"Please Stop This War Against Us": Gaza Doctor Begs for World's Help as Hunger & Disease Spread

[Nanjeanne]

Watching this segment this morning - and brought to tears by this doctor's pleas.

Listen to Dr. Ahmed Moghrabi of Nasser Hospital . . .

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/11/gaza_hospitals?jwsource=cl]


Amy Goodman: We get an update from one of the few hospitals still operating in southern Gaza from Ahmed Moghrabi, a doctor at Nasser Hospital, who describes horrific conditions. “I’ve developed [a] psychological disorder,” says Moghrabi, who himself is barely surviving on little food and clean water. “Please stop this genocide against us. Stop this war. Please, please, I beg you.”

We also speak with Dr. Tarek Loubani, an emergency room medical doctor shot by the Israeli military in Gaza in 2018, about the arrests, killings and torture of his fellow medical workers by the Israeli military, and the enormous risk of disease as a consequence of the lack of essential aid and supplies available in the region. He predicts tens of thousands of deaths from starvation, dehydration and infectious disease will soon hit Gaza as Israel’s assault continues in the coming weeks.

Yes, I know there are Duers who deem Democracy Now anti-Israel . . . so I'll put that *disclaimer* here at the bottom. I find DN anti-Netanyahu and I'm fine with that bias! After all, Amy Goodman's Democracy Now is called "The War & Peace Report"

[Fozzledick]

1. Only Hamas can do that, and they don"t want to.

[Nanjeanne]

3. Thanks for sharing.

[emulatorloo]

117. It is the truth though. Hamas broke the ceasefire on October 7th. And they broke the recent humanitarian

ceasefire as well. The are doing absolutely nothing to end this war, which they started.

As Bernie Sanders noted yesterday:

I don’t know how you can have a permanent ceasefire with Hamas who has said before October 7 and after October 7 that they want to destroy Israel and they want a permanent war. I don’t know how you have a permanent ceasefire with an attitude like that.

I worry about the people of Gaza too, Hamas doesn’t care about them. The people are at the mercy of an inhumane group.

[DemocraticPatriot]

157. The people of Gaza are at the mercy of TWO 'inhumame groups':

Hamas, and those under the command of Netanhayooo....


I have no sympathy for Hamas, but I don't feel that I want any more of my tax dollars delivered to the far-right current government of Israel, who will use them to kill more women and children in Gaza...

[Sky Jewels]

204. I wish we would cut off Netanyahu and his far right government entirely.

And I wish we had done it years ago.

[TheKentuckian]

205. You're quite welcome.

[claudette]

12. No

It's Nuttyahoo who doesn't want the ceasefire. And it is not Hamas that is bombarding innocents in Gaza causing over 18,000 deaths and hunger and disease on the living.

[Sal_NV]

14. Who violated not 1 but 2 cease fires?

Here's a free clue, it wasn't Israel.

[Big Blue Marble]

22. You add nothing to this discussion of an extremely dangerous catastrophe for two million people

but snark. It tells me a lot about you.

[Sal_NV]

23. I add what I add,

don't like it?
Tough.

[Big Blue Marble]

28. This is not about you or me.

What constructive additions do you add to DU?

[tritsofme]

31. I very much appreciate Sal's contributions so far. Though I understand some folks are frustrated when slapped

in the face with reality.

[Big Blue Marble]

38. He actually lives in some kind of alternative reality,

certainly the real not one happening on the ground in Gaza where a million children are at risk of death
from months of starvation, dehydration and disease.

Fortunately, the vast majority of the world is able to see the reality of the catastrophe these
people are facing and are speaking out.

[TheKentuckian]

138. Fact rather than fiction and hand waiving, is what they are bringing.

[Big Blue Marble]

143. What fiction and handwringing?

One could interpret your comment to demeaning to those who are expressing
extreme concern about the humanitarian catastrophe that is occurring in Gaza.

The one that humanitarian groups are saying over and over again is the worst they
have seen in their lifetimes.

I would hope that is not what you meant.

[Arazi]

186. Then those humanitarian groups never saw Aleppo or Grozny

Or any of the other mass slaughters that were FAR more destructive and horrific.

I simply don’t believe them.

500,000 killed in Syria - silence
377,000 killed in Yemen so far - silence
5,400,000 killed in Congo so far - silence
500,000 killed in Sudan so far - silence

There are active war zones right now including entire cities like Aleppo that simply don’t exist anymore.

Yet only Israel gets singled out.

…cough … antisemitism … cough

[Big Blue Marble]

188. Israel is being singled out now by most of the world because they are killing the Gazans NOW.

You do not know what anyone said or is saying in the above mentioned crises.

This crisis is not over; people are dying every day not just from bombardment,
but from lack of medicine and more are at significant risk.of dying from starvation,
dehydrate, exposure, and lack of medical treatment and medicines.

The obvious answer to your comment is the world is trying to stop this crisis
from expanding in to one that is similar to those that you list.

Hopefully, you want to, too.

[Arazi]

189. Those other wars are happening now too

You do not know what anyone said or is saying in the above mentioned crises

I do. There hasn’t been a single protest about them at all. So yes, we do know that nobody is complaining about those slaughters.

This crisis is not over; people are dying every day not just from bombardment,
but from lack of medicine and more are at significant risk.of dying from starvation,
dehydrate, exposure, and lack of medical treatment and medicines.

5.4 million dead in Congo and continuing… THAT crisis isn’t over either yet … crickets

The obvious answer to your comment is the world is trying to stop this crisis
from expanding in to one that is similar to those that you list.

They want to only stop Israel. Only Israel is getting told to stop defending itself as they work to destroy a murderous terror regime determined to genocide every Jew in the most horrific ways possible. The singular focus on Israel is antisemitic.

Hopefully, you want to, too.

There’s an orchestrated psy-op playing out here. You’ve been played. You’re actually asking if a fellow Dem “wants” an end to the bloodshed. Of course I do but I recognize the reality on the ground that’s getting obscured by the propaganda. Look at this conflict in comparison to every other conflict that’s also occurring right now and maybe you’ll gain more clarity on the psy-op

[Big Blue Marble]

190. The psy-op meme is a psy-op

I am reading more and more Israel defenders use it, to not suspect it is a tactic of proproganda
itself.

How many times have I, as a Democrat been asked (or others on this board) if I care about
the atrocities of Oct 7 or if I support Hamas? Or have been charged with being an anti-semite

The reality on the ground is the desperation of of the starving people of Gaza. There
is no propaganda to it; it is a fact they are dying in increasing numbers.

When every humanitarian agency in Gaza is screaming for a cease fire, do you really think that that is propaganda or they have been pay-op'ed Or that the 153 countries that voted for the cease fire are similarly duped as well? So you are actually claiming that most of the world is being duped by false propaganda
and only Israel and it's supporters are clear-headed. OK

[Arazi]

191. Only Israel and its supporters are receiving this kind of opprobrium

You and the others who refuse to advocate for people getting butchered in ANY OTHER SLAUGHTER going on right now make me sad.

Your singular focus on this conflict says far more about your gullibility (to be generous) than you suspect.

Focusing on Israel to the exclusion of every other FAR MORE MURDEROUS and horrendous war *that are occurring today*, simultaneously, is antisemitic

There’s a reason more and more people are calling it out as a deliberate ploy designed to destroy Joe Biden, because it is.

[Big Blue Marble]

232. You are writing talking points.

When I see similar accusations thrown around like beach balls, it becomes obvious
that these is in themselves are a pay-op. Although I do take note that you, too, acknowledge that
this is a slaughter.

There is no war anywhere that is comparable to this slaughter of the Palestinians that is occurring,

not by the numbers deaths of children in such a short time,
not by number of homes and civic infrastructure destroyed
not by the massive amount of bombs dropped-one and half times the tonnage of Little Boy,
not by the number of people who are trapped and at risk for starvation, disease, and exposure.

This is about an five alarm crisis and humanitarians are crying in desperations to save more than
2 million lives before it is too late.

You are telling fairy tales:

There’s a reason more and more people are calling it out as a deliberate ploy designed to destroy Joe Biden, because it is

[BuddhaGirl]

30. How many more innocent deaths are ok with you?

[Big Blue Marble]

67. They never answer that question.

They are just here to attack not add substance to any discussion.

[Sal_NV]

78. I'm never ok with innocent deaths, and I've never said I am,

but who started this war?
Who violated not 1 but 2 cease fires?
How many more innocent Israelis will be slaughtered if HAMAS is left in power in Gaza?

[AloeVera]

155. It's one thing to say you are not OK with innocent deaths, but that has to mean all innocent deaths.

Someone mentioned that the "ceasefire now" side is suffering from cognitive dissonance but I see it that it is those that claim they care about innocents but continue to cling to certain "facts" as an excuse why those innocent lives should not be saved - well I say they are the ones suffering from cognitive dissonance.

I also think that the side that expects everyone to agree that potentially saving Israeli lives in the future is more important than saving thousands of people at risk of imminent death in the present - that side is going to be disappointed and perhaps shocked that the world does not agree with them.

I say it as I see it too.

[DemocraticPatriot]

165. "but who started the war?"

Who started World War II against the United States? Japan, obviously....

"who started the war" does NOT necessarily justify any and all military actions taken in retribution by the opponent....


Does the Pearl Harbor attack justify the later firebombings of Tokyo and other targets---
which were primarily targeted against civilians?

Not to mention the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which were mostly civilian targets?

I say NO....

Even General Cutis LeMay, who ordered these attacks in Germany and Japan
(later the VP running mate of racist George Wallace in 1968)
recognized, as he said to a fellow officer,
'we better win the war, or we will probably be charged with war crimes for this'

Civilian women and children in Gaza did NOT 'start the war',
but they are the ones being killed for it, in the largest proportion

[CincyDem]

99. As many as Hamas leaders are willing to tolerate.

Who are we to tell the democratically elected government of Gaza how to fight its battles. There is a government. Who am I to judge how they treat their citizens. Who am I to decide from 6000 miles away that I know how to rule Gaza better than Hamas.

Every morning when they decide to not release the hostages…and more recently publicize that the hostages will never be released alive…every morning they say “yesterday’s deaths in Gaza were not enough”. That answers the question.

