I'm not sure I like it here any more.

[cilla4progress]

They've come up with an issue that seems to be harmfully dividing us (Hamas-Israel war).

If we can be divided, what hope is there for the world?

[elleng]

1. Israel/Palestine been a difficult issue @ DU for some time.

Recall there was a separate forum, with 'restrictions,' before DU4.

[elleng]

7. I don't know why.

[LiberaBlueDem]

232. Ceasefire NOW

Save the mothers and children

[Angleae]

161. Israel/Palestine group still exists.

Navigate/Issue Forums
or
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1134

[elleng]

189. Thanks

[sunflowerseed]

2. We can be reunited

We IMHO should unite against war.

[NoRethugFriends]

4. Geez. Nobody ever thought of that.

[KPN]

12. Geez.

[Disaffected]

18. Case in point. nt

[KS Toronado]

154. +100

...

[Irish_Dem]

3. Obviously one goal of HAMAS is to create global division.

Especially to divide western democracies.

Liberals and progressives have been targeted.
Now that the GOP is in disarray, time to target the other side.

An important goal for those funding and helping HAMAS.

Who benefits and how?

Once again we see a very successful propaganda campaign.
Genius in fact.

[dalton99a]

10. +1. Mass murderers and rapists are viewed as blameless victims

[Big Blue Marble]

16. By whom?

Posts that accuse DU'ers of supporting Hamas are removed.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

33. I would not have expected

"Posts that accuse DU'ers of supporting Hamas..."

But I've seen them. They seem willfully obtuse, to me.

And stubbornly repetitive.

[onecaliberal]

92. This.

💯

[Irish_Dem]

109. My post is not about Hamas.

Not at all.

[Think. Again.]

45. That right there...

...is a pure example of "harmfully dividing us".

[Irish_Dem]

106. Don't let people divide you.

Stay together with your party.
It is imperative.

[Think. Again.]

108. Excellent advice, thank you...

...despite the distractions and relatively minor disagreements we face here, we do need to keep the bigger picture in mind and remind ourselves and each other that the election in November 2024 must be won by as many Democratic candidates as possible.

[Irish_Dem]

110. There are serious attempts to divide us right now.

Some very brilliant strategies at work.
That is my point.

We cannot let our party be divided and end up fighting each other
like the damn GOP.

[Chainfire]

67. I have seen a lot of accusations that people are defending Hamas, but no posts to that effect.

Most or all of us believe that the original attack was horrible and indefencable. Some of believe that the overreaction by Israel is also horrible. Some seem to believe that Israel is incapable of sin. Nothing about the whole situation is black and white, but varing shades of gray.

Believing that Israel has gone too far in the number of people that they have killed, and the amount of destruction that they are responsible for is not support for Hamas, and I am a bit disturbed that folks try to make it so.

[onecaliberal]

93. It's a devastating revelation to me.

[Irish_Dem]

107. Yes extremely brilliant war propaganda.

[wyldwolf]

186. or, at the very least, tolerated...

... to further what has become left wing dogma.

[Diraven]

42. Really?

So everyone on one side of this debate are Hamas dupes?

Conspiracy theory.

[ShazzieB]

72. No one said that.

Literally no one.

[Irish_Dem]

119. Educate yourself.

I myself like to know what I am talking about so I don't look like foolish.
But maybe that is just me.

There are people on this site who spend a great deal of time and effort providing
excellent videos so that DU members are educated and informed about political topics of the day.

It would be a good idea to take a look at those videos.
The videos by ex-US military generals and CIA experts will tell you the story in detail.

HAMAS was not capable of the intelligence and military operation against Israel.
It is way above their pay grade. It was a tremendously well done operation, complicated,
well organized, planned and funded. Almost impossible to pull this off and not have the
US/Israel intelligence services know ahead of time. The operation itself was excellent.

CIA is saying that there are only a few countries which could have pulled this off.
Which countries? Take some guesses.

The propaganda was most excellent, reminds me of some of the operations in WWII.
Brilliantly done. Almost genius.

[Arazi]

171. +1 million

[cilla4progress]

179. I note you are a new poster here.

DUers typically provide a warm welcome to newbies!

Your post confirms my hypothesis that there are new posters here who are more interested in divisiveness and malcontent, than in informed, passionate discussions with a goal of finding common ground.

I wonder from whence you came and what your true purpose is here.

[Abolishinist]

185. So, what is your definition of a new poster?

Your post confirms my hypothesis that there are new posters here who are more interested in divisiveness and malcontent, than in informed, passionate discussions with a goal of finding common ground.

Diraven's Profile:
Member since: Thu Oct 15, 2020

[Abolishinist]

233. Oh, and by the way, this so-called "new poster"

has had only four (4) posts since November 2nd. MORE evidence as to their interest in "divisiveness and malcontent", right? I mean, making on average one post per week sure adds credibility to your theory, doesn't it!

[ananda]

44. I smell Putin and other autocrats behind this.

They all want us divided.

My only stable rock in this earthquake
is the Democratic party.

I will always vote for Democrats.

[Irish_Dem]

49. Some of us here on DU smelled a rat and a set up.

Biden was in a no win situation.
Either way he went, he would get a lot of pushback.

But it looks like to me that he is doing the Biden genius two step
and not falling for the bait.

Every time I underestimate Joe, he smacks me right upside the head.

[ananda]

69. Same here.

He surprised me in 2020, and he's still proving me wrong
by just being a gobsmacking genius in dealing with
every problem that comes his way!

Stay the course, Democrats!

We WILL prevail !!!!!

[Irish_Dem]

113. Yes some devious traps have been thrown on Biden.

But he just does a Harry Houdini and will not be trapped.

I knew from the beginning Joe was the only one who could lead the country
after Trump. He was smart, very experienced and had excellent political acumen.
With a kind, unifying demeanor.

But I admit, I truly underestimated him.

I should have known better. Joe's Irish family is located right down the road
from my Irish family in Ireland. In a remote, isolate part of the country.
Lovely, handsome, charming people. But truly do not get into fight with one
of them. It is a big mistake as Biden's enemies are finding out.

[Tree Lady]

144. I visited that area when I was in Ireland

for 3 months in 2919. A castle nearby with a forest and tiny fairy houses.

I stayed in a bnb behind the Catholic church Joe spoke at last time he was there.

[Irish_Dem]

213. That is so cool.

I am glad you stayed next to the church where Joe spoke.

[ananda]

188. That is way cool!

My Irish side is from Limerick, Drumcollagher.

They came here in 1849, you know why.

[Irish_Dem]

214. Same reason they all came.

They were starving.

Starving for food, freedom and basic human rights.
Denied to them for over a thousand years.

I think that is one reason Irish Americans love America so much.
They could live a life they had never lived before.

[ananda]

218. Exactly.

I was raised Irish Catholic, and as hard as it
was in some ways, it turned out to be the
best thing for me.

My Irish side was always on the right side
of life and politics, and I'm so glad I wasn't
raised by a Texas bigot.

You wouldn't believe what my mother had to
suffer here in Texas because she wasn't a
conservative protestant bigot.

But she always remained true to herself and
instilled in us good, deep values that involved
understanding and helping the poor and
oppressed.

[Irish_Dem]

222. I agree.

I had an interesting experience with all of it.

When I was about eight or nine years old I came home from Catholic
school one day and told my mother I didn't believe what the nuns were
telling me. It was all ridiculous. My mother was shocked and speechless.
She tried to argue with me about it, but didn't press it.

So from an early age I rejected Catholic dogma.
But like you I must have soaked up some of the good side of the religion.
I am a cultural Irish Catholic, not a religious one.

