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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTens of thousands hit the streets in London anti-war protest
Reporting from London
This is the eighth week in a row that we’ve seen large protests against Israel’s war on Gaza in London and other cities in the UK.
The main chant here is ‘ceasefire now’ and there is a very high level of anger among the crowd at the UK government position of abstaining from voting at the UN Security Council on an immediate ceasefire.
Generally the protest has been peaceful, though one lady was just arrested. Police sources tell us tens of thousands of people are on the streets of London today.
Link to tweet
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/12/9/israel-hamas-war-live-us-veto-of-un-ceasefire-effort-draws-condemnation
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gulliver
(13,985 posts)...taken it back? There may have been more than one. I don't know or care. I'm not sure you can have a ceasefire agreement with a group that says they're planning on letting their Columbine-profile, Dahmeresque broken units loose on Israel again in the future.
claudette
(5,455 posts)with you for more innocent Palestinians to die? I don’t understand
gulliver
(13,985 posts)Those must be weighed in the balance in making the moral decision. That's a huge blind spot for many people who are willing to sacrifice the people of the future (in the world and even in Gaza) for the people of now. Hamas is a now problem and a future problem if they are permitted to exist. Supporting them, their ideology, or even playing into their schemes in any way is a moral failure.
claudette
(5,455 posts)How does the murder of innocent Palestinian NOW make any difference for the future ? Who does it benefit except those who want revenge NOW
gulliver
(13,985 posts)I've said it as best I can
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)all that needs to be done to protect the innocent Palestinians is for the Israeli hostages to be released and Hamas to surrender. Gaza will profit by that because they will get tons of money to rebuild with many contributions they'll receive - not being stolen by unscrupulous terrorists.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)and is not adhered to?
Hamas will not maintain a ceasefire nor will they release their hostages (if they are even alive to release).
Is Hamas going to do anything different this time? Will they even cease at all?
What in the world does "okay" have to do with anything?
The question is foolish. Are you okay with more Hamas attacks, rape gangs, and hostage taking?
I would assume not.
So, that being the case what to actually do from here not magic beans is the question and that what is not for Israel to suck it.
Do you have a real security plan?
If you give a flying fuck about Palestinians what is the plan to get the same Hamas off their necks?
People cry out that they haven't had an election in 16 plus years, any thought on changing that? The corruption and theft of desperately needed aid even before this war was epidemic. Anything?
A bunch of twits that at each and every turn that demand absolute impunity for a terrorist organization masquerading as a government.
How that makes a lick of sense to anyone is beyond me. It is like there is no calculation for Hamas at all which means a very pro Hamas environment.
Nobody is living with that, the notion is absurd.
NoRethugFriends
(3,750 posts)
Sal_NV
(606 posts)Quit putting words in peoples mouths that weren't said.
leftstreet
(40,666 posts)
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)what do these people propose?
Israel should forget the rape and inhuman murder of 1200 of their citizens, mostly civilians?
Do they propose that Hamas release all remaining kidnapped prisoners in exchange for "peace"?
What about the launch of rockets from Gaza into Israel? Do they propose to stop this? How will that be done?
I don't want war either, but these questions need to be answered before there can be whirled peas.
BTW, why aren't they also demonstrating against the Russians for starting the war in Ukraine. A war where there are documented war crimes by the Russians... which the Russians started without any cross border raids by Ukraine to rape and kill thousands of Russians.
While they are at it, maybe they can march down to the Venezuelan embassy and protest there against a coming war which is an out and out land grab for oil that was discovered in Guyana.
No? I guess this isn't really about Peace is it... maybe it's more about the religion of the country they are protesting against.
claudette
(5,455 posts)about the more than 17,000 dead Palestinians who didn’t harm Israel. It’s not a religious war. It’s a land war. In my. View
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)you think 17,000 ( Hamas numbers ) or whatever the body count is... after 2 months... is going to get it?
Israel would need to continue the war like this for 20 years ( assuming the birth rate is zero ).
Destroy infrastructure and make people leave... much more likely... but then instead of bombing apartment houses and buildings, it would have been much easier to simply blockade food, water, and fuel with no relief. There was a reason that in the middle ages if you wanted to take a castle you simply laid siege to it. unless the cavalry comes riding over the hill to save it, it will fall.
so no, this isn't a land grab.