So my answer to how many is enough…simple…as many as Hamas wants.

[AloeVera]

156. My God.

I can't believe this is what it's come to.

[CincyDem]

158. I know - it's terrible that so many people are unable to see the clear path to shutting all this down.

But, I guess it's easy to blame Israel...facts have never really been necessary for so many for so long.

I stand by my comment - the elected government has decided to conscript the population of Gaza and this will (and should) continue until they decide to end the war they started.

[AloeVera]

166. Those suffering people had NOTHING to do with this fiasco.

Just like the suffering people on October 7th had NOTHING to do with their poor leadership's decisions and actions either. I am sure you do not think they deserved to suffer for electing those leaders.

You are advocating for the collective punishment of an entire civilian population for the sins of their leaders. Did you know that the civilized world considers that a war crime?

Which is happening and it is being done by the government and military of Israel.

[Sal_NV]

72. How many more innocent Israeli citizens are you ok with if HAMAS remains in power?

[Big Blue Marble]

86. Questions such as this do not belong on DU.

Not one person here is OK with any innocence deaths, regardless of ethnicity. I say that
with confidence as you declared you are included in that group.

[Sal_NV]

91. Did you say the same thing to this post?

30. How many more innocent deaths are ok with you?

If not, then that would be an example of hypocrisy.

[TheKentuckian]

140. Strangely, the response was they never answer that

To the question they then decided should never be asked once the shoe was on the other foot.

I know I've answered directly, whatever the count is when the threat is eliminated.

[brooklynite]

95. Funny how nobody DEMANDS that Egypt take in all the Gaza refugees in their plentiful Sinai land...

...that would be the same Egypt that 1) seized Gaza in 1947 rather than give it to the Palestinians and 2) invaded Israeli territory multiple times.

[Big Blue Marble]

101. Funny that Israel did not allow the women and children to leave the Strip through it's gates as well.

Many deaths would have been avoided. Why is Israel preventing these people to have food
and water NOW. And why have they driven them into an area less than the size of Heathrow Airport
huddled on the sandy corner of the Strip without sanitation, shelter, food or water and without
access to health care?

This is not Egypt's fault.

[Nixie]

212. "This is not Egypt's fault."

It's not Israel's fault, either. We know how "many deaths would have been avoided." Deaths would have been avoided by not slaughtering Israelis.

[Big Blue Marble]

217. That is not logic that holds up under the evidence we are seeing every day

There are no excuses for killing, nearly 10,000 children and putting the lives of 1 million others at risk with starvation and disease.

[Nixie]

223. There isn't ever much logic to slaughtering people.

There are also no excuses for slaughtering people. I definitely see a logical connection to not slaughtering people so you don't start a war.

[Big Blue Marble]

226. Of course, except this war did not start really start in October.

It has been off and on for decades.

This is true on both sides:

There are also no excuses for slaughtering people.

[enid602]

113. Palestinians

Egypt’s a basket case, economically. It would be hard for them to take in the Palestinians. Now, if only we could transfer the $15B to pay for Palestinian relocation, everything would be solved. I believe that Palestinians have a right to their homeland, but Palestinians will never be free from the river to the sea.

[AloeVera]

153. Actually...

It's also funny how nobody realized that Israel's "right to self-defense" really meant an orgy of destruction of people, homes, schools, hospitals, mosques and infrastructure, followed by (impending) demands that Egypt or whoever take in the starving, injured and completely dispossessed refugees that they themselves created.

What a way to "defend" yourself and solve the Palestinian "problem" at the same time.

Oh and "plentiful Sinai land"? Unfortunately it's called the Sinai Desert for a reason. Nice place if you're a camel but not so nice for humans.

[DemocraticPatriot]

162. I demand that Egypt take in all the Gaza refugees!

Not that anyone will pay any attention to my 'demands', but at least I said it.


Happy now ?

[Sal_NV]

24. What did I say that wasn't true?

Did HAMAS violate not 1 but 2 ceasefires?

[Big Blue Marble]

29. I really do not care if they violated 10 ceasefires; it is immaterial at this point.

There is an emergency situation where 10's of thousands are at risk for dying in days.

This war needs to stop now. The majority of the world including Americans want a cease
fire now. For gods sake, even Germany (an even bigger supporter than the US) will vote tomorrow
for a cease fire. I repeat, this is an emergency.

[tritsofme]

37. So you prefer a one-sided "ceasefire" where Hamas is allowed to kill Jews

But Jews are not allowed to defend themselves?

Yes, I’m sure that is what many would prefer.

[Big Blue Marble]

39. Israelis certainly seems to be able to defend themselves

with one of the strongest armies in the world and as a nuclear power. I am confident even
with a cease fire to save 2 million lives, Israel will be safe going forward.

[tritsofme]

42. Right, they should just sit by while Hamas murders Jews

After all, I suppose they are only Jews. Why are only Jews asked not to defend themselves?

[Big Blue Marble]

45. You are pushing the boundaries with this comment.

That is all I will say, in response.

[tritsofme]

47. I'm not sure how else to describe a one sided ceasefire. How else could it work?

[Nanjeanne]

51. Oh God as a Jew I am horrified at your remark.Jews can defend themselves. All human beings

can defend themselves. Palestinians too.

This is no longer about defense. Did you actually listen to this doctor? Did you hear him?

[tritsofme]

52. The proposition is that a ceasefire be imposed where Hamas is able to continue targeting Jews

But Israel not be allowed to respond, because of a “ceasefire”

I’m glad you object to such an absurd proposal.

[Nanjeanne]

56. Israel responded. The proposition is that a ceasefire be imposed so that aid can get in, hostages can

be released, people can live, and a political process can be started that might actually give Israeli and Palestinian people peace and security. You do know there are actually Israeli/Palestinian advocacy groups asking for that. With ideas. That’s not an absurd proposal. Endless war is.

In my opinion of course.

[tritsofme]

58. Hamas stopped releasing hostages and broke the last such ceasefire.

Why should we expect a different outcome next time?

[Nanjeanne]

62. Ok then your mind is made up. But you know negotiations are hard.

[Dorian Gray]

207. Hamas stopped releasing hostages

Do you think they're going to start again?

[TheKentuckian]

206. Good old 10/7 safe.

No thanks.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. That is exactly what is going to happen eom

[Cha]

59. Precisely. It's the Opposite of "immaterial". I'm not talking

to anyone who thinks HAMAS Violating Ceasefires is "immaterial".

Fucking Sadistic HAMAS.. FUCK them to hell.. they want to Genocide Israel.. it is Written.

Posted here..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18518790

[TheKentuckian]

137. Signs of being on the dumbest timeline

Completely irrational.

CEASEFIRE!!!

The ceasefire was broken by Hamas.

CEASEFIRE!!! I don't care if Hamas breaks ten. CEASEFIRE NOW!

How is it a ceasefire when Hamas won't cease firing and will not release the hostages they took.

CEASEFIRE NOW!!!

Better off talking to rabid bats or stones.

[Cha]

141. Good Question!! Rec

"How is it a ceasefire when Hamas won't cease firing and will not release the hostages they took."

As I've said.. Talk To HAMAS about it if you want a "ceasefire". They're the ones who won't Stop FIRING.

[tritsofme]

142. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

[TheKentuckian]

136. Breaking ceasefires is immaterial to ceasefires?

That logic is unimpeachable...in The Land of Delusion and Make Believe

[Big Blue Marble]

145. As I said you, one would think you are here to demean those who speak up

for the people of Gaza. I would expect more from you.

[TheKentuckian]

174. I'm for whatever I believe is right regardless of popularity

or who is with me or against me, that should be the expectation.

There is no intent to demean anyone but I do believe a great many are being caught up in a long term, sophisticated web of PsyOps at this point and are being herded to dangerous places for western civilization altogether as well as stoking a new waive of antisemitism.

Something is very wrong at work and people are eating it up and shitting out reason.

[Arazi]

187. I've said this before, the pro-Palestinian group is falling for propaganda

There IS a sophisticated op running and useful idiots are falling for Kremlin crafted propaganda.

It’s working to split Dem support of Biden.

I’m a bit sick watching folks here fall for it

[TheKentuckian]

208. Lack of reason is beyond my scope

Saying breaking ceasefires is not relevant to ceasefires is complete and utter hash.

The people of Gaza are once again forced into the role of human shield, this time from logic.

[Big Blue Marble]

216. The logic of the heart speaks a different language

Perhaps that’s why you didn’t understand.

[PufPuf23]

48. That is an incomplete truth and not helpful of which you

are well aware.

Israel needs better leadership.

[Sal_NV]

80. And so do the Palestinians,

and HAMAS isn't it.

[Cha]

68. Rec... TY for your CONTRIBUTIONS, Sal. You know

Israel would be annihilated if they stopped and HAMA Didn't.

Link to tweet

[AloeVera]

151. Does a ceasefire include your armed forces not killing civilians?

If you accept that assumption, then Israel broke the ceasefire 67 times in Gaza and 288 times in the West Bank in the one-year period leading up to October 7th.

It might be true there are two sides to every story.

[malaise]

178. Of course not

Don’t hold your breath

[enid602]

55. Real Estate

Because this war, after all is about real estate. The PM that can deliver Gaza and the West Bank (sans Palestinians) is golden.

[Bettie]

60. And delivering Gaza is Netanyahu's only play at this point

he needs to keep the war going....once Gaza is empty (either with everyone dead or forcibly removed to...well there's nowhere for them to go, so...) he'll need to move on to the West Bank and remove (one way or another) the rest of the people who are inconvenient to his base: the right wing settlers.

[enid602]

92. Diversion

He’s taking care of the West Bank little by little while world attention is glued to Gaza.

[Bettie]

123. Yep, he is

once he delivers that he'll be the darling of the far right, even more than he is now and he will be in office as long as he wants to be, since it appears that the liberal majority really doesn't have the ability to form a government. No matter what, Netanyahu comes back over and over again.

[enid602]

139. Era

Well, we are in the era of populism, authoritarianism and fascism. Let’s hope it doesn’t come back here.

[AloeVera]

159. Spot on.

That's been my worry too, from the beginning of this. Everything played out as planned. The mass death and suffering, total dispossession and destruction, the eventual displacement, expulsion - all of it. It is really sickening.

