'From the river to the sea': Why these 6 words spark fury and passion over the Israel-Hamas war

[redqueen]

The full court press to make uttering a phrase which predates Hamas synonymous with a declaration of genocidal antisemitism will not solve anything.

Those doing the pushing should recognize that they do not get to simply demand that everyone agree. And should they refuse, choosing to smear those who disagree as ignorant at best, and a secret anti-semite if not an advocate of genocide against Jews at worst, will backfire.

And in Britain, the Labour party issued a temporary punishment to a member of Parliament, Andy McDonald, for using the phrase during a rally at which he called for a stop to bombardment.

“We won’t rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis & Palestinians, between the river & the sea can live in peaceful liberty,” he tweeted.

Then he explained: “These words should not be construed in any other way than they were intended, namely as a heart felt plea for an end to killings in Israel, Gaza, and the occupied West Bank, and for all peoples in the region to live in freedom without the threat of violence.”

https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49

[claudette]

1. What I don't understand

is people saying these words don’t have the power to drive anybody anywhere out of their land so what’s the point in using it to attack anyone?. Did I get this wrong. I like that member of Parliament’s explanation of it.

[David__77]

2. I think Wikipedia has a reasonably good overview.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea

[claudette]

3. Thank you

I’ll check it out. 😊

[Beastly Boy]

47. At the top of this page, in bold type:

The neutrality of this article is disputed.

No shit!

[David__77]

51. That does happen on Wikipedia.

I do think that the article clarifies that there are criticisms and defenses of the term.

[Beastly Boy]

56. The article omits facts relevant to the issues presented in it,

creating a one-sided narrative with a clear agenda.

This is why it was disputed in the first place, and remains so today.

"Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met.", also at the top pf the page.

[David__77]

59. I often find reading the "talk" page in Wikipedia of interest.

It helps clarify different parties' perspectives.

[Oopsie Daisy]

8. Who are you defending? Are you suggesting that it's okay to say it? Or that those who do should not be called-out?

Even if a single individual "doesn't have the power" (as you explain) to drive anyone out of their land, does that make it right for them to espouse so to do, or to encourage others so to do, or to justify when others make futile attempts such as Hamas did on the 7th?

Or are you concerned that it shouldn't be uttered at all since those who say such things "don't have the power" to accomplish it on their own.

You seem pretty bright to me, so it should be no surprise that this is a rallying cry and a call to action... not just the rantings of one person who thinks they can do it themselves.

[redqueen]

12. Welcome to du

Just noticed you're still pretty new

[Oopsie Daisy]

17. Well, thank you for noticing! It's odd to receive a "welcome to DU" message after six months here.

That really means a lot to me. I hope we can be great online friends. It's really a treat to receive a "welcome" message that's warm and sincere. It's much nicer than the few passive-aggressive welcome message I received which were followed by "enjoy your stay."

[TwilightZone]

66. "Welcome to DU" and "enjoy your stay" often mean the same thing.

The former phrase is sometimes sincere, sometimes not so much.

At six months and 1300+ posts in, I'd guess it's a little on the not so much side. haha. I did like your response, though I thought it might also be sarcastic, and if that's the case, I like it even more. It's so hard to tell sometimes.

The latter phrase is almost always sarcastic, used to essentially tag a new user as a potential troll or imposter, as you seem to have correctly concluded. We're sometimes a little too quick to judge, though we do get our share of troublemakers.

Anyway, a sincere welcome to DU, six months late.

[Oopsie Daisy]

74. Thanks very much. I appreciate your checking-in and sharing your thoughts.

Yes, indeed, I was being sarcastic. You read it correctly.

But now, I say to you in all sincerity... I think that you and I will turn out to be friends. 👍

[Polybius]

103. I was told to "enjoy my stay" when I had under 100 posts

Apparently, a regular didn't like my reply to him. Funny thing is that I'm still here lol.

