This essay in The Guardian makes me think I may be right in my long term suspicion that the word "Antisemite" has....

[MMBeilis]

.....come to be meaningless in it's use and overuse.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/27/jewish-antisemitism-support-israel-gaza-zionism

[Think. Again.]

1. I admit I am still confused...

...about the use of the phrase 'anti-semitism' when applied to the political and administrative actions of the Israeli government.

In my experience, the phrase 'anti-semitism' applied to the Jewish culture, religion, and people, not to any bureaucratic body.

But let me stress that I am not Jewish, and although I have requested clarification from Jewish sources on this, I have still not gotten a clear answer.

So my question is: is the critique of any given administration of the nation of Israel included in the definition of 'anti-semitism', and if so, would criticism of netanyahu or any Israeli government official be considered anti-semitism, even if it came from a Jewish person?

[FBaggins]

9. I'll take a swing at it

There’s only one Jewish country on the planet… so of course any flavor of hatred of Jews would include criticism of that nation and its government.

But Israel is also a democratic nation with opposing parties that disagree on policies. And there are Jews around the world who are loyal to the notion of Israel but not necessarily with its current practices or behaviors.

[Think. Again.]

14. Thanks,....

...not to put too fine a point on it, but you say "any flavor of hatred of Jews would include criticism of that nation and its government.", and I guess I was asking the other side of that question: does criticism of that nation and it's government necessarily include hatred of Jews?

Or perhaps I'm asking, does criticism of Israel's government alone qualify as anti-semitism?

I can attest that I, admittedly not Jewish, hold criticism for Israel, but have no hatred of Jews, and I have been accused (here on DU) of being anti-semitic. I'm sincerely asking; in the eyes of any Jewish person, am I?

[Beastly Boy]

33. I think the answer to your question is best illustrated in the events of last year,

when tens of thousands of Israelis were demonstrating for months against Israel's cabinet attempting to undermine Israel's judiciary.

Were they antisemitic? No, they were patriotic. This, I believe, is the answer to your question.

However, there is something that needs to be addressed in this context at the same time, and you, likely unintentionally and being unaware of the implications of your statement, brought it up as well: "I, admittedly not Jewish, hold criticism for Israel, but have no hatred of Jews". This appears to be your way of saying that your criticism of Israel does not apply to Jews in general. However, Israel is made up of mostly Jews. When you lump them all together under the label of Israel, which you then acknowledge to be generally critical of, you deny the political, social and cultural diversity of Jews within Israel. You paint them all with a single brush stroke, and many Jews in Israel and outside it would resent this generalization.

Of course you didn't intend to be antisemitic, but you inadvertently used an antisemitic ploy to criticize all (Israeli) Jews as one, no nuance allowed.

Normalizing antisemitism is a thing these days. Most people are not even aware when antisemitic sentiments creep into everyday conversations. As a Jew, I happen to be aware of them, even though I am vehemently opposed to Netanyahu's policies. My opposition to Israel's current government doesn't make me antisemitic, but it doesn't blind me to the difference between Israel in all its diversity and a dozen of its policy-making members of cabinet either.

[Think. Again.]

34. now THAT makes sense!

When you say...

"When you lump them all together under the label of Israel, which you then acknowledge to be generally critical of, you deny the political, social and cultural diversity of Jews within Israel. You paint them all with a single brush stroke, and many Jews in Israel and outside it would resent this generalization."

...I DO now see how that is anti-semitic.

Of course, my immediate reaction was 'no, I am only critical of the actions of the people who make up the Israeli government' but that just stinks of the same type of justification we hear so much from all bigots when they are called out.

Thank you for taking the time to gently and reasonably help me through that question.

My most sincere apologies for the offense my words carry.

[Beastly Boy]

47. I salute you, Think

Few people have enough fortitude and self-confidence to keep an open mind. It is doubly difficult when much of the mass and social media ate actively engaging in normalizing antisemitism. It is they who are antisemitic, not the consumers of their narratives.

Thank you.

[TwilightZone]

2. Just because some people misuse the term doesn't mean it's lost all meaning.

As for the author's notion that "Antisemites supporting Israel is weird", it may be weird by it's not at all uncommon. There are plenty of antisemites who support Israel. The GOP congressional delegation seems to be loaded with them.

At issue, there are different forms of antisemitism. One might be guilty of one and not others. That's the case in many of the examples that the author provided.

RFK Jr. is a perfect example of this. His idiotic remarks about Covid are textbook antisemitism, yet pro-Israel groups note his support of Israel as a state. They're wrong, however, when they claim he can't be antisemitic because he supports Israel. They are not always one and the same.