[lapfog_1]

130. if this was about real estate

the IDF could have simply refused to let water, food, medicine, and fuel to enter Gaza.

in less than 3 months all the residents of Gaza, except maybe Hamas, would be dead in a horrible actual genocide.

Not saying that Bibi wouldn't accept such a thing but, right now, there is zero evidence that Israel is trying to take over Gaza and either kill or move all of the Palestinians out.

[AloeVera]

163. Evidence?

I'm not sure if you've thought about how 2.4 million people can continue to live in tiny Gaza now that most of their homes and civic and public infrastructure has been destroyed, their aquifer probably poisoned, their public health system no longer functioning?

[DemocraticPatriot]

160. HAMAS doesn't want to end the war either, they have said so....

(other than to regroup, which they haven't said)


So we have two sides fighting against each other, neither of which wants to end the war anytime soon---

and the Palestinian civilians are in the middle....


People who want peace are just FUCKED in this situation...

[DemocraticPatriot]

161. Claudette, dear........... I sympathize with you, BUT---

Yes, HAMAS does not have the resources to bomb the people of Gaza--- but they don't want any ceasefire, either
(except for the purpose of reorganizing for another attack)

so they only use small-arms fire against those Palestinian civilians who are trying to escape the holocaust on routes suggested by the Israeli IDF...



There are no 'good guys' here.

[Bettie]

171. There are no good guys here

You're right. Both sides have leadership that are locked into what they want and neither set of leadership really cares about the ordinary people caught up in the whole mess.

It's about rich men (Netanyahu and the Hamas guys who don't even live in Gaza) exercising their enormous egos against a whole bunch of people who just want to live their lives.

[Big Blue Marble]

175. Hamas has asked for cease-fire on their terms of course.

But they definitely want one (not that that makes them even less of bunch of really
horrible men.)

[DemocraticPatriot]

193. But they also want a 'never-ending war'....

which is not congruent with any 'cease-fire'.....


Of course the Israeli leadership seem to want the same thing---
a war which will go on for many months or many years....


I've had enough of the whole thing.
Whatever we were going to send to Israel should go to Ukraine, instead, IMHO...

The IDF doesn't seem to need our help

[Big Blue Marble]

195. I agree. Both Hamas and Netanyahu want this war to continue.

I pray that Biden will separate himself and US from this disaster however he can.

[DemocraticPatriot]

196. President Biden is very 'old school' and slower to react----

but he needs to call for a halt to the bombing, if not a 'cease-fire'....
If Israel must eliminate Hamas, they should do it with bullets instead of bombs..... and thereby reduce civilian casualties in Gaza.

I think he seems to be headed in that direction
(and seems to be bringing much more pressure on Net-whatshisname and the Israeli gov't in private,
than is evident publicly.....)

[Big Blue Marble]

197. Yes I agree.

I have been saying virtually the same thing. Now that the IDF is on the ground in Gaza,
go after Hamas directly. I am confident the fighting capacity of the Israeli Army
far exceeds that of the Hamas militants.

Encouragingly, in the last 24 hours, Biden has made statements that seem to be public signals to Bibi
hat his patience is wearing thin. For the sake of the Gazans and hopefully the hostages, this
war will be over in weeks not months.

[DemocraticPatriot]

198. On the other hand, today I read an article which said 20% of Israeli ground casualties in Gaza

were due to 'friendly fire' or accidents--- and that the IDF was confirming that....


If they can't help killing so many of their own soldiers in Gaza, that doesn't bode well for the Gazan civilians, does it....

[Big Blue Marble]

199. It does not. That is a startling and disturbing number.

I have already heard reports of civilian deaths due to sniper fire and tank shells.

[DemocraticPatriot]

200. The article also noted that many Israeli casualties may have been due to

their own continued bombing.....


I think President Biden should call for a halt to the Israeli bombing--- if not a ceasefire....

(and it seems that might be in the best interest of the Israeli forces, as well as innocent Gazan civilians)


Sniper fire and tank shells don't kill as many civilians as big bombs....

[Big Blue Marble]

202. I did not know that about the Israeli bombing casualties either.

That sounds like the bombing as as well targeted as we have been told. How
infuriating and frightening to lose your fellow soldiers in so much friendly fire.

It is definitely time to stop the bombing. I heard on a podcast that our soldiers
in Iraq are subjected to concussive effects to their brain from the attacks they have
received. Not from injuries just the shock waves. Anyone who has been in Gazar
for two months and under constant bombardment is receiving these concussive
shock waves constantly. Everyone there will have long term brain injuries from
these effects alone.

[TheKentuckian]

201. They could have kept the one they had or agree to the terms agreed upon

and that is extending an awful lot of consideration to anti-civilization monsters that make the corrupt and wicked Netanyahu look like Sagan in comparison.

While I appreciate the great desire to get as many hostages back alive, as possible it is stupicidal to negotiate at all and it is beyond irresponsible to even think about releasing anything even telescope range of the ballpark of the new demand for some 6,000 operatives to reinforce them no matter the outcry of loved ones. It would cost too many lives and resources.

They will always break any deal with disregard for their worthless word and violence anyway.
Then they will come right back crying foul to the response to their acts of aggression to ratchet their demands.
The more they get the better their position to make more demands.

Further, when the tactics are rewarded it can only serve as encouragement of them.

The use of human shields and the terrorism.

Every rape, kidnapping, murder, and mutilation encouraged to be repeated until the cancer has nothing else to feed on then eats whatever of itself that remains.

That is "negotiating" and they will never stop. Never until they are stopped.
Same with Hezbollah that is near dominating Lebanon and of course on the attack 24/7 in the West Bank. Same tactics, different sect.

Every inch is squeezed for a mile and when there is more juice forthcoming they kill the hostages, blame Israel or the US, and go back to what they do while the Lawfare and propaganda arms gnash teeth to get ahead of the next major attack.

The next attack they already have their marionettes around the world primed and whining to beat the band about the response that hasn't happened yet while a terrorist is still "creatively" and "opportunistically" performing a "field mastectomy" on his rape victim before snuffing her as he gets his "devout" happy ending or dragging her away bleeding, in shock, and pleading to show his "reverance" with yet more "creativity" with his "devout" brethren.

Rinse, escalate, repeat.

Rinse, escalate, repeat.

Rinse, escalate, repeat.

The best offer should be NOTHING. The next a grave. The next a pyre. The next the buzzards.

[Big Blue Marble]

203. Kentuckian, you make your thoughts clear.

IMO, the situation is somewhat more complex that you choose to see it.

I suspect Hamas's days in Gaza are coming to an end one way or the other very soon.
And I am gravely concerned for the lives of the hostages. If Israel traded 1000 prisoners for
one soldier, there is certainly precedent for trading 6000 prisoners for 138 hostages.

Unfortunately, after this catastrophe, unless and until Israel chooses to resolve their
crisis with the Palestinian's in a way that respects their human rights and dignity, more
terrorist groups will emerge and once again jeopardize Israel's security.

General McChrystal has an interesting take on the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict
in this interview:

"Former US general Stanley McChrystal: Israel gives Palestinians no incentive to co-operate"

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/12/05/former-us-general-stanley-mcchrystal-israel-gives-palestinians-no-incentive-to-co-operate/

[TheKentuckian]

220. Perspective acknowledged

They are deeply unhappy because they want Israel to cease to exist and they can get on with the rest of the infidels before turning on each other in sectarian violence.

The Afghanistan model seems on the weak sauce at best considering in the end all we could do is bail and cede the place back to who we supposedly had to to take down at all costs and obviously going into Iraq was beyond folly but he he knew better at the time so his judgement is suspect to me anyway.
The always wrong always keep sending up their chestnuts, they keep being wrong.

We just slaughtered up all kinds of folks that we flailed about to beat up on SOMEBODY wanting nothing to do with actually going to the sources especially in Saudia Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan.

I don't appreciate the same old song and dance across the bridge to nowhere though. "It will be tough" and basically seeming to be counseling to just absorb the terrorism and "talking" with hyper regressive arch theocrats devoid of honor.

You appease. They break their word with violence on top, they cry foul whole making demands with a floor of where they broke the peace and their word

Talk. Laughable.

Some old bullshit.

The pattern and objective are clear with these fucks.
They will be satisfied when they control the globe and have slaughtered all they deem less than devout or worthy.
All the whole time leveraging their own people to defend from attacks to squash their devilish games.

Murdering and raping up a music festival doesn't seem too stellar of an "incentive" so if lil bro or cuz wants to join in then he chose poorly.
Fiendishly using people's very humanity as a weapon over and over is vile and rewarding it is a ticket to suicide of civilization.

The cudgel is far too handy. As long as they are willing to spend more of their own blood than you are, they win.
How this is missed as be toxic to the existence of western civilization is beyond me.

The Europeans are out of their fuckkng minds, they will get eaten up in a few bites.

We are as close to invulnerable as geography and relative possible opposition allows, so our dumb asses will just rip ourselves apart or deadlocked and unable to function.

It is past time to put clear doubt to that strategy rather than demanding appeasement to it.

Plus, he can bullshit all he wants but put the good old USA in the same place and Gaza would have been glass long ago and little chunks of it would be on sale from the Franklin Mint.

We will kill em up by the hundreds of thousands and you don't even have to attack us at all.

The Fantasy Island Doctrine is poppycock, we probably have some action about some money or oil going right now, usually do.

If anybody says boo, our Lawfare will lay out how we had achievable objectives and the targets were high value so proportional and valid. They were bad so just war.

If it carries on then we veto and go about the day.

[LymphocyteLover]

192. Hamas only wants a ceasefire to catch their breath and recover

you honestly think Hamas cares about ordinary Gazans dying?

[Cha]

50. Rec.. Exactly and GD Butchers of HAMAS Don't want a

Ceasefire.

Israel Did that and HAMAS Violated it. They want WAR and they Don't Want a Ceasefire .

Israel is NOT going to lay down and let HAMAS Kill them ALL. Fuck that Fucking NOISE. HAMAS does Not give one Shit about the Palestinians.