[TexasDem69]

37. Deflection?

[treestar]

77. Because it is referred to as if it really were possible

There are small groups espousing all kinds of things. Who cares if what they want is impossible? Jan. 6 offenders are prosecuted for what they did. No one thinks they could have actually have overthrown the US government.

[treestar]

76. Yes, like Hamas' stated goal has any chance of happening

they don't have an army and they can't occupy anything.
I have a stated goal of destroying the Russians and their ability to raise warfare. They don't seem too worried, though.

[claudette]

80. Yes, exactly

Dictators or greedy leaders will just try to do it, not just repeat a slogan.

[LexVegas]

4. Its an antisemitic phrase. nt

[TheKentuckian]

5. There isn't any secret to the antisemitism it is written in 10,000 foot tall letters of fire

There will be no permission and no cowing no matter how much ridiculous nonsense is splattered up against the wall.

[marybourg]

6. That's right. It does pre-date Hamas.

It’s been used by Palestinians and by Arab countries for 75 years as a chant to accompany their multiple wars and other actions meant to wipe Israel off the map from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

[TheRickles]

28. The phrase was first used by early Zionists to justify the creation of Greater Israel.

Here's an article from Ha-aretz about the Zionist origins of that phrase: https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2018-12-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/hamas-owes-its-from-the-river-to-the-sea-slogan-to-zionists/0000017f-deef-d3ff-a7ff-ffef96ca0000

[Igel]

45. Yes it was.

But I don't recall Jabotinsky calling for ethnic cleansing.

He wanted a homeland, sort of the literary founding father of Zionism, but while Jewish homeland was on the left hand side of the menu, co-existence was on the right-hand side.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" rather says that the entire area is "Palestine" (no Israel) and rather suggests that current Israel isn't free. Free from what? Theocracy? Repression of speech? Wakame?

Oh. Oppression. By whom?

[NickB79]

50. Yet today Palestinians make up 20% of Israeli citizens

A nation created under the Zionist definition of "river to the sea" allows Palestinians to live inside it's borders.

A nation created under the Hamas definition of "river to the sea" requires all Jews inside it's borders be murdered.

I think that's quite an important distinction.

[claudette]

81. Not sure of that

That's the modern interpretation because, as was stated, that slogan was around before Hamas existed.

From the Wikipedia article shown above:

"....According to American historian Robin D. G. Kelley, the phrase "began as a Zionist slogan signifying the boundaries of Eretz Israel."[3] Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov notes that Zionist usage of such language predates the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and began with the Revisionist movement of Zionism led by Vladimir Jabotinski, which spoke of establishing a Jewish state in all of Palestine and had a song with the slogan: "The Jordan has two banks; this one is ours, and the other one too," suggesting a Jewish state extending even beyond the Jordan River...."

[NickB79]

96. Not sure of what, exact?

Modern Israel is 25% non-Jew. They have therefore already demonstrated that they can coexist with other religions and races within their nation's borders.

Hamas has made it their stated goal to establish a nation free of Jews, made free through murder of said Jews inside it's potential border, per their own charter.

There is nothing to debate in what I've posted.

[claudette]

97. Ok

Nothing to debate. Bye

[Beastly Boy]

53. The full chant:

"From the river to the sea Palestine will be free"

It takes some heavy cojones to claim it doesn't refer to the Palestinian state on the current territory of the State of Israel.

[ShazzieB]

65. Absolutely true!

[The Magistrate]

7. This Begins To Sound, Ma'am, Like Tucker Carlson Whining He Can't Use 'The N-Word'

The people threatened by it have told you what it means.

[redqueen]

10. Funny how despite the ongoing pandemic of domestic violence, rape, and femicide,

women still don't get to dictate to others which words get used about us.

No one will shame me into submission on this.

Slurs are not acceptable, this chant is not a slur and it is not universally accepted as support for genocide.

It is almost astounding that so many people could fall in line with the idea that millions of left wing young people are violently antisemitic or just stupid.

Almost.

