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[Whovian]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Whovian) on Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:14 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[JaneyVee]

1. Gaza doesn't even have a military. No army, navy, air force, or marines.

[Fozzledick]

21. They do seem to have an awful lot of artillery rockets

as well as a large armed militia.

Of course they prefer random terror attacks on civilians to direct military engagement.

[librechik]

59. How many Israeli civilians have been killed? I haven't heard that on the news.

[glacierbay]

62. The only reason that only 3 have been killed so far

is because of their Iron Dome Missile Interceptor system, otherwise there would be many more Israeli casualties.
There have been hundreds of rockets fired into Israel so far.

[librechik]

71. I wonder how many lives on both sides could have been saved

if instead of the terrifying-sounding Iron Dome Israel had established sincere peacemaking efforts and sent truckloads of food, water and medicine into the prison that is Israeli-occupied Palestine.

[glacierbay]

72. I wonder how many lives

could be saved if Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran renounced their stated goal of the complete and utter destruction of Israel?

[librechik]

89. somebody has to stop the escalation--why don't the lovable, smart and kind Israelis do that?

Instead of reacting with deadly force to every unwise lashing out, why not be the bigger "person" and make peace? Aren't the Israelis the ones with the deeper generosity, the better grasp on goodness and all that is right? Surely these remarkable and blessed people could find a way to reach out to those evil monsters who hate them (surely for no reason whatsoever; they are merely evil) and learn if there's anything they could do to heal the situation?

After all, evil crumbles before good. When a good person answers evil with more evil, that can't lead to anything but more evil. With all that evil coming down on the evil Hamas heads how can good and peace even be contemplated?

[hack89]

24. The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades would disagree with you

The brigades have a substantial weapons inventory of light automatic weapons and grenades, improvised rockets, mortars, bombs, suicide belts and explosives. The Brigades fire Qassam rockets and mortar shells into Israel on a regular basis. The group engages in military style training, including training which take place in Iran and Syria on a range of weapons designed to inflict significant casualties on civilian and military targets.[8]

While the number of members is known only to the Brigades leadership, in 2011 Israel estimated that the Brigades have a core of several hundred members who receive military style training, including training in Iran and Syria.[8] Additionally, the brigades have an estimated 10,000 operatives "of varying degrees of skill and professionalism" who are members of the internal security forces, Hamas and their supporters. These operatives can be expected to reinforce the Brigades in an "emergency situation".[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

[edhopper]

2. Israel has faced opponents with similar strength

they are very well equipped and trained for it.

What is your solution to having rockets fired on your cities?

I think there is an eventual diplomatic solution here (as Camp David solved things with Egypt)

But not as long as Hamas doesn't want one.

[cali]

3. It's clear that Israel doesn't want one either.

[Whovian]

4. Compare the death toll.

[hack89]

11. That is because Iron Dome has intercepted over 300 rockets.

not because Hamas is not trying their hardest to kill Israeli civilians.

[LittleBlue]

66. The death toll was disproportionate before Iron Dome ever existed

Just google the casualty figures from any of Israel's conflicts in the last 20 years.

[hack89]

67. That's the way wars are fought

they are not school yard spats complete with some perverted sense of fairness.

And intentions matter - given the choice, Hamas would not hesitate to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible.

[onenote]

42. so is it your view that all military actions are unfair unless they result in a tie?

