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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYou cannot watch what remains of Gaza and not say
war crimes and genocide.
Carry on dehumanizing the other. I will not be part of it.
Nothing justifies this.
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tritsofme
(19,900 posts)Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...is excusing hamas for anything, but some here are also looking honestly at netanyahu & co's actions.
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)Is not supported by reality.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...please support it with strong evidence of anyone here excusing hamas for anything or consider deleting it.
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)And against TOS, ad I'm sure you know
But if you want to see people excusing Hamas, you can find it in many threads about the sexual violence committed by Hamas. I recall one poster asking if there was video to prove the accusations.
You can also find excuses for Hamas here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218425016
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218489304
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143159829
And here
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218489506
There are MANY more examples, but you will either believe or not regardless of the quantity on evidence.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...my conclusions are usually based more on quality of evidence, not quantity.
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)As there are plenty of quality examples of people excusing Hamas in those links.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...there are some hideous and bitter posts in those threads, not very comfortable reading material.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)As such, you're going to see a lot that isn't easy to hear, see, or know exists.
No, I'm neither a nihilist nor a pessimist. I'm a realist.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...that DU is representative of a better slice of the population, being specifically created for Democrats.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)
zanana1
(6,488 posts)It's too complicated for easy answers.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)And killing all the kids because one terrorist was hiding in the basement or bombing the whole east side of NY because a terrorist was hiding in the subway. This is Netanyahu’s thinking and what he’s been doing. It’s super racist to say Palestinian kids lives are worth way less than American kids lives.
brush
(61,033 posts)which means Netanyahu/Likud must also suffer the consequences for what they've done to Gaza...extreme over-kill.
12,000 innocent non-combatant Palestinians killed and counting v 1500 innocent Israelis killed. That's a ratio of about 9.5 to 1. That apparently in not sufficient for Netanyahu/Likud as they've signaled the air strikes will resume once the hostage/prisoner exchange is finished.
Arazi
(8,887 posts)That continues to fight in civilian areas including schools, mosques, apartments etc
Hamas could come out from behind their human shields and fight…
Allllllllll of those deaths are on Hamas for deciding to incite a war in Gaza.
Hamas could surrender, that will actually be enough for Netanyahu (and be the end of him too)
brush
(61,033 posts)despicable acts against each other. Once this war is over intenational authorities will have no choice but to hold investigations to bring those responsible to account.
And please note that the first sentence in my post is "Hamas must be eliminated" so that it is clear I'm no Hamas apologist.
Got that?
Arazi
(8,887 posts)Are you serious?!
brush
(61,033 posts)Over-retaliatory warmongers who can't wait to get back to the killing is who they are.
As I've said, I've called for impartiality from the jump on this...negotiations and a cease fire...hopefully leading to a Palestinian state without Hamas.
Think. Take a pause and look around instead of the obvious blood thirst for revenge that has resulted in the over-killing of thousands of innocents. There's been more than enough of that.
Arazi
(8,887 posts)Who will never get a state while Hamas exists.
They’ve got to go (so does Netanyahu). If you’ve got a better plan for removing them, please speak up.
I repeat - I’m on the Palestinian’s side. There is no hope for their own state until Hamas’ is removed.
Nobody seems to have a better method to achieve that necessary step on the way to a permanent peace.
Otherwise *you* are consigning them to live as they have been - permanently. That is a far worse outcome imo
brush
(61,033 posts)to indicate the opposite. Pro-tip though: Impartiality is the way to go on this as there are innocents on both sides.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)They killed 20,000 innocent people to get 1,500 to 2,000 Hamas soldiers. Is it ok with you for Israel to kill 300,000 more innocents to get the other 28,000 Hamas soldiers??
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)They have deliberately embedded themselves in an urban area and within the civilian population. It seems to me that they have made it so they can only be removed in this way. Have another idea?
brush
(61,033 posts)Hamas operative not safely ensconced in one of the tunnels is certainly not the way. Israel's image internationally may never recover if such mass killings and destruction resumes.
The IDF is going to have to deploy ground troops/special forces to ferret out Hamas in urban warfare. It won't be easy. It's a long, hard slog and won't be easy.
Before the pause they had already began deploying ground troops.
I wish them luck.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)… but ground combat in an urban setting is very destructive and dangerous. Make no mistake… many civilians will die.
brush
(61,033 posts)And Sec'y of State Blinken, traveled there for the third time, and just warned Israel today that they cannot attack south Gaza as they did the northern. He said that significant precautions have to be taken to limit civilian casualties.
It can't be any clearer than that. No more mass, indiscriminate bombing.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)body in Gaza, we are not willing to see tens of thousands innocent women and children killed in order to accomplish that goal. Whether the response to the Oct. 7 atrocity will be viewed as war crimes will be up to the international courts, I view the excessive deaths of people living in Gaza as a moral failure of the first order.
There are far more people here who have suggested that Israel has the right to kill as many civilians as is necessary to get to Hamas and that one crime justifies the other, that brutality in response to brutality is justice. There are frequent fliers that seem to believe that Israel is incapable of wrongdoing, that anything that they do is right, because they are Israel. To accept that argument would require me to close my eyes or look the other way and I am not willing to do that even for my own country.
Now, since I have clearly indicated that I do not believe that Israel is 100% right, in everything that they do, accuse me of being a supporter of Hamas. While it is totally untrue, I know that it is coming as soon as I hit the post button.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)What are you willing to see done to liquidate Hamas as an armed body capable of sadistic murder on a mass scale?
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)Perhaps nearly half of those children. There has to be a better way of either eliminating Hamas or securing the Israel border.... So I will turn your question back on you. How many innocent Palestinians are you willing to kill to be rid of Hamas? Or do you believe, that in order to get rid of Hamas, if it is necessary, to depopuate Gaza then that is acceptable.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Your faith this is so is touching, but not helpful in the situation as it does exist.
Tell me how you would go about achieving the goal of liquidating Hamas.
I expect you will find Israel, as a society and a democratic polity, is willing do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal, and will not cease the effort till it is.
I am not inclined to make pious noises 'off' to the aggrieved party, particularly not when I am aware that well-meaning people's doing so is what Hamas counts on for its survival as a force capable of committing sadistic murder wholesale.