The fact is, it is simply not cut and dry, no matter how many may stomp their feet and raise their voices and insist that it is so.

[The Magistrate]

13. It's Not Universally Accepted The Earth Is A Globe, Ma'am, Or That Organic Diversity Owes To Evolution

Can't see what difference that makes. Both things are so.

[redqueen]

18. It is interesting how unevenly this 'rule' is applied.

I'll just leave it there.

[The Magistrate]

19. All Rules Are Applied Unevenly, Ma'am

Your comments are as apt an example as any I have made.


"I am a man of principles, and chief among them is flexibility."

[redqueen]

21. How so? nt

[The Magistrate]

26. You Are Maintaining, Ma'am, That A Minority Group Reporting It Is Threatened By Another's Speech Should Be Ignored

Not only that, but that you have some right to explain to them what it really means, and that they ought to bow to your wisdom.

I look forward to your patient acceptance of some guy explaining why it's not demeaning at all to be addressed as 'little lady' and told you do pretty well at this debate stuff for a girl.

[redqueen]

32. Ah, but no one is insisting that those who disagree do so politely

and in fact most have not.

Just as those who believe the phrase is antisemitic and purports genocide are free to believe it, and to state their case however they like - if I believe that everyone who supports porn and prostitution, and who supports the allowance of the b word hates women and secretly supports the patriarchy and its oppression of women, I am free to do so, and free to speak out on it as much as I like.

What is being done, however, is that people who do not agree are being censured, punished, and even have some calling for them to be removed from office or fired.

This is what I am saying will cause a backlash.

I would like for more people to recognize that porn is hate speech - but if I demonize those who disagree, what purpose does that serve? I would say it would not help my cause at all, and in fact would hurt it.

[The Magistrate]

42. I Find Politeness Adds A Certain Edge, Ma'am, Mere Slanging Can't Achieve

The top of the head response is 'well, this concerns a war threatening global peace, and in war sides must taken,' but I understand this is hardly a line to press in discussion with you, because you feel, and I do not disagree, that a war on women is certainly going on, one which it is fair to call of global scale and pressed with brutal cruelty. I'm not going to press for points where we might disagree over whether some thing or another is really part of it, because I expect we both find substantial agreement worth having. I do think the relation between mostly idealistic leftists in the West and the various armed bodies of Arab Palestine from Suez on an odd coupling, and not to the credit of the former group. I do not expect they will agree with me, but I will maintain they are wrong, and drink of a poisoned chalice. Because certainly, any body of fundamentalists in arms is on the other side of a war against women, and I would bear that in mind choosing political and cultural causes I wished to forward.

[Beastly Boy]

61. All other things taken into account... Damn, I envy your command of the English language!

Pardon the slanging.

[redqueen]

75. I am not advancing any cultural cause here.

I am arguing for less escalation of hostilities between left-leaning people.

I do not care about pissing off people who use confederate flags or defend them. I do care about alienating potential democratic voters.

[The Magistrate]

83. I Agree With That Aim, Ma'am

I would suggest, in this particular instance, that aim would be better served by dropping use of a slogan many left-leaning people hear as a ringing declaration of genocidal intent, rather than trying to convince them it doesn't really mean what they hear when it's chanted by raucous crowds.

[redqueen]

85. Yet I have not done that.

I am merely stating that siding with ultra-right-wingers in the effort to demonize anyone who does use it is counterproductive.

I have not once used it, advocated using it, or stated that I think it means one thing or the other, yet people have been hurling non-sequiturs as if I were their enemy. Imo that says it all.

[The Magistrate]

87. In Your Original Comment, Ma'am

You offered up an English Labour MP's claim the phrase was:

"...a heart felt plea for an end to killings in Israel, Gaza, and the occupied West Bank, and for all peoples in the region to live in freedom without the threat of violence."

