Message auto-removed

[Name removed]

[Lovie777]

1. Well, well........................

another doomsday article with polling.

[doc03]

3. Yes we had two that joined DU Dec,9, 2023 that made their first post about bad polls for Biden.

Now there is another that joined DU Dec. 8 2023 posting a story that supports Putin's
agenda.

[Lovie777]

4. I've noticed all the doom and gloom posting......................

Apparently keeping up bad news scenarios will depress turn out in 2024 on the Democratic side. But alas, it will do the opposite. Something the haters truly cannot comprehend that Democrats are very much into a bright future.

[Walleye]

7. They are trying to convince people that their vote is worthless

[marble falls]

10. When if it were worthless, they wouldn't be working so hard to steal your vote ...

... if your vote were worthless they'd be giving everyone a vote and be giving everyone two or three votes.

[mymomwasright]

2. No specifics

Ukrainians still prefer to hold until wars end.

[doc03]

5. What next the debunked Russian propaganda claiming

Zelensky bought a $75 million yacht with our Ukraine aid.

[Emrys]

17. You need to learn a bit more about Ukrainian internal politics. n/t

[marble falls]

34. Understatement of the week!

[Emrys]

37. LOL

Mind you, the week is young!

[doc03]

18. So what is your point, we should drop our support for Ukraine and let Putin

take it? Why not just let Putin take over all of NATO, it's none of our business what goes on in Europe.
We should have just ignored Hitler, who cares about England anyway I guess.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. Willful misspelling of names is bad faith posting, especially after being notified multiple times. . . . nt

Proudfoot (16 posts)
33. Really no point about the war
Mon Dec 11, 2023,

Just that there seems to be a not-insignifigant portion of Ukraine that isn't as keen on Zalensky as we've been told to be.

IIUC Klitschko isn't saying "give up", he's just saying Zalensky isn't the one to lead forward. That's not a perspective that gets much airtime over here.

[doc03]

21. Trump is millionaire many times over and is as dumb as a box of rocks. nt

[Rebl2]

47. I am

not convinced he is a millionaire many times over and yes he is as dumb as a box of rocks.

[mountain grammy]

49. You never heard of Zelensky before the war?

makes me wonder if you ever heard of Putin? Do you know where Ukraine is? Were you just born in 2022?

I find it strange to read anyone on this forum saying "I never heard of Zelensky before the war." He was elected in 2019 with 73% of the vote. Trump tried to blackmail him and was impeached... any memory of that?

[yardwork]

51. Let me unpack this.

You never heard of the president of Ukraine before the war, and you don't know how to spell his name, but you know all about Ukrainian internal politics.

And you just joined DU a couple of days ago, but you're telling DUers we should be ashamed?

I've seen this movie before.

[SalamanderSleeps]

6. So, just exactly how do you conduct a poll in the middle of a war?

Do you go door to door?

[doc03]

8. Simple just ask Vlad Putin nt

[Lovie777]

9. In the occupied areas in Ukraine by Russia.....................

illegal voting for dictator Putin they go door to door by gun point.

[marble falls]

11. Of course a wartime leader in fight to the finish with a blood thirsty invader will turn to some ...

... degree of autocracy. Lincoln did away with habeas corpus.

[marble falls]

12. "This isn't some crazy Putinista, this is Vitali Klitschko. " ... because heavy weight boxers are known for their ...

... clear thinking and managerial style.

[doc03]

15. I was wondering WTF is Vitali Klitschko. Now I remember he was critisiing Zelensky

at the beginning of the war. He is a boxer he should know I guess.

[marble falls]

19. Boxers have always been known for their ability to calmly lead and negotiate ...

... Zelensky has done a very good job. He was exactly the right man at that right time for Ukraine.

[Emrys]

23. "been a Kiltscko fanboy for a long time"

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:26 PM - Edit history (2)

We'd never have guessed ...

"As opposed to a comedian?" This could have come from the lips of Vlad Putin himself. It's identical to the patronizing tone about Zelensky from the crazed frothing propagandists all over Russian TV.