[glacierbay]

46. That would have worked out real well in WWII.

[brush]

65. On "Talk Left" on sattelite radio . . .

. . . I heard last week that we progressives should champion and partner with the peace movement in Israel instead of with Bibi and all the hardliners who keep up the constant warring. And I was like, of course, we should have been going in that direction years ago to forge liaisons with our counterparts over there. Our corporate media, naturally, gives the Israeli peace movement no coverage. Also mentioned on the show was how the aid we send to Israel helps keep the conflict there going as the money is spent mostly on weapons. Israel has the latest hi-tech weapons and they get them from our defense industry, paid for with the 3 billion dollars in aid we ship to Israel every year. That was an eye opener for me. There is no incentive to end this 60 some-year-old-conflict if the war hawks in Israel get 3 billion to spend on war toy superiority every year while our defense contractors get to feed off that same 3 billion. We, the American taxpayers are in effect, paying to keep this conflict going. This almost incestuous circle will never end unless we end it by shutting down or evening up the aid gravy train. C'mon, it's been 60 years, this could have been solved long ago if it wasn't for this money merry-go-round. Some realpolitik dealings with the Israelis and a few billion in aid to the Palestinians as well and and I'm betting they would suddenly want to get along famously with Israel. Let's get this perpetual conflict solved.

[demhottie]

68. When, in the last four decades has Israel faced an opponent with similar strength?

[glacierbay]

70. 1973 Yom Kippur war

when a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. Israel was outnumbered in troops, tanks and almost went under, w/o the US resuppling them, they may very well have gone under.

[demhottie]

73. EXACTLY! 39 years ago

Then you would agree that since then Israel has fought hugely asymmetrical wars?

[glacierbay]

75. And if Israel wasn't as strong as they are now

how long do you think they would last?

[HappyMe]

5. I agree.

It makes me sad to think that this will never end. I wish that there was a way to force peace there.

[RC]

6. There was, at one time.

Clinton almost got it done, but ran out of time. George Walker Bush scuttled it as the first order of business. Another charge on the War Crimes list of the Republican party.

[earthside]

12. Israel is making sure that cannot happen.

By creating the Swiss cheese configuration in the West Bank of Palestinian enclaves, they have already made a peaceful solution almost impossible.

The only solution, it seems to me is either a one state solution with Palestinians and Israelis forced to live with one another with equal rights in the same country.

Or the world enforces the 1967 borders and those Israelis stuck in Palestinian areas either have to become citizens/residents of Palestine or move out.

Does anyone think either or those to options is possible?

So the future is one of continued slow, but sure, Israeli extinguishing/marginalizing/subjugation (pick your word) of the Palestinian people.

[Hutzpa]

17. The future is the continuation of Oppression from Israel.

We can try by using semantics to describe Israel's behavior, but one thing is certain, Israel is continuing their OPPRESSION.

[HappyMe]

19. I think that 2 states

may be the only way. And even that may be near impossible to accomplish. Hatred is getting passed down through the generations. The Swiss cheese configuration kind of makes it impossible for the Palestinians to organize themselves to hold decent elections, enforce laws, etc.

[Puregonzo1188]

85. I think the time for that as passed. The swiss cheese configuration as you aptly call it makes it

impossible. Which is exactly what the Israelis want. They might rethink that when they end up living a state with a majority Palestinian population, but I can't really feel sorry for them in that situation.

[malaise]

7. But you'd never know that listening to M$Greedia

At least BBC is pretending to be objective

[cali]

8. You need to read more.

As far as TV, I agree, but the print media has a many thoughtful and critical pieces.

[former-republican]

9. Two states is the only solution ,until this happens it will always resort back to this

[Big Blue Marble]

14. It is becoming more apparent that the political right in Israel

has no intention of a two state solution. They are stalling for
time until they can absorb enough of the West Bank that no viable nation could
be formed from the remaining remnants. They intend to force their will on the Palestinians and
the world.

Whether they succeed will have a lot to do with what the USA asks of them. And at this
time we are asking very little.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. The 1967 borders are no longer and option

They were formed by war and will be reshaped by war

[bluedigger]

10. It's part of the problem.

If Israel had to deal with them as equals we'd see a lot more diplomacy and a lot less death on both sides.

[Laurian]

13. They barely have the basic necessities of life, let alone military assets. n/t

[hack89]

18. Yet they choose to smuggle in thousands of rockets instead of those necessities. nt

[Laurian]

30. In a civilized world, why should any people have to smuggle in food?

[hack89]

33. In a civilized world, why would any people choose weapons over food? nt

[cali]

61. They don't have to smuggle in food.

that's simply not a factual claim.