I have no objection if the government of my country determines that it would be in the best interests of the United States were Israel to reduce the weight of its assault, and slow its tempo, because I do not think the interests of the United States and Israel run in parallel at present, and developments here concern me more.
Not every problem has a solution, not a palatable one, anyway.
"This is the best world possible, Everything in it is a necessary evil."
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)secure their borders. Unless, of course, secure borders is not all that Israel wants from the currrent war.
Now I ask again, how many deaths are you willing to accept? Is there any price in Palestinian lives that is too high to pay. It is a simple question that does not require a snarky reply.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Asking is some number enough and another just one too many is foolishness.
I am concerned the goal be achieved. Once it is, whether it was worth the cost can be assessed, along with whether it could have been achieved with less expenditure of human life.
Simply as a matter of people and how they do, I would expect the bloodlust presently afflicting the nation of Israel will begin to subside somewhere around twenty or so for each Israeli killed by the sadistic murderers fielded by Hamas on October 7. Without whose joyful outing, widely applauded in Gaza and elsewhere, as you are perfectly well aware, there would not have been a bomb dropped or a person killed in Gaza over the last several weeks.
You are asking, in fact, for two things you will never see on this earth: sainthood as a general condition in a mass of human beings, and perfection in military action.
And this 'but everybody there's an adorable little tyke' wheeze is getting awfully old. It's right up there with pretending 'from the river to the sea' means anything but killing and expelling all Jews found in the area described. It makes the presumption a comment containing it is made in bad faith a reasonable one.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)And that, sir, will be the end of my discussion with you.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)"One less bell to answer. One less egg to fry. One less man to pick up after."
EX500rider
(12,583 posts)So like the N/S Korea DMZ with minefields?
And how does that stop the mass rocket attacks?
brush
(61,033 posts)have got to stop, and no resumption once the hostage/prisoner exchange pauses are over.
This means of course that the IDF has to do the long, hard slog of urban warfare to ferret out the terrorists from their tunnels. It won't be easy, but soldiers know when they sigh up, it's not always going to be just mop-up operations after the bunker buster bombs blow up civilians and their housing to smithereens.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)Now be prepared for other posters to insinuate or actually accuse you of being a Hamas supporter. Their logic will be based on a theory that if you are not are not blind and deaf to the suffering on innocent people in Palestine, and that you think that is possible that Israel is capable of error, then you must be some kind of anti-Semite.
brush
(61,033 posts)it is one of impartiality as there are innocent victims on both sides.
And btw, Netanyahu and Likud are very unpopular in Israel and will most likely be booted out as soon as this war is over, possibly before.
scipan
(3,041 posts)This was a good discussion between you and The Magistrate. I wish there was more of this type.
My opinion is that Hamas should be eliminated as a viable force. Then a caretaker government until the Palestinians can vote for their preference. That can't happen until Hamas goes.
As far as how many is too much, I don't think that is a good way to measure things. Israel should follow the rules of war according to the UN Geneva conventions.
The devil is definitely in the details though. Thanks.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)possible with indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilians and their homes, as if the death of Palestinians were either not taken into consideration at all, or even worse that it might have been taken into consideration. What Hamas did was abhorrent, brutal and heartless, Israel responded in kind resulting in killing ten times as many people as the atrocity that started the war. One crime does not justify the other.
Bernie Sanders addressed the issue today, far better than I can. He talks about the situation for 25 minutes and it is well worth watching.
scipan
(3,041 posts)womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)The official number is 14,800 now but they believe the number of dead under the rubble is closer to 5,000.
There is now a high divide in the Dem party with the youth - no longer getting their news from the mainstream news shows but delving deeper into sources from all over the world on the net.
Hamas is not going to be eliminated- Netanyahu has killed/arrested 1500 to 2000 of the 30,000 Hamas fighters. Let’s see - Netanyahu will probably have to kill 300,000 Palestinians to get them all.
brush
(61,033 posts)One probable and good thing is that Netanyahu will not be in power to long as he's tremendously unpopular in Israel, not just for his corruption and trying to rig the court system in his favor, but also for the horrendous failure to detect and move to combat the Oct. 7 attack.
IMO he'll either be forced out or US and international uproar will bring the bombings to a halt because of all the civilian deaths, and thus a cease-fire.
The killing can't continue.
womanofthehills
(10,988 posts)?si=Dlz5EaQ-L-xmYLWA
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)I've asked time an again what the alternatives to this conflict is and all I hear is indignant chest beating.
Hamas has to go. If there is a better way to make them go, I'm all ears. A return to the status quo is simply not acceptable.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)A fact the OP and others here never bring up.
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Sounds like they just stopped the ceasefire. They aren’t very smart.
Alpeduez21
(2,053 posts)After forcing the hospital staff to leave at gunpoint. For the decomposing bodies to found during this ceasefire. DECOMPOSING BABIES!! That is an Israeli legacy. One of the prisoners released by Israel is a 17 year old girl. She has been held for NINE years. She was throw in a military prison with no trial when she was 8. But yeah this all started on Oct 7.
It is not Hamas that killed Palestinians trying to return to their homes in the north of Gaza to see the destruction wrought upon their lives by Israel.
I am damn sick and tired of Israel getting the ok to treat Palestinians with torture and death simply because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Perhaps you’re ok with Israel behaving like terrorists. I will continue hold Israel to a higher standard as a member of the UN and being a sovereign state.
Many may not be aware of this but wishing Israel stopped committing war crimes is not condoning Hamas.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)and that is why so many excuse Israel of its campaign of terror on the entire population of Gaza, no matter the age or circumstance.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)and that is why so many excuse or attempt to justify Hamas
of its campaign of terror on the entire population of Israel, no matter the age or circumstance.
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)out of existence is the result of that propaganda. You use semantics and seem to leave out the human cost of an entire segment of our civilization.
Cha
(319,076 posts)
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)For the claim
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)The Teller report is rated mixed on accuracy and IIEC the doctor they quote is the same one the blamed the damage a PIJ rocket hitting the hospital on an Israeli airstrike.
Middle East Eye has a higher rating, but they note in the article "which Middle East Eye has not been able to independently verify ".
As we have seen false reports and AI produced imagery I will withhold accepting or denying the story, at this time.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)If there had been decomposed babies in the hospital the UN would have shown them. The UN is not exactly a friend to Israel. No evidence was ever offered that the story was true.
