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Celerity

(43,141 posts)
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 04:35 PM Dec 2023

IDF campaign in southern Gaza has created 'apocalyptic' conditions, top UN official says

Martin Griffiths says continuing offensive has ended any possibility of meaningful humanitarian operations

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/05/un-martin-griffiths-idf-campaign-southern-gaza-apocalyptic-conditions



The UN’s top aid official has said the Israeli military campaign in southern Gaza has been just as devastating as in the north, creating “apocalyptic” conditions and ending any possibility of meaningful humanitarian operations. Martin Griffiths, the UN emergency relief coordinator, said he was speaking on behalf of the entire international aid community in saying the continuing offensive had robbed aid workers of any significant means of helping the 2.3 million people of Gaza, other than to call for an immediate end to the fighting.

His comments came as the Israeli military said it had stormed southern Gaza’s main city in the most intense day of fighting so far, and hospitals struggled to cope with scores of dead and wounded Palestinians. “What we’re saying today is: that’s enough now. It has to stop,” Griffiths said in an interview with the Guardian, adding that the small amount of aid being allowed into Gaza could no longer be distributed, since the Israeli ground offensive had spread to southern Gaza and the city of Khan Younis, bringing the humanitarian operation effectively to an end.

“It isn’t really a statistically significant operation any more,” said Griffiths, who is also UN undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs. “It’s a bit of a patch on a wound and it doesn’t do the job, and it would be an illusion for the world to think that the people in Gaza can be helped by the humanitarian operation under these conditions. “This is an apocalyptic situation now, because these are the remnants of a nation being driven into a pocket in the south.”

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) launched a ground operation into northern Gaza on 27 October, 20 days after Hamas militants killed 1,200 Israelis, most of them civilians, in a cross-border attack. Israel told Palestinian civilians to move into southern Gaza for their own safety before the ground assault, but the south also remained under bombardment. After the breakdown of a week-long ceasefire on 1 December, tanks and infantry have moved into the south, focusing on Khan Younis. The IDF said its troops had reached the heart of the city on Tuesday.