HAMAS the Butchering Sadistic Terrorist org's Mission is Written

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

Hamas: ‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it’

Over a month after Hamas’ brutal attack on Israel and her people, both parties have agreed to a deal on hostage and prisoner exchanges, and a ceasefire to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. While civilians will receive food, water, and emergency care amid the exchange negotiations, Hamas’ radical indoctrination of antisemitism will continue to spread.

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: O’ Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him,” reads the Hamas Covenant that outlines a path to the group’s goal of destroying Israel through jihad. This mantra, riddled with blatant hate, was clearly reflected when the terrorist group broke an ongoing ceasefire with its attack on Israel on October 7 that prompted this wave of conflict. Footage of Israeli citizens being shot while driving their cars, children being murdered in their bunk beds, and families hunted in their own neighborhoods brings this atrocity of a covenant to the public eye.

https://newhouse.house.gov/media/weekly-columns-and-op-eds/hamas-israel-will-exist-and-will-continue-exist-until-islam-will

[womanofthehills]

69. Not exactly - most countries when attacked don't commit genocide

Also- the whole Arab world saw the naked Gaza civilians kneeling with their hands bound & covered.. The US being complacent in this is making the US way less safe as this video is radicalizing people in Arab countries. This plus the fact that we were the only country in the world to vote against ceasefire at the UN is putting the US at risk.

[onecaliberal]

71. And by their logic, the excuses they use to justify....

[claudette]

109. This is

Frightening. More hate is being born in the young Palestinians who have never been attacked like this. What is wrong with the world for letting this happen?

[GuppyGal]

96. Also ...just begging Israel to stop this war that was started by their leaders? Not please everybody stop the

fighting....just friggin Israel????

[AloeVera]

164. Geez.

Which side's civilians are being killed by the dozens, hundreds each day at the present time? Also, which side is attacking with a modern military and carrying out bombing, shelling, on the other's territory?

Really.

[lapfog_1]

2. please rise up against Hamas

organize, steal some of their weapons, turn them over to the IDF

there are 1 million of you ( adults ) and only 30,000 of them.

That will end the war.

[Nanjeanne]

5. He's a little busy right now.

[lapfog_1]

16. not too busy, apparently, to do an interview begging the war to stop

but instead of begging the western media to stop the war and thereby doing Hamas's bidding, he should be sending the message to revolt against Hamas to the men of Gaza ( and women too ).

Hamas wants a cease fire... but only one sided. Have they offered to release more captives? Have they offered to recognize Israel? Have they promised to disarm and stop firing rockets into Israel?

No? Didn't think so. In fact, Hamas continues to say that they will repeat Oct 7 as many times as it takes to eradicate all Jews from the region.

By the time the allies in WWII fire bombed Dresden, it was clear the allies were going to win the war. Dresden was far worse for the civilians of Dresden than anything the IDF have done to Gaza. And yet there was no protest against the USA, no calls for a cease fire.



Germany was, at that time, unable to defend against such attacks... very much like Hamas versus the IDF.

[Nanjeanne]

19. I'm so glad that's what you got from his plea. Humanity thanks you.

[Sal_NV]

20. And there it is again.

Humanity thanks you

[Nanjeanne]

46. Yes humanity does thank you. They shouldn't? If they shouldn't thank you for your caring - then

that’s really on you isn’t it. I think it’s kind of important to hear someone’s pleas and feel their pain. But everyone’s diffeeent as I’m discovering sadly here.

[lapfog_1]

21. please, tell me YOUR plan to stop the war

but be sure to include the part of the long term peace where Hamas does not fire rockets into Israel or send hundreds of murderers to rape and execute over 1200 people and kidnap 200 more in the future.

Humanity will thank you.

[Nanjeanne]

35. It's a difficult answer and many more thoughtful people are pondering it. I doubt you have any real

Last edited Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:51 PM - Edit history (1)

desire to read various ideas but just on the off chance your question is a legitimate one — I’ll refer you to Israeli, Palestinian, US, foreign writers, journalists, politicians, activists, scholars who have some ideas on how peace might be achievable and what certainly won’t.

Nathan Brown https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/11/03/there-might-be-no-day-after-in-gaza-pub-90920]

Peter Beinhart https://archive.is/wwoGs]

Daniel Levy

?si=KtFwchkEIdFJnoV4] or https://archive.is/sOFiI]

Omer Barton https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/29/israel-gaza-settlement-palestine-end-occupation]

Abdul Aziz Said https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20231024-a-conflict-resolution-expert-on-peace-and-the-israel-hamas-war.cfm]

There’s so many more but that can get you started.

[lapfog_1]

73. ok

Nathan Brown... not a single idea on how the war stops... something blah blah about the war "winding down" with absolutely no stated speculation on why that would happen. Lots of paragraphs on the post war Gaza situation ( with the ever popular "Arab states do not want to lift a finger to help Palestinians" ). No concrete plan to get rid of Hamas. Says the buffer zone between Gaza and Israel will be much larger (good luck with that) and speculation that the IDF will construct watch towers in Gaza (talk about your open air prison).

Peter Beinhart - you didn't link to his article, you linked to letters to the editor about his article. All the letters are universally negative on what he had to say. Some respondents were suggesting that the Arab states must be pressured into accepting Palestinian refugees and granted citizenship in the Arab countries - while allowing the the Arab states want no part of such a solution. Fails to mention that Palestinians want no part of such a solution either. I tried to click on the link to the actual article but the link didn't work.

Omar Bartov - a lot of speculation as what led up to this war, including a wrong statement that it was Israeli occupation of territories in the West Bank to led to Hamas attacking Israel ( I don't believe Hamas gives a shit about the West Bank ). There was one paragraph that I will cut and paste here that the far far left here in the USA should read...

"The current atmosphere on US campuses and in other intellectual forums is just as unhelpful. Some self-styled leftists and supporters of the Palestinian cause have praised the heinous massacre of 7 October and rejected Israel’s right to defend its citizens by attacking Hamas, which is sheltering in densely populated areas. Others have shown a remarkable lack of empathy with the hundreds of Jewish victims and hostages. Many condemnations of the Israeli bombing of Gaza often do not even mention Hamas’s initial terror attack, or refer to with it the sort of opaque or obfuscating language that pro-Palestinian activists rightly condemn when applied to Palestinian suffering."

I tried to read all three. All are heavy on either what led up to the attack of Oct 7. I think some are missing the point that I believe ( without enough evidence ) that Bibi PLANNED it ( sort of ). Let me explain. It is well know that the kibbutz in the southern part of Israel have been home to left leaning Israelis, many of whom were Palestinian supports... or at the least opponents of Bibi. Fact 2 Bibi encouraged the payments of millions of US dollars over the years using the auspices of Qatar to make the payments. Fact 3. Mossad knew about the plan for at least a year for Hamas to attack Israel and even captured on film Hamas training using paragliders which could rapidly insert a fighting force behind the fence line and the IDF forces manning the guard towers. Fact 4. Bibi and his government moved the troops from Gaza sector to the West Bank, even though Gaza was increasing the number of rocket attacks... and Fact 5. The attack was launched at 6:30am... and it was some 6 hours later for the IDF to mount a rescue... and IDF forces were less than 1 hour drive (some much closer) from the site of the attack. Why the delay? talk about LIHOP.

The day of the attack was coordinated with the music festival less than 3 miles from Gaza DMZ. Hamas knew there would be 3000 18 to 30 year olds (mostly), unarmed, civilians at the music festival. They attacked the music festival from 3 directions (leaving only the open fields to the east as an escape route, a killing field where festival goers could be picked off a dozen at a time ).

Hamas brutally murdered 1200 Israelis, mostly unarmed peaceful civilians. There will be no pause in the war, no lasting cease file, until nearly all Hamas military people are identified and killed (or maybe arrested). No other country on the planet would be told by the world community of nations to stop a war against a state sponsor of terror. No one told the USA to stop wars post 9/11... even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. No one told Russia to not kill the Chechen terrorists that attacked and killed some Russians... even though Russia killed more Russians than the terrorists did during the "rescue".

[Nanjeanne]

77. Sorry posting on phone. I'll check links later. I did quick search while waiting in post office.

You could look up stuff yourself. But you apparently are extremely well versed and knowledgeable and have so many answers that it doesn’t pay for someone as obviously not as knowledgeable as you to respond to your long post. Will have to agree to disagree.

I’ll fix links later if others less well informed than you.

[emulatorloo]

132. Yes please fix the links. Thank you!

[Nanjeanne]

147. Will do tomorrow when I get get to my computer!

[Nanjeanne]

176. Only one link was off - and it's fixed now. Despite what one person disregards - there's some very thoughtful reading

in these articles to add nuance and shading to a difficult process - but one I believe needs to start now.

[claudette]

13. Please tell me

if the IDF (with all the weapons supplied by the U.S.) cannot "get" Hamas, how do you expect ordinary citizens to do it?

[lapfog_1]

17. well, for one thing, there are 1 million adults there

and they are not wearing IDF uniforms. Plus they live there, some probably know every tunnel under the territory. And Hamas, initially, would have no reason to shoot fellow Palestinians.

Internal revolts are much harder to stop, especially at times of war when the armed forces of Hamas are focused on the IDF.

It would certainly be worth the try to end the suffering of the 2 million civilians.

Even if Biden the rest of the world told Bibi that "no more weapons, no more money"... do you think the IDF will stop their operation? To the IDF, this is a fight for survival. Either Hamas is destroyed or Israel will be destroyed.

[Big Blue Marble]

26. You are actually blaming these people for starving themselves to death?

I will say it again this proposal is absolutely ludicrous

A false premise:

Either Hamas is destroyed or Israel will be destroyed.

[claudette]

32. And where would

They get the weapons needed to overcome the weapons Hamas has? Blaming the victims is not the answer and expecting them to do the impossible is atrocious

[lapfog_1]

90. where does resistance movement from time immemorial get their weapons

from their oppressors or smuggled in from friendly forces from outside.

Even Hamas people need to sleep. They are current scattered around gaza, probably hiding in small rooms or in not yet bombed apartments. A organized force of many 50 Palestinians could liberate enough weapons from one group of Hamas to give them the ability to attack more Hamas and grow their weapons stockpile.

All it takes is a spark and a willingness to revolt.

That is, unless they actually support Hamas? But we have been reassured over and over that they do not really support Hamas.