It's propaganda and it's disappointing to see on DU.
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)When it was claimed the IDF said they found 44 beheaded babies, the outcry of propaganda was immediate. Even though the IDF never made such a claim.
Logically it makes no sense that the IDF would simply abandon a half dozen babies and leave them to be found.
I am interested to see if this story develops or fades away.
TwilightZone
(28,836 posts)They're a news aggregator with poor sourcing. They don't publish their own content. Any items they post shouldn't be considered valid unless independently verified or corroborated.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)They had the resources to save them. They had the responsibility to move them out of harm's way in the first place. They deprived the incubated babies of both, and boasted about doing so.
Igel
(37,535 posts)Or Japan that bombed Hiroshima.
And yet, the bombers of Dresden and Hiroshima were not the aggressors, those that triggered the warfare that led to the bombings.
There's a tendency to say that choices only have consequences for some, while others are poor and pitiful and surely can't be held accountable to the same standards as others, their inferiors, whatever they may do. This strikes me as ... a 2x4 would.
Is "anti-civilizational" a word?
DontBelieveEastisEas
(1,211 posts)No matter who started the war.
Even if it might have taken months to negotiate a surrender while explaining and proving the ability of the Nuclear Bombs.
Perhaps a truce while these months played out?
Dresden, I don't know as much about, but I do believe the Germans were in perpetual retreat for much of the latter part of the war.
I base that belief on the stories my father told me of his days on the front lines.
ColinC
(11,098 posts)tritsofme
(19,900 posts)and hiding behind their civilians as human shields, trying to maximize their deaths. Was I wrong?
LeftInTX
(34,294 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)The OP is deliberately vague in assigning blame. Are we now conditioned to automatically associate "war crimes" and "genocide" with Israel?
Hmmm... I wonder how THAT happened...
TwilightZone
(28,836 posts)The OP's frequent posting history on the subject also makes it pretty clear.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)I also noticed that the OP implies guilt on Israel's part every time he mentions war casualties in Gaza, without as much as mentioning Israel by name, even though Hamas is the only party that publicly admitted to war crimes, including using civilians in Gaza as human shields.
Generally speaking, why is any reference to war casualties automatically presumed by so many people to amount to Israel's complicity in war crimes without any evidence to back it up, when international law is clear that war crimes and war casualties are not one and the same?
How did THAT happen?
TwilightZone
(28,836 posts)Even when the reality of the situation is immensely more complicated than that.
Some don't seem to be that knowledgeable about the terms they use. Genocide, war crimes, treason, etc. Or maybe they do understand and it's just easier to use them as shortcuts rather than expound on (or defend) why the terms would be applicable.
And some of it is willful ignorance. It's easier to defend one's position if one ignores any evidence that contradicts it. That's been a pretty common theme since the start in October. Not just here, but everywhere.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Maybe you don't know what started this latest war?
ColinC
(11,098 posts)Murdering civilians -unless trying to punish the civilian population, has nothing to do with fighting terrorism
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Not one bomb would have been dropped on Gaza, not one person there killed, save for the sadistic murder spree Hamas indulged itself in on October 7. From which, it may be added, its killers returned to thunderous applause from the home front....
ColinC
(11,098 posts)If so, please explain to me how murdering thousands of civilians helps fight terrorism.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)It mostly means violence meant to advance a political aim the speaker deplores. Quite legitimate uses of military force have been dubbed terrorism by an opponent.
Hamas is an armed body devoted to atrocity in furtherance of genocidal and theocratic aspirations.
Your thoughts on how this corps of sadistic murderers could best be dealt with would be welcome....
ColinC
(11,098 posts)Why is the general population of Gaza being murdered by Israel instead of Hamas?
Or perhaps you believe that “linear time” is a clear justification to murder civilians in retaliation for civilians being killed by a relatively small group of militants?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Tell me how you think the course you advise will achieve the liquidation of Hamas.
And for trim, you might explain a few odd elements of the line you suggested above.
Is Hamas the de facto governing power in Gaza?
Is Hamas actively engaged in violence it proclaims embodies Palestinian resistance to Israel?
Is resistance to Israel widely popular among the people of Gaza?
Are you aware of any war in human history where only the military personnel fielded by a government comes to harm, and no others?
Do you consider Hamas not to be bound by the body of law we are mostly agreed Israel ought to be following?
"Enquiring minds want to know!"
ColinC
(11,098 posts)The issue is why you think Israel SHOULD be targeting and murdering civilians.
debm55
(60,612 posts)
The conflation and obfuscation of the reality -and trivializing the deaths of innocent people, is clear in his “points.”
Again: why do you think Israel is justified in murdering and targeting civilians? What’s interesting is nobody is denying they are doing this but somehow seem intent in defending it as the right thing to do.
Israel has lots of options, and they chose the only one that seems to maximize the death of innocent civilians. That is barbaric, horrifyingly unjustified and disgusting. Nobody, not one person anywhere should be justifying or defending it.
Yet you are.
It’s disgusting.
debm55
(60,612 posts)You also failed to answer the question that The Magistrate asked you.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Because the honest answers would have been 'Yes' to the first three, and 'No' to the last two.
The question he posed is readily enough answered. He is well aware why Israeli armed forces are engaged in Gaza in an effort to liquidate Hamas, and his certainty they are 'targeting civilians' is a pre-formed thing, owing to his personal and political views alone rather than any awareness of the situation he comments on.
ColinC
(11,098 posts) EX500rider
(12,583 posts)Is that why they call Gazan's and beg them to move out of the way of the bombs, so they "maximize the death of innocent civilians"
Seems to me that would have the opposite effect, and I can't think of any other attacking force who does that in war.
The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.
It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.
He'd been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.
He'd heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. "You need to escape," somebody in the street shouted, "because they will bomb the towers".
As he left his building and crossed the road, looking for a safe place, his phone lit up.
It was a call from a private number.
"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud.
That call would last more than an hour - and it would be the most terrifying call of his life.
Yes, Israel just wants to kill civilians, right?
More of the story @ BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
recovering_democrat
(301 posts)No person and no government has any excuse for torture. No exceptions.