snip



57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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IDF campaign in southern Gaza has created 'apocalyptic' conditions, top UN official says (Original Post) Celerity Dec 2023 OP
Hamas started the war and broke the ceasefire, they are responsible for this. tritsofme Dec 2023 #1
Hamas is responsible for breaking the cease-fire. They must be eliminated... brush Dec 2023 #2
How do you know Elind Dec 2023 #4
They've openly said the bombing has resumed in the south where they told... brush Dec 2023 #5
What's more to be said? Elind Dec 2023 #15
So - they have now killed 20,000 Palestinians womanofthehills Dec 2023 #18
Yes. AloeVera Dec 2023 #32
We've already heard from an IDF spokesman this morning that they are pleased that... brush Dec 2023 #35
IDF says... AloeVera Dec 2023 #36
Yeah, their ratio is BS. They don't care how many Palestinians they kill. brush Dec 2023 #44
Bibi is just an Israeli Trump Charging Triceratops Dec 2023 #53
Yes, and he's actually got more free reigh to carry out his inhumane policies right now because he's at war. brush Dec 2023 #54
that is so disgusting, but the worst part is the ratio is more like 10 or 20 to 1. ecstatic Dec 2023 #40
I know. Their ratio is false. They don't care how many non-combatants they kill. brush Dec 2023 #43
Where did Brush say any of that? obamanut2012 Dec 2023 #7
Neutanyu told the citizens to go Sourh womanofthehills Dec 2023 #17
Very well said obamanut2012 Dec 2023 #8
What a sad defense of the indefensible. Big Blue Marble Dec 2023 #3
If some choose to leave Hamas-run Gaza for these countries tritsofme Dec 2023 #6
Those countries aren't Elind Dec 2023 #11
The proposals floating around stipulate a large aid package. tritsofme Dec 2023 #12
"...but won't take any victims." Your words. You admit they're victims, but victims of what? It can't be anything else.. brush Dec 2023 #55
Sounds like you are advocating for forced ethnic cleansing, which (whether partial or full) is a clear war crime. Celerity Dec 2023 #14
No, I'm saying that voluntary emigration should not be obstructed tritsofme Dec 2023 #21
it is NOT voluntary if done under duress nt Celerity Dec 2023 #25
Ah... AloeVera Dec 2023 #37
I have no idea what you are going on about. Emigration is a word in the English language that has a meaning. tritsofme Dec 2023 #47
This is sick uponit7771 Dec 2023 #48
It is obvious; Gaza is their home. Big Blue Marble Dec 2023 #23
That would indeed be ethnic cleansing. The current military strategy is aligned with that approach. David__77 Dec 2023 #29
Omg. AloeVera Dec 2023 #33
seriously? Forced displacement is what you're advocating? ecstatic Dec 2023 #41
The goal Elind Dec 2023 #9
Netanyahu Plan to "Thin Out" Gaza Population to "Bare Minimum" Big Blue Marble Dec 2023 #24
Miscalculation then? AloeVera Dec 2023 #38
"Moving" AKA ethnic cleansing. David__77 Dec 2023 #10
Says the abuser to the abused al bupp Dec 2023 #34
This is unconscionable. Sky Jewels Dec 2023 #13
I'm not going to say "but Hamas". maxsolomon Dec 2023 #19
Well claudette Dec 2023 #28
surprising. maxsolomon Dec 2023 #30
I agree with that answer. At least they could see up close who they're killing ecstatic Dec 2023 #42
Yes, but claudette Dec 2023 #57
I say "Fuck Genocidal HAMAS"! Cha Dec 2023 #20
Hamas is to blame, but they have sympathizers everywhere. nt LexVegas Dec 2023 #16
You & others keep repeating the same old mantras, yet ignore the stone cold fact that Israel does NOT have a free, Celerity Dec 2023 #22
It Is Certainly True, Ma'am The Magistrate Dec 2023 #26
Yep, one Hamas goal is the eyes of the young and Bibi is helping them uponit7771 Dec 2023 #49
Yes the HAMAS Geochemical Butchers Cha Dec 2023 #31
And the numbers are made up anyway BannonsLiver Dec 2023 #50
I noticed it jumped from 14K to 20K the day after the ceasefire AZSkiffyGeek Dec 2023 #51
This is claudette Dec 2023 #27
Not sitting silently AZSkiffyGeek Dec 2023 #52
No matter how Israel responded they would be damned. The terrorists must go....sorry they are putting their GuppyGal Dec 2023 #39
Unfortunately Mossfern Dec 2023 #45
It's a hamster wheel of hell nt GuppyGal Dec 2023 #46
DURec leftstreet Dec 2023 #56

brush

(53,743 posts)
2. Hamas is responsible for breaking the cease-fire. They must be eliminated...
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 04:58 PM
Dec 2023

but the IDF is responsible for bombing innocent, non-combatant Palestinians who retreated south as the IDF told them to.

How do you bomb people in the area you told them to go?

Answer me that without the same old trope that "Hamas broke the cease-fire and are responsible for this."

Elind

(4 posts)
4. How do you know
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:30 PM
Dec 2023

How do you know and think that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, and luring them to be bombed?

brush

(53,743 posts)
5. They've openly said the bombing has resumed in the south where they told...
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:35 PM
Dec 2023

people to go. What more has to be said?

Elind

(4 posts)
15. What's more to be said?
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:17 PM
Dec 2023

They are not indiscriminately carpet bombing but are targeting Hamas locations. Are you suggesting that they should simply forget about Hamas now?

womanofthehills

(8,667 posts)
18. So - they have now killed 20,000 Palestinians
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:40 PM
Dec 2023

And killed or captured 1500 to 2000 Hamas. There are over 30,000 Hamas - do they need to kill 300,000 more children to capture more Hamas??? They bombed ambulances, UN schools, Red Cross, flattened apartments, bakeries, water pipes.

So - at your local elementary school - if a terrorist was hiding in the basement- you would not think it was fine to bomb and kill all the kids for one terrorist who might or may not be there. We would NEVER do that in America - so WHY is it ok to do to Palestinians children????

Israel has killed over 100 UN workers, hundreds of drs and nurses and bombed journalists houses killing their own families. Kids are sleeping at UN schools in the South for safety and they bombed countless UN schools killing UN workers & children.

AloeVera

(846 posts)
32. Yes.
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:40 PM
Dec 2023

We would never allow this in our countries but somehow it's OK to do to Palestinians.