Collective punishment maybe.
War on Hamas... possibly. Urban and tunnel warfare with troops would be very dangerous to the IDF, so I can understand the IDF not wanting to send in hundreds of thousands of infantry to sort through all of the people in Gaza looking for both hostages and Hamas. As a military commander, it is much easier to call for an airstrike against a suspected Hamas hiding place and accept the collateral damage ( dead children ). However, that way loses the justification narrative ( as evidenced by the number of people in the US and Europe that from Oct 8th started supporting the innocent Palestinians ( and sometimes even Hamas ).
So... war on Hamas - yes... but... a losing war.
Don't ask me, I don't have any answers. My suggestion was an all Sunni Arab occupying armed force to take over Gaza and hunt down and arrest the murderers and let them face Islamic justice. Will there be outrage about the number of beheadings? And for the Arabs to stay and administer Gaza... take some of their oil wealth to rebuild Gaza... and after 10 years, turn it back over to the Palestinians with the provision that Palestine recognizes and signs a peace treaty with Israel. But I doubt the Sunni Arabs actually want any part of that.
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 9, 2023, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)
And the few trucks coming in are only in the south thru the Egyptian gate. None of that is getting north because the truckers are not going to drive through war zones, and the south is that now too so they're just coming in and dropping supplies close to the gate
Israel is making a huge mistake with this and the stain with stay with it as a nation. And once this is over and entire horror of the ruination that has been done is revealed by news media, there will be much shame and much push back.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Magic beans, emotionalism, and I got squat ever is the response.
DBoon
(24,982 posts)Do we want to follow the moral example of Stalin and slaughter civilians for vengeance?
brush
(61,033 posts)I don't want to blame all Russians, but there's cruelty there. Stalin's purges, the stealing of Ukrainian grain in the '30s where millions starved to death (the Holodomor), an now the just invading of a sovereign nation in an attempt to conquer it...brutality and inhumanity.
Israel certainly shouldn't go down that path.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)What the everliving fuck is supposed to be the plan?
What is the model that should be followed?
brush
(61,033 posts)And collective purnishment of likewise innocent non-combatants in Gaza. It's up to an estimated 15-17,000 deaths and counting now in Gaza (and that may or may not include those still buried in the rubble. How many deaths are sufficient to you to make up for the 1200 Israeli innocents killed?
Is that not enough?
It's pretty apparent that the Netanyahu/Likud government is attempting to make up to the Israeli people their incompetence and failure in not detecting and moving to stop the terrorist attack for hours before and IDF troops got on the scene. Which is why Hamas was able to do all their horrific damage and, btw, take hundreds of hostages.
And remember, Bibi's government has had access to a. report that a big attack was brewing for a year. They dimissed the report as it was a woman analyst's report. And Egypt also warned them something was coming.
The continued bombing is over-kill and also incompetence. How do you keep bombing and destroying anything standing without stopping and accessing? Telling people to move south now bombing the shit out of the south to. And also restricting food and water aid.
It's incompetence and over-retaliation. The vast devastation will we revealed when the war is over and accountability will be called for by international bodies.
Israel needs to get rid of the Netanyahu, try him for his corruption court tampering and put someone else in charge of ferreting out Hamas finishing the war.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)What is to be done about the threat posed?
All you got is a body count that is immaterial to the question does Hamas have the capacity to continue to terrorize as long as the answer is yes the body count is irrelevant.
Now, if you have a better plan the world is all ears but if all that can be mustered is leaving Hamas in power then it is all gas.
brush
(61,033 posts)have honest broker nation/s...the Swiss, the Swedes, any neutral nation, to begin negotiations for a two-state solution with a representative from both sides. (the US can not be considered honest brokers as we supply weapons Israel is using to exact collective punishment on all of Gaza).
I know, we've all heard it before many times, but it is the only thing that holds the possibility for peace and not the endless repeat of the cycle of violence. Israel is to have no hold over the Palestinian nation...checkpoints, admission in and out of the Palestinian state, total freedom for the Palestinian state so it doesn't feel it's subject to Isreali occupation.