Lonestarblue
(13,480 posts)Comparing the murders of 1200 Jews by Hamas as genocide to the 14,000 murders of innocent Palestinians by Israel is not reality. Both are heinous crimes against humanity.
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)Hamas is NOT Palestine. Supporting Palestinian human beings does not make me or anyone else a Hamas supporter.
NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)It didn’t make much difference in German cities like Hamburg, Dresden, and Berlin.
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)You are cold hearted.
NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)For the record, I did neither. Only 40% of Weimar Republic Germans voted for the Nazi party before they seized power. That 60% majority paid an awful price for their governments choices, even though they themselves were not part of the Nazi party.
If Trump had started a World war, you and I would pay the same price potentially, despite neither of us supporting him or being a member of his party.
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)Have a great day!
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)You made a completely unnecessary post declaring that Palestinians in general and support for Palestine more generally. Fair enough. The reply was just pointing out that same situation existed in Germany...
It's accurate. And yes, I think Hamas is as bad as the Nazis... just not in the position to do what they'd like to do.
Lots of "Palestine Supporters" seem oddly reluctant to loudly repudiate Hamas. I think that's worth pointing out. That's not to say they support Hamas, but I expect many are reluctant to repudiate Hamas regularly because they think it will undermine their position. In my experience on this forum, there haven't been any practical alternatives to this conflict suggested for removing Hamas from power. I expect many calling for an immediate permanent ceasefire would be fine with Hamas staying in power, and acknowledging how awful Hamas really is makes that position far less teneable.
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)was under the age of 18 in Nazi Germany. I believe that there were many above age adults who held they tongues and supported or ignored the Nazis as they killed millions.
NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)The situation sucks, but the parallels are there. It comes down to whether or not you believe Jews deserve a nation/homeland of their own as desired by virtually all peoples worldwide. If you don’t, then no acts of self-defense will ever be seen as justified.
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)But what I believe is that it was a convenient way for the PTB to keep all the possessions and homes and lives of European Jews. True repatriation would have been to rebuild their homes and return their possessions and to give them the life that they had. Until the Nazis, I don't remember a clamor from Jewish people for their own homeland that would displace millions of people who had lived on the land for hundreds of years, maybe even thousands.
But I'm not in charge, so we have what is here but I'm firmly in the humanity camp and I don't see either Hamas or Netenyahoo giving a damn about human needs and dignity.
NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)It was a variation of the nationalism that emerged in the 19th century, a powerful ideology that would unify both Germany and Italy and ultimately start WWI. It exploded after WW2, but most of the kibbutz’s attacked were formed in the late 19th century to early 20th century.
WhiteTara
(31,260 posts)It seems on the face, that they would target the beginning of their end. But I'm not a geopolitical expert and my heart just breaks for the misery of all. Suffering is Suffering.
edisdead
(3,396 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)The aim was to degrade their MIC which included infrastructure like factories but also to kill or maim those who made ammo, tanks etc. in the hope that it would shorten the war. Unfortunately that also meant a lot of people who wanted nothing to do with Hitler also dying, as you mentioned in a post down thread.
And Even Dresden, which revisionists often tout as evidence of allied war crimes, had a very significant rail hub that in any wartime scenario would be a likely target.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)Germany suffered horribly under the rules for a war that they didn't really start. Serbia and Austria started the war.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Let's not excuse in group backlash as oppression, that is text book Russia's main reasoning for attacking Ukraine... the "we're being put on by those people after we gave them stuff" (aka some form of freedom) excuse.
Fact not in dispute : Germany was not oppressed by Europe before the Nazis came the economic reparations demands ended before Hitler came to power.
bad analogy to what's happening in Gaza
NutmegYankee
(16,478 posts)It is only your opinion that this is a bad analogy. Myself and others disagree with your opinion.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)The punitive terms of the Treaty of Versailles absolutely contributed to the rise of the Nazis. That’s broadly acknowledged. Not all that different really.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... stepped in economically before Hitler came to power.
To argue Germany was economically oppressed relative to the rest of Europe after losing a war isn't stating facts
Fuckin can't believe I'm arguing with people over whether Germans were "oppressed" before the Nazis on DU
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)I'd advise you actually read up on it.
But hey... you seem to know it all already.
There is ZERO doubt the Treaty of Versailles contributed to at least the sense in Germany that they were being crushed by the
terms of the treaty. People like Hitler leveraged this impression, whether true or not, building resentment that led to support for the Nazi party. Hitler added the spice of Antisemitism that had been boiling in Europe for centuries... plenty of people anxious to blame the Jews for anything and everything, then, as now (and no, I am NOT talking about you passive aggressively).
Likewise, people like Hamas have leveraged actual injustives against the Palestinian people to blame all the ills of Gaza on the Jews as well. So... Hamas redirects infrastructure aid to build tunnels and buy guns but blames Israel for poor conditions in the refugee "camps." And a significant segment of the Palestinian people buy in to that BS narrative.
Maybe you can't (or don't want) to see the parallels, but they are pretty crystal clear to me. Extremists have always been able to leverage resentment for their own benefit.
Darwins_Retriever
(949 posts)If you were the PM of Israel, what would you have done after Oct 7? Just shrug your shoulders and say "bad things happen, oh well what can I do" I agree Bibi is evil, but what would a liberal government have done? Negotiate with a group that doesn't honor any agreement unless it would lead to the eradication of Israel. Just tell us what your plan as PM on Oct 7.
Darwins_Retriever
(949 posts)If you were the PM of Israel, what would you have done after Oct 7? Just shrug your shoulders and say "bad things happen, oh well what can I do" I agree Bibi is evil, but what would a liberal government have done? Negotiate with a group that doesn't honor any agreement unless it would lead to the eradication of Israel. Just tell us what your plan as PM on Oct 7.
bottomofthehill
(9,390 posts)flat as a pancake
If a drug cartel from Mexico that was protected by the Mexican government came across the rio grand, killed 40,000 Americans, took 1500 hostages when leaving, how far into Brazil to you think US troops would have chased them and how scorched do you think the earth would be. Hamas is shit
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)I am not certain what you meant, but it came across as leaving Hamas out of consideration for the suffering of the Palestinian civilians. My apologies if that was not your intention.
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)So hopefully they will call an end to this.
Yes, it is up to them. They wanted this. It has been up to them since October 7.
claudette
(5,455 posts)Doing the bombing. How can they stop it?