I think my born and raised Irish grandparents was prejudiced, but they never talked about it.
Their son, my father whatever personal feelings he might have had, he never expressed it.
But he would never tolerate any negative biased commentary from his children.
He was US career Air Force and every single person was mission critical and deserved the utmost
respect. But as Air Force kids it didn't even occur to us because we were raised in foreign cultures
and our friends represented all races, colors and creeds. When we came back to the states
we were shocked at the prejudice and narrow mindedness of most Americans.

Yes I agree the Irish side is what makes me the moral person I hope I am.
My father was first generation American and he loved this country more than he probably should have.
But for the first time in a thousand years his family was finally free of oppression and had
every opportunity in the world available to them. They were very very appreciative of it.
My father spent his life in the military, flying combat, risking his life to preserve those freedoms.

He also had that deep moral core, right vs wrong, and a strong pride of self and independence.
Doing the right thing. But never controlling our thoughts or feelings. Encouraging education and free
thinking. Once when I was a young teenager, and he was flying combat back and forth to Viet Nam,
I told him the war was wrong. He was shocked and opened his mouth to say something. But he
thought better of it and just walked away. I was in turn shocked because this was not like him.
I realized later that he respected my right to think and speak out, that is what he was fighting for.

Of course my Dad was a dyed in the wool democrat and so was I from an early age.
It means you are on the right side of life and politics, yes.

[ananda]

231. Wow.

I'm impressed.

I stopped going to church when I was about 20,
mainly because I hated the idea of heaven and
hell.

But I have always loved the mystical aspects of
Catholicism, and all the other religions as well.

It's the "one true church" moral shit that stinks.

But the mysticism is great!

[ariadne0614]

103. He surrounds himself with capable advisors who provide him with reliable information.

Then, he uses the wisdom and humility that come with age and hard-won experience to make good decisions. IMHO.

[Irish_Dem]

116. Exactly. My favorite part of Joe of course is his clear Irish side.

As I just posted elsewhere Joe's Irish family is down the road from my Irish family in Ireland.
A remote, isolated part of the country.

I know the personality quite well.
Charming, affable, handsome.

But if you start effing them over it will not be your best day.

I thought Joe might fall for the Israel/HAMAS set up thrown at him.
But he didn't. Good for him.

We shouldn't fall for it either.

[ariadne0614]

120. Plus, he's a Scorpio. Don't mess with Scorpios.

BTW, I named my only child Erin, because I love Ireland too.

[Irish_Dem]

124. Ouch, he is double trouble if you push him too far.

It takes a lot to push Joe too far. He has the milk of human kindness in his veins.
Life's tragedies made him kind, not bitter. Which says something about his character.

But once you start crossing major lines and keeping pushing it, well then
there is another side to Joe. I joke that I can hear the cussing sometimes from the White House.
I know what it sounds like.

[ariadne0614]

129. You can see it when he narrows his eyes.

They glint like steely knives.

[Irish_Dem]

132. Yes that is the really scary part.

My brother and male cousins do that.

The women in my Irish family tend to be quite outspoken, even mouthy, can you imagine?
We are brave and stand up to shit and things that are plain wrong.

So at family reunions when our brothers and male cousins start teasing us we heap
it on them right back.

But when they start squinting their eyes like Joe Biden does, even we chill and go talk
to our aunts who are shaking their heads.

[LeftInTX]

160. LOL...I thought it was age related...

As you age, you produce less tears. One way to reflexively accommodate this, is to narrow the opening of your eyes. (Reduces evaporation)

ETA: I don't think BIden's age matters. But I've noticed the eye thing. I've got Sjogren's, so I notice these things.

[Goddessartist]

140. That's true!

5x Scorpio here.

[totodeinhere]

50. I don't think that Putin has any control over Hamas

n/t

[Bev54]

59. I guess you missed the reporting of Hamas leaders meeting several times with

Putin over the last year and the training of Hamas soldiers by Wagner group in Africa.

[ShazzieB]

80. I missed that reporting, too.

Sounds like Pootie has his grubby fingers in more pies than some of us realized!

[Irish_Dem]

130. It is a sign of the pure genius of the operation that people can't see the facts.

Instant very divisive hot button reactions, tearing apart the US.
The propaganda was genius level.
Pure brilliance.

We have not seen anything like it since WWII.
That is why people don't understand what is happening.
People went straight to a highly emotional place and are stuck there.

[yardwork]

79. Why wouldn't he?

Putin is closely aligned with Iran, and Iran is aligned with Hamas.

Also, it seems likely that the top secret middle eastern intelligence documents that Trump sold to Saudi Arabia (and probably gave to Russia) is playing a role in all this. How did Hamas succeed so well in their attack?

[Irish_Dem]

126. Someone does. They could not have pulled off this operation without help.

Videos here on DU tell the story.

US CIA and military know that Hamas was not capable of such an excellent military operation.
One which was done without US/Israeli intelligence knowing about it.
The best intelligence services in the world.

The planning, organization, execution of the operation was very well funded.
Way above the HAMAS pay grade.

And the propaganda operation itself was pure genius.
Everyone in the US at each other's throats overnight.
Pure genius.

There are only a few countries which could have pulled this off?
Who are they?

[rubbersole]

96. Putin loves the international attention focused away from the Ukraine disaster.

[yardwork]

76. I see it very clearly.

[Irish_Dem]

122. I know, I don't understand why people can't see it.

From the start it was obvious.

One of the most brilliant pieces of military strategy, tactics and propaganda since WWII.

We are supposed to believe a ragtag operation was able to confound US/Israel intelligence
and pull off a very expensive, well planned, well organized military campaign?

Which also serves to divide western democracies and get Americans at each other's throats.
Propaganda genius.

At least the US military and CIA experts know what is happening. I have been watching
some of those videos.

I thank God Joe Biden is president. A lessor man would have fallen for it.

[yardwork]

153. It was inevitable.

We know for a fact that Russia interfered with the 2016 election, helping to elect Trump. Trump is a gift to billionaires and authoritarians all over the world. He's a compromised, narcissistic know-nothing who is so easily manipulated it would be laughable except it's horrible.

Why wouldn't they want to replace Biden - who is intelligent, decent and a good politician - with Trump? Every authoritarian on Earth would prefer to have the American president be Trump. Most billionaires would agree.

There's a great new propaganda tool - social media - that reaches zillions of people all at once. The human brain isn't designed to deal with this. The pandemic already isolated people into like-minded small groups. We're sitting ducks.

Part of me is detaching emotionally. I hope that somehow good wins over evil.

[Irish_Dem]

216. Yes of course. Putin is at war with the US. And he will use any tactics possible to win.

Putin's heart was broken when the USSR broke up, he blamed the US.
He was a young KGB agent and he vowed revenge. And by God he is getting his revenge.

He has been working for decades to destroy the US and with the help of the GOP he has
been quite successful. His puppets are installed in the highest levels of government and they
regularly spout Putin's talking points. Putin did so much to hurt the US.
Funded the NRA to increase violence, etc.

You can see the kind of politicians he loves to install. Stupid, uneducated, mentally ill,
drug and alcohol addicted, greedy, they make asses of themselves in public all the time.
This is to make the US look like it is full of ignorant, useless, buffoon leaders.
To diminish the US and what was once called the greatest deliberative body in the world.

Yes it is imperative that Putin replace Biden. If he can get Trump back into office,
the US funding to Ukraine will stop and Putin wins the war.

Putin must win that war.
His goal is global superpower status and to do so, he must have regional control.
He must be in charge of Europe. China's goal is to take control of the Pacific.

Yes stealing a US election was like taking candy from a baby for Putin.
He had been grooming Trump for some time. Remember Don Jr saying money
was not an issue, they could get all they wanted from Russia?

Oh yes I have detached emotionally from it to. That is part of why we can see it so clearly.
Once the emotions about it are gone, it all pops out in perfect clarity.

Yes the fight is good vs evil which is the iconic human condition isn't it?
Human's are a combination of abject evil and superb human kindness, bravery and invention.