The options are revolt, kill or capture all Hamas and turn them over to the IDF... or the IDF continues with the war. Not a fair choice, but it is the only one that exists. Asking the IDF to unilaterally lay down their arms... let Hamas regain strength, and mount another massacre is also unacceptable, or "atrocious" as you say.

[claudette]

106. Again

If the IDF can't get Hamas how are ordinary Palestinians supposed to. Its ridiculous. Think about it.

[lapfog_1]

128. they have a much better chance of getting Hamas than does the IDF

especially if the IDF is in uniform (as required by the laws of war) and armed and trying to confront Hamas in the tunnels.

You understand that the IDF ground forces in Gaza right now probably number less than 10,000 troops.

Hence the aerial bombardment that leads to all the civilian casualties.

Not ridiculous. It is the only way to end the war without the complete destruction of Gaza and without leaving Hamas in charge.

The only other possibility is for an Sunni Arab coalition to invade Gaza and take over. I rate that possibility at zero or near zero.

I don't think that the IDF will stop... no matter what the USA or the world says or does. And frankly, it's not fair for us or anyone to even ask them to stop. They cannot leave Hamas in charge. Period. Stop. End of Story.

I admit it could be a long shot, especially considering the state of Gaza and the inhabitants.

But if you have a better idea to save the lives of Gaza residents and yet removes Hamas from power...

Or are you saying that Israel should accept the murder and rape of 1200 people including babies in their cribs and the kidnapping of over 200 and that they HOPE it doesn't happen again?

[claudette]

148. That last

paragraph was completely unnecessary. Bye

[lapfog_1]

149. sorry if it offended you

but declaring a cease fire right now of indeterminate length is essentially saying that the war is over.

To stop the war means to stop bombing... using ground forces alone puts the IDF at a much worse position than Hamas. Hamas knows the tunnels and safe houses, they have likely stockpiled thousands to 10s of thousands of automatic weapons and god know how many rounds of ammunition, not mention the booby traps that have been set, hoping for an IDF invasion. I would not want to be the commander to order my troops into such a place to face such an enemy.

So a cease fire is really an end to the war, an end to getting Hamas and arresting or killing them.

And since the reason for the cease fire is to keep the Gaza civilian population alive, then it is logical and required that clean water and food, medicine and shelters, and, eventually rebuilding all of the housing so the civilians can at least live again.

And which will leave Hamas in control... and it is only a matter of time until the massacre of Israelis happens again and we are all back where we are right now. I believe the political leaders of Hamas when they promised just that.

[AloeVera]

168. Ceasefire now or death for many now.

What strikes me is the part where you say "to stop the war means to stop the bombing..." and explain that a ground war is too dangerous for IDF soldiers.

To kind of point out the obvious (to me at least, and maybe a few others), that's kind of cowardly on the part of the IDF. It boils down to exchanging many civilian lives, including children, for the lives of IDF soldiers.

To put it more bluntly, Israel may think the lives of its soldiers are more valuable than the lives of Palestinian civilians, but most people view it differently because well, soldiers are supposed to be soldiers and civilians are not. This is a large part of the outrage seen around the world.

It's similar to how we are expected to go along with the view that it is more important to hopefully save innocent Israeli lives in the future than it is to save innocent lives in the here and now (and not kill in the first place), especially since we are now looking at a major, unimaginable loss of life. It doesn't sit right with us.

It's either a ceasefire (it wouldn't be one way, as you put it, it wasn't the last time either) or it's a horrible death for thousands imminently.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. The Hamas / Gazan Military

Are related to people, are friends with people . . . the Gazans know who their Military force is. They know. They could sabotage them from within.

The French figured out how to booby trap the booby traps in Southern France in WW2. You don't need big guns to take down bad actors in your midst.

[claudette]

107. The starving

sick injured dying victims are going to defeat Hamas when our weapons in the hands of the IDF can't? It is ludicrous to even suggest it

[EX500rider]

194. So all 2 million of them now are sick injured and dying?

That seems unlikely

[AloeVera]

167. LOL.

Wish I thought of that!

Always the 'helpful" but impossible, absurd suggestions, eh? (Using my Canadian colloquialism).

These suggestions and options are so clearly intended to obfuscate, deflect and blame. Nothing helpful about them at all.

[Big Blue Marble]

25. You do realize how insensitive and uninformed this sounds.

If you are watching any coverage out the Strip, most people are weakened starving and dehydrated.
If they move out of the "safe zones" they are likely to be killed by Israeli snipers.

They are saying they are trying to live for one more day, queuing for 5 hours for a little water
for their children. Others are weakened by constant diarrhea and disease.

And you do know that the Hamas weapons as well as Hamas are in the tunnels. So even
if the will was there, there is no access.

The best solution to save 2.3 million lives is to stop the war now.

[Nanjeanne]

36. Many seem to have a knee jerk response and no desire to actually be thoughtful or humane. It's

Very sad and I worry for our collective humanity.

[Big Blue Marble]

44. As long as there are compassionate thoughtful people like you Nanjeanne,

we have a chance. Most people in the world do care about the Palestinians and more
will as they learn of the plight of these people. That gives me hope.

[Nanjeanne]

49. Your kind. But I'm frightened. I've got family in Tel Aviv who work for peace organizations and

who knew people murdered on Oct 7 and I’m horrified by what I hear every day here. My skin isn’t as thick as my cousins.

I keep telling myself that while there are some thoughtful people here who simply disagree with how peace can be achieved and that’s fine because debate is good — more simply Pavlovian dog it with no desire to read or think. Much less feel.

[womanofthehills]

88. Give me a break

Hundreds of videos online of IDF soldiers in West Bank arresting and pointing guns at toddlers & at 5 yr old kids and dragging them away crying for maybe throwing a stone. I doubt any Palestinian would turn anyone over to the IDF.

?si=HBjjAgwfkMITuugG

[lapfog_1]

94. with the exception of the blindfold and handcuffs on the father

if a 5 year old here in the USA was throwing rocks at the police... the exact same thing would have happened.

BTW, chances are here the child would have faced charges.

Think I am wrong?

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/body-camera-police-footage-5-year-old-boy/65-48579fa7-8422-48b4-8f6f-f5361721879a

in this case the boy was not throwing rocks, just didn't want to go back to school... and they handcuffed him

[Sal_NV]

4. You really want to stop the war?

Tell HAMAS to release the remaining hostages, alive and dead, and lay down their arms and allow honest elections in Gaza, then the war will stop.

[Nanjeanne]

6. I really want to stop the war but I'm afraid I'm not in touch with Hamas. Thanks for your input. Humanity thanks you.

[Sal_NV]

15. You just couldn't resist the snide little remark could you?

Humanity thanks you

You could have left that out but you just couldn't resist.

[Big Blue Marble]

27. You do know that your remarks are extremely insensitive.

And that is putting it kindly.

[Nanjeanne]

53. Sorry you are offended. I'm offended by your flippant thoughtless answers to problems requiring

thoughtful answers. I’m happy to have discussions on actual ideas. But this post was about a physician trying to keep people alive. THAT’S what this was about. You insist on posting in every thread the same disingenuous and flip remarks even when the thread has nothing to do with what you desperately need to keep saying.

[TheKentuckian]

120. What is disingenuous about going to the source?

The attack on 10/7 hand waived.

The hostages are still captive. Hand waived.

The murderous rampaging rapist resumed their barrages. Hand waived.

Talking about fucking disingenuous!

[Nanjeanne]

127. People hand waved 10/7?Hostages still captive? Rapists hand waved? Never saw that on DU. Guess i

don’t go into those threads.

[EllieBC]

154. Worse than hand waved.

A small little group of posters sputtered and stuttered through, “well well occupation!” on October 7th.

Yes, there was hand waving. And some apologetics for terrorists.

[TheKentuckian]

121. Oh and a giant one.

Use of human shields causing the civilian deaths.

Absolutely hand waived.

[Nanjeanne]

126. Someone hand waved using human shields? - that's disgraceful. There's no excuse for using people

as human shields. That’s why guerilla wars are so difficult to fight.

[Cha]

84. Your posts are Reality Based and that seems to offend.

and yeah the snark isn't helping anything.

Link to tweet

[EX500rider]

152. Are you authorized to speak for all of humanity?

How does one get that gig?

[Nanjeanne]

169. I speak for myself. I worry about humanity. You want to get that gig. Have empathy, compassion. It works.

[EX500rider]

181. Empathy can cloud reason at times

Which will be better for Gaza in the long run:

The IDF continues now until they are done and Hamas is reduced enough to no longer control Gaza
Or
A cease fire leaving Hamas to continue its attempted genocide against Israeli citizens forcing the IDF to invade & bomb Gaza every few years forever, adding up to a much greater civilian casualty count in the long run.

I don't see a option C

War is about hard choices

In WWII the allies had to prep the D-day landing areas in France with months of bombing 1st, going after rail & supply depots and bridges and crossroads etc In the end over 20,000 French civilians were killed but without the pre-invasion bombardment the landing might have failed, leaving the French under the thumb of the Nazi's for who knows how long.
Without the opening of the Western Front the Russians may not have made it to Berlin in '45 and the war could have gone on a lot longer.
On avg a million people a month died in WWII, were the 20,000 French a sad but reasonable exchange to end the war as soon as possible to save the million a month dead?
Japan had to be finished also, thus the heavy bombing of Japan which also killed many civilians but also sped up the end of the war which was killing a million people a month.

Saying "Oh no, you are killing too many French civilians! Stop!" And then the war dragging on for another year might have meant 12 million more people dying.

[maxsolomon]

7. The deaths from dehydration and dysintery will come before starvation.

There is still time for another ceasefire that could get water to Gaza - but Hamas will need to free male hostages this time. There aren't many women and children left.

[NoRethugFriends]

8. Oh wow! It is called "The War and Peace Report" Now I'm convinced.

[Nanjeanne]

9. Thanks for listening.

[NoRethugFriends]

10. Oh, you're so nice.

[Nanjeanne]

11. Thanks! I try to be. As I'm sure you do too.

[lapfog_1]

18. The far far left, is sooo far left that

3 prominent university Presidents could not say that calling for genocide of jews is hate speech and worthy of firing any staff or expulsion of any student that utters that sentiment.