And conversely, Palestine should have no reason to interactive with Israeli military, settlers (that has to be resolved, possible give back of lands stolen), just a total divorce from each other, with later negotiated and agreed to interactions/trade of each nation wants it.
No more bombings pls in route to ending the war (Israeli ground forces has to do the rooting out of Hamas with as few civilian casualties as possible.
Anything you want to add?
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)What is the preference for artillery and armor? Just to lengthen the duration of the action?
No, on no border security. Completely nuts. No, they can't "feel free" to have terrorist excursions into Israel.
There was no stolen land. From who? When? By who?
There are no neutral parties. Where would you go to visit the house Anne Frank hid in for a start with your neutrals? Who else is on the list Poland? Russia? Iran?
There is no collective punishment.
You have a terrorist organization that is also a hostile government using its own people as human shields and using civilian infrastructure as munitions and supply warehouses. You have tens of thousands of irregulars embedded into the population.
All of this taking please in a densely populate urban area.
You point to your gold standard that should be followed in the same circumstances. I'll wait.
brush
(61,033 posts)What is this about Russia, Iran, Poland? Make some sense. Geneva or Paris or any nuetral site for reps of bout nations to sit down and work out all the details. It won't be easy as there are several sticking points...for instance, settlers keep taking over Palestinian lands in the West Bank by force with arms. I know you don't want to hear it but it's been going on for decades.
Ground forces have to do the long, tough slog to get rid of Hamas. And you said nothing about Bibi has to go. Even the hostage families and the Isreali public wants his corrupt, intel failure ass gone.
Get real and discuss a site and honest broker for after the war with both Hamas and Bibi/Likud gone.
Response to brush (Reply #68)
AloeVera This message was self-deleted by its author.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)I would have stopped responding at the first mention of "body counts" not being important and definitely at "whose stolen lands, where, when, how"?
I've appreciated all your comments. I may not have another chance to say it, so good luck and keep up the good fight.
brush
(61,033 posts)What's up? Are you ok?
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Just got a nice "heads up" from a poster about you know, "saying something" about my posts. It's probably nothing but who knows?
brush
(61,033 posts)Hold on, and i will too. Some of these posters can dish it out but can't take rebuttals.
Thanks for that advice. I feel like I'm in elementary school waiting for punishment. In my time it was corporal. Ouch. Probably why I hate all forms of violence. But yeah, we have to tread carefully with our rebuttals. Peace out.
cbabe
(6,642 posts)agingdem
(8,843 posts)raping and mutilating women, setting fire to the the elderly and disabled, tearing children from their families and holding them captive, slaughtering Israelis enjoying a music festival are somehow less important than the "innocent" Palestinians who died because Israel had the audacity to retaliate/to seek retribution/to protect Israeli citizens...is that what you're saying?
but how many of those "innocent" dead Palestinians rejoiced and cheered Hamas's butchery, sheltered Hamas, performed as human shields, turned a blind eye to the tunnels housing weapons of war under their school/hospitals/mosques, allowed Hamas to grow rich on their stolen humanitarian aid while they lived in poverty?...
Israel did not start this war...Hamas did knowing exactly the price the Palestinians of Gaza would pay after their lethal incursion into Israel...and they didn't care...
DBoon
(24,982 posts)agingdem
(8,843 posts)gruesome rampage into Israel, massacring innocent Israelis going about their everyday lives...
civilians dying, buildings destroyed, cities leveled...that's the cost of war...blaming the Israelis for retaliating is ludicrous...again, Hamas knew Israel would attack with vengeance, and Hamas knew Palestinians would bear the consequences...and they didn't give a damn...
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Those rules were put in place to prevent from happening exactly what we are seeing in Gaza. Is Israel above these laws?
Seems to me that conducting a war in such a criminal, inhuman manner against defenseless civilians and starving them to boot is not related to self-defense.
Some people need to prepare themselves for the truth of what will soon be apparent to all. Depopulation and ethnic cleansing of Gaza was the prize, Blame Hamas and "self-defense" was the means.