I personally believe that the fight is what matters. The battle for good and evil will always
be with us. Utopia is for heaven. What counts is can we fight the good fight.
Almost all of my posts are about that figiting the good fight, standing up for right,
speaking out against wrong doing.

[treestar]

77. Not in possession of that power

Russia maybe.

[Irish_Dem]

131. CIA says only a few countries could have organized and funded this operation.

I saw a video with John Brennan, ex CIA director.
He said it had to be funded by one of just a few countries.
He didn't name the countries.

But we are smart enough to make a list.
Yes Russia is on the list.
Who else?

[treestar]

167. China

Iran, maybe?

[Irish_Dem]

215. Yes indeed. But which country has its fingerprints all over it?

Look at the attack, the war, the propaganda, it tells us the answer.

Which country is desperate to divide the US?
To drag the US into another conflict?
To stop funding for the Ukraine War?

Which leader wants to accuse the western democracies of committing all the
same crimes he is committing?

To make a very big issue about the morality of a democracy fighting a war?
And to showcase a democratic country as evil, killing women and children.
To make sure the rape, torture of women and children is the first thing that comes out
to the public? Knowing it will certainly press Joe Biden's buttons and hoping Joe will overreact?

It is Russian, and Iran is also helping.
China I am not sure about. They are in shock about how badly Putin's invasion went.
And they are overwhelmed right now with internal problems.

[yardwork]

220. Both are in cahoots with Russia right now.

China and Russia are dividing the globe, and Iran is closely aligned with both Russia and Hamas.

Don't forget the intelligence documents that Trump gave to foreign actors.

[sop]

138. Wasn't that bin Laden's ultimate objective when al qaeda brought down the Twin Towers?

To shock all Americans, stir up anti-Muslim hysteria, incite calls for vengeance and retribution, create widespread support for a strong military response, produce a backlash among muslims throughout the Middle East to whip up even greater anti-Western sentiments, which would then lead to further acts of violence and terrorism?

[KPN]

5. There is a level of ugliness I haven't seen here before for sure.

It does bother and make me question some things. I don’t expect total uniformity, but this division is quite surprising and challenges my general perceptions of DU/DUers.

[Paladin]

17. Still not as bad as 2016, in my opinion.

So far, anyway.

[womanofthehills]

53. I think its definitely worse

just my opinion

In the past, I would tell friends to join. Definitely not now. It's become an angry place.

[sop]

139. Bloodthirsty would be more accurate.

[Goddessartist]

141. Agree. I've never seen it quite like this.

[Tree Lady]

145. I agree but I think it's because

I haven't picked a side like I sort of was then.

[hlthe2b]

20. I've been here since 2001--lots of divisive times, especially during primaries, but

I can not ever remember a time when DUers who have been here and interacted with each other for years and clearly seemed to like each other would suddenly jump to the most negative conclusions about any and all things said on the issue. There was always a "well on this, we agree to disagree" kind of attitude, but now more often comments are taken out of context with zero benefit-of-the-doubt whatsoever and an immediate determination made based on that as to whether you are on their side or "one of the others." Once that conclusion is made, the relegation to "enemy" status seems to quickly follow.

That said, I do have hopes that we can get past this if there are enough who will recognize what is happening--who are genuinely not extremists in viewpoints and can try to bridge a bit. The first week was the worst with quite a few using the issue to incite. I think the worst offenders are gone now.

We'll get through this. But we have to bridge our voters too and that is an even bigger challenge. It won't happen with misinformation and that is rising in real time. We all have to fight back on that.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

51. It's the accusation based on inference and extrapolation that bugs me

So many comments do not respond to what's said, but instead respond to a worst-case reading between the lines -- the zero benefit of the doubt you mention.

If I express horror at the death and destruction that innocent Palestinians are suffering, it does not mean or even imply that I think Israel has no right to defend itself from terrorists like Hamas.

If I am of the opinion that Netanyahu's policies concerning Gaza and the West Bank have been cruel, it does not mean that I blame the victim, Israel, for the terrorist attack Israel suffered.

It is a strange time, indeed, when I agree with Moscow Mitch that Hamas needs to be wiped from the face of the Earth, but that's the way it is.

There are still people in the world who want to finish Hitler's Final Solution. Hamas is organized for such a purpose and funded by such people. Nobody has tried to exterminate me and my people, so I don't know what it's like to live under that threat. It's a reason to grant leeway in discourse, at the very least.

People who are angry about the deaths of innocent Palestinians are not necessarily victims of Hamas propaganda and antisemitic. People who want Hamas eliminated are not necessarily insensitive to the suffering of the innocent or advocating carte blanche to Netanyahu.

Hope some of that is at least coherent. Hope DUers can be more tolerant of each other during horrific and heated times.

[hlthe2b]

71. I don't know what it will take, but the slinging of accusations back and forth among DUers

--even when it is clear that neither party really knows the positions or beliefs of the other-- has taken hold. I don't know what it will take to stop it, but I understand why EarlG may not want to intercede. Nor could I really suggest how to craft a policy or rule to get us past this. Maybe time will heal...

[tom_kelly]

86. One of the things that bother me

is when some folks respond to a post by beginning with "so, you're saying..."

[Hermit-The-Prog]

88. That catches the essence of it

There is a lot of interpretation rather than examination.

If you say, "I don't like blue potatoes", it's not really reasonable of me to respond with, "So, you're saying blue is an evil thing?"

Multiple points of view can help in understanding a situation, but only if we don't distort those points of view to fit preconceived notions.

[Think. Again.]

114. I use "so, you're saying..."

...when replying to a post that seems deliberately obtuse.

A few posters have tried to hide the malicious meaning of their statements behind an acceptable sentence, and because I can't be sure of my interpretation of their post, I do try to rephrase it, in the hope they will either re-iterate their meaning or refute my interpretation.

In any case, it is always an attempt to clarify meaning that some posters seem to be trying to camoflage, or simply aren't making clear.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

147. Asking for clarification seems less confrontational to me.

[Think. Again.]

194. Yep, I do that too...

...I didn't realize framing a request to clarify by simply presenting how I understood their statement, thereby offering the opportunity for them to clarify, or expand on their point, or even to fully deny my interpretation of it, was seen as confrontational.

I'll keep that in mind from now on though, thanks.

[Prairie Gates]

137. The one that surprises me is ending some horrible accusation with "Not surprised, though"

Oh man!

[Texasgal]

87. Personally, as this situation

started to unfold, I made a conscious decision to not comment my thoughts or opinions on this issue. In retrospect, I am glad I made this decision, it's become very divisive and nasty here as of late.

I've been a silent reader, occasionally recommending some posts. But prefer to stay out of the fray.

[hlthe2b]

100. I have struggled with that same thought but there is something about seeing some comments

that are truly false or reprehensible or even dangerous to one group or another on DU or elsewhere "go unanswered," that is very difficult. But even more, when I see people I really really have enjoyed and respect say the most unexpected things and lash out repeatedly at seemingly innocent (or misunderstood) comments from one DUer or another in a manner that doesn't even seem like the same person, I keep thinking if I try to gently redirect them that the poster I remember will "return."

But yes, I've adopted your approach more and more. Sadly, that doesn't work for all and the combative climate is driving away many others. As a result, I am not sure DU (like the country) will ever be the same. sigh...

[KPN]

168. Staying quiet does have its benefits ... and costs. I think of how much has become

normalized by a media that has remained relatively quiet in the face of Trump and MAGA the past 7 or 8 years now. The costs pile up.

[Easterncedar]

83. It's Russian and Korean and unaffiliated trolls

They don’t need a plan or allies. The goal is to sow chaos.

[KPN]

169. Trolls do take advantage of cracks in the wall. But there's also much more to this specific division than

trolls.