[FarCenter]

15. If the Israelis go into the built up part, IEDs and anti-tank missiles may be fairly effective

It depends on whether the Gazans have learned from the Hezbollah and stockpiled modern tandem warhead missiles.

[Big Blue Marble]

16. It is not luck.

The borders of Gaza are sealed by the Israelis. The 1.5 million Gazans live in an open door prison.
Now they are caught in another turkey shoot without any real way to defend themselves.

The Israelis apparently call it "mowing the grass."

[hack89]

20. Yet Hamas still decided to launch rocket attacks

knowing exactly what Israel would do.

That is the part that puzzles me.

[glacierbay]

22. Probably to provoke Israel into retaliating

so they could garner world support and condemnation of Israel, just read some of the comments on DU about Israel.
Gotta hand it to Hamas, they know how to create a propaganda campaign.
Unfortunately, a lot of innocent civilians pay the tragic price.

[Big Blue Marble]

28. How conveniently you excuse the Israeli violence. N/T

[glacierbay]

32. How conveniently you seem to excuse Hamas violence

Hamas knows it can't win a military confrontation, but they know they can win a propaganda war, unfortunately, it's the innocent civilians that pay the price, on both sides.

[Big Blue Marble]

39. I excuse no violence. Not ours, not theirs, not anyones.

You know and I know who will have the disproportionate causalities.
How easily you excuse the deaths of the children of Gaza.

One thing is clear. Israel is losing the propaganda war. They cannot win.
More importantly, they are losing their morality. Might never makes right.

[glacierbay]

40. I'm not excusing the deaths of children on either side

Maybe if Hamas quits firing rockets into Israel, then Israel will stop firing into Gaza.
And your right, Israel is losing the propaganda war, that's probably why Hamas started this shit, because they knew they could win, however, it's the innocent civililans who pay the price for the stupidity.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. What about the ongoing Israeli blockade of Gaza?

Is that not an act of war? Aimed at increasing the misery of Palestinian civilians?

Just what would you have the Palestinians do? Continue to live under the Israeli boot for a few decades more?

[glacierbay]

54. Have them renounce their stated goal of the total

destruction of Israel, renounce terrorism, quit shooting fucking rockets across the border, both sides sit down for peace talks w/o and pre-conditions and work out a peace treaty that will benefit both sides and the region.

[leftynyc]

80. Maybe losing propoganda war on this site

But a poll just released has 57% of Americans supportive of Israel, 25% supportive of Hamas and 20% who don't give a shit. And the Israeli's will never give a shit what the Europeans have to say on this issue. And where o where are the Arab countries? Who is sending money and/or weapons? That's right....nobody. All they will get are words from their "brothers" because they are nothing but a talking point to them.

You can claim Israeli's are losing their morality but I'll bet real money they care more about not having rockets raining down on them.

[glacierbay]

82. [phone] nt.

[Mr Dixon]

86. IMO

Agreed seems to be a lot of defense for bullies going on.

[Big Blue Marble]

27. What would you do in their impossible situation?

Violence is always wrong. But most desperate people will resort to violence when all other options fail.
What would you suggest for these occupied peoples who live in a captive state?

[hack89]

29. I would ensure the civilian population was protected before starting a war.

I would not place military bunkers in civilian areas. I would move civilians away from known military targets.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. Why do say the Gazans started this war?

And how do you call it a war when one side has a superpower 21st Century military and the other has
only rockets? How would you defend yourself in Gazans' position? What if you were they?

[hack89]

41. You are right - it is not war. Stupidity is more accurate description

because, as you point out, Hamas is trying to wage war against a much stronger opponent. If they have no chance to win then why do it?

Hamas fired hundreds of rockets before Israel retaliated. There is always a constant low level of violence between each side but Hamas were the ones that decided to kick it up a notch this time.

