Senator Sanders: The Netanyahu government, or hopefully a new Israeli government, must understand that not one penny

[Celerity]

will be coming to Israel from the U.S. unless there is a fundamental change in their military and political positions. Read my statement:

Link to tweet

[thomski64]

1. ...no two State solution..

...no more aid.. full stop. And ceasing settler violence and seizure must be halted and seized property returned, or not one penny of aid..

[Basic LA]

2. Exactly right.

Starting now.

[Elessar Zappa]

9. Not possible while Hamas rules Gaza.

They don’t want a two-state solution, they want Israel to cease to exist. How are Israeli’s supposed to work with that?

[Crunchy Frog]

27. That has nothing to do with the situation of settler violence in the West Bank.

[Elessar Zappa]

29. I didn't say it did?

I was just responding specifically to the idea that a two-state solution is possible right now. And as far as settler violence, yeah, if they’re killing or injuring innocents then they’re on the same moral plane as Hamas.

[enid602]

3. Homes

“the right of displaced Gazans to return to their homes”

What homes? Few left in Gaza.

[Celerity]

7. For many Gazans now, their spatial realities will be quite liminal and of unknown temporal duration

[UTUSN]

4. Too late for me, my admiration for SANDERS grows and grows.

[Duncan Grant]

5. 25 recommendations; 5 replies

I wonder if this means anything? Anyhow — thanks Bernie! A left-wing response at last!

[malaise]

12. Not fair

He has been very vocal from the beginning of this unjustified response

[Duncan Grant]

23. It's not a criticism of Bernie. I appreciate his leadership.

Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

[malaise]

24. Cool

[David__77]

6. I'm glad he's speaking up more of this please

[Donkees]

8. Conditioning aid to Israel was included in both of his presidential campaigns

He has been putting the focus on human rights violations for many years.

[David__77]

21. Yes, and that is good. I'm glad he's speaking up about it now..

[Waterguy]

10. I agree with Bernie Sanders

And the U.S. is just as guilty, decade after decade,
It's not the Jewish People, not anti semetic
to push for human rights.

[malaise]

11. K & R

Well said Bernie Sanders

[Martin Eden]

13. I have great respect for Bernie, and I agree that aid to Israel

...should NOT be unconditional. And yet, it always has been even when a rightwing extremist government continues to undermine our own national interests in the region and render the two state solution IMPOSSIBLE.

NO Isreali government will forcibly evict the settlers from their West Bank settlements, some of which are multi generational communities. Netanyahu has been steadily establishing facts on the ground. There can be no sovereign Palestinian state with the West Bank sliced & diced by Jewish settlements and the roads connecting them controlled by Israeli forces.

Barring eviction, would a more left wing Israeli government remove its forces protecting the settlers, leaving them as residents subject to the authority of a Palestinian government and people with deep resentment and scores to settle against them?

I think not, especially in the wake of the Oct 7 atrocity and what followed. Hamas invades Israel, brutally murdering more than a thousand civilians, and this results in abandoning the Jews in the West Bank to the tender mercies of a Palestinian authority after Israel kills 10x as many of their civilians in Gaza?

Ain't gonna happen. The potential for a two state solution is an irreconcilable shambles, and there is no one state solution that is not an Apartheid state. Demographics are such that Jews could become a minority in a unified land, and Israel would cease to be the Jewish state if Palestinians had full citizenship rights.

There is no end in sight to the horrible tragedy and endless cycle of violence surrounding Jerusalem, which should be an international city of peace and brotherhood for the three Abrahamic monotheistic religions.

[David__77]

14. It sounds like the only solution is a single state.

[Mosby]

17. Yeah, right.

Link to tweet

[Igel]

18. Yup. The returning conquering heroes. n/t

[Cha]

25. Fuckers Celebrating the Return of HAMAS' Butchering Israelis.

Link to tweet

[Kennah]

32. That might be possible if the One True God would have just created One Narrative

[EndlessWire]

15. The way to peace is a two state solution.

I personally favor three, but no one is interested in that. I don't see two pieces of Palestine, separated by wide chunks of Israel, as being viable. Once before, they tried to overcome this problem by planning for roadways back and forth, but that was then, and this is now. But separating out Gaza as a country, and also separating out TWB as yet another country, is doable.

Hamas has got to be ended. Let Gaza elect a new government, and let the PA rule TWB--unless the West Bank also wants an election. Let Israel be Israel, and leave them both alone.

You know very well that Netanyahu will attempt to settle Gaza like they're doing in TWB. This is not right. This is why Gaza needs to become a country (without Hamas.) I think Israel should pay the settlers in the WB to move out of what would become a foreign country. Those settlers are very problematical, but perhaps some of them would stay peacefully. I personally would choose to leave.

