Israel Begins Pumping Seawater Into Hamas's Gaza Tunnels - Per Wall Street Journal

[Nanjeanne]

They are the only ones reporting it - although other news agencies are quoting it. Dear God I pray this is not true. I cannot imagine the horror the hostage families are feeling in Israel now.

Israel’s military has begun to pump seawater into Hamas’s vast complex of tunnels in Gaza, according to U.S. officials briefed on the Israeli military’s operations, part of an intensive effort to destroy the underground infrastructure that has underpinned the group’s operations.

The move to flood the tunnels with water from the Mediterranean, which is in an early stage, is just one of several techniques Israel is using to try to clear the tunnels and destroy them.

A spokesperson for the Israeli defense minister declined to comment, saying the tunnel operations are classified.

... more in article

Link to read free: https://archive.is/TRqMS#selection-703.0-717.113]

[Walleye]

1. No military expert here, but that sounds like one of the stupidest plans I've ever heard

[4139]

3. The slow rising water will drive Hamas out of the tunnels

… it will take tens of millions of gallons of water; won’t be a flash flood just slow rising water

[Walleye]

9. Maybe they've done it successfully before, but it sounds like messing with mother nature to me

[LeftInTX]

14. Tunnels also are also messing with mother nature.

But yes, the main risk is sea water intrusion in ground water.

But at this point the bombs are causing so much civilian destruction, while Hamas is simply able to hide in the tunnels.

[Lunabell]

2. Oh, good god!!!

Dead bodies floating out. Including innocent women and children. This is a war crime.

[MOMFUDSKI]

4. The whole thing has been an ongoing

war crime. It’s just getting uglier now. Think MAGA. They get power and you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.

[LeftInTX]

5. Better than huge bombs. Those tunnels aren't civilian shelters. They belong to Hamas

There may be hostages in them, but civilians aren't allowed.

They use the tunnels for warfare and arms dealing. The purpose of flooding the tunnels is to drive Hamas out of them.

[DavidDvorkin]

7. By "innocent women and children" I assume you mean the Israeli hostages

Hamas doesn't let Gaza civilians shelter in the tunnels.

[Lunabell]

60. Because innocent women and children, on both sides

are always the victims of war. Always.

And if you don't think civilians and Israeli hostages aren't in those tunnels, you are sadly mistaken. That's part of their war games.

[DavidDvorkin]

66. Hamas has declared that the tunnels are for their men, not for Gaza civilians

So the only innocent women and children in the tunnels would be the Israeli hostages.

[Lunabell]

67. Ok, so you believe them.

Not me.

[DavidDvorkin]

68. You think that Hamas lied and has let Gaza civilians into their tunnels?

Ooookaaaaay.

[Lunabell]

69. And they've been known to be so truthful.

So, there's that.

[DavidDvorkin]

70. But you actually think they would lie in that manner?

Pretending to be heartless while in reality being caring? Really?

[LeftInTX]

71. Israelis have sent robots in the tunnels

Often there is nothing visible. I doubt if there are civilians there. (Except for hostages)

The tunnels are used primarily moving and smuggling arms. There isn't enough room or air for civilians.


BTW: Bombs are killing innocent women and children.

[LeftInTX]

72. Israel is already bombing Gaza to bits and Hamas is still sending rockets into Israel numerous times a day.

Those tunnels aren't large enough for large groups, Also the tunnels have limited oxygen and require that Hamas bring in supplemental oxygen. Doubt they're going to waste oxygen on civilians.

[brooklynite]

10. Once again : waiting for an alternative strategy.

[LeftInTX]

11. Bombing Gaza to bits?

[Beastly Boy]

32. Why would the dead bodies of innocent civilians, and not militants, be floating out of Hamas military structures?

Unless Hamas uses the tunnels as a depository for dead bodies of civilians.

[Omnipresent]

55. They might decide to fuck with Israel...

And put hostages in the other ends of those tunnels, so they can say “Israel killed its own people”.

[Beastly Boy]

58. They may have already killed all the hostages

And only a fool would take Hamas' word for anything.