And they don't give a damn how many civilians they have to kill to get there.
debm55
(60,568 posts)a fairly new poster. Welcome. There are so many fairly new posters with a strong opinion.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Yes there are a few of us with strong opinions on this. At least one I know of has already gone, not by their own choosing. I guess if that happens to me too then obviously diversity of views are not welcome here when it comes to I/P.
debm55
(60,568 posts)AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Those rules were put in place to prevent from happening exactly what we are seeing in Gaza. Is Israel above these laws?
Seems to me that conducting a war in such a criminal, inhuman manner against defenseless civilians and starving them to boot is not related to self-defense.
Some people need to prepare themselves for the truth of what will soon be apparent to all. Depopulation and ethnic cleansing of Gaza was the prize, Blame Hamas and "self-defense" was the means. Wool meet eyes, pulled over.
And they don't give a damn how many civilians they have to kill to get there.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)killed.
You, like Hamas just magic wand everyone into "innocents".
No question the civilian toll is high, it is high density, your ultra regressive, terrorist, rapist, theocratic, corrupt by virtually ALL accounts heroes are using the population as shields and are embedded. They have willfully made the area ripe with legitimate military targets.
You have absolutely nothing on the 10/7 side of the equation. NOTHING. Nary a tot or a pear. Not a thought.
The absolute handwaiving of the subsequent ceasefire being broken by the barbarians is even more astounding, just because there is no way that has already fallen down the memory hole. So pretending otherwise is intentional.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,199 posts)Since the British government is fully supportive of Ukraine, there's no compelling need to demonstrate about it. The UK government is, however, ambivalent about ceasefires and military support in Gaza, so demonstrations make sense.
What could be done? Well, what was done just recently would be a good start - another humanitarian pause, with more hostages released by Hamas. The situation is now worse, for pretty much everyone, than it was a couple of weeks ago, so there is an obvious improvement that could happen.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)Israel, through the USA and Qatar, tried to extend the cease fire and exchange prisoners for hostages...
And Hamas said NO.
AloeVera
(4,263 posts)Do you have a source for your claim?
Israel tried to extend the ceasefire? I thought Netanyahu was under pressure from his extremist cabinet to re-start the war and he caved.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)and would not release any more hostages.
What you want has come and gone so what now?
It is like folks are completely oblivious to actual events.
People that call for a ceasefire will not admit their Hamas problem and instead just handwaive it while mouthing words they know good and well have no basis in reality.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Basic LA
(2,047 posts)If the US also abstained, would the Ceasefire Resolution have passed? It's moot, of course, since the US was the sole veto, as we're still bear-hugging Bibi.
Donkees
(33,703 posts)There were 13 votes in favor this time, so it would have passed. About 100 countries co-sponsored the resolution.
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)You're doing outstanding work here with your information.
claudette
(5,455 posts)TV that the U.S. vetoed the UN resolutions for a ceasefire
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)The sole veto! Wow. What a black eye on the US. How many thousands more maimed & killed as a result.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)There was a ceasefire, it was broken.
Those conditions have not changed and nary hostage released.
There is zero call for any actual ceasefire, just continued power with absolute impunity for Hamas.
If that is not the case then what in actual fuck is the plan for dealing with them?
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)Can't keep slaughtering the innocent. It's driving the bereaved toward future resistance. It's driving the world to march in anger. A diplomatic solution is necessary. Where is the Israeli Left in this? Let's help them find their voice. Surely they see what's happening.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)We aren't talking past each. You refuse to address the Hamas part of the equation.
You are steady on what must not be and nonexistent on practical, real world alternatives.
I do not duck the death toll, I see precious little alternative to it that does not leave the also innocent people of Israel under the threat of 10/7 which few of the pro Palestinian folks care to calculate and are lying their asses off when they pretend would see any different reaction by any plausible government on the planet or that they would live with such...for the children or whatever.
What is the Israeli security solution and what the hell is to be done for the poor Palestinians suffering under the yoke of Hamas?
The answer to both is ever a resounding NOTHING.
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)A two-state solution isn't Nothing. Might not be popular, but what's the alternative, slaughtering all Palestinians? Rage & vengeance hasn't secured peace. Displacement & Occupation hasn't. What then?