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)claudette
(5,455 posts)Bibi said that there will be no ceasefire ever until Hamas is gone. See how that works.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)IIRC he also said no pause and yet…here we are. See how that works.
claudette
(5,455 posts)be the same conditions if as you say Hamas releases ALL prisoners. Bibi will keep up the bombing. As of now. Unless the same world can stop him.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)Since we’re now in the business of predicting future actions with certainty…try this on.
Bibi is out of a job within 7 days of all hostages being returned so his intention to keep bombing, if true, will be as influential as yours and mine in determining Israel’s military and/or political actions. 
claudette
(5,455 posts)going by what is reported he said. If the next leader is different then we can hope
Bettie
(19,704 posts)what's likely is that Netanyahu will leave, the right wing parties will all work together on his behalf and he'll be back in a week...if he leaves at all.
claudette
(5,455 posts)disheartening. It's like trying to get rid of the orange criminal we have here! They just won't go away!
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)…his political career is toast. That’s not scientific polling but it’s from a pretty good range of the political spectrum.
The does not mean Israel will shift back to a left wing coalition government…only that Bibi won’t be part of it.
There’s no coming back from this for him, nor should there be.
Bettie
(19,704 posts)and he always gets back in. He is adored by the extreme right wing and they have an outsize influence.
Think about how many times he's come back already. I'm not holding my breath, I don't expect him to go anywhere.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)...I think this is the cat's 10th life.
I don't disagree that he's resurfaced several/many times...each time cobbling together a coalition further and further to the right.
But we'll see - you could be right. It'll surprise me given that 10/7 has stirred political energy among many previously disconnected non-voters...and they're not fans of his to say the least. But I've been surprised at least twice (and that's just today) so I guess anything can happen.
tritsofme
(19,900 posts)claudette
(5,455 posts)Surrender to a life in a state run by Israel? Probably won’t happen. The world is waking up to the cruelty of Bibi and he is losing support
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)tritsofme
(19,900 posts)Until Israel destroys them.
But surrender and disarmament are also options.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)That was your question, wasn't it?
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)has a right to exist - and to stop committing acts of war against it?
kelly1mm
(5,756 posts)attacks and the rest of Hamas goes into exile/retirement in Qatar or some other country that will take them.
See! Easy peasy!
claudette
(5,455 posts)you. This slaughter in Gaza is breeding many more generations of Palestinians who will never forget this.
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)
justaprogressive
(6,909 posts)as in not remembering it, and therefore condemned to repeat it. paraphrasing
George's famous quote...
BannonsLiver
(20,595 posts)Though I doubt it. Anyway, I reject the framing in the OP. The blame Israel all the time for everything framing.
Sympthsical
(10,969 posts)Oh.
But I guess we don't mean them. Otherwise, something might be said about it occasionally.
Which it is not.
Wednesdays
(22,602 posts)I can dream, can't I?
Zincwarrior
(73 posts)What about the thousand dead?
Butterflylady
(4,584 posts)11,000 Palestinian deaths, mostly women and children.
Oh I finally get it. Your 1,000 are more important where the 11,000 Palestinians are sub-human and to a lot, disposable.
NO I am not supporter of any group of terrorists where ever they are. But I a human being and I don't agree with killing anyone.
There is one thing I don't understand. How is it that for 2 years or more Hamas took to plan the attack and no one, no one leaked anything and Israel didn't know anything they were planning. Where was Israeli intelligence?
malaise
(296,103 posts)While we live this nightmare
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)dembotoz
(16,922 posts)
W_HAMILTON
(10,333 posts)...wouldn't still be October 7th, when Hamas started this war by killing over a thousand people in Israel.
Words have meaning and what is going on in Gaza is not genocide -- it is war.
Hamas should release the hostages, surrender immediately, and step down from all political power and let other Gazan leaders negotiate an end to this war.
Cha
(319,076 posts)you don't invade a country and Rape, Butcher, Mutilate Torture 1200 Innocents and Snatch Hostages from their homes.. and not expect to start a fucking WAR.
HAMAS should have prepared Better.. got their civilians out of the way.. they knew the Bombs were coming . Israel Warned them.. That's something HAMAS NEVER DID.
If Hamas was hoping Israel would lay down and roll over they were Shit Out of Luck.
Hamas started this shit.. they don't care about Palestinians .. they expect Israel to protect them while they go on their Charter Mission of Killing All the Israelis.. Wipe them OFF the Map.
republianmushroom
(22,326 posts)All depends on what side of the fence you are on.
The Tiniest Human Shield
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18487834
Three hostages were KILLED in captivity
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218489304
Stark images of murder and torture in Israel leave US Senators in tears and silence.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218489399
Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)I agree that nothing justifies it. Nothing.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)Unjustified wars of aggression, both of them!
Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)But we are a much more connected society today than we were 158 years ago or 77 years ago. It's barbaric and no longer hidden by distance and time.
I understand your analogy of instances of being pulled into a war by unwarranted attacks. The United States was under attack by Southern insurrectionists and traitors bent on overturning our government. I have no doubt war crimes were committed by soldiers on both sides of the Civil War: The American Union soldiers and the Confederate insurrectionists.
The same with WWII in response to an unprovoked massacre at Pearl Harbor, Oahu, HI by the Japanese. Our response to Hitler and Germany was warranted, but the dropping of the Atomic bombs on Japan is still debated today.
That said, what's happening is GAZA is revolting and should be to any rational, moral human.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)dragging up WWll and the Civil War where the winners have written the history.
In this war, there will be no winners, just over-kill and eventual war crime judgments towards both sides.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)My mother "lived" here at the time.
Was this "genocide?" Of course not. What nonsense.
stopdiggin
(15,463 posts)and without any real definition or accuracy - that they have lost much of their meaning.
It's largely a war of propaganda (both within the sphere of conflict - and without among 'supporters') and the participants are well aware of this.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)Is this a "shit happens" defense?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)The relevant question is why should one particular instance of shit happening draw greater notice by far than others do.
Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)in real time! It doesn't take hours, or weeks, or even years to find out about it. And if you see two unarmed Palistinian boys shot almost when it happened on the nightly news ( last night), it's VASTLY different than reading a white-washed version of an incident that's been printed in the paper, or a book, or reported on the radio.