What Hamas did to provoke this latest conflict were crimes against humanity. There is no excuse for it. If you pick a fight with a country, you better be prepared to fight, and if you can't, better plan an exit strategy. Hamas wanted all the rest of the Arab countries to join in their fight. When a complete regional war did not materialize, they are now relying on the hostage status to leverage against the warfare. Israel is going to ferret out every last one of them, at least those in Gaza. Not much is said about the leaders living in Qatar. Or, the WB.

I think that Israel risks the complete loss of world opinion, if the two or three state solution is not chosen for the post war Palestinians. No one cares if Israel wipes out the vicious Hamas gang. They just don't. Hamas doesn't stand for anything but endless war. But, after this, at some point, Israel needs to talk about letting the Palestinians have their own country. It will take years and billions of dollars, but it could be done.

We have every right to tell them this, and to control our foreign aid as WE see fit. It's not chump change they are waiting for. Again, I'd rather see all the aid go to Ukraine, if the Palestinians aren't going to get a chance to be free. Israel needs to declare this intention in some form that's concrete, like an accord, or something. This might be hard with all the infrastructure destroyed and the inhabitants refugees, but maybe the UN could help out.

We have warships strategically placed to prevent widening conflict. Some of our soldiers have been injured. We have teeth in the game and Israel needs to listen. I'm all for getting rid of Hamas, but equally in favor of that two-state solution. And I also think that Jerusalem should be a world city and not belonging to one or the other.

[Martin Eden]

22. Very thoughtful post, but I think a Palestinian state in the WB is next to impossible

Very few if any WB settlers will leave, and no Israeli government would survive the next election if it tried to force them to leave.

And where would they go? Does the tiny state of Israel have a surplus of empty housing or land to develop communities comparable to what the settlers already have in the WB?

The only real leverage the US has over Israel is the withholding of aid. Politically, that is very risky in American domestic politics. Far too many voters would swallow the shrieking narrative that we're taking the side of vicious terrorists over our longtime democratic ally.

I'm not religious but I would pray to God I'm wrong about this, if praying would do any good.

But I don't see a good ending emerging from the rubble of the current horrific violence and death.

Seeds for the next generation of terrorists have been firmly planted. Extremists on either side can all too easily scuttle any progress in a fragile effort for a peaceful solution.

[Celerity]

28. Your post and the one you replied to are 2 of the best short discussions I have seen on DU since the Oct 7 shitshow

kicked off. Grown-up, well informed, serous treatments.



I tend to think that you are unfortunately right in terms of TWB.

Let's look at the numbers and distribution of Palestinians, based off mid 2022 numbers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

Total population (with 7.5 million or so in either TWB, Gaza, or Israel) 14.3 million (probably more than 15 million now, due to some of the data being a bit old, and maybe over 16 million if you had an accurate account in Jordan)

Regions with significant populations

State of Palestine 5,350,000
– West Bank 3,190,000 (of whom 809,738 are registered refugees as of 2017)
– Gaza Strip 2,170,000 (of whom 1,386,455 are registered refugees as of 2018)

Jordan 2,175,491 (2017, registered refugees only)–3,240,000 (2009)

Israel 2,037,000

Syria 568,530 (2021, registered refugees only)

Saudi Arabia 400,000

Qatar 295,000

United Arab Emirates 200,000

Lebanon 174,000 (2017 census)–458,369 (2016, registered refugees)

Kuwait 80,000
Egypt 70,000
Libya 59,000
Iraq 57,000
Yemen 29,000
Algeria 4,030

Chile 500,000 (Chile is home to the largest Palestinian population outside of the Middle East, when population adjusted and compared to the US, they have 8.5 million, US equivalent)

United States 255,000
Honduras 27,000–200,000
Germany 100,000

El Salvador 70,000
Brazil 59,000
Canada 50,975
United Kingdom 20,000
Peru 15,000
Mexico 13,000
Colombia 12,000
Netherlands 9,000–15,000
Australia 7,000 (est.)
Sweden 7,000 (likely now closer to 10,000, which is around 325,000 or so when population adjusted and compared to the US's 255,000)

The extreme RWers in Israel (Netanyahu's base) want to kick out all 7.5 million from I/TWB/G.

The most extreme. lie Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and his ilk also want to take over the Jordanian part of the East Bank and kick out over 3 million or so there as well, PLUS take all the rest of Jordan, along with small parts of Syria and Saudi Arabia.





The last scenario is incredibly unlikely for decades (if ever), so that leaves the 7.5 million Palestinians in I/TWB/G.

Gaza is crazy fluid now now, bit there are forces who want to remove all Palestinians from it, using incrementalist means as the war proceeds. I do not know if the US stands by and allows that a Trump administration likely would). I so doubt it, as if it clear they are genociding/ethnic cleansing all out of Gaza, many other forces may well attack.