We could flip the question & ask "what the hell is to be done for the poor Palestinians suffering under the yoke of Israel?" There are no Hamas on the West Bank & Palestinians suffer there.
Friends of Israel are honestly horrified at the Genghis-Khan level of retribution in Gaza. We need alternatives to this, quickly. How about
Israel agrees to stop bombing Gaza & halt the West Bank pogroms in return for release of all hostages & then work with the UN toward a peaceful two-state solution. I know this sounds naive, but it's not Nothing.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)I'm making no argument against a two state solution.
There is no path to one at the moment and won't be one with these groups or anything resembling them as leadership.
The current PA has little juice and is unwilling to do anything for a variety of reasons from corruption to like Hamas not wanting elections to not wanting to be seen as a vassal of Israel or the US.
Whatever the Palestinian people want or don't seems to either have little bearing or this stare of things is somewhere in the neighborhood of the overall desire.
From where we are describe Palestine. Not what you hope. Not what you would dream for the people.
Extrapolate Palestine from here.
Exactly.
What is going to seize control, if not just chaos?
The barbarians have to be rooted out as a prerequisite.
claudette
(5,455 posts)a large protest. Wouldn’t think that many people are antisemitic. More like pro innocent Palestinians who are being slaughtered, starved, driven from their homes to die in the streets with nowhere to go. Doctors Without Borders Rep on TV making a plea for ceasefire to give aid.
oioioi
(1,130 posts)I've started putting them on ignore so I don't have to read their garbage. Life's too short.
Me, too. My ignore list is very long!! I just don’t understand how the U.S. could veto the UN vote for a ceasefire. I’m so disgusted about it.
Donkees
(33,703 posts)oioioi
(1,130 posts)I am not sure what else I can say except that you're not alone in thinking this - let's hope we see better days soon.
I always hope and pray for that
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)The only person who brought that up in this thread is you.
I may be on your ignore list but want to point out that you're being provocative, and others are joining in.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)response or blow back.
They are desperate to normalize it and make being called on it to be the problem just like other racists.
They have elected to mock, minimize, and pretend away presumably to as has happened over and over throughout history to move to the next phase.
Instead they must be confronted and defeated at any cost because failure leads to oblivion.
Butterflylady
(4,584 posts)Never used it before, but now I feel I have to, because if I didn't I'd be throwing my phone through the window. I just can't understand the lack of compassion for human life.
oioioi
(1,130 posts)It's definitely a necessity for the time being though 
Have a good weekend!
Dave Bowman
(7,151 posts)Far Right government of Israel is doing they are called "self-hating Jews" among other things.
malaise
(296,076 posts)Imagine
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)refused to release any more hostages.
Have those conditions changed?
Go talk to your "creative freedom fighters" if you want to do more than imagine.
Go to the source.
David__77
(24,727 posts)Donkees
(33,703 posts)The organizers of the demonstration, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, posted images and video on social media showing large crowds of protesters carrying placards and waving Palestinian flags.
London's Metropolitan Police said they estimate nearly 40,000 people attended the rally.
Two individuals have been arrested so far for carrying offensive placards, police said. A dispersal order is in place until 1 a.m. local time (8 p.m. ET) in the area near Parliament, police said.
"Anyone in the area who is directed by an officer to leave and fails to do so can be arrested," Met Police said.
People gather for a pro-Palestinian demonstration in London on Saturday, December 9. Guy Bell/Alamy Live News via AP
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-09-23/index.html
sarisataka
(22,694 posts)Of who ended the ceasefire a little over a week ago? Or does ceasefire just apply to Israel?
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)
Sal_NV
(606 posts)
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)to process.
At some point it crosses from aspirational to ignorance to deliberate.
Sal_NV
(606 posts)to regroup, re-arm and plot the next terror attack on Israel, which they've openly and quite clearly stated will happen again and again with the intent of wiping Israel off the map and killing every Jew in the ME and the world.
Vladimir Lenin had a name for such people, Useful Idiots.
Mysterian
(6,482 posts)The war on Hamas is necessary for the security of innocent people.
I urge Hamas to surrender.