This is the crux of it. Thank you.

brush

(53,743 posts)
35. We've already heard from an IDF spokesman this morning that they are pleased that...
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 09:26 PM
Dec 2023

they kill at a 2-1 ratio...that's 10 innocent, non-combatant Palestinian civilians for every 5 alleged Hamas terrorists. I repeat, THE IDF IS PLEASED TO KILL TEN INNOCENT PALESTINIANS for five alleged Hamas terrorists.

Do you think we haven't heard that out of an IDF spokesmans moiuth?

That's a good ratio for them.

So much for the alleged targeted bombing. They must be targeting whereever civiliams are to achieve their precious two to one ratio.

AloeVera

(846 posts)
36. IDF says...
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 10:47 PM
Dec 2023

What a nicely rounded, neatly tied ratio they came up with. I mean I agree with you it's bad enough, but is it believable based on the level and kinds of of destruction? I have my doubts.

Also agree "Pleased" is completely tone-deaf - at best.

brush

(53,743 posts)
44. Yeah, their ratio is BS. They don't care how many Palestinians they kill.
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 01:29 AM
Dec 2023

And there are so many haters on this board who believe everything Bibi, Likud and the IDF say. Such blood lust.

brush

(53,743 posts)
54. Yes, and he's actually got more free reigh to carry out his inhumane policies right now because he's at war.
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 11:28 AM
Dec 2023

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
40. that is so disgusting, but the worst part is the ratio is more like 10 or 20 to 1.
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 12:54 AM
Dec 2023

They are gaslighting at every turn. I'm at the point of not believing anything they have to say. How can anyone justify this shit? I'm going to have to step away before I snap and curse someone out.

womanofthehills

(8,667 posts)
17. Neutanyu told the citizens to go Sourh
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:28 PM
Dec 2023

And then bombed and killed over 900 mostly women and kids the last few days. Everyone knows Neutanyu is a super right wing evil man - why would anyone be surprised?

Bernie to the Senate -

“At a time when some 16,000 Palestinians have been killed in the last 2 months, two-thirds women and children, & 1.8 million displaced from their homes, NO. I don't think it's a good idea to hand another $10 billion to Israel's right-wing extremist government no strings attached.”
https://x.com/sensanders/status/1732128730770772071?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

Warning- very sad content from CNN -

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRvWHuua/

Big Blue Marble

(5,056 posts)
3. What a sad defense of the indefensible.
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:27 PM
Dec 2023

US bombs drop by Israeli pilots are responsible for this. The goal is to make the
strip uninhabitable. The Israeli government is in Washington right now lobbying for the US to
pay for moving most of the Gazans off their land and into refugee status in Egypt, Turkey
and Jordan

tritsofme

(17,371 posts)
6. If some choose to leave Hamas-run Gaza for these countries
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:35 PM
Dec 2023

And they are willing to take them, why should people stand in their way?

Elind

(4 posts)
11. Those countries aren't
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:49 PM
Dec 2023

They aren't willing to take them
They support Hamas directly or indirectly but won't take any victims.

brush

(53,743 posts)
55. "...but won't take any victims." Your words. You admit they're victims, but victims of what? It can't be anything else..
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 11:55 AM
Dec 2023

but of the apocalyptic conditions created by the IDF.

And why should other countries take on the responsibility of housing, feeding, clothing, hospitalizing millions of "victims of the IDG"...for who knows how long?

Or is that the whole idea, driving the Palestinians out all together?

Celerity

(43,141 posts)
14. Sounds like you are advocating for forced ethnic cleansing, which (whether partial or full) is a clear war crime.
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:01 PM
Dec 2023

tritsofme

(17,371 posts)
21. No, I'm saying that voluntary emigration should not be obstructed
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:43 PM
Dec 2023

if these countries are willing to take them.

AloeVera

(846 posts)
37. Ah...
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 10:56 PM
Dec 2023

"EMIGRATION". The word bandied about by Netyanahu himself.

Who also thinks Gazans can flee through the Rafah area currently being bombed, crawl through the tunnels or climb aboard rafts and vessels and take to the sea.