It does not take a right-wing effort to convince me the phrase means something other than that, I take the phrase to be a declaration of genocidal intent owing to familiarity with the genocidal fundamentalist cult of sadistic, sexually twisted murderers who habitually employ it. I am of the view that the 'nation' is a basic building block of social organization, and that a nation ought to be run on socialist lines. For obvious reasons, I do not therefor describe myself as a national socialist, though it would be quite apt were the dictionary meanings of each word consulted separately, with no reference to the ghastly history which has made use of the two together anathema.

[redqueen]

88. I offered it up as an example of how many on the left are using it.

No one has to agree.

The misreading / misrepresenting what I write is really tiresome.

[The Magistrate]

89. As You Wish, Ma'am

[redqueen]

90. Apologies, I didn't intend that to direct that at you.

It was more of a generalized comment. You are surely not among those sharing the most egregious misinterpretations in this thread or others.

Thanks for the civil discussion. Wish we still had more like this around here.

[The Magistrate]

93. None Necessary, Ma'am

A pleasant note to close our exchange on.

Be well, and stay safe.

[Hekate]

60. "Will cause a backlash"? I'm afraid the backlash is already here

[TheKentuckian]

99. I guess it goes from threats to the actual action

Reads akin to "Keep calling us antisemitic and we'll show you some real antisemitism".

[Hekate]

58. Sir, you rock

[TexasDem69]

39. This chant is absolutely a call to eliminate Israel

And its citizens. Are we pretending it isn’t?

[ShazzieB]

67. Some here seem to be pretending just that, unfortunately. 😕

[Igel]

57. Ah, the "nuance argument."

You know, JJ was a decent friend. Nice guy. When an older black woman in our church had surgery, he was the first to shop for groceries for her and mow her yard for weeks. He was in his early 20s. Did the same for an older white woman.

He was a proud Texan, transplanted to the Pacific Northwest. This was decades ago.

As he delivered the groceries and mowed the yard to either of the women, he wore his Confederate flag belt buckle because he had a few different ones, and all his belts sported Confederate battle flag belt buckles. "It just shows independence, it's not universally accepted as racist." I was okay, since I was from south of the Mason-Dixon line, even if I spoke like a yankee. (I'm a Balamorean.)

Okay, that last quote wasn't an actually quote. Up until the comma, it was a quote, however. Somebody said it was racist, he shrugged and said he disagreed, as far as he was concerned it just meant fighting tyranny. Essentially, his symbol meant what he wanted his symbol to mean. No ill will. Just disagreement and "you have your opinion, I have mine, we should agree to disagree." Yeah, he was fascist that way.

You like nuance or you like the perceptions of the oppressed and wronged. You don't get to say, "One rule for me, one for thee. I decide what's okay for me, I get to decide what's wrong for thee." In other words, "You have your wrong opinion, I have mine, if you disagree with me, you're just bad." You think that's okay, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But if "Palestine" is to be "free" from the river to the sea, is Israel part of Palestine? And what, exactly, is the land from the river to the sea to be free of ... that Israel isn't already free of? Free of Palestinians? Of Jews? Of Jewish domination? Of something approaching liberal democracy? Of Israel? I mean, most Israeli Palestinians want to be Israeli and not Hamasian.

Or is this like saying, "From the Urals to the Ocean, a Europe of democratic devotion"? (And what of most of the European countries?)
Mostly there because it's ear candy and could easily be reduced to the more accurate and precise, "O may it be, two Russias shall be free!"?

[sarisataka]

11. 99% of the time we are told

It doesn't matter how the speaker intends the word(s), it is how the recipient hears and feels about the word(s).

This is the 1%...

[Sympthsical]

9. People fine with this probably think the Confederate Flag is just about heritage

Messed up to see people on the Left following this logic.

[The Magistrate]

15. I Like That, Sir

Expect I'll adopt it....