For example, Walter Cronkite finally showing what was really happening in Viet Nam on his news show, with young Dan Rather in fatigues moving with the troops. This is what turned the public against the war. It was horrific, and no one else showed us any of it, except Cronkite after going there and seeing for himself.
Shit doesn't NEED to happen. Only when we're ignorant.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Dropped them in the alley, but he's looking under the lamp-post 'cause the light's better there.
That things can be recorded and quickly broadcast does nothing to answer the question posed. The question is why the cameras are pointed to one instance and not to another.
Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)But I expect your reluctance stems from an inability to articulate safely why routine massacres on-going in Sudan or Ethiopia, for example, don't seem to draw much notice.
Greybnk48
(10,724 posts)start a completely new discussion.
"Whataboutism's" are instances of faulty reasoning, not dodging an issue. This, despite the fact that what is ongoing in Ethiopia and Sudan is extremely important, or should be.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Why thing A draws great attention while a blind eye is turned to things W, X, Y, and Z is very much part of discussing thing A.
Clearly you seem to consider this thing of far more importance than anything else, judging by your frequency of comment on it, and paucity of comment on the rest.
Tell me why.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)… that civilian deaths are not automatically war crimes or genocide.
That doesn’t make anything “okay” but hyperbole and downright propaganda doesn’t help anything.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
Duncan Grant
(8,920 posts)Compare and contrast left/center discussion with right-wing discussion.
“ We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children.” - President Carter
In October, President Biden said Hamas doesn’t represent the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza.
I’m having trouble understanding why the policies of the most right-wing government in Israel’s history has so many cheerleaders telling left/center people how wrong they are about — everything. Even more tiring is the idea that right-wing talking points are correct and irrefutable.
I support the right of all people to live in safety and peace. The left/center way to get there is through justice and reconciliation — not through fear, death and authoritarian control.
malaise
(296,103 posts)Seriously
yardwork
(69,364 posts)Duncan, you know I have a lot of respect for you. I'm listening and trying to understand your point of view. Now, let me try to explain my point of view.
There might be cheerleaders for Israel's current government on DU, but I'm certainly not one of them and neither are many other posters who want the world to remember the attacks on October 7.
My concerns are twofold: I'm seeing a lot of antisemitic phrases and tropes. It's entirely possible to criticize Israel and its leaders without using well-established antisemitic language. I call it out when I see it. (Objective, non-antisemitic criticism of Israel and its policies are posted here often. I've posted such myself.) Another form of antisemitism is ignoring the pain and suffering of Israelis. It's important for us to recognize everybody's suffering, not just that of one group. This I/P issue didn't start last month, and it's not going to be easy to solve. There's fear, suffering, rage, and a desire for revenge on many sides.
Second, I'm seeing efforts to turn people away from supporting Biden in 2024 because of this issue. That's familiar - we saw it in 2016. I think Biden's doing a great job with an incredibly difficult situation.
I'm going to continue calling out antisemitism when I see it, and also I'm calling out efforts to depress enthusiasm and support for Biden.
I respect you greatly and hope we can find common ground on this.
Duncan Grant
(8,920 posts)I’ve never thought of you as a RW cheerleader or parrot. You’d be terrible at it! We really are more in agreement than not.
This situation will be with us all for awhile longer (understatement of the year) so, I’m going to sit thoughtfully with what you’ve told me. There’s plenty of time to parse the details soon. ☮️
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Would respond to such atrocities as Hamas committed against its people on October 7 in any manner measurably different than what the present government in Israel has done.
It is not a left/right issue, just a 'which side are you on?' question. I can't see much reason for a person on the left to oppose a democratic, more or less secular government whose domestic policies are well to the left of those in the United States, or to lend the least countenance to a body of fundamentalist fanatics who have openly declared genocidal intentions, made clear they will commit atrocity in furtherance of them, and intend a theocratic order little different from that of Iran or Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan's Taliban once they've killed or driven out all the Jews.
"So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot."
Duncan Grant
(8,920 posts)My side is justice and reconciliation. A left-wing ideology, btw.
We’re gazing into a stack of broken mirrors, each thinking we see the same thing. We don’t.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)People ought to be careful demanding justice; few would find receipt of it comfortable.
Reconciliation can only occur once a sufficient time has passed in peace each side can trust the other has in fact forsworn violence against it. No party shows any sign of commitment to the necessary preliminaries.
Accurate description, of events and motives and of likely outcomes of actions undertaken, has nothing to do with support or disapproval, or even with right or wrong. It's tempting to see the world you want reflected in the world around you. It's something one must learn to correct for, like the refraction of water when seeking to stab a fish. It would be nice if the 'resistance' of Arab Palestine was not a shabby tale of stupidity and race hate stretching a century and more, and was instead an inspiring example of the indomitable human spirit, and a vanguard of global liberation. But it is what it is. Addicts ought not to be encouraged in their destructive follies, and this applies equally to those addicted to revenge and hate as it does to those addicted to narcotic drugs.
I've made what side I take in this clear, and why you imagine me opposed to Messers. Biden and Carter in the matter escapes me.
question everything
(52,134 posts)killing a woman while raping her?
Putting babies in ovens and then setting the houses on fire?
What kind of a one sided comment is it?
Perhaps more should watch this footae
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218490187
czarjak
(13,639 posts)
enid602
(9,685 posts)How many members of Hamas’s governmental hierarchy have been captured or neutralized during this little excursion? I can remember IDF claiming a couple, but subsequent proof has not been forthcoming.
Seems the current Israeli approach to Gaza is only contributing to the pressure cooker that is modern day Gaza.
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)One side wants more babies slaughtered for vengeance. It's not enough yet that 5500 kids were killed. Their rage isn't slaked. They have well thought-out rationalizations for more death & destruction & more punishment for their captive population. These are liberals?
Captain Stern
(2,253 posts)Israel is trying to prevent the deaths of more Israeli civilians. They are trying to destroy an organization who just killed 1200 Israelis, and has announced they intend to kill many more.
Unfortunately, in war civilians die. But Israel's government's duty is to protect Israeli civilians, not Palestinian ones. Protecting Palestinian civilians is Hamas' job, and they've said they aren't going to do it.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)EX500rider
(12,583 posts)It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.
He'd been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.