[liberalhistorian]

26. Fundamentalist evangelical

Christians support Israel for theological reasons, primarily that its creation fulfills their interpretation of biblical prophecy that heralds the beginning of the end times. They are also generally anti-Jewish, unless Jews become "saved" (hence, their support of Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jews). This is the attitude of many congressional Republicans, including the wackjob Speaker, Johnson. Their support of Israel for theological reasons does not at all include Jews.

They may try to dress up their bigotry as patronizing "concern", but it's still antisemitic bigotry.

[LexVegas]

3. "Antisemitism" losing meaning sounds like something antisemites would push.

[Cha]

6. No shit.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. A step above the right wing's "Oh, they are just playing the 'Race Card'" nonsense.

I will say some "anti-Semitism" is overplayed and it is by those whining about it, as in, 'Oh poor, poor pitiful me! I can't ever criticize Jews, Israel and/or Zionism because I will be called an anti-Semite. "

[JustAnotherGen]

24. I co-sign this post

[JohnSJ]

27. Well said

[Sympthsical]

4. The Guardian is not . . . great, unfortunately.

Antisemitism is pretty clear. Are you harassing Jews who are in no way involved with the conflict? Are you saying things about Jews in general? Do you think Israel should be destroyed? Are you targeting Jews with your speech and behavior? Have you committed threatening behavior in Jewish spaces?

These are clear, easily discernible things.

The only people who think the line is blurry are the ones who are most frequently and enthusiastically crossing it.

As for the Guardian.

I'm a Jew at 'The Guardian'. I Do Not Feel Safe At Work

They're highly anti-Israel. Highly. And it frequently and joyfully crosses lines and carries Hamas water on the daily.

I don't really give a fuck what the Guardian thinks about anything.

[lapucelle]

29. Thank you for sharing that.

It deserves an OP, but I think many of us can guess what would happen.

[betsuni]

36. Thank you.

[Celerity]

38. I love the Guardian. I think it is the best of the major Anglosphere newspapers. nt

[Sympthsical]

40. You agree with their politics

I don't. I'm a progressive - not a Leftist.

Not synonymous things.

[Celerity]

41. I am a progressive social democrat, I do not know what you mean by 'leftist', as that seems too broad a brush.

I am not at all far left, I am not a socialist (democratic or otherwise), I am not a communist (of any stripe).

My politics are quite quotidian, solid centre of the left (not left of centre) in a core European/UK sort of way. I am a big believer in the the Nordic model, with a robust (but also fairly highly regulated) private sector working synergistically with an expansive social welfare state to provide as high a standard of living as is possible, along with as high a level of wealth equality as is possible. I am a huge proponent of labour unions as well.

Lots of things left out, but you should get the drift by now. I also do not think the Guardian is nearly as radical left as I understand you to be claiming.

I also fleshed out some of my P/I stances to you in a previous reply (which I hope you saw). I am hardly some bomb-throwing radical on it all. I do not approve of ANY of the pro-Hamas elements that are unfortunately found within the overarching Palestinian side of the protests. I condemned them with all my essence. They are anti-human.

That said, one core to my stances on the P/I situation:

International law and rules of war have disportionate response elements, as does real life global (including the US) public opinion and its attendant political and geo-military realities.

Israel simply does not possess an absolutely free, unfettered hand to do whatever their RW leaders want to the Palestinian people. It just doesn’t, no matter how much or for how long the self-defence banner is waved. At some floating point (one that will be bitterly argued over for sure) it does become comprehensive crimes and genocidal and/or ethnic cleansing adjacent.

[Sympthsical]

42. I'm not interested in hashing out Gaza to death

Nothing any of us say will have any effect anyway. I am much more interested in the domestic fallout of the conflict, which I find to be very concerning particularly on the Left at the moment. The quiet from groups I had considered allies has been an eye-opening experience and laid bare the toxicity and problematic nature of oppression conflict theory that is routinely taught in academia and pushed onto students.

That's where my head is.

As for the Guardian, they are highly ideological. I see it in their articles. The article by the Jewish writer I linked lays it out pretty cleanly. We talk about reliable sources, getting objectively good information, and trying to sift through fact and misinformation. The Guardian is biased to hell and back. It's clear in all of their writing. Not only what they write about and the language they use, but what they choose not to write about.

It would be very difficult for someone, when parsing out reliable sources, not to see the outrageous bias and ideological bent in their reporting. Their credibility is just not there for me.

We like them because they hate Republicans and slam the American Right. And that's awesome when they do it.

But when it comes to world events, real hard pass.

[Celerity]

46. agree to disagree

[obamanut2012]

44. The Guardian is not a leftist newspaper, it is literally considered Progressive media ie Center-Left

Or, Centre-Left, to be British.