If, as you say above, you'd "never heard of Zalensky before the war", I suggest you have such an incomplete understanding of Ukrainian politics that you'd be better off reading, listening and learning rather than spouting off ill-informed opinions.

For what it's worth, Zelensky has a degree in law among a number of other accomplishments as a communicator in various forms.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

32. Here is a picture of Zalensky

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5093936

[Emrys]

35. Well, most people would have at least been aware of Zelensky because Trump tried to implicate him

in blackmailing Biden while Trump was still president in a way that blew up spectacularly across most of the media over an extended period and is still playing out today in some quarters.

It's to some degree surprising that you didn't notice that, but maybe it wasn't covered wherever you're based.

My reasoning is that you evidently know so little about Ukrainian politics that your opinion and judgement carry very little weight. Maybe you'd be better sticking to fanboying over Klitchko.

[Emrys]

42. Reading up and down replies to this OP, a number of us have made some effort to offer you information

If we haven't tried harder, maybe it's because, rightly or wrongly, we suspect your time on DU may not be long.

I couldn't tell you what "percentage of Ukraine agrees with him about Zelensky" because you may be able to grasp that accurate polling is rather difficult to conduct in the present circumstances.

It's irrelevant at the moment anyway because Zelensky has sufficient (in fact, overwhelming) support in Ukraine's parliament to continue as leader, and Ukraine's constitution expressly forbids elections being held under conditions of martial law, a state of law that has been repeatedly overwhelmingly supported in the six times it's been voted for renewal by the parliament since it was initially declared.

Instead, assuming (perhaps foolishly) that you're genuinely curious, I'll offer you a brief, incomplete course in background reading:

Ukraine’s Other Battle: Zelensky vs. the Mayors - https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/89833

EXPLAINED: Why Zelensky and Klitschko are Having a Public Falling Out - https://www.kyivpost.com/post/4799

'He Told the Truth' – Kyiv Mayor Klitschko Agrees with Zaluzhny on War Stalemate - https://www.kyivpost.com/post/24993

Ukraine blocks ex-president from leaving country amid alleged plan to meet with Hungary’s Orban - https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20231202-ukraine-blocks-ex-president-from-leaving-country-amid-alleged-plan-to-meet-pro-putin-hungary-s-orban

Klitschko says Ukraine is turning authoritarian as conflict with Zelensky persists - https://kyivindependent.com/klitschko-says-ukraine-is-turning-authoritarian-as-conflict-with-president-persists/

Once you've read through all that, I'll risk blowing your mind by revealing that Klitchko has a younger brother who's also been a professional boxer of some renown and is his spitting image.

[Emrys]

48. I just wrote you a long reply (followed by yet another) and you accuse me of dodging your question!

Reading through any or all of the articles I've linked will help to fill you in on why your question is (a) impossible to answer with any authority at the moment, and (b) irrelevant. I don't know why you're fixated by it, but maybe this one article in your OP is the sum of your knowledge about Ukraine. I've seen little evidence to contradict that.

Now, if you indeed are "genuinely curious", you have plenty to be getting on with from me. Don't miss the article I linked below about Klitchko's links to Giuliani, dating way back - it's a doozy!

[yardwork]

55. ....

[Emrys]

44. Oh, and out of sheer generosity, I'll offer this bonus instalment in your crash course on Ukraine.

It has a little local flavour, assuming you're based in the US, of course:

Trump impeachment: Giuliani sought help for Kiev mayor Klitschko when meeting senior Ukrainian official

US president's personal lawyer tried to help former world boxing champion keep his job

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-impeachment-ukraine-rudy-giulliani-zelenskiy-vitaliy-klitschko-a9312536.html

[doc03]

63. You could say the same about Joe Biden, Trump or whoever is president

there is always a significant part of the country that will disagree with them.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Using "comedian" as a slam again Zelenskyy is something I see

Using "comedian" as a slam again Zelenskyy is something I see frequently on right-wing sites.