[Easterncedar]

191. Yes indeed. But we need to hold together

The future needs us, despite our legitimate differences.

[claudette]

102. You're right

Lots of ugliness towards those who decry the destruction of Gaza and murder of so many innocent Palestinians there - even when it is acknowledged that what Hamas did was atrocious and they need to be stopped. It's the METHOD of stopping them that is concerning.

[Crunchy Frog]

112. It's always been there in the I/P forum. It's just that it's now a huge global story, and so

it's all being splashed all over GD.

There's a reason why I/P discussions aren't normally allowed outside of its own special forum.

[Hekate]

8. I hear you, Cilla

This is very ugly indeed

[MorbidButterflyTat]

9. Right there with you.

I never thought I'd see such hate here, except the deserved hate for Slobby.

It's been ugly here. Too harmful for mental and emotional health. Sad. I thought this was a refuge.

[marybourg]

52. We would all like it to be a refuge, where people

generally agree with *us*. But then we read posts where people not only *don’t* agree with us, but call people like us ugly names and seem amazed that there are people who don’t agree with *them*. What are we to do about this?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

65. I don't know.

I will do my part to be more aware, and maybe stick to lighter topics. My mental and emotional well being demand it (and I would imagine others' do, too).

Peace.

[elocs]

11. Just when the GOP is imploding, leave it to the Left to fracture and pull itself apart.

Yes, trying to unite Democrats is like herding cats. As far as DU goes, I just post here and don't consider myself a DUer.
I'm with Groucho...I don't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.

[Pathwalker]

13. +1. I feel the same way

K&R

[Disaffected]

14. Indeed. Too many ridged and polarized

opinions & beliefs. Too much jumping to conclusions based on questionable or scant evidence.

Too many cheap shots and too little tolerance for differing views.

OTOH, a lot of intelligent and thoughtful posts and, a good source of latest news IMO i.e. more + than -.

[cilla4progress]

19. It doesn't feel like a community.

I wonder how much is trolls....

Heading over to Post.

[hadEnuf]

36. There are plenty of subtle and not so subtle troll posts lately.

Seems to be an increase with the new DU4 too. Or maybe that's just me....

[Bettie]

125. Lots of people who joined in October in

certain topics.

[BComplex]

21. I just "trash" every thread that discusses the issue, so I won't be

tempted to comment and get verbally mauled and "alerted" on. I do read the original post of most of the Israel/Palestine threads with the hope that something good can come from an actual discussion, but so far, it hasn't been possible.

That said: there are also people on this site that are doubling down on snark and sarcasm in reply to even the most innocent post, and I feel that it is part of an effort by bad actors to drive people off of DU. There are nowhere near the number of posts that I used to see here, so I guess it's working in part.

The bad guys have definitely doubled down. Don't leave DU! Just study how things are working, and figure out how to work around it.

[orleans]

26. i don't trash those threads, but i don't post on them--don't want to get my ass kicked

by one side or the other so i'm like "fuck it" and don't have anything to do with those threads--i won't even read them

[MorbidButterflyTat]

39. I've noticed that, too.

"There are nowhere near the number of posts that I used to see here..."

I wondered if the switch to the new DU formatting scared some people off. It seemed to happen about the same time, but I could be mistaken.

I've definitely noticed a difference, tho.

[womanofthehills]

57. I'm sure it's the fighting, not the formatting

It's getting just to ugly.

[Crunchy Frog]

123. I've put a whole lot of people on ignore, and I almost never post on the subject.

In fact, I haven't been posting very much at all lately. I've only actually trashed a small number of threads, but I'm sure that it's easier to miss the really bad ones with so many on ignore.

[Tree Lady]

149. I have noticed that also less posts

To be honest I don't read the ones on this latest war. I hate all wars.

I zoom twice a week with a group that has nothing to do with Isreal but the leader happens to live in Jerusalum so I have learned a tiny bit.

[twodogsbarking]

22. Networks call people held by Istael "prisoners" but those held by Hamas "hostages".

[former9thward]

24. Israel arrested those people for criminal acts.

Hamas committed a criminal act when they kidnapped those hostages. There is a difference....

[twodogsbarking]

29. They were women and teenagers according to NBC. Thanks for you comment but I

am not as convinced as you are. There is a difference.

[former9thward]

31. Women don't commit terrorist acts?

Who knew? The "children" are mostly late age teenagers who have attacked Israeli citizen and troops. You don't think it is possible for teenagers to commit criminal acts?

[LeftInTX]

62. 18 year olds with lots of weapon and incendiary device charges.

Most of those crimes would bump up to adult
Women with attempted murder charges.

[twodogsbarking]

104. You seem to believe the news more than I.

[LeftInTX]

158. It's not news, it's a list from the Israeli govt of prisoners to be released.

You can read the list yourself.

Hamas is not interested in "human rights" violations prisoners.

It wants Hamas prisoners back.

Do you think Hamas is a human's right group?

[twodogsbarking]

170. All your words not mine.

[Happy Hoosier]

166. So if you don't like it, "fake news?"

Now where have I heard that before?

[twodogsbarking]

172. Name calling becomes you.

[Happy Hoosier]

174. I didn't call you a name...

I’m pointing out that rejecting a news story you don’t like without some actual evidence to counter it is a complete bullshit argument.

[twodogsbarking]

175. Where have I heard that before?

[ProfessorGAC]

200. In One Of Your Prior Posts?

Sure seems that way.

[twodogsbarking]

202. My point is that the news is slanted. If you choose to believe otherwise so be it. Condescending comments are always up

to the commenter. Sure seems that way.

[Ms. Toad]

196. 3000 of the 8300 are being held under an administrative detention -

meaning no charges, no legal process.

Of those charged, among the most common are for throwing rocks and "harming regional security," hardly crimes that would bump up to adult charges. And no one charged with murder is being released. https://abc7chicago.com/how-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails-hostages-released-israel-palestine/14099619/

[LeftInTX]

198. Here is the actual list of 300 to be released from the Govt of Israel. Prison ID's, date of arrest and everything.

https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0

I believe Hamas had a say in the list.

Throwing rocks over there is more than just throwing rocks over here. It's a weaponry of sorts.





Yes, the majority have not been sentenced or even have hearings scheduled. Most have been arrested within the past year. The exception are the women who have been sentenced.

[duhneece]

136. 3,000 Palestinians are held in 'Administrative Detention'

That means that they don’t know what charges they are facing; it also means that there is no legal remedies for 3,000 Palestinians.

[FHRRK]

25. Anyone taken by Hamas on the 7th

Are hostages, even military personnel.

Arguments about prisoners, somewhat see the point assuming the person was just picked up and indefinitely held.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

41. Yup

When a right wing dictatorship makes the laws, they'll decide who's a criminal.

[ShazzieB]

70. Sorry, i dont understand this comment.

When a right wing dictatorship makes the laws, they'll decide who's a criminal.

What "right wing dictatorship" are you talking about? I'm just a little confused, because you are using terms ("right wing" and dictatorship" ) that have very specific meanings, and I don’t think this terminology really applies to the Israeli-Hamas conflict, in the way that I think you meant.

The Israeli form of government is a parliamentary democracy. It is admittedly a flawed democracy (just as ours is flawed), but there are free elections and no one has been permanently installed as a dictator. The current government is right wing at the moment, but that's because a right wing party won the most recent election. It can always swing a different way next time (or not, but it's not set in stone).

I can understand disagreeing with some of the policies of the Israel government (I disagree with some of them myself), but calling it a "right wing dictatorship" is factually inaccurate and misleading. Using inaccurate terminology muddies the very complex and deep-rooted issues that underlie the current situation and does not contribute to the conversation in any useful way, imo.