[Swede]

54. And the word The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means "good fortune" or "well-being."

Definition from the Holocaust Encylopedia

The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means “good fortune” or “well-being." The motif (a hooked cross) appears to have first been used in Eurasia, as early as 7000 years ago, perhaps representing the movement of the sun through the sky.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/history-of-the-swastika

[tritsofme]

25. Excellent analogy, this is the exact same bad faith world where defense of that phrase exists.

[Johnny2X2X]

14. Words meanings can change

Used to mean Palestinians should be free everywhere in that region. Terrorists co-opted it when talking about the eradication of Israel. So now it’s considered to mean genocide for Israelis.

Things can change. Like when American white supremacists turned the Okay hand sign to mean White Power. And sometimes people still use the Okay sign and it’s fine because they’re obviously not saying White Power. Some people use the River to the Sea still not realizing Hamas and other terrorists have taken that phrase over to threaten genocide.

[edhopper]

16. I am very sure

Hamas uses it just like that, for peaceful coexistence with the Jewish people in all of Palestine.

[raging moderate]

36. I heard it used to express a desire for genocide about 68 years ago.

Last edited Wed Dec 6, 2023, 08:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Back when I was about 7-8 years old, about 68-69 years ago, one of my first memories of a news show was an interview with some sort of Arab commander, expressing a determination to drive out or stamp out all the Jewish people in Palestine. I am not Jewish, but I am human. I have watched this tragedy unfolding all my life, with multiple efforts by some to achieve a lasting peace and multiple efforts by others to start a genocide. Jews have been living in that region for thousands of years, and Muslims have ruled there for well over 1500 years. Maybe it was fun for Muslims to live in a country with Jews as long as they could swagger around as the bosses and control the lives of others. Maybe the Muslims did not realize it was not so much fun for others. Maybe the Jews just did not dare complain but just stood it somehow. Some kept living there; the Brits found thousands when they invaded long ago. And some of them slipped away if they could find a place where it looked as if they could be more free. And this turned out not be be dependable, but they won enough friends to be all right some of the time. And And then some European and American gentiles turned into Nazi monsters who treated them much worse than the Muslims had. Six million slaughtered, and many more mangled into misery! So of course they wanted to come home. And really, most Jewish people I have known have been fine people, and they are generally intelligent and principled people. The Muslims and the Jews in that area had had a shared experience of being bullied by England. Germany's temper tantrum made England see the flaw in bullying, and they have pulled back. If the Palestinians had had the sense to welcome the Jewish expatriates home with love and honor and give them their official safe space, probably the resulting cooperative efforts would have made that region the richest on Earth. Many chances at a peaceful resolution of this conflict have failed. I do think the Muslims really let their tempers drive them into horrible inhuman attacks on many Jews, and not just this year but my whole life. I do think the Israeli government has really lost their tempers and gone overboard on their response, doing more horrible inhuman attacks. Look, you guys, you can decide to put a stop to this mess. When you fight a monster, take care that you do not become the monster. The region of your brain that is telling you to massacre these other people is about the size and shape of a pea (I saw several in my human anatomy class). Think about negotiation, toleration, cooperation. You are both generally temperate, self-disciplined, diligent groups, when you are not throwing temper tantrums. You are both plenty smart. Your region still could become the richest on Earth.

[edhopper]

41. I don't know the answer to eleminated Hamas

as a threat and power in Gaza and ensuring no Palestinian casualties. I wish there was a way with less destruction yjam we have seen. I hope there is. I do know Hamas must be dealt.

[tritsofme]

20. Pretending the phrase means something else is gaslighting.

[redqueen]

22. The accusations are just a flying

I've been called ignorant, antisemitic, and now I'm a gaslighting liar

Strange days

[tritsofme]

27. Perhaps that is an indication some self reflection is in order?

Defending this phrase is defending the indefensible.

[egduj]

29. Why do you want to be able to say that phrase so bad?

[redqueen]

33. Why do you think I want to say it? nt

[egduj]

38. You're writing a song and it would fit perfectly as a refrain?

[edhopper]

43. You want an end of Jewish rule

in Israel?