[Omnipresent]

62. Does it really matter what hamas says?

All we see on the news is Israel leveling city blocks where civilians lived and now we have tunnels be filled up with seawater.

[Rebl2]

38. I wonder

if they keep some of the kidnapped Americans and Israeli citizens in these tunnels.

[Maru Kitteh]

44. Sure, because Israel right? Guessing you didn't flinch or cry "war crime" when

Egypt flooded the tunnels. With salt water and sewage.

But, Israel. So . . . . .

[Arazi]

59. The singular outrage at Israeli actions

Despite other countries similar and far worse issues during conflict is absolutely antisemitic

[0rganism]

6. I hope there aren't any living hostages imprisoned in those tunnels...

That would be an extremely ugly consequence of an already-ugly operation.

[LeftInTX]

8. There likely is.

[Nanjeanne]

15. According the the hostages released and hostage families - there are.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Good.

[Calculating]

13. Good plan

Better than bombing everything to bits.

[markpkessinger]

45. Well, they've already done that, pretty much n/t

[tritsofme]

16. Good news. The tunnels must be destroyed.

[hlthe2b]

17. Salt water WILL get in the aquifer causing long term devastation. Ignoring the fact they could be

drowning hostages... But the future of any residents in Gaza does not seem to be on the table. I am not going to argue who is right and who is wrong or the limits of war. Those environs are harsh in the best of circumstances. That said, I don't see how making it uninhabitable in the future is going to be a win for anyone.

[Nanjeanne]

18. Either the future of Gaza or apparently the hostages. That's why the hostage families have been

demonstrating every night for Netanyahu to make any deal that brings them home. But it doesn’t seem to matter.

[NoRethugFriends]

28. Because that's not how you deal with terrorists

[TheKentuckian]

47. I understand their desperation and devastation

but giving into the demands just encourages more of the same and certainly providing 6,000 reinforcements is absurd.

Extending the war by that many operatives would likely leave about as many dead Israeli soldiers, hundreds more injured and maimed, and maybe 10,000 plus civilian Palestinians killed.

All of that with only guess work and going on two weeks old information that they are still alive and if they are we know the drill. Some and then the demands ratchet.

I would encourage memorial services to move forward, the hope for their safe return at this point is minuscule.
Far better odds of coming home from being lost at sea or in a plane crash in remote mountains in winter.

Those people can only be inconsolable but their loved ones are gone.

Dealing with these hyper regressives is why nature gave us the so called stone faced motherfuckers, otherwise the barbarians sack the city or make it less hostile than the wild to drive you out.

[LeftInTX]

19. Egypt flooded the tunnels with seawater in 2015

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/9/18/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels-used-for-smuggling

[hlthe2b]

20. Sounds extremely limited compared to the more than 800 tunnels reportedly there now.

A few smuggling tunnels compared to trying to target every tunnel present 8 years later?

Destroying the environment such that it is no longer habitable is unspeakable to me. We did it in Nagasaki and Hiroshima and taught the world what true devastation can come from no-holds-barred attacks. Did the world learn nothing? Even Russia has thus far stopped short of doing so with the Ukrainian nuclear power plants

Even if the damage discussed today is not radiation, to potentially destroy the groundwater supply-- perhaps for decades is horrific to me. And no, I am NOT saying IDF should not destroy the tunnels. I am saying they should not destroy the water supply in doing so for decades or more to come. And that is what saltwater contamination can do.

[claudette]

23. All those

tunnels found and all those members have fled? Why waste time doing this now instead of finding those who left the tunnels?

[TheKentuckian]

25. So they do not continue to be used and to drown

any operatives that may be using them now.

[CincyDem]

65. The tunnels are the key military asset of Hamas.

To all who have asked for Israel to focus on military targets…this is what it looks like.

[LeftInTX]

27. Egypt has done it numerous times

They have also used sewage. When the tunnels dried they flooded them again. Egypt then built an underground wall and a fish farm on the Egyptian side. However, Hamas was able to get through the wall. Plus it was in response to a terrorism attack, not smuggling.

Are you defending Egypt? Why has it cut off it's border with Gaza?