[paleotn]

142. Um. you do realize Israel has free and fair elections.

You may not like the current government in Tel Aviv, I certainly don't, but dictatorship is a bit strong don't you think? The hyperbole isn't helpful and leads some to wonder about the motivation. And to the OP's point, off we go to ugliness.

[EX500rider]

150. Yes, Hamas does do that

[LeftInTX]

165. So does Lebanon

Palestinian Israeli citizens have the same rights as Israeli citizens. (Except they cannot be dual citizens)
Palestinian refugees do not. However, Israel limits the number of Palestinian citizens.

So does Lebanon. Lebanon was established as a Christian majority nation. It is now a 60% Muslim majority nation. (The muslims are about evenly Sunni and Shia) Refugees are Sunnis. Hence, they will stay refugees because Lebanon has rules about Maronites, Sunnis, Shia, Armenians and Druze.

Palestinian refugees are treated worse in Lebanon than they are in Israel. They live in shacks and are not allowed to build either.


https://imemc.org/article/plot-to-depopulate-palestinian-refugee-camps-in-lebanon/

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/415610_LEBANON-2022-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon In one of his series of articles accusing the government of Lebanon of practising "apartheid" against the resident Palestinian community, Toameh described the "special legal status" as "foreigners" assigned uniquely to Palestinians, "a fact which has deprived them of health care, social services, property ownership and education. Even worse, Lebanese law bans Palestinians from working in many jobs. This means that Palestinians cannot work in the public services and institutions run by the government such as schools and hospitals. Unlike Israel, Lebanese public hospitals do not admit Palestinians for medical treatment or surgery."[31] Journalist Ben-Dror Yemini describes Palestinians in Lebanon as living "under various restrictions that could fill a chapter on Arab apartheid against the Palestinians. One of the most severe restrictions is a ban on construction. This ban is enforced even in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, bombed by the Lebanese army in 2007.[32] Calling on Lebanon to change the systematic discrimination against his people, Palestinian journalist Rami George Khouri compared Lebanese treatment of Palestinians to the "Apartheid system" of South Africa.[33]

_________________

Don't get me started on Syria.....

[NotVeryImportant]

68. The Establishment Western media does this

Nowhere else.

[twodogsbarking]

105. Thanks so much. You should come here more often. Peace to all.

[LeftInTX]

173. Not even al-jazeera calls Palestinian prisoners "hostages"

The justice system for Palestinian refugees sucks, but they aren't hostages. They are not treated equally.
However, Israel does not engage in extortion for prisoner release.

The Israeli military court system for the occupied territories, modeled partially on the British military court system set up in 1937,[6] was established in 1967, and had been called the institutional centerpiece of the occupation, and within it West Bank Palestinians are treated as "foreign civilians".[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

In 2018, one member of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad was arrested for violating the blockade with his boat. . He was released after a few months. I think Israel was mostly concerned that he had nefarious intentions. When he was released, the PIJ had a parade for him.


Israel also released 1,027 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for one hostage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange


To call them Palestinians hostages is a bit of hyperbole....

We have a similar system in the US for many African-Americans.
Hamas calls them "hostages", but Hamas is a terrorist group. It wants everyone released because they want their terrorists back. That's what Assad did when western powers threatened to take him out over his treatment of civilians. So, he purposely released a bunch of prisoners and they joined ISIS. "You think I'm trouble. I'll show you trouble"

Eventually western powers decided they preferred Assad over ISIS, so the dictator remains in power.

[SocialDemocrat61]

23. Unfortunately

There seems to be a handful who are going out of their way to stoke division here. Best to just block them.

[Biophilic]

27. I spend a lot less time on DU than I used to.

Partly it’s the new format that I still haven’t gotten comfortable with. More importantly it’s because I refuse to click on anything that has to do with the Israel and Hamas, the protests regarding same, etc because each one ends up with some sort of nasty interaction between people posting. Plus all the news and many of the posts feel pushed, contrived as if the goal is to create more anger and conflict.
At this point I don’t know what to do about that so I’ve decided to back off my reading and interaction. Yeah, that makes me almost as sad as I feel about the conflict itself.

[walkingman]

28. Everyone has a right to their opinion - not a big deal.

[bucolic_frolic]

30. It cannot be allowed to become an overarching issue that smothers our freedoms and civil rights issues

American voters on both sides of the issue should not eject Biden because of them.

[Basic LA]

32. It's been a shock, all right.

Here we were, seemingly all liberals, and this gruesome attack suddenly transformed half the crew into Gen. Curtis LeMay. And it reopened old wounds that can never heal. So we attacked each other (for the most part, with many earnest exceptions).

[pnwmom]

34. We have to push through anyway. Ruth Marcus wrote today about how even her Jewish family

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2023, 10:11 PM - Edit history (2)

is divided about this, with most of the division along generational lines.

We are a family here, and we have to keep listening to each other.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/21/israel-palestine-hamas-thanksgiving/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAwODAyMDAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzAyMTg0Mzk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDA4MDIwMDAsImp0aSI6IjgwMzhkYmZkLTZkOWEtNGIyNy1iMTlmLTMwNjM0OWU2ZWI4YSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9ucy8yMDIzLzExLzIxL2lzcmFlbC1wYWxlc3RpbmUtaGFtYXMtdGhhbmtzZ2l2aW5nLyJ9.iNUg73GHOzO4CyQz7ZeEjpU3PKNiV6rxTSCaImUHe3g&fbclid=IwAR0aMf-IiLGtVekh6kONI7_rEiYua2pGW2riVH2j6WbAlcQskt-KxoE6mZg

My children grew up in a different environment — more honest about the contours of the conflict, more complex in the nature of the political discussion, and more fraught. They have scarcely known an Israel without Netanyahu, which is to say an Israel whose aggressive settlement policy that has made a two-state solution increasingly unattainable, and an Israel that fails to treat Palestinians with fairness and dignity.

It is, in short, an Israel that has made itself hard to love. My love for Israel is strong enough to survive my exasperation with the policies of its current government. It might be unrealistic to expect the same of my daughters. It is hard to demand that Israel constitute a central part of their Jewish identity when Israel’s behavior, during their conscious lifetimes, has been so impossible to defend.

So, we confront the events of Oct. 7 and its terrible aftermath, including the bloodshed in Gaza, from different baselines, clashing perspectives that have generated painful conversations, and tears on both sides.

[Goddessartist]

146. Thank you for this, pnwmom!

My Jewish in laws are not divided on this - they call Israel's actions genocide. My 97 year old mil called us weeping over Israel's actions, weeping for the Palestinians. Her 5 children and her grandchildren all agree. A military solution is not possible.

[BaronChocula]

35. Cooler heads will prevail over time

And there are plenty here. Don't give up.

[Arthur_Frain]

37. My life here is less contentious

For the few minutes I spend trashing every thread related to the Middle East.

You might try it, the trash button is better than the ignore button actually.

[SpankMe]

38. I agree wholeheartedly

By the third post on any Hamas-Israel discussion, the snarky, accusatory, indignant, I'm-absolutely-right-and-you're-a-total-Jew/Arab-hater comments start up.

It's especially bad for for anyone who's in general support of relief for Palestinians or opposed to a specific Israeli policy.

One can be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians without being pro-Hamas. One can criticize a particular Israeli policy without being anti-Semitic. Not on DU as of late, though.

I no longer click on any Hamas-Israel discussions. If I click on a discussion that degrades into a virulent, absolutist, door-slamming bitch-fest, I take a few minutes to put posters who make these comments on my ignore list. I just can't stand it any more.

[demmiblue]

40. I put a handful on ignore...

DU is back to some normalcy. I am not going get sucked into their attempts to divide us here (I DO think that is their intention). It is amazing how much discord is caused by just a few people.