[elias7]

48. It doesn't matter why you want to say it

Palestinians are clear what they mean when they say it. Some say that the Jews should leave and go back where they came from, some say the Jews can stay but it is a Palestinian country. The bottom line is that for them, this is their land. They don’t care that Jews have been living there for 3000 years and have just as much claim the land as an ancestral homeland as anybody else, probably more, and should have a right to return, just as the Palestinian refugees claim to have.

The problem is that embedded in the term is the destruction of Israel, regardless of your intent. Words or phrases that trigger minority groups should be respected as words to avoid. I see upstream you did have a discussion regarding aspersions towards women, and I think that most intelligent and sensitive people avoid using such triggering language.

Certainly when the so-called TERFS start talking about womanhood and language that seems quite innocuous, certain phrases are very triggering for the transgender community because of the subtextual meaning and Most of us try to avoid those so as not to trigger that community.

I am telling you as a Jew that “from the river to the sea” is triggering to me as an antisemitic and anti-Israel remark, and most people who respect me and my identity would honor my request not to use it. using something that is being made clear to you is triggering to Jews, shows an insensitivity like using the N word, flying a rebel flag, or using any number of dog whistles to demean minority groups.

[Butterflylady]

30. Gosh, here I thought I was the only one.....

[redqueen]

35. Heck no!

However, most flinging these barbs do so indirectly so as to avoid an alert, I'm sure.

[revmclaren]

70. If you and others want to claim a phrase

used by terrorists and genocidists, then you have to accept all that comes with it.

[Oopsie Daisy]

23. Correct.

[Uncle Joe]

24. I believe the predominant reason for the uproar is that it diverts attention away

from how the Palestinians been treated for decades and the absolute human catastrophe that is going on in Gaza NOW.

[The Magistrate]

31. Nonesense, Sir

The 'uproar' stems from the fact it is the slogan of a body of fundamentalists in arms with genocidal and theocratic aspirations, composed in the main of sadistic, sexually twisted murderers, who indulged their appetites in a spree on October 7, and that their slogan is part of the repertoire of chants employed at demonstrations by persons who seem to imagine themselves left progressives, and that in chanting it they are aligning themselves with some noble example of the resilience of the human spirit, at the vanguard of liberation from a colonial order.


"People whose world view is black and white are helpless when confronting a need to choose between jet and onyx greys."

[redqueen]

34. Perhaps - if so it's a wildly ineffective method.

Unless it's only meant to be a diversion for those who would rather not face the reality of what is being done - and in that case...

[Uncle Joe]

40. I agree, and it is wildly ineffectual but we have grown up with this narrative

and it's ingrained in our emotional makeup.

When that reality gets threatened, the first responses are usually emotional or defensive in nature.

I believe that's in large part why the Congress and corporate media were so quick to trash Rashida Tlaib.

[tritsofme]

44. Or maybe it's because she slurred President Biden as a genocide supporter?

[Uncle Joe]

52. Rashida is the ONLY Palestinian American in the Congress, and the corporate media in general

Last edited Wed Dec 6, 2023, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

has done virtually nothing but trash President Biden since he has been President.

This has been magnified by them, because they perceive it weakens President Biden and Rashida.

[tritsofme]

55. I don't know how that is relevant to her vicious and unjust slur of President Biden as a genocide supporter.

[The Magistrate]

62. Irrelevant, Sir. She Said What She Said. It Was Stupid.

If she ever apologized and made some rhetorical amends, I have not heard of it.

I think she is a salutary presence in Congress, and would prefer she remain there. I don't expect people directly involved to always maintain a cool head, but as a part of the Party caucus, she has responsibilities to the whole, which I do not think she has upheld in this.

[TwilightZone]

68. That's an odd deflection.

Just because the media trashes Biden doesn't mean that those who are ostensibly on our side are free to do so, as well. It also doesn't excuse dumb remarks, and accusing Biden of supporting genocide was truly a dumb remark.