He'd heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. "You need to escape," somebody in the street shouted, "because they will bomb the towers".
As he left his building and crossed the road, looking for a safe place, his phone lit up.
It was a call from a private number.
"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud.
That call would last more than an hour - and it would be the most terrifying call of his life.
Yes, Israel just wants to kill civilians, right?
More of the story @ BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
EX500rider
(12,583 posts)I will wait while you find me the war where zero civilian's died.
Then I will wait even longer while you find me one where the attacking force calls you and warns you to leave before the bombing.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)
DBoon
(24,983 posts)debm55
(60,612 posts)elderly were killed, women were raped , buildings, stores, places of worships gone. I don't post here very often. But I do read the threads and there was no outrage as I am seeing now. Not to this extinct. There is something going on that I can't put my finger on for these daily postings and riots and marches. I saw no riots for the people of Ukraine. I saw no posting wars on a website. Maybe I can put my finger on it.
I've never seen this kind of focus on civilian war deaths. Never seen a U.S. president held responsible for other countries' wars.
As others here have said, HAMAS has one hell of a public relations machine.
debm55
(60,612 posts)for you--is there a forum to discuss these matters? Perhaps it can be looked into and let them have at it.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)It's being allowed in GD for now because it's a big topic.
You might want to check out the DU I/P forum. There are strict rules about what's allowed, and the hosts in that group are very wise and experienced.
debm55
(60,612 posts)Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)The U.S. (well, except for some treasonous far right Republicans) is supporting and arming Ukraine, not the aggressor and invader, Russia.
In this scenario, we are arming and supporting the IDF, which is leveling a lot of parts of Gaza and killing many, many innocents. That's why there are so many protests against the U.S. government's policies when it comes to Israel.
And of course the outrage includes longstanding anger at the way Israel has treated the Palestinian people like shit for decades.
And yes I understand Hamas is a murderous terrorist group that also committed unspeakable atrocities to start off this horrific current battle.
But it's definitely not analogous to compare our support of Ukraine with our support of the Israeli government/IDF.
debm55
(60,612 posts)lives of all people. Babies were killed in the Ukraine by Russian missiles. I might have seen a post or two about it here and poof it was gone. War no matter where or with what countries involved is hell.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)there are so many protests against US collaboration with Israel is that Israel’s response is seen to be excessive and genocidal and comes after decades of Israeli oppression of Palestinians? Also Netanyahu is a corrupt, right wing piece of shit who deserves to be locked in prison with Trump and Putin.
In Ukraine, we’re helping the good guys fight against a murderous regime. There is little ambiguity there. Only far right extremists and delusional tankies who believe that Russia “felt threatened” by Ukraine are on Putin’s side.
Neither Israel nor Palestine nor Hamas nor the IDF nor the PLO, etc. is blameless in this putrid never-ending mess in the Middle East.
debm55
(60,612 posts)Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)and his intention of stealing the entire autonomous country of Ukraine and the Russian forces murder of untold thousands of Ukrainians and the leveling of many of its towns.
Conversely, we're helping Israel carry out a genocidal mission against Gaza, and thousands, including many children/teens, are being slaughtered.
As I said, the two situations are in no way comparable in terms of where the US is landing with its support and arms and funding.
yardwork
(69,364 posts)We have issues of our own that don't get nearly the same attention. There's a humanitarian crisis on our southern border. Where are dozens of OPs about that?
Posters mention Native Americans. Where are the OPs on missing murdered Native women? Where are OPs on the dismal health and economic status of Native Americans? Is that Israel's fault, too?
Internationally, where was the outrage when the United States abandoned the Kurds to actual genocide by Syria? A couple of days of handwringing on DU and then forgotten.
I could go on. We give billions to African nations with miserable human rights records. Where's the outrage?
It's fashionable to be pro-Palestine right now. Just fashion and posturing.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)U.S. policies, including its shitty foreign policy, which has traditionally put U.S. corporate interests above all else, including human rights.
On the other hand, the fact that there are many U.S. abuses of power and horrible international policies and a long record of overthrowing governments worldwide that dared to disobey U.S. corporate hegemony doesn't undermine the fact that so many around the world are furious with the way our country has enabled Israel's outrageous and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people for decades. And now it is slaughtering them en masse and leveling many parts of Gaza.
The anger in this specific context is very understandable.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Not Israel? That’s really beyond dispute.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)Israel could have stepped back and plotted a smart, rational, strategic retaliation and hostage recovery. Instead, they chose to instantly start bombing the shit out of Gaza, leveling much of it into rubble and committing genocide against many thousands of innocents, including babies and children. And that's why the vast majority of the world is outraged at Israel's actions.
LeftInTX
(34,294 posts)
kelly1mm
(5,756 posts)perpetrators/planners of the Oct. 7th massacre, and the remainder of Hamas go into exile/retirement in Qatar or some other country willing to take them.
But they don't.
Because they feel their cause is righteous and they don't care how many innocent Palestinians die in the process.
Question for anyone caring to answer: Why doesn't Hamas just surrender under the terms listed above?
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)But Hamas is comprised of child murderers and cowards, so they won’t. And some folks will continue to blame Israel, which is appalling.
JT45242
(4,043 posts)Netanyahu and his government have violated conventions of war toward civilians.
Hamas and their leaders have violated conventions of war toward civilians.
I weep for the innocent victims of both sides and can condemn the two government/quasi government leaders for using civilian as pawns.
It is not either or this is a both and situation that is at least 20 years of Netanyahu and his party and Hamas leadership escalating.
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)One is international law. The second is humanitarian outcry.
The OP lumps them together and makes no distinction between war casualties and war crimes. This kind of rhetoric only goes so far until it gets rightfully pushed against.
Oneironaut
(6,299 posts)And then hope that Israel’s neighbors just let it happen. Then, install a Democratic government to control the population and dismantle Hamas. Otherwise, there will never be peace and Hamas will keep firing rockets and killing Jews.
Hamas treats Palestinians as disposable pawns. Annexing Gaza is that area’s only hope of Democracy.
moniss
(9,056 posts)supporters claiming there was a "peace"/ceasefire between the sides in Gaza prior to 10/7. That is nonsense. Here is an article from events in January. All of this is well after the supposed ceasefire from their major efforts to attack each other from August of 2022.