[marble falls]

25. "Sorry, been a Kiltscko fanboy for a long time." Already guessed that. It's blinded you to his criminality ...

Bobby Fischer was a grand champion, too. What possible office do you think he could have held successfully?

Born to a Ukrainian Jewish family, Zelenskyy grew up as a native Russian speaker in Kryvyi Rih, a major city of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in central Ukraine. Prior to his acting career, he obtained a degree in law from the Kyiv National Economic University. He then pursued a career in comedy and created the production company Kvartal 95, which produced films, cartoons, and TV shows including the TV series Servant of the People, in which Zelenskyy played a fictional Ukrainian president. The series aired from 2015 to 2019 and was immensely popular. A political party with the same name as the TV show was created in March 2018 by employees of Kvartal 95.

Zelenskyy announced his candidacy in the 2019 presidential election on the evening of 31 December 2018, alongside the New Year's Eve address of then-president Petro Poroshenko on the TV channel 1+1. A political outsider, he had already become one of the frontrunners in opinion polls for the election. He won the election with 73.23 percent of the vote in the second round, defeating Poroshenko. He has positioned himself as an anti-establishment and anti-corruption figure. As president, Zelenskyy has been a proponent of e-government and of unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population.[4]: 11–13  His communication style makes extensive use of social media, particularly Instagram.[4]: 7–10  His party won a landslide victory in the snap legislative election held shortly after his inauguration as president. During the first two years of his administration, Zelenskyy oversaw the lifting of legal immunity for members of parliament (the Verkhovna Rada),[5] the country's response to the COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent economic recession, and some limited progress in tackling corruption in Ukraine.[6][7][8]

Zelensky has all the education your crooked little boxer has. And a lot more experience in office. And he didn't attach himself to the Putin worshipping former Ukraine leader, Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych.

Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych (Ukrainian: Віктор Федорович Янукович, pronounced [ˈwiktor ˈfɛdorowɪtʃ jɐnʊˈkɔwɪtʃ] ⓘ; Russian: Виктор Фёдорович Янукович, romanized: Viktor Fyodorovich Yanukovich; born 9 July 1950) is a former Ukrainian politician, who was the fourth President of Ukraine[3] from 2010 to 2014. He also served as Prime Minister of Ukraine several times between 2002 and 2007 and was a member of the Verkhovna Rada from 2006 to 2010. A member of the pro-Russian Party of Regions, his removal from the presidency via revolution in 2014 led to the Russo-Ukrainian War. Since then, he has lived in exile in Russia.[4]

I'm not a fanboy - never heard of Zelensky until the Trump tried to beat him up on a perfect phone call.

[ms liberty]

13. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay. Do you like pizza?

[Emrys]

16. Klitschko was a hero of the Maidan, hence his popularity, but has some shady dealings in his background,

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2023, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)

including links to former Ukrainian president Poroshenko, whom Zelensky recently banned from leaving the country on the grounds he was due to visit other state actors who don't necessarily have Ukraine's best interests at heart. I don't know whether that's behind Klitchko's allegations of authoritarianism, but he does seem somewhat uncomfortable about the anti-corruption drive Zelensky's been spearheading. Evidently, the "dictatorship" doesn't stretch to suppressing dissent.

You won't find that context in this week-old article or the many others in rightwing media, and the outpourings of various Kremlinite trolls that excitedly jumped on this as evidence of terminal cracks in Ukrainian unity.

Why the OP decided we needed to see this week-old article at this stage is another matter, but I hope he/she/whatever enjoys the time he/she/whatever gets to spend on DU. I won't bother offering a welcome.

[Emrys]

26. For a start, it's usually transliterated Zelensky (optional -iy or -yy ending), not Zalensky.

It wasn't ignored by American media. Maybe Fox didn't cover it, which may be why you missed it. A second's Googling found the New York Times covered it, as did the Washington Post. Maybe it wasn't much of a surprise that there are political tensions in a war-torn country, hence it didn't get as much traction as you evidently wish it had.