[crim son]

43. If we are divided, it is because it is not a black and white situation.

Not being permitted to share one's valid perspective without being deemed "wilfully ignorant" is not part of the solution. We are, for the most part, a smart and informed group. If we are divided, maybe the issue is not so freaking simple as some would like to believe.

[Kennah]

46. In asking "what hope is there for the world?" you've probably asked what most of us are thinking

[barbtries]

47. i'm laying low.

this has always been such a validating space. I hope you stick around though. but I feel you on this.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

64. I've always appreciated your posts.

[brush]

48. I'm feeling the same way. The Hamas/Israeli war is so obviously...

an issue that we should be impartial on and in favor of an elimination of Hamas, end to the violence/killing, especially the horrendous air strikes on civilian housing in Gaza.

There's so much anti-Semitism and Islamophobia here it's disheartening and disappointing to me as I once thought the majority of DUers were enlightened, fair-minded progressives.

[TeamProg]

66. I think that you just called anyone's OBJECTIONS to Israel's POLITICAL motiviations "anti-Semitism".

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the very problem that brings us to no answers.

I couldn't care LESS about who worships who, all I know is that Bibi's policies do not follow international law.
Isreali settlers are admittedly invading land promised to Palestinians by international law.

[brush]

84. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.

I'm for impartiality and against anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

[Think. Again.]

118. There is a major difference between...

...anti-semitism (which focuses on the Jewish people and culture) and critique of Israeli political and military actions.

There is also a major difference between Islamaphobia (which focuses on Islamic people and culture) and critique of hamas' political and terrorist actions.

[brush]

164. Define anti-Semitism and Islamophobia however you want. I'm still against discrimination against both Muslims and Jews.

IMO you're making an issue out of something that isn't there. My OP is about impartiality. There is no anti-Semitism or Islamophobia on my end.

[Think. Again.]

195. If I misread your post, I apologize...

...you jumped directly from speaking about being anti-hamas into speaking about antisemitism and islamaphobia, I thought you were treating it all as one subject and simply wanted to point out the difference.

[brush]

210. I don't see how you made that mistake (I wanted it clear my feelings on Hamas) but your apology is accepted.

[LeftInTX]

178. Your posts have been balanced..

I don't trust either side in this war.
It needs to be looked at objectively.
Palestinians have a had a horribly raw deal in violation of human rights imposed by Israel since 1967
However, Hamas running the show is also a violation of human rights.

Much work needs to be done.
I hope this is a wake up call for Israel.
However, I don't feel that the Oct 7th attacks had anything to do with Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

I feel that Hamas is the result of it and everything should have been done to prevent a group like Hamas from controlling the lives of Gazans.

Israel chose to disengage from Gaza. This created a destabilizing situation. (They disengaged because Israeli settlers were subject to terrorist attacks and it was becoming a hassle for Israel. The Israeli population wasn't very large)

I hate to say it, but the occupation of Gaza may have prevented Hamas from taking over. Instead of just walking away, lsrael should have gradually supported/implemented a two-state solution, but never did. It should have facilitated a transitional govt. (We have implemented similar programs in post-war Japan and Germany) I support a two-state solution, but a change will need to come gradually or it will become another ISIS.

[hunter]

54. Auto-trash by keyword is my friend.

[marble falls]

55. It absolutely breaks my heart. I am shocked by some of the extremist cant from both ends.

[TeamProg]

56. "They've" ??? Who are "they"? We? We all have our differences. It's how settle them that makes us

"we".

"We" don't make violent threats.
"We" use logic, our intelligence and patience to overcome adversary.

Yes, there is too much "I told ya so" here at DU, but life goes on.

"They" are a load of B.S.

[CommonOkie]

58. Member for awhile never commented

I do not care for either or both sides lie and manipulate.

[Sympthsical]

60. At least the flood of astroturfing is fun

Last edited Sat Nov 25, 2023, 12:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Just slidin on in spamming anti-Israel content everywhere.

Well, astroturfing and 30 Gazan doctor’s.

[Hekate]

99. Well-spotted

[AZSkiffyGeek]

155. Doctor's - get it right

[Sympthsical]

156. Edited, sorry

Sorry, everyone!

[Cha]

61. THANK YOU MIRT.... I'm seeing a lot of

Trolls Get Whacked. That's Encouraging!!!

So Yeah I'm staying.

[Enoki33]

63. Seems to me there are many members

here who have repeatedly posted that the animosity has been created and stoked by trolls who are arms of Putin's propaganda machine. Posters who disregard this are unwitting pawns in the geopolitical game. Democrats have way too much in common for the divisive architects to succeed. Just my two cents.

[usonian]

73. I have a VERY long block list.

First, flame wars here or anywhere else do no good.

Second: Watch Joe Biden. He is acting on his conscience and commitments.

Third: I used to have pretty radical ideas when I was younger, I still do! but I have seen that wars are destructive to everyone, and won't end until people collectively grow up. No one life is less precious than another. No life has a "price" nor does a "body count" greater than zero have any validity. War is an addiction, and the entire freaking world needs rehab. Like many science fiction movies, we grow up or grow extinct.

[lildDemz]

74. Intolerant Religions

started and keeps this battle going, year after year. I leave them alone.

[treestar]

75. Some issues are not liberal b conservative.

Not every liberal agrees on everything either.

There would not be much to discuss with total agreement.

[moniss]

78. In all honesty my impression is that

the last weeks since 10/7 have been somewhat lower in vitriol and division than in 2016. The whole Bernie/Hillary thing was ghastly to me because if someone simply wanted to discuss a policy or strategy issue from one camp or the other any sort of reasoned discussion devolved almost instantly to accusations of being Bernie Bros or being DLC. If you just wanted to discuss the policy or strategy strengths, weaknesses, alternatives etc. it got pretty tough to get people to engage in conversation on that level rather than a Bernie versus Hillary thing.

[brooklynite]

81. Who is the "they" who have contrived an issue to divide us?

Events happen. Perhaps the divisions are reflective of different backgrounds and perspectives.

[Abolishinist]

90. I was about to ask the same.

Who are these enigmatic entities who have conspired against the lockstep "us"?

I demand names!

[Raine]

97. I was wondering who "they" are too. nt

[NewHendoLib]

82. This is one of those really trying times, with emotions and opinions running really hot.

I can't presume to have deep knowledge on an incredibly complex topic of such longevity - I am doing much more reading than reacting or posting. It is a good time to give DUers a wide berth. I don't expect that the strong views, emotions and opinions WON'T leak into DU.

[FM123]

85. Yep. It feels a lil different now.

I'm not here as much as I used to be, sometimes it feels like I am posting on eggshells...

[SYFROYH]

89. I, for one, still love you all. Really.

I have my opinions and I don't like everything I read here, but this heightened I/P violence doesn't make me want to leave DU. Quite the opposite. It's times like these that I really on DU.

[Warpy]

91. I've noped out of most of those threads pretty quickly

because they turn toxic pretty quickly.

IRC made it my least favorite subject.in pol chats on IRC and elsewhere.

[Patton French]

94. I hear ya. NT

[Patton French]

95. Because this is a robust community

I don’t get some of the posters that always criticize one group over another, but I truly believe we’re all compassionate people.

[moniss]

128. A very thoughtful post

and I often think that we're not too far from a time when we will hear some people in the world talking about needing to "destroy the village in order to save it".

[RainWalker]

133. This.

Plus there's a clear divide between progressive dems and conservative dems on the Middle East issue plus numerous other American issues. Progressives are more inclined to give Palestine and a 2-state solution attention and more inclined to note that Netanyahu is a criminal whereas the conservative dems seem more inclined to assume Israel can do no wrong and think that any openness to anything pro-Palestine is somehow an attack on Biden

Bingo.
There's definitely a huge divide here and some of the responses on anything I post are just downright nasty. I fear that we've forgotten how to discuss things like adults and are going zero to ballistic in a nanosecond. I try to be as kind as I can and not argue because that solves nothing.

