldiers killed. Those soldiers have parents and spouses and children too. How many phone calls would you have to make to the relatives of those soldiers to tell them that their son or daughter is dead because of "world criticism" of using targeted bombs and missiles that accidentally kill Palestinians.

The other alternative is simply to ignore the slaughter of civilians and babies on Oct 7, thus giving Hamas a great deal of support from the Palestinian people who see their acts as defend-able because "Israeli settlers built settlements".

I weep for the mother of the German girl who was shot in the back of the head, probably trying to run away from armed murderers... who was just attending an electronic music festival.

[Jedi Guy]

53. I would suggest that Israel doesn't much care what the majority of Americans thinks.

We have oceans to the east and west and friendly neighbors to the north and south. We can go about our days not worrying about the sirens suddenly announcing incoming rockets from Canada or Mexico. America hasn't endured multiple wars of conquest by its neighbors in living memory. The last major terrorist attack on Americans took place over two decades ago.

Israel, on the other hand, has hostile nations on all sides but the west. Go on Google Maps and take a look at places like Tel Aviv and Sderot and Be'er Sheva and Haifa, and you'll see bomb shelters dotting the map the way Starbucks do in American cities. Israelis go about their daily lives with one ear listening for those incoming rockets. They know a major terrorist attack like 10/7 is not just possible, but likely. The multiple wars waged against Israel, to say nothing of the Holocaust, can be discussed with people who lived through them.

Americans don't get it and live in a paradigm Israelis would love to have, so I can only imagine they don't give a tinker's damn what the American public's opinion on the war in Gaza might be. The Israelis also knew that any sympathy they might enjoy after 10/7 would be short-lived, and it most certainly was. The protests sprang up within 24 hours, before the blood of the dead had cooled or the first bomb had been dropped.

[LeftInTX]

68. Many Israelis are US citizens or are eligible to be citizens here.

They literally move there bombs and all. Some are settlers. Then, they expect us to pay the bill.

[Jedi Guy]

70. 10% of nearly 9.4 million doesn't strike me as "many."

And that's total, not just dual citizenship with the United States. A little Googling showed about 200,000 Israelis with dual US citizenship. Sadly, I don't think your assertion holds up against actual facts.

[LeftInTX]

67. It doesn't matter what we think

[brush]

51. Instead of bombing, now that retaliation has been achieved, maybe...

a two-state solution is in order finally, where Palestinians have there own area, as does Israel now. And the two sides no longer have to interact at all.

Israel doesn't have to supply them, have checkpoints, no more settlers taking Palestinian lands.

Basically just go their separate ways.

[Jedi Guy]

55. A two-state solution would indeed be ideal, except for one tiny problem.

The Palestinians want it all. They want all the land "from the river to the sea." Israel cannot and must not sit down at the negotiating table as long as that's the position the Palestinians are sitting down with. Israel cannot be expected to start negotiations from the position of "Okay, how about we not cease to exist, is that workable?"

Unless and until the Palestinians understand and accept that they cannot have it all and they have to settle for some of what they want, no two-state solution is possible.

[brush]

57. After the devastation that has happened in Gaza you really think the Muslims/Arabs...

are going to come with that old trope of wanting it all? And at the same time, Bibi and Likud have to give up on their obvious position of never allowing a Palestinian state.

And the US can not be the lead negotiator as we are not honest brokers...we are the ones supplying the weapons that are destroying Gaza.

Perhaps the Swiss or other neutral nations who have not been involved, and no surrogate states from either side please.

[Jedi Guy]

58. Yes, I really think the Palestinians will continue to want it all. I see little likelihood of change there.

As long as they cling to the delusional dream of destroying Israel and undoing the Nakba, no two-state solution is possible. They have to accept that Israel is going to continue to exist and they're not going to get all the land they want.

For its part, Israel needs to come to the table with an open mind and a willingness to listen, and a willingness to part with enough good land for the Palestinians to have a state capable of supporting themselves and being self-sufficient.

The US can absolutely be a broker for such a deal (and has been the intermediary for past failed accords) as long as both the Israelis and the Palestinians are willing to listen to each other and negotiate in good faith. Having other countries involved will certainly be helpful, of course. There's no need for the US to go it alone.

[brush]

60. You seem to be the one who is inflexible in their position and...

and unwilling to work for a two-state solution. It seems if it's left up to you the lather-spin-rinse repeat cycle of violence will continue for another 75 years.

Pathetic.

[Jedi Guy]

63. How do you figure that, pray tell?

The Palestinians have walked away from two-state negotiations in the past because they didn't get every single thing they wanted. If that doesn't bespeak a certain inflexibility, what does it bespeak?

Israel cannot negotiate with the Palestinians as long as the latter remained fixed on the destruction of the former, and it's far from your place to tell them otherwise. Until the Palestinians are ready to accept that and abandon terrorism as a means to get what they want, nothing will change.

Pathetic, indeed. Your position is ridiculous.

[brush]

64. After the near total destruction of Gaza, and continued bombings...

you contend that the Palestinians there, bereft of any bargainiing position against an overwhemingly more powerful force will still insist on a 75-year-old "all or nothing" policy?