[hlthe2b]

42. Stop trying to incite. I was polite with you and accused you of nothing. I expect the same in return.

I do not condone the irreparable destruction of the environment and essential water systems. Sewage is bad in the tunnels if that is true, certainly, but recoverable. Saltwater in aquifers is not. Just ask the citizens of Louisiana who are facing saltwater back-up from climate change up the Mississippi River. That will be catastrophic if not reversed. Salting the aquifers may be as well.

[LeftInTX]

57. Israel is bombing the hell of out them and displacing everyone. Disease is rampant. Hospitals are closed.

People are dying left and right.

Most get their water trucked in as it is. They have tanks on top of their homes.

This is in the West Bank, where they don't have salt water.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/15/water-war-palestinians-demand-more-water-access-from-israel

I'm not saying it's right, but it's already going on.

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/flooding-hamas-tunnels-legal-assessment/#:~:text=Experts%20have%20also%20expressed%20concerns,source%20of%20groundwater%20in%20Gaza.

[Nanjeanne]

24. I didn't realize there were hostages being kept in Egypt in 2015. Who knew?

[dembotoz]

21. lets make gaza even more reliant on Israel for drinking water

[Lonestarblue]

53. I think Netanyahu's plan is to make Gaza uninhabitable.

He and his right-wing government have already declared that there will never be a two-state solution and that all Palestinians must leave their ancestral lands, either as corpses or as refugees. They really don’t care.

The ground water is already salty from overuse because too many people have been crammed into Gaza for years. But those millions of gallons of water will penetrate the ground water and make it u usable for anything, including growing any food, for decades. Deliberate destruction by Israel because as soon as the water starts rising the Hamas fighters will simply leave, and most likely leave then hostages behind to drown. Those tunnels are not dead ends because they are used to smuggle arms to Gaza.

[mathematic]

63. Will it? Hardly seems like enough water could be pumped to affect an aquifer

What are you basing this on? Salt water is not pure salt, it's not being dumped into the aquifer, and the aquifer is large compared to the size of the tunnels.

To understand where I'm coming from, people on the internet said Fukushima would kill fish off the west coast of the US due increasing the radiation of the ocean. This is obviously absurd and didn't happen.

So my question is about the actual numbers. You make some pretty extreme claims here about long term devastation, environmental destruction, and so on. Is this based on any actual scientific analysis? Why haven't you supported your claims with anything? Are they meant to be self-evident?

[hlthe2b]

64. Read! I am not the only person versed in environmental risks to say this.

Think as you will. Plenty of climate deniers abound so I am hardly surprised by the denial on this issue. And when the desire is to defend the indefensible, the denial is even greater... Thus my attempts to educate on the issue would be an unending exercise. I do not mean to be so insistent, but you need only read through this and other threads to see what a waste of my time it would be to provide papers most would not read and links to authoritative opinions on this matter that would merely be discounted as having been written by those who oppose Israel (even if published 10 years ago and concerning similar areas of the world, yet geographically and geopolitically unrelated).

[claudette]

22. Wondering if

this will cause structures to collapse causing more deaths of innocents?

[Mysterian]

26. Much better than sending in infantry with flamethrowers and grenades

These tunnels are enemy bunkers and can be destroyed to achieve military objectives.

[Lonestarblue]

29. The water in Gaza already has a large salt content. Flooding the tunnels will make what is left

of the groundwater undrinkable, making Gaza uninhabitable. I suspect that is the plan. Netanyahu and his right-wing ministers have already said that they want every Palestinians to be forced out of all of Palestine. They want them to be dead or refugees in other countries. They’re succeeding because the Palestinians they aren’t killing with bombs will die of diseases.

[Mountainguy]

30. A lot of replies

Sounds like they are very mad that Hamas isn't going to have their hidey holes.

[Nanjeanne]

31. Can't speak to "them" but I'm concerned more about the hostages in the tunnels. As are the hostage families.

[Mountainguy]

33. The hostages, if they are alive

are the most valuable thing Hamas still has. They'll most likely move them as the water flows in. It'll take days to fill those tunnels.