I believe you both spelled ETHNIC CLEANSING wrong.

tritsofme

(17,371 posts)
47. I have no idea what you are going on about. Emigration is a word in the English language that has a meaning.
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 04:45 AM
Dec 2023

Big Blue Marble

(5,056 posts)
23. It is obvious; Gaza is their home.
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:09 PM
Dec 2023

70% are refugees or defendants of refuges of the 1948 Nakba. They have been forced
from their homes once. They do not want to be forced out again.

The arrogance of Israel to destroy their homes and expect us to pay for relocation or
appropriately called ethnic cleansing and other countries to bare the burden of millions
of refugees.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
41. seriously? Forced displacement is what you're advocating?
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 12:56 AM
Dec 2023

SMFH

Ethnic Cleansing

Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law.

Elind

(4 posts)
9. The goal
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:38 PM
Dec 2023

How do you know this is the goal, as opposed to the stated goal of eliminating Hamas as an organization?

As to Egypt turkey and Jordan helping to protect civilians, why do you and those countries have a problem with that?

Big Blue Marble

(5,056 posts)
24. Netanyahu Plan to "Thin Out" Gaza Population to "Bare Minimum"
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:14 PM
Dec 2023
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2023/12/01/netanyahu-plan-to-thin-out-gaza-population-to-bare-minimum/

The cited newspaper that reported this story is very supportive of Netanyahu.
"Israel Hayom carries a story alleging that Bibi Netanyahu has tasked his closest political confidant,
Ron Dermer, with devising a plan that would “thin out the population of Gaza to a bare minimum.”

AloeVera

(846 posts)
38. Miscalculation then?
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 11:11 PM
Dec 2023

How are those countries going to "protect"
civilians from Israeli bombs?

Ahh you mean move the people INTO those countries for their own protection?

So soon? It didn't take long for people here to accept ethnic cleansing as some sort of noble, humanitarian effort. Or "emigration" like a nice pleasant move from one home to another.

If it wasn't the goal, you would have to believe Israel made a huge miscalculation. Do you believe that?

How about Israel just stops bombing? It's an apocalypse in Gaza already.

Sky Jewels

(7,019 posts)
13. This is unconscionable.
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 05:52 PM
Dec 2023

Genocide indeed.

For those who say, "But Hamas!..." ... Why did Netanyahu et al prop up Hamas and ignore the specific warnings about its plans?

maxsolomon

(33,252 posts)
19. I'm not going to say "but Hamas".
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:40 PM
Dec 2023

I'm going to ask you if, due to the civilian death toll, Israel should:
1. forego using air power but continue attacking Hamas using ground forces
2. cease attacking Hamas entirely and withdraw from Gaza without their 10/7 hostages released

claudette

(3,492 posts)
28. Well
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:31 PM
Dec 2023

Number 1 is the better of the two. If it means the attacks will be on Hamas members only. Maybe the Intelligence could seek and find the real culprits.

ecstatic

(32,653 posts)
42. I agree with that answer. At least they could see up close who they're killing
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 01:00 AM
Dec 2023

Hopefully not as many women and kids would be killed, although I've heard some horror stories about how the ground forces are conducting themselves.

claudette

(3,492 posts)
57. Yes, but
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 12:25 PM
Dec 2023

I wonder if all the horrible things happening on the ground in Gaza ARE being reported. I know "war is hell" but that should be "hell" for the participants in the war, not the innocents who have nowhere to go.

Cha

(296,893 posts)
20. I say "Fuck Genocidal HAMAS"!
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 06:41 PM
Dec 2023
Hamas commanders killed by IDF hiding in tunnels
Gaza City is a prime example of Hamas' use of the civilian population as human shields. IDF forces, guided by the Shin Bet and military intelligence, eliminated four battalion commanders in the Gaza Brigade, including the commanders of the Sabra, Shati, Daraj Tafah, and Shuja'iya battalions.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18504363

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

Hamas: ‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it’

Over a month after Hamas’ brutal attack on Israel and her people, both parties have agreed to a deal on hostage and prisoner exchanges, and a ceasefire to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. While civilians will receive food, water, and emergency care amid the exchange negotiations, Hamas’ radical indoctrination of antisemitism will continue to spread.