Its not even new news that such tensions exist against the background of the anti-corruption drive. Carnegie Endowment for International Peace went into it in some detail back in May: https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/89833

[Bernardo de La Paz]

29. You would have more credibility if you didn't consistently misspell

Zalensky isn't

I'd never heard of Zalensky before the war

Know that the proper spelling is Volodymyr Zelenskyy

[bluestarone]

27. Your post is a divider.

That's ALL it is. That's your whole purpose here. Ignore will be my response!

[marble falls]

30. Seems like he just wants to mix it up.

[bluestarone]

31. Oh yea, for sure!!

[xmas74]

38. Klitschko is a member of the European Solidarity Party

As is Petro Poroshenko, an Ukrainian oligarch. Zelensky beat Proroshenko for reelection in 2019 and in 2021 was part of passing an anti oligarch law that forced Poroshenko to sell huge shares in several businesses, including his chocolate business. Everyone came together at the start of the war but now cracks are showing and the biggest cries are from those who are affiliated with the oligarchy.

[Emrys]

39. Yup, this is a significant part of it.

Poroshenko, having been somewhat humiliated and disgraced (the disgraced bit is still playing out), was conducting himself well in the early stages of the war, whether from patriotism (as I maybe naively guessed at the time) or a desire to rehabilitate his reputation.

The Ukrainian security services suspected his upcoming tour was going to include a meeting with Orban, a Putin ally and no friend of Ukraine, hence the ban on Poroshenko travelling abroad which may have been among the reasons behind Klitchko's moaning about authoritarianism.

[Emrys]

45. You'll learn more if you actually read the replies to you upthread than you're likely to from Wikipedia,

at least the way you're using it.

That's assuming, of course, that this flurry of questions isn't just sealioning and an effort to waste all of our time.

[xmas74]

59. Now look up Poroshenko.

He's only out for himself.

[yardwork]

53. This is why I love DU. Thank you.

[xmas74]

60. Youre welcome.

I may try to be mostly folksy, Midwest Nice on DU but I know my history and I'm not afraid to cite it.
There's a certain fight on here rn that I've stayed out of because so much of what has been quoted is an exaggeration of the history of the region. As a huge history nerd it's a personal affront.

In the case of The Ukraine Poroshenko was humiliated and is now using human weariness as his tim to strike against his opponent who assisted in passing an anti oligarchy law. His allies have started to circle the wagons and Klitschko is one of them.

[ITAL]

43. In protracted wars, leaders often become more autocratic

By its very nature, war almost calls for this. I remember reading a biography of Lincoln a few years ago where some Republican in Congress WANTED Lincoln to become more dictatorial to prosecute the war more efficiently.

It's a fine line one has to walk and you have to hope that person is more of a Cincinnatus than a Napoleon.

[Torchlight]

50. A rather dramatic assertion of the mayor's, yet reading the story, he fails to support his assertion

Mr Klitschko has been at odds with Mr Zelensky since last winter, when the president accused him of failing to maintain Kyiv’s bomb shelters to the desired level.

Mr Klitschko said that Mr Zelensky was showing authoritarian tendencies that could be dangerous for Ukraine, although it was unclear what he was referring to.

Surface appearance is a mayor who was chided for failing to meet standards, and is lashing out a bit.

[justaprogressive]

52. Horseshit

He's jealous!

[Sanity Claws]

54. Lincoln imposed martial law during the Civil War

I imagine Zelensky has to take certain measures because they are at war.

[Oneironaut]

56. He already kind of was.

Despite the propaganda of Zelensky being a freedom-loving Patriot, Ukraine is a deeply troubled country that struggles with corruption and authoritarianism.

[Kingofalldems]

57. Should we give up and let Putin win?

[Polybius]

58. Wait till he sees that he was at Javier Milei's inauguration yesterday

Link to tweet

[thucythucy]

62. Poland was an autocratic state in 1939,

ruled by a clique of military officers.

I guess Britain and France shouldn't have declared war on Germany when Hitler invaded?