[Beastly Boy]

34. The lives of the hostages are in the hands of Hamas, no matter where or in what condition they are.

Flooding the tunnels does not endanger the lives of the hostages any more than not flooding the tunnels.

Probably less so.

[Nanjeanne]

35. Well the hostage families believe differently which is why they and many others are demonstrating

every night.

But everyone deserves an opinion. I don’t have answers. Only my compassion for what the families are asking Israel to do.

[obamanut2012]

37. I don't see one reply that says that, or close to that

Link?

[Mountainguy]

46. Look through the thread

Calling flooding these tunnels an environmental catastrophe or a war crime, when it's been done several times in the past by Israel and other nations.

The only way those types of over the top comments make sense is if someone either has an agenda against Israel or sympathizes with Hamas.

[hlthe2b]

49. No. They are NOT and YOU know that.

It is Netanyahu and his tactics (including FUNDING HAMAS and ignoring the horrific slaughter and attacks BY HAMAS for 8 hours) that you should be questioning. Your attacks on Israeli-supportive yet tactic-questioning fellow DUers are not just invalid but open to question as to why.

[Mountainguy]

50. Ah, so its israels fault

Pretty much making my point with that reply.

[hlthe2b]

51. I say nothing Pres. Biden & administration AND the families of the abducted Israelis are not saying....

when they likewise question the tactics and policies of the Israeli GOVERNMENT--Netanyahu and Likudists--not the Israeli people. So what exactly will you accuse THEM of?

[Mountainguy]

52. Biden said

That the Israeli government is funding hamas and that they let Oct 7th happen for their own sinister reasons?

I dont think he did.

[obamanut2012]

56. Okay, so you have no proof like I thought

Thanks for confirming!

[WarGamer]

36. I guess that no one thought that sections of tunnels are separated by water tight doors?

And they've been talking about this for months... dontcha think the terrorists have already moved out of the tunnels, with their weapons?

[Nanjeanne]

39. Hard to know. In interviews with hostage families that were released they say some of their loved ones

were kept in tunnels. But yes, they may have taken them out. Of course some interviews I saw and read said that many were kept in buildings as well and were terrified by the Israeli bombings. I posted an article from Haaretz a while ago where they talked about being frightened of being killed by Israeli bombings. I remember one woman whose husband was still captive talking about the idea of the seawater and saying something to the effect of Israel prioritizing politics over hostages.

The thread is still here somewhere. I think I posted it a week ago.

[WarGamer]

40. I wouldn't be surprised if hostages are still in tunnels...

And soldiers and weapons have been moved out.

It suits Hamas to blame Israel for drowning them.

This whole thing is rotten... hateful bastards should have went fishing 10/7... or slept in.

[LeftInTX]

41. If they have moved out, they're much easier to catch

[WarGamer]

43. No not really.

from internet land:

In its way, the fighting in Stalingrad was even more terrifying than the impersonal slaughter at Verdun. The close-quarter combat in ruined buildings, bunkers, cellars and sewers was soon dubbed ‘Rattenkrieg’ by German soldiers. It possessed a savage intimacy which appalled their generals, who felt that they were rapidly losing control over events. ‘The enemy is invisible,’ wrote General Strecker to a friend. ‘Ambushes out of basements, wall remnants, hidden bunkers and factory ruins produce heavy casualties among our troops.’

German commanders openly admitted the Russian expertise at camouflage, but few acknowledged that it was their aircraft which had produced the ideal conditions for the defenders. ‘Not a house is left standing,’ a lieutenant wrote home, ‘there is only a burnt-out wasteland, a wilderness of rubble and ruins which is well-nigh impassable.’ At the southern end of the city, the Luftwaffe liaison officer with 24th Panzer Division wrote: ‘The defenders have concentrated and fortified themselves in the sections of the town facing our attacks. In parkland, there are tanks or just tank turrets dug-in, and anti-tank guns concealed in the cellars make it very hard going for our advancing tanks.’

[TheKentuckian]

48. Limits the field and much of the ability to move at least.

Especially anything of size or quantity is much more exposed.

[Turbineguy]

61. 6 inches to 1 foot of water will likely render the tunnels unusable.