Blaming the media for something she brought upon herself also seems a bit misguided, though I realize that some think the media is responsible for every ill ever thrust upon the country. The media's amplification of the remark doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[TexasDem69]

69. Are you arguing that because she's the only Palestinian

It’s ok that she said President Biden supported genocide? That seems to be what you are arguing.

[The Magistrate]

71. Not Quite, Sir, But Close

Your analysis omits the essential innocence of persons who condemn Israel, and the malleability of the public mind at the hands of the evil mass media.

What he is saying is first, that she didn't to anything wrong, second, that we only think she did because the media has stirred us up to believe it, and third, that the media has done this because she is the sole Palestinian in Congress. Into the bargain, it's part of the media trying to make Mr. Biden look bad, though whether that is because it amplifies the charge, or because it suggests a rift between Mr. Biden and the 'youth vote', is not clear.

The important thing to remember is that you have not heard what she said and formed your view of it, what you think you think is just what mainstream media convinced you you think.


"There are things so absurd only an intellectual can believe them, no ordinary man would be such a fool."

[Igel]

64. We start the clock in 1948.

I start the clock earlier.

I know about what amounts to ethnic cleansing of Hebron. Of a pogrom in Palestine in the '20s. Of the Grand Mufti's "open air prison" he helped produce ... for Jews ... in the '40s.

The early '40s resulted from the '30s, the late '40s from the late '30s and early '40s. We claim that Hamas is a result of history. But so is Netanyahu.

Then after hate for centuries in Muslim and European countries, the late '40s resulted in an attempt at a 2nd Holocaust, then in '50 or so more Jews ethnically cleansed and impoverished because of Muslim hate than Arabs relocated from the Naqba. Remember, more Jews fled Arab lands where they'd lived for centuries than came from Europe post-Holocaust. More Israelis are "Middle Eastern" than they are "European." "Go back to Poland" is like a Klansman telling a black man to "go back to Nigeria."


It's Hanukkah, day 1. A celebration of Jews fighting for a homeland against aggressors that invaded their lands. Gee, it means Jews are more "indigenous" to Palestine than Arabs. This was 1000 years before the Islamic Conquest.

Happy Hanukkah.

:חנוכה שמח

[AZSkiffyGeek]

79. Only tangentially related...

But I've wondered if Netanyahu would still be the same asshole (or if he'd even be PM) if his brother hadn't been killed at Entebbe.

[Igel]

100. Would Putin be the same asshole if he wasn't raised on

hearing about his family's horror against fascism and then been trained as a KGB officer.

Nature versus nature. I figure nature pushes you and sets broad channels, but nurture has a lot of influence. Maybe 50-50 (that's about where g, "general intelligence", has settled, so why not?).

Putin--or Netanyahu--might be assholes in an alt-reality, but I'd rather have them cutting me off in traffic or being mean to their kids than being what they are today.

Then again, who knows? I assume that "assholeriness" can be broken down into components--maybe there's a hard-ass driven version that would push hard to get to nuclear fusion but their "drivedness" instead of going towards "I want to fight this problem and defend the world" went instead to "I want to fight the _______ and defend my ethnicity."

In a perfect universe, perhaps one day we'd know.

As I tell my students, a quote from Babylon 5, "it's not a perfect universe."

Excuse me, La testament de Amelia by Lloret came up in my queue ... It immediately relocates me to a specific time and place. Gotta go.

[WarGamer]

46. So which side plans on controlling "from the river to the sea"??

[AloeVera]

82. One side already does.

The other side lives that reality but can't express their aspirations to be free. It's anti-semitic.

[GuppyGal]

91. I can't wait to hear about he consistent peaceful protests from them...that's something the world would get behind.

[NickB79]

49. Someone needs to tell the Pro-Palestinian protesters using it then

https://jewishjournal.com/los_angeles/347287/pro-palestinian-protesters-chant-long-live-the-intifada-we-want-all-48-in-front-of-la-israeli-consulate/

"We don't want no two states, we want all of 48" is a lot less ambiguous at least in their call to wipe out the state of Israel that occupies that land.