This is why the right keeps pounding on "woke" (but, of course, stretching the definition to include things they don't like).

I am a leftist... sometimes far left. But it is clear to me to call for genocide against any group is hate speech. I don't want every MAGAt dead ( that would include my sister and 2 of her daughters ). I just want them to live in a fact based world and not believe conspiracies. And not be part of a cult.

[Renaissance Man]

34. Hate Speech is Protected by the U.S. Constitution

Believe it or not, hate speech is protected by the United States Constitution, and all of those students that attend Harvard, MIT, and Penn, are protected by that Constitution. That's precisely why those university presidents answered those questions in the manner in which they answered them.

I would never like someone saying "death to all Jews" or "all Jews should die in a genocide," but unless that speech arises to the level that someone immediately acts upon that speech and causes bodily harm or death to another person, it is protected.

Sometimes, I think that in our vigilance to denounce things that we don't like, we hastily take positions on fundamental rights that should be untenable. That's not how the First Amendment is set up. It protects a lot of detestable stuff that we don't agree with, and the cure to ignorant and hate-filled speech isn't to shut it down. It's to counter it with enlightened speech.

[tritsofme]

65. I agree hate speech is protected by the Constitution. It doesn't mean these private universities

cannot punish such conduct.

[Renaissance Man]

81. Is it permissible according to the Constitution?

Each of these private universities still receive funding from the federal government, so each of them (even though they are private) are still required to abide by the Constitution as it relates to protecting speech rights of students that are enrolled at their universities. We still live in the United States of America. The First Amendment still exists.

I'm sure their codes of conduct for their students are in line with the Constitution, and should they discipline students for speech conduct completely within protection of the First Amendment, then the universities would be sued.

So, yes, they have the authority to impose discipline. They also have the capacity to be sued.

[tritsofme]

85. Are you sure that's true? It could be statutorily required?

But I don’t believe that merely accepting federal funding would require a private university to mirror First Amendment speech protections. Interesting question.

[Jedi Guy]

230. With all due respect, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the First Amendment.

Hate speech is indeed protected by the US Constitution. The First Amendment says the government can't punish (i.e., imprison or execute) you for speech or expression unless it crosses very specific lines, known as the Brandenburg Test, which you referred to in passing.

But that's all it says. No one has a right to attend university, public or private, and therein lies your misunderstanding. Attendance at university is a privilege, and that privilege can be revoked by the university in certain circumstances. Universities, private or public, can and absolutely do create codes of conduct that faculty and students are expected and required to abide by, and those codes of conduct can and do include restrictions on speech and expression. If those faculty or students fail to abide by those codes of conduct, they most certainly can be punished, up to and including expulsion. That is the agreement between the parties when someone attends or teaches at a university, no different than a contract between employer and employee.

From the description of the things that were chanted/said at these protests, those students (and faculty, as some were surely involved) were 100% deserving of sanction by the university for violating the code of conduct. That the university failed to do so tells me one of two things. Either they're so gutless they're afraid to enforce their own rules or they agree with what was said. Based on the rampant antisemitism in academia, I'm inclined to the latter being more likely.

[Renaissance Man]

243. Take a Look at Harvard's Code of Conduct

https://handbook.college.harvard.edu/sites/projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/collegehandbook/files/harvard_college_student_handbook_2023-2024.pdf

"It is important to note here that speech not specifically directed against individuals in a harassing way may be protected by traditional safeguards of free speech, even though the comments may cause considerable discomfort or concern to others in the community. The College still takes such incidents seriously and will try, when appropriate, to mediate and help students involved to resolve the situations in an informal way."

If you look at the exchange between Dr. Claudine Gay and Elise Stefanik, the following was said:

Stefanik: Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules on bullying and harassment?

Gay: The rules around bullying and harassment are quite specific and if the context in which that language is used amounts to bullying and harassment, then we take, we take action against it.

So, whether or not you believe that those First Amendment considerations are taken into account is immaterial, seeing as though Harvard's own Code of Conduct (and I'm sure Penn and MIT's) considers First Amendment speech rights as paramount, even on their campuses.

[Nanjeanne]

61. If you are interested in hearing from Holocaust scholar Omer Barton and journalist and teacher, Peter

Beinart on this very topic, I suggest you listen to their interview here. https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/11/campus_antisemitism_and_resignations]

You might hear something you hadn’t thought of. It may not change your mind but it’s always good to hear from people with thoughtful ideas who know something you might not have thought of.

Here’s a chunk of the transcript:

PETER BEINART: This really isn’t about those individual presidents. It’s about the fact that given the extraordinary slaughter that’s happening in Gaza, there is a movement on college campuses and across America for a ceasefire and to end American complicity in that slaughter. And in response to that, the effort is now to try to limit the ability of people who want to protest U.S. policy and support Palestinian rights from being able to organize on college campuses. So the reason that you’re going after these presidents is to try to set a precedent and bring in people who will be much tougher on restricting the ability of students and faculty and others who want to organize politically against this war in Gaza. This is what this is about.

AMY GOODMAN: And if you can talk about exactly what happened, for people who missed it this past week? We just played an excerpt of the questioning by Stefanik. I mean, it went on for hours, the overall congressional testimony, but it came down to these points. And this is the critical point. She said, “It’s a yes-or-no question. Let me ask you this. You are president of Harvard, so I assume you’re familiar with the term 'intifada,' correct?” And President Gay says, “I’ve heard that term.” Congressmember Stefanik says, “You understand the use of the term 'intifada' in the context of the Israeli-Arab conflict is indeed a call for violent armed resistance against the state of Israel, including violence against civilians and the genocide of Jews.” This was the question they were asked. Elaborate on that, Peter Beinart, and talk about their responses.

PETER BEINART: Right. The premise of the question was just nonsense, right? The premise of the question is that “intifada,” which essentially means “uprising,” is the equivalent of an attempt at genocide at Jews. “Intifada” is actually a term that has been used even in uprising against Arab governments. Intifada can take nonviolent forms. The First Intifada had a lot of nonviolence. The Second Intifada, tragically, involved suicide bombings, which were horrifying and totally immoral. But these were uprisings in the context of oppression. It’s like saying a Ukrainian uprising against Russians that also killed Russian civilians would be an attempt at Russian genocide. It makes no sense.

But the problem was that these presidents, because they were not willing to contest the premise, because they were so lawyered up and defensive in their answers, that they basically accepted the premise and then were put in this ridiculous position where they didn’t — when they didn’t say it would be unacceptable for people to call for the genocide of Jews. Of course it would be unacceptable for people to call in mass protest for the genocide of Jews, but that’s not what was happening.

OMER BARTOV: Well, hi, and thank you for having me.

First of all, I want to agree with what Peter was saying. I think that this whole debate is so off-kilter, that the terms that are being used are being misused and are not being challenged by these three presidents, who should have been better prepared, not by their lawyers, but actually to have studied the issue itself and to have spoken about how they think about it. Using the term “intifada” is, of course, wrong, as Peter was saying. It means “uprising.” And uprising against oppression, one should support it.

Using the term “from the river to the sea” can mean all kinds of things. There are 7 million Jews living between the river and the sea, and 7 million Palestinians. Historically, speaking about “from the river to the sea,” or, in fact, both banks of the river in the traditional Zionist revisionist ideology, meant that the Jews should be in control of Eretz Yisrael, of the — sorry, of the land of Israel. I apologize.

AMY GOODMAN: Repeat —

OMER BARTOV: Sorry.

AMY GOODMAN: Repeat that point.

OMER BARTOV: Yeah, sorry. So, the term “from the river to the sea,” or Greater Israel, which means Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel, that land stretches between the Jordan —

AMY GOODMAN: We’re hearing you fine.

OMER BARTOV: Yeah. I’m sorry. I’m getting interruption here. Means the land between the Jordan and the sea, and, in fact, for some of the traditional revisionist movement, the right wing of the Zionist party, meant also across the river, even east of the river, into what is now known as Jordan, Transjordan at the time. So, to say that that is an antisemitic term or that it calls for the genocide of the Jews is nonsense. It can mean, if you look at it from the point of view of the Israeli right, that Jews have the right to rule over all the land of Israel. And many of the people who are now in Netanyahu’s government, the settler right-wing Jewish supremacists, such as Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, they would like to rule over all the land, and they would like the Palestinians to go away or to agree to be ruled over by the Jews. Now, it can also mean the opposite. If you look at what Hamas has been saying, it can mean exactly the opposite. Hamas indeed wants to create an Islamic Palestinian state where Jews would either have no room or would have to be living there in much smaller numbers and be tolerated.

And so, it does not mean what people say, unless you ask them what do they mean. And in that sense, putting these three presidents to answer these questions, to my mind, A, they should have said, ??Look, if you speak about genocide, no one should condone genocide, not of Jews and not of anyone else. If you’re speaking about intifada or about political slogans, you have to explain what they are, how we understand them.”

But beyond that, I have to say that this whole discussion seems to me to be the least important issue. What is most important is that Israel now is — has been conducting a war for weeks and weeks in which it has killed thousands and thousands of Palestinians. It has moved them to a very small part of the Gaza Strip. It has destroyed their property and has not even made a commitment to allow them to return. And it’s been doing that with enormous amounts of American-supplied munitions, not only rockets, but also tank shells, artillery shells and anti-rocket rockets. And that has to stop, and there has to be a political plan as to how to move to the next day, which is what Netanyahu is refusing to do. This is the main issue, not how we talk about politics on American campuses. That’s useful to talk about it, but it’s not the main emergency issue right now to my mind.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you two questions. You’re in Paris, France, now, but you’re generally in Cambridge, and you’re a professor at Brown University in Providence. What should Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard, do you feel, at this point, should she do? Hundreds of Harvard professors have rallied around her. And I also wanted to ask about Hisham Awartani, who is the Brown University student, a student at your school, who was shot with two other Palestinian students in Burlington, could well be paralyzed, a horrifying situation. I mean, I think there’s no question that antisemitism is increasing around the country, and that is very serious, and also Islamophobia.