Great post! Thank you.

[Goddessartist]

148. Yes!

Excellent summary!

[claudette]

101. That's not the only issue here

Just ignore those posts if it bothers you. What bothers me is that one word defending the innocent Palestinians dying is considered to be cheering for Hamas. THAT is what makes the issue so divisive.

[Earth-shine]

111. Time for a cease fire.

If they can do it, so can we.

[mopinko]

115. it's a surprise, cuz it's been kept in it's own forum. this has always been here.

as a former mod, i can tell u that we very, very often moved threads from gd to i/p forum.
pretty sure that’s the main reason those side forums were created. that and guns. cuz every time something happened over there, the place went ape shit.

i can also assure folks that not everyone here is who they seem to b. we’re big enough to be a target, and have been for a long time.

[Marthe48]

117. I have Jewish friends, I have Palestinian friends

I know how my friends feel about the situation. I haven't and I'm not going to discuss the events in the Middle east, out of respect for the people who are much closer to the countries that are once again torn apart by violence.

Someone posted on DU that we should be against war, and I saw at least one sarcastic reply about the post. I've always been against war. I'm also against the grinding anxiety every human who watches news feels every single day because of the ceaseless threats, aggressive action by one faction of humans against another, and the death that is preventable, if only humans would share what we have and what we need. But it isn't like that and it won't be like that.

I am a member of DU, and plan to remain a member. To make it a pleasant experience, I have a few guidelines I follow. If I don't like a post, I'll scroll on by. If I don't agree with a post, I don't feel the need to reply. I'm here for a shared experience with a like-mined group of people, why argue over things we're basically in agreement with? Finally, if I am not informed about a post, I try to get more information in case I do decide to reply.

The other day, there was a terrible accident on The Rainbow Bridge. I made a comment right after the news broke, that in case it was an act of terrorism, thankful that the border patrol was alert. Updates revealed that it was an accident, not terrorism. I had the insight that like every other event not in my immediate view, I don't know what's going on, and until I do, I'll wait to comment.

I do think that what we see on the news is manipulated, either the raw information, or the way it is presented to us as news. To stay sane, I think of weather reports. If the weather reporter says the sky is blue, that is a fact. If the weather reporter says that it might rain later, that is speculation. I keep that in mind as I see, hear or read news, and that helps me avoid presenting my opinion as a fact, or taking someone's post as a fact, not an opinion. We are all entitled to an opinion, and even if we don't agree, we should do our best to respect an opinion. Knowing that people are dying in horrible ways as we write posts doesn't make easy to refrain from blasting others, but as we watch the new horrors in the world unfold, let's all try to remember, we are on the side that is trying to improve the relations between people, even when the people hate each others' very existence.

[Ferrets are Cool]

121. It is certainly the most divisive subject that I've ever seen here...

but I will not let it change how much I love this place.

[NCIndie]

127. You think DU is a bellwether for world peace?

It is a poor representation of the Democratic Party.

The world is a mess, but none of the problems are solved here.

[634-5789]

134. Can't get involved. We have our own problems, and the burden of World problems is staggering

[peacebuzzard]

135. I have not been able to tune in lately for various reasons,

my life got really insane lately and has me sleeping poorly, going to several doctors etc. This time of year is always stressful on its own so with other taxing issues I had to cut short many of my leisure activities like posting here...and so I missed all the explosive confrontations you are describing in this post. I can only hope we can all reconcile on this issue, if possible or at least try not to poke around and rekindle flames. There is much to be said about taking a break and just sit down for a minute. Peaceout.

[Trueblue Texan]

143. Issues from that nexus tends to always divide. Hang in there. nt

[Marcus IM]

151. DU is not the center of the nation nor the universe.

It is an fair indicator of the divisions within the Dem voter constituency.

Divide and conquer via radicalization is how wars and politics works.

Ukraine didn't work.

Perhaps the I/P conflict will.

I mean, after reading the range of posts here on that subject, it has become clear.

[CincyDem]

157. No...it won't.

There is no issue that can separate me from my commitment to democracy in America.

I have been a vocal support of Israel and will continue to be.

And if Joe makes decisions I disagree with re:Israel…so be it…he’s my guy anyway. And it won’t be lukewarm, hold my nose and vote kind of support. It’ll be the visible, vocal support I gave BHO, HRC, and JRB over that past 15 years.

I am confident that I speak for many when I say there is no individual issue, no matter what side we’re on, that overshadows our commitment to the principle of democracy.

We may argue like family at the kitchen table but nothing gets in the way of voting for democrats…for every office on the ballot.

[Firestorm49]

152. Don't take it so seriously. The issues are alienating

but just that - opinions. Take them or leave them but realize that even among a group such as this that differences of opinion are the basis of discussion. I take it all with a grain of salt. You can expect certain positions from those whose names are well known. Some I agree with and others I don’t, but thats no need to feel alienated. It’s just like asking somebody, who makes the best pizza in town or who was the greatest band ever. You may not agree with them but you just brush it off.
In our country there are serious problems that need to be addressed. We need to offer meaningful suggestions but not feel hurt or go to war over the fact that inevitably others may disagree.

[SCantiGOP]

159. I think most on DU agree

You can advocate for the innocent civilians of Gaza and not be anti-Semitic.
You can advocate for the defeat of Hamas and not be anti-Palestinian.
Those who reject one of those two positions are the ones who will find hurt feelings and arguments from their fellow DU residents.

[mamacita75]

162. Driving division

is the purpose of this extended attack on our nation. I have studied it as it has progressed. I survive by keeping myself informed and following it closely. Thinking back during the W. Bush years...has it been accelerated since! There have been agitators here since I first found DU. I would not want to lose this community that has prevailed for decades.

We are in a fight between autocracy and democracy. Most of us want to progress forward. I appreciate you cilla4progress.

[msfiddlestix]

163. surely you recall during Bush Regime this topic was quite prominent in terms of posts and division.

With the exception of one or two posts I have avoided engaging at all on this topic here.
Actually I have been largely avoiding discussing it with friends, even if they share the same view of the situation as I do.
In fact, I avoid even thinking about it. It's beyond depressing and eff all I can do anything, which is even more depressing.
It's depressing because I care deeply.

Then I remind myself this has been going for over 2000 years and it's root based on religion and race.

It's never going to end, they'll be brief pauses.

But until their end goals are achieved, it will continue.
There are other issues that matter which we can have effect.
Maybe take some measure of solace and put the ME subject on ignore.

[Jacob2]

176. Maybe They Should Bring Back The "Ask The Administrators Forum" ?

Otherwise you might be seen as "bitching" about DU.

Which might earn you an alert.

Ask The Administrators solved that problem for people with valid concerns about the site.

[twodogsbarking]

177. It seems to be a religious war. Am I wrong? You can tell me and insult me if you like.

[BannonsLiver]

180. Is it because of all the latent antisemites?

[dembotoz]

182. keep an eye on the prize..the destruction of trump and all things gop

[LonePirate]

183. Too many have bought into the nonsense that Biden/US/DC Dems have advocated for genocide which is bullshit

To me, it seems that some people actually believe Israel should have not retaliated against Hamas for the attacks back in October. There is no one anywhere who could have prevented Israel from returning fire and escalating the conflict; yet Israel and its allies are receiving the bulk of the scorn and the criticism

Another thing that seems to be glossed over - and please feel free to correct me here - is that the average Palestinian is more supportive of Hamas than they are supportive of Israel thus are they not helping the resolve the conflict. That beast needs to be fought from within and it is not. Yes, Israel needs to stop building on Palestinian lands and they need to be more mindful of their military targets; but the timeless animosity between Israel and Palestine does not have any easy solutions. It’s even worse when the propaganda machine is working full-time for Hamas and Palestine.