Clearly they're using "River to the Sea" wrong, if it's not truly a call to wipe out Israel.

[Aussie105]

63. It's a trigger phrase for most people.

But their interpretation of that phrase differs so much, and the implied response required to its assumed meaning varies so much, it is best not to use it.

But perhaps . . . .

There will be no peace in the land between the river and the sea until people stop thinking of themselves as Israelis and Palestinians, and just become equal inhabitants of that part of the Middle East.

(Not going to happen obviously, too much history, too many invested groups. So be it, endless war, here we come. More deaths, more destruction.
Humans are stupid.)

[Behind the Aegis]

72. It's "Heritage, not hate", right?

[LexVegas]

73. This is insane. nt

[Sympthsical]

78. Some people really, really want to employ antisemitic sentiments for some reason

And the logic and rationale are the same as people who say objectively racist things but swear they "don't mean it that way."

And the persecution complex about it is identical. "I wasn't being racist, but then the woke people came after me!"

I've really tried, and my brain just cannot process how people do not know what they look or sound like, and how they've cribbed right-wing logic and arguments to perpetuate this stuff.

My personal favorite was the daring, rebellious, "I will not submit to people who are criticizing me for defending antisemitic sentiments!" Yeah, just like people cry, "I won't surrender to the woke brigade! They won't dim my star!"

It's one to one the same exact shit. Amazing to see that here.

[madaboutharry]

84. This is one of the most depressing threads ever posted on DU.

Insisting on using a phrase that the group of people it targets assert is antisemitic and a call for genocide is vicious and cruel. Full stop.

Replace the target, in this case Jews, with another group. If Black people, LGBTQ people, or any other frequently maligned group said that a phrase was not only hurtful, but seen as a call for their destruction, would you engage in pontificating about how they are wrong, don’t care how they interpret it, and demand the right to scream it in their face? If so, there is no debate on the true intent.

[Zeitghost]

86. If it were directed at any other group

The phrase wouldn't be allowed to be written here on DU and any posters like the OP who continue to push it and other anti-semtic words and ideas would be immediately and rightfully banned.

But because it's directed at Jews...


The problem is systemic antisemitism.

[GuppyGal]

92. There is a double standard when it comes to Jews....that much is abundantly clear. nt

[TheKentuckian]

101. Has been the case for a 3,000 years or so, it seems to me.

Ebbs and flows but ever present.

[LeftInTX]

94. 'From the river to the sea' - Students chant but don't know which river or sea

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-776987

In light of widespread anti-Israel protests across college campuses, students could not name which river and which sea the rallying cry is about.
By JERUSALEM POST STAFF

In a recent survey of 250 college students across the US, some 86% supported the Palestinian chant “From the river to the sea,” — but only slightly more than half of them (47%) were able to name the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea as the boundaries that the slogan is talking about.

Some of the alternative answers were the Nile and the Euphrates rivers, the Dead Sea—and even the Caribbean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Less than a quarter of these students knew who Yasser Arafat was or what the Oslo Accords were.

After learning a handful of basic facts about the Middle East, two-thirds of the surveyed students went from supporting "from the river to the sea" to rejecting it.

When 80 of the students were shown on regional map that a new Palestinian state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea—leaving no room for Israel—three-fourths if them changed their support to "probably not."

[Maru Kitteh]

98. Like white 80's teenagers with Confederate flags on their locker door because

they thought it was about "being a rebel" and being cool.

A bunch of this is bandwagoning enabled by shitty education. It made these students ripe for Hamas propaganda, which they are pretty good at, obviously.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

95. Hamas is using this phrase to call for elimination death of all Jews is Israel

Thieve is no dispute on the intended meaning of this term

[ismnotwasm]

102. Jesus Christ.

No.