OMER BARTOV: Yes. I mean, both are, of course, increasing, and we should do everything we can against them. And what happened with Hisham and the other two Palestinian students is horrible. In some ways, I would say, it reflects both the heated discussion that we have about Israel-Palestine and also the kind of gun culture and violence that we have in America, quite separately from what is happening in the Middle East.

As for resignations of presidents, I think this is — this would be terrible. I totally support those — I’m not a Harvard faculty. My wife is. But I totally support those people who have come out against her resignation. I think it would give completely the wrong signal, because the pressure is coming in large part from donors. That will create an impression that there is pressure from moneyed people, that there’s pressure from often people identified with Jewish interests, with right-wing Israelis, with the Israeli government, to control speech. And just as there has been, I must say — and that was reflected in the responses by these presidents — great sort of timidity in saying anything that is not correct speech, to correct it the other way, to try and control it in a way that does not allow criticism of Israel, presents criticism of Israel as antisemitism. And to do it by firing, for instance, at Harvard, the first African American president of Harvard would be an absolute disaster, and I would totally oppose it.

[lapfog_1]

82. calling for a cease fire

is not the same as calling for genocide of all Jews. or just calling for genocide of all Israelis.

So the first statement that this is attempt to control students organizing for protests of the war is simply nonsense.

They can protest all they want, the cannot engage in hate speech while doing so and expect no consequences like being expelled.

The qotcha question put to the Presidents was about "calling for genocide" and not "calling for a ceasefire".

If the University presidents wanted to they could have said... "calling for genocide is hate speech and anyone engaging in that is not welcome at my university". Intifada did not have to be entered into the answer.

[Renaissance Man]

89. Hate Speech is Permitted by the First Amendment

... they cannot engage in hate speech while doing so ...

Bradenburg v. Ohio says that they can, as long as the speech that is used is not used to incite or produce imminent lawless action and not likely to incite or produce such an action.

So, yes. They can engage in hate speech and call for the genocide of Jews and freely associate to call for the genocide of Jews, as long as that speech isn't followed with immediate harm inflicted on Jewish students at the university or Pennsylvania or Massachusetts doesn't start engaging in genocide against all of the Jewish citizens that reside in the state.

This is why all three of the presidents advised Stefanik that context was important. Now, because her question wasn't answered in the way that some wanted the question to be answered, folks are calling for their heads. Makes a lot of sense.

[Big Blue Marble]

76. Why the need to mock?

This is completely out of context of the culture of DU. This is a site for intelligent discussion
by caring people who may disagree, but support and respect each other. Sometimes,
especially during primaries, things do get heated. We avoid personal attacks. It
is for the best, if you keep your discourse at this level. Thanks.

[NoRethugFriends]

87. Are you now the moderator of all posts?

[Big Blue Marble]

102. DU has standards. I support them.

Do you?

[Sal_NV]

103. If the standards are violated,

then the post will be hidden, so if you think that standards a being violated, then utilize the alert button.

[Big Blue Marble]

104. Not always.

There is a standard here. We are a community; the alerts should the exception.
Respect should be the norm. For gods sake, this is not reddit.

[Sal_NV]

105. I would never alert,

someone could call me a worthless piece of dog dung and I still wouldn't alert, just not my style, I prefer a wide open debate.

[Big Blue Marble]

108. I would hope Sal that no one would call you that here.

If they did, someone else would alert for you.

[Sal_NV]

110. What someone calls me or thinks of me on DU

really has no bearing on me outside of DU, that's why I don't take anything said here about me personally, and really, no one else should either, plus, I'm just too damned old to really take exception to someone else's opinion of me personally.

[Big Blue Marble]

129. Could not agree with you more.

I feel the same.

[Nanjeanne]

111. OMG It's a ChanuChristmas Miracle! I agree with you!!! See? Common ground.

[Sal_NV]

112. +100.

[Sal_NV]

114. We probably agree on alot of other issues, just not this one. nt

[Nanjeanne]

115. Well now you are pushing it!!!!

[Sal_NV]

116. I will now proudly rec. your post.

[moondust]

33. "Hamas is killing its own people!"

Saw a clip of a furious Palestinian guy on teevee last night blaming Hamas for all this. I think it's the only Palestinian I've seen angrily calling them out like that in public. Perhaps doing so could be hazardous to one's health so it doesn't happen much.

[redqueen]

41. The only solution is a diplomatic one

but no one wants to hear that

[tritsofme]

54. Who would lead such negotiations for Palestinians today?

Hamas, the organization committed to eliminating Jews from the river to the sea?

Or Abbas, the unpopular “president” in year 18 of his 4 year term?

Israel no doubt needs better leadership as well, but that could actually happen within months.

Where is that path for Palestinians?

[Oneironaut]

66. You would think people would realize you can't bomb a problem out of existence by now.

And yet, here we are.

[redqueen]

98. Surely we must be learning.

Despite all signs to the contrary.

[TheKentuckian]

125. Yeah, everyone knows the real path is to send in death squads

and rape gangs, murder up a bunch of folks at a music festival most likely to be sympathetic to Palestine "creatively" and "opportunistically", rape, mutilate, take captives, and then flood social media with cries of foul play so that a bunch of witless fools line up in your savage corner and demand conditions that notonly secure your power but insistence that your actions be rewarded...for the children.

That is how you do it! The bombs are just to break ceasefires your witless minions will demand five seconds later.

[Bettie]

63. It really does seem that way

and it sickens me as well. They seem to believe that no Palestinian life matters at all.

[demmiblue]

122. It's downright ghoulish.

I will never see some of these people the same way again (and I'm not talking about the ones who are obviously trolling).

[Cha]

184. FUCKING BUTCHERS of HAMAS ARE the Fucking GHOULS.

[Nanjeanne]

64. Frightening isn't it? nt

[tritsofme]

70. This is a ridiculous accusation. However it is exactly what Hamas says it would do to Jews

If given the chance, from the river to the sea.

There cannot be peace while Hamas remains in power, they need to surrender.

[LexVegas]

75. He likely voted for Hamas. They are the elected government of Gaza. nt

[Nanjeanne]

79. Oh yes. Very likely. That was only 17 years ago and he did look old. That must be it.

[democrank]

93. I hope that never in my life

will I see photos of children bleeding and dying, starving and thirsty, homeless and hopeless, brutalized and dehumanized and say….’Oh well”

[demmiblue]

124. Same. n/t

[keithbvadu2]

97. A ceasefire is pro-Hamas... gives them time to restock and rearm. Promote peace.

Genocide? It goes both ways.

Trump's republicans were promoting the killing of more Jews.

[emulatorloo]

119. Senator Sanders nailed Hamas yesterday on how violate ceasefires:

I don’t know how you can have a permanent ceasefire with Hamas who has said before October 7 and after October 7 that they want to destroy Israel and they want a permanent war. I don’t know how you have a permanent ceasefire with an attitude like that.

[0rganism]

100. The war won't stop, the dying won't stop

Hundreds of thousands of human lives are about to end in a relatively small area. Large scale corpse removal and disposal will be both difficult and necessary to mitigate spread of disease.

Gaza is poised to become the world's largest outdoor crematorium. This is going to be televised, and will not reflect well on anyone.

[Autumn]

118. Some people seem to think that one must cheer the civilian deaths in Gaza or

one is anti-Israel. Anyone who is anti Netanyahu is okay in my books as is anyone who is against this horrible action.

[Nanjeanne]

131. What's odd is that I posted this doctor's plea because it brought me to tears this morning

when I heard it on Democracy Now. I thought it might inspire others to feel the compassion for Palestinians and Israelis suffering.

I figured those who didn’t feel compassion or even empathy would just ignore it. I never thought so many would feel the need to post what I’ve seen here since this really was a plea for compassion.

Guess I expect too much from people. Weird the never ending need to turn a plea for humaneness into something else.

[Autumn]

133. It's horrible. What is the point of trashing Jewish elders who want what is happening to the

people in Gaza to stop? That is disgraceful.

[Nanjeanne]

135. Yeah bringing out a lot of ugliness I preferred not seeing.

[lapfog_1]

134. some of us look beyond this week and this month.

I want the killing and deaths to stop. But I also realize that Hamas cannot be allowed to remain... much like ISIS before them and Al Quida before them and the Muslim Brotherhood before that.

So simply building a huge wall and fielding 100,000 troops with tanks and artillery and a hundred more Iron Dome systems around Gaza (turning it to even more of an open air prison) is not a solution.

Stopping the war and declaring "peace to all" and opening all the roads into Gaza to be open to tons and tons of aid, allowing free passage to anyone coming out of Gaza is also not a solution.

and every time I propose some other way than bombing the hell out of Gaza, it is met with comments such has "ridiculous" or "you can't be serious"

And yet, and yet... No one has any useful suggestion as to how to stop the fighting, stop the bombing, and still remove Hamas from any power in Gaza... make that ANY suggestion, useful or not.

when I press people for their suggestions, I get referred to a list of "deep thinkers" from the War and Peace report on Democracy Now! who spend a lot of time on "post war" organization... without any plan to stop the fighting now and to remove Hamas. Which is the problem RIGHT NOW. The assumption is that the war will somehow end of it's own accord after a period of months or years more. Gaza will NOT survive to see the post war long term peace plan. So something needs be done right now to end the bombing, allow needed clean water, food, and fuel, and now shelter... and yet takes Hamas out of the equation.

Also lost in the calls for peace are the events of Oct 7th... it's almost as if the far left in the USA wants to pretend that this event did not happen... because, I guess, it interferes with concept that "Israel bad, Palestinians innocent victims of occupation". Bibi is an asshole, he needs to go... but that isn't the issue right now.

[TheKentuckian]

144. Humanness just doesn't translate to impunity for

murderous, genocidal rapists dedicated to oppressive theocracy.

If that is what it takes for humanness then I'm unapologetically OUT and further despise any that are dedicated to such humanness.

That way lays death for western civilization.

[Nanjeanne]

146. I didn't realize the doctor, his colleagues, and all those children and thousands of innocents were

murderous genocidal rapists. Thanks for proving our point.

Peace to you. May you never suffer as others have. Sincerely.