Also an article about them going at each other in 2022 and it is noteworthy that the major operation by the IDF then was ordered by rogue elements in government leadership without discussion or approval by the Cabinet. So people need to stop this nonsense that there was some sort of ceasefire between the parties that was being honored. Just because parties in conflict claim to have one doesn't mean the reality has one.
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/27/1152024481/israel-gaza-rockets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_clashes#:~:text=The%202022%20Gaza%E2%80%93Israel%20clashes%20code-named%20as%20Operation%20Breaking,militants%20fired%20approximately%201%2C100%20rockets%20towards%20Israel.
SKKY
(12,801 posts)...humble opinion, Netanyahu has not been very strategic about his. Israeli intelligence was caught off guard by the Hamas attack, so I think he's trying to over-compensate in some way. Israel needs to defend itself, no doubt, but I'm not sure they're going about it the right way.
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 4, 2023, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)
Israel gave warning. I think that question has to be answered before we know the full truth?
Regardless, Hamas slaughtered innocents without any warning. Israels response - bombing Gaza to shreds, without apparent regard for civilians is also tragic. The primary difference is that Hamas targeted innocent people. Israel is targeting Hamas.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...but the evidence is saying they are targeting Gaza civilians.
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)population. They're also occupying tunnels under hospitals etc. It's a brilliant strategy, if you care more about PR than your fellow Palestinians.
enid602
(9,685 posts)Hiding behinds human shields is incredibly cowardly. So is bombing the living crud out of a people while hiding behind an ‘iron dome’ that is being financed by an ally that is begging Jerusalem to ‘cool it.’
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)The comparison is pretty weak. I’m sorry to say.
JI7
(93,616 posts)far more than Israel gets .
You seem resentful that Israel actually uses the money towards things to help protect their people .
leftstreet
(40,680 posts)
lees1975
(7,046 posts)Don't forget about that, and be as angry about it as you are about Gaza.
David__77
(24,728 posts)Those with no voting or civil rights.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Hamas should allow fair and free elections in Gaza.
I can't think of anywhere else you would expect them to cast votes.
David__77
(24,728 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Perhaps to the routine desecration of synagogues and Jewish graveyards there while the neighborhood was occupied by Jordan for nigh on twenty years?
It's not directly relevant to the on-going military operation in Gaza, or for that matter to the spree of sadistic murder Hamas indulged itself in on October 7, if that matters at all in your view.
Or perhaps we could talk about the murder and torturous imprisonment of young women for going bare-headed in Iran.
Or the genuine, slow-motion genocides on-going in Sinkiang and Tibet.
Maybe some close examination of why you've not heard anything at all lately about the Tamil Tigers.
It's a big, wide, wild world out there beyond local quarrels in the Levant....
SYGDeb
(84 posts)And nothing ever will justify it.
But the powers that be will get away with it.
They always do.
Sad tale to tell......
People are violently....forcibly... removed from land they have lived on for decades.
Sobbing people...begging....pleading...
with their children in their arms... carrying whatever they could grab at the last minute.
And the world turns a deaf ear to this.
To all this pain.
The world tells them to shut up.
To just get out.
No one cares.
Violently...physically...removed from their own homes.
Homes.
Homes that are just as important to them...as anyone else's home is to anyone else. To everyone else.
Homes where people live and laugh and love.
Where they raise their children.
Where they love their children... just as much as anyone else loves their children.
Home....where they celebrate births...and mourn the passing of their loved ones.
Where they live their lives.
And their lives are just as precious to them...as ours are to us.
And other people take everything on that land that is of value ...and stick it in their pocket...with no reimbursement.
Ever.
And "the powers that be".....elected officials...laugh about it...when people ask..."Why?"
Scenes like this repeated day after day after day.
And when children throw stones at armed military convoys....they are held indefinitely...charged with nothing.
Secret evidence...and no due process...and secret charges
They are held forever.
On land where they once lived...when they march for peace and justice...it is decided they are terrorists......and they are gunned down.
When people are met with injustice..when they are met with violence...and with brutality.. ..that is exactly how they will respond.
With injustice...with violence and brutality.
And the world continues to turn.....
Sal_NV
(606 posts)I ask because reading your post reeks of it.
debm55
(60,612 posts)uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... to be asked here.
tritsofme
(19,900 posts)Hard to describe it as anything else.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... Is poisonous within itself?
Sal_NV
(606 posts)I mean REALLY?
Re-read the post, it reeks of excusing HAMAS for its massacre on 10/7 and, I happened to notice, that the author of that post has failed to answer the question asked.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Sal_NV
(606 posts)I disagree, but I do it respectfully.
Goddessartist
(2,176 posts)And it's disgusting, and only reflects on them.
malaise
(296,103 posts)Rec
debm55
(60,612 posts)leave on a moments (if that) notice? I feel for the Palestinians. , but not for Hamas. Did you write posts for the Ukrainian people in need?
tusk
(8 posts)Every society.....
ever.
Goddessartist
(2,176 posts)Thank you for this.
Response to malaise (Original post)
tenderfoot This message was self-deleted by its author.
magicarpet
(18,511 posts)Occupied territories then became Israeli settlements. New Israeli settlements in the West Bank now control 60% of the land in the West Bank.
East Jerusalem was then taken over by Israel and Jerusalem declared the new Israeli capitol under full Israeli control.
Take, and take, and then take more of the lands of the Palestinians and give it Israeli settelers is not a recipe for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
Maybe it is time to have the ultra hard liner Netanyahu exit Israeli politics and have more moderate individual step forth who will construct a two state solution to achieve peace in the Middle East.
These endless and contrived hostilities are just not cutting it. How many decades do we need to study the issue ? Fair play is the foundation to a peaceful coexistence. Cheating and robbing someone blind of their lands and valuable natural resourses is a declaration of endless war and insurgency.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... not getting out of this whole thing.
Was it sold to Israel or treatied?
tia
tusk
(8 posts)If Gazians don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up & expel their Hamas oppressors, which they greatly outnumber, then they "get what they get"... We must remain vigilant in our support!
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Easily.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
Celerity
(54,407 posts)malaise
(296,103 posts)Response to malaise (Reply #231)
debm55 This message was self-deleted by its author.
malaise
(296,103 posts)Celerity knows what I meant 