If I was Hamas I would renounce violence and formally recognize Israel's right to exist. I would then end the civil war with the PA and negotiate a unified Palestinian position with them so that real peace talks with Israel could start.

[cali]

63. Yes, it's an open air prison. No, the borders aren't sealed.

[EX500rider]

88. The borders of Gaza are sealed by the Israelis....

....you mean except that border with Egypt?

[Comrade_McKenzie]

23. I wish they did. I hate watching defenseless people get slaughtered. nt

[glacierbay]

25. Maybe if Hamas quits firing rockets into Israel

Israel wouldn't be firing back.
Just sayin.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. You totally ignore the history of Israeli occupation, blockade, and oppression.

Just sayin'.

[glacierbay]

55. No, I'm not.

Just sayin.

[Fozzledick]

26. Israel has defeated much larger military forces before.

In 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973.

That's why Iran prefers to pay Palestinians to launch terror attacks against Israeli civilians rather than risk their own military in a direct confrontation.

[liberalmuse]

31. I agree.

Christ, it's hard to watch without getting extremely angry and disgusted with both sides. Religion and tribalism will be the death of us all.

[99Forever]

34. Isreal is a bully...

... supplied with weapons and money, by our tax dollars.

Are you proud?

[glacierbay]

37. And Hamas is a terrorist org.

dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and yes, I'm damned proud that our country supports Israel by suppling them with the weapons and money they need to survive in a hostile region.

[99Forever]

45. There are NO good guys is this shitfight.

Both of them are equally to blame for it. Neither wants peace.

The only innocents are the children BOTH of these hatemongering assholes will pass their legacy of evil on to.

[glacierbay]

47. I can agree with that. nt.

[Mr Dixon]

87. Agreed

[Bonobo]

35. Not as lucky as the USA.

With about 4 million deaths or more on the heads of the USA in the last 40 years, I'd say no one is luckier than the USA that the rest of the world doesn't have its military strength.

[leveymg]

38. If they did, Israel AF wouldn't be bombing them. Also, Palestine wouldn't be firing bottle rockets.

[onenote]

44. You're right. If Hamas had the means to carry out its declared goal of destroying Israel it would

And Israel would fight them to the end defending itself.

Not something I would root for happening.

[leveymg]

49. IDF v Hamas virtually defines "asymmetrical warfare." Growing frustration is the main outcome.

Both sides grow increasingly hostile and frustrated over time in such an impasse. Spasmatic violence and terrorism is almost inevitable.

The US can only suppress escalation and deter the spread of hostilities, while providing alternative outcomes and outlets for combatants.

[onenote]

43. Europe was really lucky the Germans ended up not having the same military strength as the Allies.

By military strength, i mean not only strength in equipment and other materiel but also strength in strategic planning. So yes, if Hamas had greater military strength they would be doing even more harm to Israel. They don't, so why the hell are they pursuing military actions they can't possibly win? Why are they putting the people of Gaza in harm's way from retaliatory strikes by Israel.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not read your post as suggesting that you are rooting for more people to be killed than is already the case.

[HopeHoops]

48. Israel can easily overrun Gaza. They just don't want to. They want Hamas in control.

If they take out Hamas, even worse factions will rise to power. It's a balancing act. They need to show superiority without destroying the dominant faction. We're their only solid backup and they know it. Pretty much every other country in the region would like to obliterate Israel. If it goes on much longer, we'll be involved. That won't be a good thing on any level.

[ann---]

78. No, they want to

kill as many innocents as possible - it's the savage Israeli brand of "pest control."

[HopeHoops]

79. They don't want to unseat Hamas. The factions waiting in the wings are worse.

[hack89]

81. They are not doing a very good job then

with their firepower the deaths should be in the tens of thousands by now.

[glacierbay]

83. that's got to be one of the most inane comments yet.

Shame on you for this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Impossible scenario

To have the military power of Israel requires a modern state and a free people. Something that will never be allowed by Hamas or any other islamic based nation.