[Oopsie Daisy]

209. Nobody thinks that. What a silly statement.

[Oopsie Daisy]

234. Which people "cheer the civilian deaths"? Can you be specific?

[Autumn]

235. Hope this helps. If not it must just be your specific personal experience.

Reply to Nanjeanne (Original post)
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 10:56 PM

Some people seem to think that one must cheer the civilian deaths in Gaza or
one is anti-Israel. Anyone who is anti Netanyahu is okay in my books as is anyone who is against this horrible action.

[Oopsie Daisy]

236. Who are these people? Where are they? Any evidence that they exist?

>> Hope this helps.
No, simply repeating yourself and quoting your own post is evasive and does not help.

>> If not it must just be your specific personal experience.
I want to know about your "specific personal experience" or other knowledge that you possess regarding who the people are who "cheer civilian deaths". Who are these people? Where are they? Any evidence that they actually exist?

[Autumn]

237. Again. If you haven't seen it it must just be YOUR specific personal experience and I can't help you.

My experience differs from yours.

[Oopsie Daisy]

238. Evasive and non-responsive answers reveal much *

* in my "specific personal experience." But, as I pointed out prior, on the face of it, this is dubious claim and regrettably (or thankfully) there has been no evidence provided that will confirm that such inflammatory statements are actually true.

>> and I can't help you.
I want you to know that your response has been more helpful than you probably realize.

[Autumn]

239. Whatever. You have a nice day.

[Oopsie Daisy]

240. It's EXACTLY as I say.

[Autumn]

241. Good for you!

[Oopsie Daisy]

242. Thanks, I know.

[kelly1mm]

150. The war can be over in less than 24 hours. All Hamas has to do is surrender, turn over ALL

the hostages , turn over those who participated and/or planned the 10/7 attacks and the rest of Hamas leadership goes into exile/retirement in Qatar or some other country that will have them.

Easy peasy ......

But they won't .......

[Nanjeanne]

170. Nothing is easy peasy.

[AloeVera]

172. If you know they wont...

Then why offer it as a solution?

[kelly1mm]

185. Because it is A solution that rational actors COULD take even if just to stop the needless

death and suffering of 'their' people. I put their in scare quotes as I don't think Hamas cares what happens to the Palestinians.

Question for you: I Hamas did as I propose, do you believe Israel would agree to an immediate cease fire?

[AloeVera]

210. Seems to me expecting people you consider terrorists to do the "right thing"

...and knowing they wont, serves no purpose other than a justification to continue the bombing and war. It's a classic deflection tactic when you dont want to do something.

Same thing goes for the conditions you've set:

All Hamas has to do is surrender, turn over ALL the hostages , turn over those who participated and/or planned the 10/7 attacks and the rest of Hamas leadership goes into exile/retirement in Qatar or some other country that will have them.

You are asking the entire leadership to turn themselves in. But since you already know they are irrational, selfish etc. you know they won't agree to these conditions.

So you've created the argument and the conditions for ongoing war and claim it isn't the fault of your side but those irrational, evil terrorists.

Look what you made me do.

[kelly1mm]

229. I would love for my solution to be done. I highly doubt it will. In the event that Hamas does

not surrender I am OK with Israel continuing its campaign to eradicate the Hamas terrorists (as defined not by me but by the US Government). Since, as you stated they are irrational and selfish they will continue to use human shields and thus lead to more Palestinian civilian deaths.

I support continuing the war until Hamas is eradicated as a meaningful threat to Israel and not one minute longer.

[AloeVera]

231. That is a very clear position. We can agree to disagree, then.

In that case it seems you are able to disregard or justify the indiscriminate bombings (in President Biden's own words, no less), the high civilian deaths and injuries, the attacks on hospitals and UN schools, the destruction of family homes, the intended starvation, mass suffering, and impending epidemics and diseases that may wipe out a large swath of the population. In other words, actions indicating collective punishment, intent to create suffering of civilians and an irresponsible or even cruel attitude towards the risk of creating a genocide.

I do not support such a war. I find it morally repugnant and outside the bounds of what is legal and acceptable even in war. There is no cause or justification for creating such mass suffering. I believe I am part of the world's majority in this.

[kelly1mm]

233. Yes. I realize that the actions of the IDF in Gaza

Will result in Palestinian civilian deaths due to 1) Hamas terrorists using civilians as human shields 2) Hamas refusing to surrender and 3) Israel’s need to eradicate Hamas as a credible threat to the state of Israel and its population.

We may in fact have to agree to disagree. I look back at the US actions in WWII with the fire bombing of Tokyo and Dresden and the subsequent loss of civilian lives but toward a greater good as an analogy as to what is happening in Gaza now.

Again, this could all be over if Hamas just releases the hostages, surrenders the planners/ perpetrators of 10/7 and exiled the rest to Qatar. That is my preferred option.

[Captain Stern]

173. Hamas is just as likely to do that..

....as they are to honor a cease-fire, and stop trying to kill Israeli civilians

[Cha]

183. Yeah, HAMAS Doesn't Give a SHIT About the Palestinians So

they won't do it.

HAMAS Wants WAR & Won't Stop Firing.. we know that.. But

That doesn't mean that it wouldn't put an end to the War.

TY for your post, Kelly.

[LonePirate]

177. Has this same doctor called for Hamas to release all prisoners and then surrender unconditionally?

[Nanjeanne]

179. I don't know. I haven't asked him and he seemed a bit busy.

[mvd]

180. I try not to wade into this much, except to say..

the whole thing is so heartbreaking for all sides. I don’t know of any solution right now but we must strive to come up with one.

[W_HAMILTON]

182. Your elected political leaders started a war.

If you want the war to end, demand they surrender and enter into immediate negotiations to end the war.

If your elected political leaders will not listen to these demands, elect new ones.

If your elected political leaders will not allow you to elect new political leaders, it sounds like you are living under an authoritarian regime and the only way you get out from under that is for you or someone else to oust them. Israel is working on that now.

I am sorry that innocent civilians are being put through this, but war is hell and this is not a war that Israel started.

We know how wars end.

If the political leaders in Gaza that started this war will not take the steps to end it, then it will continue on until the military objective is accomplished -- and that is removing those responsible for this war to begin with and making sure they cannot start similar wars in the future.

[obamanut2012]

211. The last election was over 17 years ago

[W_HAMILTON]

213. And?

Either (1) that is allowed for in Gaza's political system, which means Gazans support those leaders remaining in power without new elections in the intervening time or (2) that is not allowed in Gaza's political system, which means Gazans are essentially living under an authoritarian regime that they or someone else must oust from power. Once again, that is what Israel is working on now.

[AloeVera]

215. Israel is working on a lot of things right now.

I honestly don't believe self-determination and democratic reforms for Palestinians is one of them.

[W_HAMILTON]

218. They are working on eliminating Hamas...

... and making sure they can never again be in a position to start another war like this one.

You seem to think that Gazans do not support their elected Hamas political leaders and do not support the war that their Hamas political leaders started in early October. Since you seem to insinuate that they seem powerless to do anything about Hamas, well, Israel is doing it for them.

Once again, war is hell, but this war was not started by Israel. Authoritarian regimes -- which you and others seem to suggest that Hamas is -- do not relinquish power easily and they don't really give a damn about the innocent lives lost due to their reckless actions.

[AloeVera]

221. "Doing it for them" or...

Seems more like doing it TO them.

Your arguments sound reasonable of course. Who wouldn't agree to freeing people under the yoke of such a regime?

Did they have any say in the matter and was it made clear to them what price they would have to pay to be "freed"?

The stated purpose for this war was self-defense. Somehow that has morphed into freeing Palestinians as an added bonus. Along the way between the two points, Gaza has been destroyed physically and tens of thousands of people have died or been injured', nearly 2 million dispossessed of all their belongings and homes. All of them now face starvation, dispossession, and disease.

No one asked the Palestinians if they wanted to be "freed" and if they were willing to pay such a price. So far they have only been freed of their lives, family members, their homes and their right to live in peace.

Imposing democracy at the barrell of a gun is just more control and oppression imo. "Regime change" imposed in this manner didnt work out too well for the Iraqis either.

Nice attempt at revisionism and justification though.

[W_HAMILTON]

224. It's not about freeing them.

Once again, this is war -- a war the current political leadership in Gaza started.

The goal is to eliminate those that launched the attack that began this war and prevent them from doing so again.

A side benefit to the Gazan people is that in doing so, these apparently oppressive leaders that they elected and haven't voted out or risen up against in almost two decades will be ousted.

I say this somewhat facetiously, because I don't buy into this narrative that is being pushed that Gazans now suddenly don't support Hamas. They uplifted them to power to begin with -- even while knowing their history -- through elections. They have not demanded elections to remove them since and there has been no major uprising to protest their leadership and oust them from power.

[obamanut2012]

227. The last election was 17 years ago

[W_HAMILTON]

228. And?

When was the last major protest/uprising against the political leadership they elected 17 years ago to demand new elections and/or oust them from power?

[AloeVera]

214. No one under 35 voted for them. Of the rest, only 45% did.

Facts don't matter much if you're building a narrative to support the continued hell on earth for Palestinians.

[W_HAMILTON]

219. If Gazans don't support them, why are they still in power?

Are they an authoritarian regime?

And if Gazans are powerless to oust an authoritarian regime, how do you think they will ever be removed from power? Do authoritarian regimes just peacefully relinquish power in the narrative you've been building?

[AloeVera]

222. It's nice of Israel to free the Palestinians from under the Hamas yoke.

Very nice indeed.

Now if they would just let the Palestinians free themselves from under the yoke of Israel's occupation and maybe even agree to give them their own state, it would actually mean something more than a lot of hot air.

[W_HAMILTON]

225. Gazans have had almost two decades to do so.

Either they are incapable of freeing themselves from under the Hamas yoke or -- maybe, just maybe -- they support the actions of their elected political leaders.

It's of no consequence either way, because Israel has already stated they intend to eliminate Hamas. The time for the people of Gaza to remove the threat to Israel -- and, if you listen to some tell it, apparently themselves -- has long passed. Their elected political leaders started a war.

We know how wars usually end: by force or by surrender. If Gazans don't want to see this war ended through continued force, those same voices that are begging for an end to the war that their elected officials started, they should be calling on Hamas to immediately surrender and remove themselves from power and let new leaders negotiate with Israel for the war to end.