[Sympthsical]

45. It quacks

That's enough for me.

[obamanut2012]

43. I do, too

[Cha]

5. No. It's hasn't " come to be maninless ".. That's

Ridiculous.

[cyclonefence]

7. The Arabs are a semitic group, too

From https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

Semitic is defined as

1.
relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2.
relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.

[LexVegas]

8. You don't get to redefine words. nt

[inthewind21]

10. Neither do you

Just sayin.

[LexVegas]

12. Hostility towards and discrimination against Jewish people....Oxford English Dictionary. nt

[Cha]

16. TY

[LexVegas]

18. I cannot believe the shit I see here sometimes. nt

[Cha]

22. I know..

just throwing stuff against the wall.

[lapucelle]

28. Isn't the word being discussed "anti-Semite"?

It means one thing.



https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=Antisemite

======================================================

Sorry about the giant picture. I hope you don't mind.

[tritsofme]

11. We all know what anti-Semitism means, this is gaslighting.

[Cha]

17. Yes

[FBaggins]

13. But not included in "antisemitism"

The term’s etymology doesn’t come from “hatred of Semitic peoples”

[madaboutharry]

15. I'm sick of the gaslighting.

Jews don’t need to be schooled on what is and what is not antisemitism.

Antisemitism is like pornography. We know it when we see it.

[edhopper]

20. I feel the same about

"Genocide" lately.

[EllieBC]

21. So do non BIPOC get to tell BIPOC

what is racist and what isn’t?

Do cishets get to tell LGBTQA+ what is homophobic or transphobic?

We are regularly told that if one POC tells you something is racist, it doesn’t matter what anyone else has said. It’s racist. Because again, Jews are the only people told they cannot define antisemitism.

[Cha]

23. Rec TY

[LexVegas]

25. Well put. nt

[betsuni]

37. +1

[Behind the Aegis]

39. "Jews Don't Count"

My title serves two purposes, the first is obvious, and the second, well, given the OP, I do suggest the book in the title by Dave Biddell, as it deals mostly with anti-Semitism from the left in the UK. It isn't long, but still quite thorough. Another one, which really needs to be read (I think you have already read it), is "People Love Dead Jews". Again, that title is pulling double duty, even at this site.

[emulatorloo]

30. Opinion pieces are like assholes, every online newspaper has one.

In general, The Guardian has good reporting from their news divisions. Opinion pieces aren’t news though - and this person’s opinion calling anti-semitism “meaningless” isn’t any good.

[Abolishinist]

31. I've always enjoyed The Guardian. In fact,

just 10 minutes before clicking on this OP, I was reading an article on their site, and they asked for a donation. I told them to wait until the first of the year, at which time I was planning on making a contribution.

Based on this, I'm going to check them out a little bit more, but in the end I believe they will prevail.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Your comment reeks of delegitimization.

This is a common method of attack against Jews and other minorities. Deny bigotry against a group as "not real" or "not significant" and gaslight those victimized by it, making it, the minority, responsible for the bigotry enacted against it. We see this on the right with their screeches of "playing the race card" and "oh, poor pitiful me, why can't I call Obama a chimp, they called Bush the Lesser a chimp?! Isn't that the real racism?!" Even here, I have had to fight off ignorant bigots who claim homophobia isn't real because people aren't "really" scared of gay people, therefore, no "phobia". Sound familiar? It should because it is along the same vein of those trying to redefine anti-Semitism as "bigotry against Semites" when that is clearly not the definition of anti-Semitism.

Is anti-Semitism sometimes misused? Yup, just like every other "-ism" and "-phobia". But, it doesn't mean it isn't real. Furthermore, when I see accusations of racism and sexism, transphobia, and sometimes homophobia, I see liberals step back and ponder "hmm, maybe I should let the affected group lead the way and reexamine my attitude/speech", but when Jews say something is anti-Semitic, gentiles leap into action and BLAME the Jews and our supporters, claiming they are the real victim, not the Jews. There is no call for introspection, just accusations of falsely claiming anti-Semitism, y'know, "playing the Jew card"!

[MMBeilis]

35. In the Original Post, I see that my poor choice of words has indeed indeed given an erroneous impression of my....

Last edited Thu Dec 21, 2023, 06:34 PM - Edit history (1)

.......thoughts on the subject. In saying that the word "has come to be meaningless", I left the impression that we do not know or acknowledge it's meaning. I should have spoken to my thoughts on it's misuse, by others, both inadvertent and intentional, that can affect it's appreciation.Your observation that it's misuse "doesn't mean it isn't real" is obvious.
That said, what would you say has been the effect of it's misuse?