[soldierant]

184. If a nation, all of its people, can be defined by the

attitutde and actions of its leader, what does that make all of us who lived through the Trump** administration?

I keep telling myself that I guess I need to keep telling more people other than myself.

[SoFlaBro]

192. Some posters are getting VERY sensitive about everything posted here. Someone tried to give me a hard time for the term

"sweaty terrorist" Saying that's racist. Get real. Now sweat indicates a race.

[LeftInTX]

207. I bet the person was lily white too, cuz I'm Armenian and we are sweaty, but wouldn't consider it racist

I think it's kinda funny.

[SoFlaBro]

212. Armenians are sweaty? I've seen sweaty Canadians playing hockey. Sweaty IRA bombers. Sweaty black guys laying asphalt.

"Sweat" doesn't indicate a race. Thank you for confirming it. Some sensitive souls here think any pejorative indicates some form of bigotry.

[LeftInTX]

223. It's generally about smelly armpits. Everyone sweats, but those with hairier armpits seem to have more types of glands

Those hairs contain apocrine glands



https://asm.org/articles/2021/december/microbial-origins-of-body-odor

Body odor is primarily caused by apocrine sweat glands that become activated during puberty. These sweat glands develop in hairy regions like the armpits, genitals and scalp, where they secrete an oily fluid comprised of proteins, lipids and steroids. Contrary to popular belief, this viscous fluid (sweat) is naturally almost entirely odorless. It is only when members of the skin microbiota metabolize these secretions that they produce the malodorous byproducts, which cause body odor. In humans, armpits offer a moist, warm environment where microbes can thrive, making them a microbial hotspot.

The underarm body odor has been linked to a gene called ABCC11, which encodes a protein that transports molecules across cellular membranes, including molecules in the sweat. If the ABCC11 gene is non-functional, sweat molecules are unable to cross the membrane barrier to reach the armpit. This starves bacteria on the other side of the skin surface, as they are unable to access or metabolize the organic compounds in the sweat. As a result, odorant substances are not produced. Loss-of-function ABCC11 mutation is fairly common in East Asian populations (80-95%).


____________________

Hubby is Latino and Native American. He's never had smelly armpits, ever. He doesn't have much body hair either.

Everyone sweats, but some just have more apocrine glands and those correspond with hair.

[moreland01]

193. What's dividing liberals in my VERY liberal city

is our Land Use Code . . NIMBY's vs YIMBY's. To densify our beautiful small city and become a crowded large city, or not.

We also have pro-Palestine and pro-Israel marches, but they're peaceful and nobody is throwing accusations or name calling. But get people talking about the Land Use Code and WATCH OUT!

[Skittles]

197. I'm not divided, because it ALL makes me sick

I am sick of hearing about their never-ending squabbles, it's all just fucking disgusting.

[quakerboy]

199. Its not the first harmful division here

It wont be the last.

Humans love to disagree. Humans have a great capacity for harmfulness. Its how we come out of this that matters to the health of our community. Which is truly small potatoes compared to the matter of how the ongoing situation in Israel and Palestine comes out.

[Azathoth]

201. Don't worry, whichever side succeeds in removing the most posts

will eventually purge all opinions on the issue they don't like and there will once again be correct-think harmony.

[dalton99a]

219. +1.

[Silent3]

203. THEY have come up with a way?

The divisiveness here is unfortunate, but there's no need to cast it in a conspiratorial light, something that "they" created just to divide Democrats.

The Israeli/Hamas situation is an inherently divisive issue, and the war is happening for long-standing animosities that have nothing to do with disrupting domestic US politics.

[LeftInTX]

206. Except that our tax dollars are funding a good chunk of it

[Silent3]

208. And so?

How does that lead to the conclusion that Israel and Hamas are now at war because "THEY" want to get Democrats fighting with each other? That's how the OP was phrased, it was not about there being a financial connection between the US and Israel.

[LeftInTX]

209. That's likely why there have been so many protests involving the war and why the protests have spread here

The California Democratic Party had to cancel part of their convention due to protests and look what happened at the DNC last week. This issue is polarizing.

The protesters said, "Democrats are supposed to support a ceasefire". But that's not true. Democrats are split on the issue. One side states there is antisemitism, the other side says there is genocide.

You certainly don't read posts about the ongoing genocide in Sudan because the US just isn't involved there.

[Silent3]

211. You seem to be missing the point.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a divide among Democrats over Israel/Hamas, nor am I arguing anything about US support for Israel, financial and otherwise, playing a big part in causing that divide.

The OP makes it sound like some nefarious "THEY", the Great Powers That Be who pull all the strings in the world, specifically got Israel and Hamas fighting with each other for the express purpose of exacerbating a rift between Democrats.

Which is absurd.

[LeftInTX]

224. Agree. Bickering on DU is pretty much our own doing.

[cilla4progress]

226. You extrapolated "express purpose"

I did not say, imply, or mean that.

I do believe it was part of the intention. I.e., to keep moving Americans towards authoritarianism, including putting at risk Biden's re-election. I didn't come up with this; reading it in various news and commentary resources.

[Silent3]

229. Part of whose intention?

Which person or group decided, "You know, if things blow up in Israel right now, that'll get Democrats fighting with each other. That's another good reason to make it happen."

I don't care if you "didn't come up with this; reading it in various news and commentary resources". No one needs to push Israel and Hamas into a bloody fight. Until things radically change in the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, conflict will keep breaking out without the need for anybody with some side agenda required to make it happen.

[cilla4progress]

230. So, October 7th was nothing?

Not a ramped up, sudden, vicious, brutal outburst where things had been plodding along with no resolution but no bloody outbreaks - crossing over the border to attack innocent concert goers?

I've already stated here who I think was involved in inciting the October 7th violence.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one...

[cilla4progress]

225. I'm not so sure..

did Hamas alone have the intelligence (not smarts, but military intelligence), weaponry, blood-lust to do as they did? Perhaps medicated? I believe Putin and/or a global fascist movement is behind it. More or less coordinated.

"They" is a bit of a literary license, but I do believe there is an autocratic fascist power structure currently at work and thriving- Musk, TFG, Putin, Erdogan, Meloni, newly elected leaders in Netherlands, Argentina, etc.

You are welcome to call this conspiratorial!

[KewlKat]

204. Climate change will eventually grab our attention and we may finally rally around a common cause...

survival for any of us. It will make our conficts amongst ourselves extremely small when we face the preservation of the planet.

Disinformation, misinformation, people like TFG spewing hate and lies, media such as Faux news, it has and will continue to destroy us all.

[Leith]

205. I won't be divided

because I won't participate.

Both sides have legitimate grievances. Both sides have committed atrocities. Both sides are full of hate, anger, and the need for revenge. Both sides are hurting - it is a pain that can never be vanquished.

I can't take sides.

Now, if the gentle reader has come this far, he or she must understand that, even if the thought has been buried so deep that it can't be reached. I'm not anti-semitic Nor do I hate Muslims. They are human just like the rest of us.

The vicious past must be reconciled and the animosities must be left to the passage of time.

Take me as an example: I'm American, but my ethnic history is Irish Catholic. I know all about Oliver Cromwell, entire generations left to starve to death in ditches near the family land taken by the invaders from the east, my ancestors were lucky enough to have £10 to buy passage to the New World in a coffin ship and live to disembark in Boston. I don't blame any English person alive for any of that. They are innocent descendants.

3 generations later I don't have the anger and hatred and I never did.

There is a solution. Talk. Listen. The clip below is from Doctor Who.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

217. To me, when any group is divided in opinion its

Because it's a divisive issue in reality.

[Prairie Gates]

221. It's pretty bad

[LakeArenal]

227. Some of us actually see both sides of this issue.

Some of us are very pro humans and anti suffering.

[Goonch]

228. 👇👇👇👁️👁️