The West Bank will continue to deteriorate as more and more illegal settlements are built and the settlers become more violent and emboldened. I agree that it will be next to impossible, at least for ages, to get Israel to remove them all, bit that is the only roadmap there to true peace, so colour it fucked.

The Palestinians in Israel proper would be the last to be driven out, BUT if the RW Israelis actually do proceed to successfully clear out Gaza and The West Bank, they will deffo come under the cosh too.

Israel will never agree to an actual one state, fair state solution. They would likely be demographically overwhelmed, especially if right of return was granted to 8 plus million Palestinians living outside of I/G/TWB.

There really is no win win solution, as even if somehow all 7.5 million Palestinians were removed from I/G/TWB, the surrounding states will then just bombard Israel (as there is almost no risk of killing fellow Arabs, who have all been removed) until Israel literally goes nuclear, which will trigger untold millions of dead (and put the US and other western nuclear powers in a place where, in order to keep up the doctrine of nuclear deterrence, they will have to attack (likely with nukes) Israel itself). This is because the ONLY way nuclear deterrence works is that if a country uses nukes first, they have to be destroyed to the point of permanent (or as close to that as is possible) inability to threaten again nuclearly for ages). That all is the ticket to WWIII.

Bottom line:

I think this shitshow of death-spirals continues unabated for decades.

[EndlessWire]

30. It's a complicated problem.

But, here's the thing. You can't wage modern day warfare without a whole lot of money, and a partner to back you up. Friends.

I doubt that they could just roll into Jordan. Maybe an agreement can be reached with Jordan for slivers of territory, but with the Palestinians. Not with Israel.

I think that if all we have to influence Israel is our money and friendship, then we should use it. Israel may have to choose between their own, solid country, and giving up such insane ambitions, or going it alone and risk annihilation by their neighbors. I'm not so sure that Israel's neighbors will leave them alone even if they quit fighting and give the Palestinians the land, but it's worth a shot. There is no other way.

I sorta hate to say it, because Israel is not my country, and I respect their sovereignty, but it seems to me that Netanyahu is not up to handling this. He's an annihilist who is among annihilists who want to do to the Palestinians what the Jews had done to themselves through WW2. They seem to be modifying the popular slogan, "Never again," to "Never again if done to me, but if done to you, not so sure." There is no room for this in the modern world. Like it or not, the world is watching.

And, I think they feel that we are all stupid. I cannot shake the feeling day by day that Israel is flat out lying about their intentions. The first thing is, they are going to bomb the shit outta South Gaza. I think that if they knew, as they now claim, that the leadership bunkers and launch pads are there and not under the hospitals as claimed, that they should use ground troops. It is possible that they have this new knowledge through the fortunes of war, but don't try to blow smoke up American asses. I don't want my tax dollars going for this.

I am not that pessimistic over finally getting a settlement for Palestine. It would be a shame if some deal was brokered with Hamas long gone, and they then continue senseless attacks using some other militant group. The final steps are coming up, and appearances are everything. The best thing for the region is for Israel to give up its ambition to own Palestinian land.

I am struck with the similarity between Russia and its ambition to take over all those former parts of the USSR, now their own countries, and possibly a few others if they can get away with it, and Israel's ambition to take over Gaza, TWB, and parts or all of various other countries. I stand with Ukraine against Russia, and if I have to choose between Palestine and Israel, I will not support Israel if they will not give up Palestine.

And, I am not antisemitic; I support the stated intent to eliminate Hamas, but with Israel's stated intention to basically occupy Gaza without a two-state solution, well, I don't want them using our military might and our tax dollars to fund that. It's dishonest, and no one is fooled, anyway.

Basically, Israel is being asked to choose peace. I doubt that Biden will give up on this. Netanyahu should resign. I don't follow Israeli politics, and I was surprised when he somehow managed to return to power. I'll bet there are a decent amount of ordinary Israelis who would love to have a permanent peace. These two separate populations do not have to love each other. They never have to forgive each other for Oct. 7. But, it would be prudent to start talking.

Let's see how many hostages come back. Boy, what a mistake that was.

[Kennah]

33. Two might be possible--Israel and the West Bank

I don't see Gaza turning into anything but endless war

[Army Brat]

16. Israel is due condemnation, not aid

How do you enforce the conditions? Aid should be discontinued and then reconsidered when Israel makes these changes and shows itself worthy.

[Goddessartist]

19. 100%

[Autumn]

20. I support Bernie Sanders 100% and more on this.

Never back down Bernie. Never. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Time for Hamas and Netanyahu to act like humans and out people first over what they want. It's also time for them to treat our leaders with respect which they have not done in a long time. There must be a 2 state solution if they want our support.

Israel has the right to survive and thrive. As does Palestine have the right to survive and thrive.

[democrank]

26. Thank you, Bernie

Yet again…..

[myohmy2]

31. sounds...

...reasonable to me...

...that's my Bernie...

...