[Comrade Grumpy]

53. That's an incredibly bigoted comment. About what I'd expect from this poster.

Plus, it's just stupid.

China, anyone?

Also, to have the military power of Israel requires tens of billions of dollars in military aid from the US.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. Not at all

China is an islamic state? News to me. It was Maoist and somewhat Marxist and now moving to some limited market freedoms.

Being under islamic law hamstrings a nation to the point where it can never get anywhere near its full potential. Let start with denying half of its citizens anything but a rudimentary education.

Or is that okay with you comrade?

[glacierbay]

58. He said Hamas or Islamic based nation.

China is neither.

[Nye Bevan]

60. Yep. It's always good when civilized democracies have better weaponry than terrorist thugs.

Which is why I fully support President Obama's policy on Israel.

[The Traveler]

64. And this shit is going to go on

Until the rest of the world gets together, looks both sides in the eye and says in a firm, united voice: "We are tired of your shit."

It is easy to lose track of the misdeeds of Palestinians, particularly Hamas ... largely because they are so ineffectual. Let's make it clear. Lobbing rockets into Israel is not cool. It is not acceptable. Yeah, I know their rockets aren't very accurate and have been largely ineffective (only in part because of defences like Iron Dome ... also largely because their rockets suck) but that doesn't mean they don't sometimes snuff out the lives of innocent bystanders. Let's face it ... no one is going to just sit back and let the other guy heave rockets at his house.

But Israel has gone off the hook. They have a right to defend themselves, but they do not have a right to do ANYTHING to defend themselves. Not and remain in good relation to the rest of the civilized world. Both sides have war criminals in their leadership class. Maybe its time to arrest a few from both sides and slam 'em into prison.

If we keep focusing on the history of this ... who did what to whom first, etc. we will never arrive at a peaceful solution. What needs to happen is for the world to insist on a peaceful solution within certain broad guidelines that offer the people of both sides opportunities to prosper. Again, "We are tired of your shit."

It's difficult. I support Israel's right to exist and defend themselves ... but I can't support this. They are transforming themselves into an oppressive power, implementing apartheid and flirting with genocide, and definitely indulging in the language of genocide. But the ugly chants in Belgium of "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas" are just as outrageous, and serve to remind us of the Israeli perspective ... Yeah. The Arabs have helped create this mess, and if they had the means would likely be every bit as brutal.

But there we go, back into history. I want no part of it. I'm tired of their shit. If they want to go to hell so badly, I say we let 'em. But let 'em do it without the economic or military support of any nation. Cut them off. Both sides. Destroy their high tech military toys. (That's why we have EMP weapons, eh?) Let 'em fight it out with sticks and stones.


Trav

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. Palestinians are being used as proxies by Iran and other muslim nations

who choose to supply arms and invective to encourage the violence in the name of jihad and arab unity. Supplying food and medicine to lift up the people of Gaza instead has never been on their agenda. It is Palestinian blood on the sand and whose children are dying, not theirs. The people of Gaza are being used as tools to bleed and die.

There has been peace with Iran and Syria, despite multiple attacks by them upon Israel, so we know it is possible. Stop the violence and good things have come. Its the right approach.

[dsc]

74. actually they are lucky that the Palestinians are the most politically inept leaders ever

Any fool could see that Obama and Bibi hate each others' guts and that an Obama second term would give Palestinians a President who would be much more willing than most to deal. They should have sat on their hands until Jan 21 and then sent back channel people to offer a real peace plan. Obama would have had every impulse to push it.

[elleng]

76. Unfortunately 'luck' has nothing to do with it.

[ann---]

77. How could they

when the U.S. gives Israel all the money and deadly weapons it wants to kill the Palestinians with. Palestine doesn't have a chance and Benji Yahoo's aim is to kill as many innocents as possible so the gain in Palestinian population doesn't get too large.

[glacierbay]

84. Wow