I don't know, your knowledge of human behavior in desperate cirumstances is sorely lacking.

[Jedi Guy]

71. After 75 years of continued violence...

They have continued to insist on an all or nothing policy. What do you think "from the river to the sea" means, exactly, if not the whole of the territory currently occupied by Israel? Explain why they walked away from two-state negotiations in which they got nearly everything they wanted. They want it all.

I don't know, your understanding of delusional zealotry is sorely lacking.

[brush]

73. Show me were that comes from Gazans being bombed and herded south. Sounds like something from demonstrators...

not under fire who then go home to dinner and a comfortable bed.

[Jedi Guy]

74. These poll results from this year might be of interest to you. Emphasis mine.

Only 28% support the two-state solution
71% support the formation of armed groups
53% support a return to an armed intifada, 47% support waging peaceful resistance, and 26% support a one-state solution
52% believe that armed action is the best way to end occupation

When three out of four Palestinians don't support a two-state solution, what do they support, do you suppose? With a clear majority supporting the formation of armed groups and slim majorities supporting violence, what inferences do you draw from that regarding their feelings on Israel's right to exist?

Again, as long as the Palestinians have their hearts set on returning to how things were before the formation of Israel, there can be no meaningful negotiations. Israel can't be expected to sit down at the table and start the discussion with, "Is it okay if we exist?"

If a two-state solution is ever to come to fruition, both sides are going to have to accept that 1) they're not going to get everything they want, and 2) they might have to give up some of what they have.

[brush]

75. Yeah, sure, people being bombed and herded south have time to be polled.

Come up with something better, dude. Most people know that polls can be manipulated to give any results the pollster's client wants.

[Jedi Guy]

80. "Come up with something better, dude."

Translation: This doesn't confirm what I want to believe, therefore I'm going to dismiss it.

Come up with something better, yourself.

[brush]

82. It confirms what you want to believe.

Let's just agree to disagree. We think differently.

How many innocent Palestinian deaths are sufficient to make up for the 1500 innocent Israeli deaths?

12,000 and counting isn't enough?

[Big Blue Marble]

65. Actually, there is another tiny little problem.

Many in Israel including 800,00 settlers living on stolen land want it all as well.

[Jedi Guy]

72. Well...

When many, if not most, Palestinians approach the issue with the belief that Israel should cease to exist so all of the land reverts to them, I'd say that's not a hopeful basis for negotiations to proceed from, really.

Israel can't be expected to begin negotiating from the position of, "Can we continue to exist, pretty please?"

[claudette]

77. How very

cruel to support the murder of innocents. When will the revenge by the Israeli government stop?

[brush]

81. If they observe the rules of engagement and make every effort to...

ensure the safety of media, non-combatants and rescue personnel, I'm ok with that.

Eliminate Hama by all means.

But the bombings and air strikes on civilian areas must stop as they're not hitting the terrorists hiding in their tunnels.

[Beastly Boy]

17. Says Hamas.

They can't govern if their luxury hotel accommodations in Qatar depended on it.

Lucky for them, they don't.

[RockRaven]

3. Probably not. History says otherwise.

Even when Israel says it is over it probably won't be. Everyone should be making their decisions with that in mind, but many aren't.

[DemocraticPatriot]

4. Israel previously stated that 'this war' might last "ten years"....

That would be far too long, if the ariel bombing were to continue for all that time...

[David__77]

6. The US must cut aid to that fascist government

They can do their annihilation campaigns without US support.

[JustAnotherGen]

8. We also have to cut

All relations with Qatar which is harboring the vile Hamas leadership. When Qatar puts every last one of them on a plane to Gaza - then things can go back to the way they were with Qatar.

Its fair.

[OAITW r.2.0]

10. The fucking billionaires shorting Israel, should pay.

[TexasDem69]

16. On the contrary

The US should increase aid to Israel immediately.

[enid602]

28. Aid to Israel

The evangelicals won’t permit that.

[Kennah]

34. Are you kidding?

I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church. There is a surreal love/hate relationship with Jews.

Jesus was a Jew
Jews killed Jesus
Jews are God's chosen people
Jews don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God
The Bible tells that twice as many Jews who died in the Holocaust will die in the Final Battle

The surest way to give up one's Christian faith is to start reading the Bible yourself and asking questions people don't want you asking.

More than once, I asked these questions and others:
So, how do we feel about Jews?
Do we love them or hate them?
If they are God's chosen people, then should we not convert?

More than once, I heard, "I'm praying for you, brother." Which I came to know means, "Shut the fuck up."

[enid602]

35. Evangelicals

John Hagee, an evangelical mega church preacher known for saying anti semitic things in the past was a keynote at the pro-Israeli rally in Washington on 11/14. According to the NPR/PBS News Hour/Marist poll dated 11/9, 56% of Democrats feel that the Israeli response in Palestine has been too much. Only 13% of Republicans feel this is the case.

White evangelicals vote Republican. They feel that transfer of Gaza and the West Bank to Israel will foresee the Second Coming. It’s a thing. Lots of info by googling.

[Kennah]

36. As I say, they both love and hate Jews

[enid602]

39. Allies

Strange bedfellows.