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: O’ Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him,” reads the Hamas Covenant that outlines a path to the group’s goal of destroying Israel through jihad. This mantra, riddled with blatant hate, was clearly reflected when the terrorist group broke an ongoing ceasefire with its attack on Israel on October 7 that prompted this wave of conflict. Footage of Israeli citizens being shot while driving their cars, children being murdered in their bunk beds, and families hunted in their own neighborhoods brings this atrocity of a covenant to the public eye.

https://newhouse.house.gov/media/weekly-columns-and-op-eds/hamas-israel-will-exist-and-will-continue-exist-until-islam-will

Celerity

(43,141 posts)
22. You & others keep repeating the same old mantras, yet ignore the stone cold fact that Israel does NOT have a free,
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:09 PM
Dec 2023

unfettered hand to do whatever they want in the P/I war.

They never did, do not now, and never will, full stop.

At some point, IF they continue to careen further and further away from and past the boundaries of the international law/rule of war of proportional response even the US (under the Biden administration) will probably be forced to turn on them and shut it down.

IF they continue to keep ratcheting it up more and more, IF they press on with a totality of action that all but the most reactionary types (both in the RW Netanyahu religio-fascist government and those outside of it, but within its various and sundry penumbras) can clearly see and correctly morally claim is open ethnic cleansing (and perhaps moving into actual genocide), and IF the Biden administration still (not talking about words, but actions) full-stop keeps aiding them, we will likely lose the 2024 POTUS election.

The under 40yo and the PoC vote will likely crater (IF the above happens) to a large degree, plus the US will almost assuredly become a global pariah and likely become targeted economically by a truly vast group of nation states, a group large enough to disrupt our economy to a point where it will negatively impact the 2024 elections.

Biden will never allow that to happen. He is not going to allow pure, unconditional support for Israel, no matter what they do, to become a suicide pact for American democracy.

It would take an overwhelming amount of suspension of disbelief to think that Israel can kill so many Palestinians that the talk becomes not how many thousands are dead, but how many tens of thousands are dead (perhaps even moving into 6-figure territory), plus fully display clear ethnic cleansing (likely increasing in the West Bank as well) and yet still cling to a worldview that there will not be immense, dire consequences both inside and outside of the US.

The Magistrate

(95,243 posts)
26. It Is Certainly True, Ma'am
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 07:23 PM
Dec 2023

That supporters of Israel in this country should heed what is required by the best interests of the United States, and our democratic order here. These may not run in parallel with war policy of Israel's government. Clearly, this is an admonition to be heeded by persons who, shall we say, range themselves alongside Israel's opponents as well.

BannonsLiver

(16,313 posts)
50. And the numbers are made up anyway
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 11:13 AM
Dec 2023

Grabbed from thin air. Next week it’ll be 1 million dead. In six more weeks it’ll be 2 million or 700,000 or whatever the Hamas media relations wing decides it is.

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,974 posts)
51. I noticed it jumped from 14K to 20K the day after the ceasefire
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 11:19 AM
Dec 2023

Impressive that Israel was able to cause a third of their casualties in 24 hours. Of course then it jumped back in this thread down to 16K, so I think the anti-Israel crowd is just pulling numbers at random at this point - I mean, since they don't even know the difference between Netanyahu and a restaurant owner in Philadelphia, why should we expect their math to be accurate?

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,974 posts)
52. Not sitting silently
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 11:22 AM
Dec 2023

Harassing Jewish restaurant owners and defacing buildings named after Jewish philanthropists, beating Jewish protesters to death with bullhorns...
There is a lot happening in the world nowadays - may be caused by antisemitism?

GuppyGal

(1,748 posts)
39. No matter how Israel responded they would be damned. The terrorists must go....sorry they are putting their
Tue Dec 5, 2023, 11:23 PM
Dec 2023

own population in the middle...THEY FUCKING DID THAT

Mossfern

(2,449 posts)
45. Unfortunately
Wed Dec 6, 2023, 01:53 AM
Dec 2023

"The terrorists must go" sentiment I agree with, but how?

I honestly think that bombing Gaza will not get rid of the terrorists, considering that children are taught at an early age that there is glory in killing Jews.

What's needed is an unbiased broker for peace.
But for that to happen, both sides must agree.
We see how well Hamas respects cease fires.
We see how Likud favors violent settlers.

I'm feeling hopeless.

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