[Kennah]

41. No more strange than the US and the Soviets during WWII

[enid602]

46. Very true

Very true

[Autumn]

37. Those fucking evangelicals would love it. Israel comes first to them over our country

They believe Israel will bring about the end times and the death and destruction that will bring their god back.

[Mosby]

54. They have real elections in Israel.

FYI.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

86. "aid to that fascist government"

You're sounding like Putin now who accused Zelensky, who is Jewish, of being a Nazi.

[David__77]

87. You think Netanyahu is not a fascist?

You think his government is not rife with hardened racists?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

89. You said "aid to that fascist government"

As pointed out in the other reply Israel has free elections.

I don't like Netanyahu either but his coalition government is not Fascist. Choose your words carefully.

[David__77]

90. I said what I meant. I think the government has a fascist character.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

9. This tactic, even if it gets rid of Hamas,

is going to create Hamas 2.0. Perhaps there is a better way.

[Beastly Boy]

18. Hamas certainly doesn't think so.

What's the difference between Hamas 1 and Hamas 2 anyway?

[SouthernDem4ever]

22. How many times has there been a better way

never seems to work.

[lapfog_1]

33. ok, what is that better way?

Cease fire? There was a cease fire until Hamas broke it on Oct 7.

BTW, Hamas is still sending rockets from Gaza ( and southern Lebanon ) into Israel...

Palestinians (many of them ) do not want a "2 state solution". The Hamas charter calls for all jews "from the river to the sea" to be killed. That is a stated goal of genocide. The only one in that region.

This war was started to kill a peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

A peace agreement.

And so many on the left (the far left) are saying Israel started this and that Israel is committing genocide. And that Biden is somehow responsible... and that makes me sick.

[maxsolomon]

43. Hezbollah is launching rockets from S. Lebanon.

Hamas is not Hezbollah. Please distinguish.

[LeftInTX]

69. Hamas is also. I know..but they are also in Lebanon

I see it on the IDF's twitter...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/hamas-armed-wing-says-it-fired-16-rockets-at-israel-from-southern-lebanon

[Sneederbunk]

11. How long to subdue an area about twice the size of Washington, DC?

[Eko]

12. The what happens is on them.

The good and the bad.

[AloeVera]

19. Yes.

As the Occupying Power besieging Gaza, they are accountable for everything that happens to the civilians.

Mass starvation, thirst, disease, indiscriminate bombings (in President Biden's words no less) - they will be held accountable.

This is ugly beyond words.

[Beastly Boy]

21. Also global warming,

the extinction of the Dodo bird, and the abandoned puppies at the ASPCA.

[AloeVera]

24. You would find all this funny, of course.

n/t

[Beastly Boy]

26. Not funny. Just bitterly sarcastic.

[AndyJaque]

31. Yes... The Butcher's Bill Will Be Interesting Reading

The Butcher's Bill

Meaning: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butcher%27s%20Bill

[Skittles]

23. .....

which is why it never fucking ends

[FHRRK]

25. Holy fucking shit

This is what was being said by RWers post 911!

[Mossfern]

27. Is this a spoof thread?

[AndyJaque]

38. Apparently Not

[patphil]

29. The hatred between Israeli's and Arabs cannot be stopped unless both sides decide to stop it.

The statement that it's over when Israel says it's over is only valid until the next attack.
At this time, I don't see how there can ever be peace in Gaza, the West Bank, or anywhere in between. The blood of the dead on each side creates the fertile ground for continued hatred, and more bloodshed.
Right now, both sides are busy feeding the beasts; the dogs of war. If there is no change in the attitudes of both sides, their children's children will be carrying on this blood feud for the rest of this century.
When will they ever learn?

[claudette]

78. The hatred

on both sides will never end. It's the WAR that has to end by both sides.

[republianmushroom]

40. Yup, and not before.

[elocs]

48. There are no white hats in this conflict, only a terrorist hat and a retribution hat.

But it's the Palestinians of Gaza who will pay the price with the deaths of their innocents for the Israelis having let their guard down on a holiday. Otherwise it needs to be confessed that Hamas are military masterminds. It seems that Hamas committing its atrocities against Israel somehow justifies the unintentional killings of Palestinian innocents. This will not look good to history.

[GuppyGal]

62. It actually follows along with History

[Model35mech]

49. Israel understands it must deal with the 'costs'

If the US steps back and refuses to provide monetary and material assistance, the war will end rather sooner that if it was running on Israels ability to tolerate long term megadebt

[claudette]

79. It seems to me that

Last edited Mon Nov 20, 2023, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Israel is losing support because of its cruel bombardment of innocents in Gaza.

[Model35mech]

83. Yes. It's difficult when the 'ends' justifies the 'means'

to one party, and to the other party the morality of the 'means' can break an alliance.

[David__77]

88. Absolutely.

Israel should pay for its war, not the people in this country.

[AntiFascist]

56. Netanyahu doesn't want it to end, as long as it keeps him in power. n/t

[claudette]

76. When?

Will the Israeli government say it's "over" when ALL the Palestinians in Gaza are dead?