This is only my second post about the war between Israel and Hamas

[Stinky The Clown]

Last edited Thu Dec 14, 2023, 08:26 PM - Edit history (1)

I have worked hard to stay out of the discussions. I am posting because I am angry. Not at Jews. Not at Israelis. Not at Palestinians.

I am, as I have been, angry at Hamas and condemn them unequivocally. But now I am angry at Netanyahu and the right wingers in his government who have clearly gone way too far in their indiscriminate destruction of Gaza. I am angry that, according to mainstream reporting, have their population are, literally, staring. half their population is literally starving.

This

Has

To

STOP.


edited to fix the typos with the strikethroughs

[Walleye]

1. Killing journalists is going way too far.Attacking journalist is another way of saying there's something to hide

[WarGamer]

2. yes... K&R

[claudette]

3. 👍

Agree

[Think. Again.]

4. Thank you for posting this.

[cachukis]

5. Succinct.

[Big Blue Marble]

6. You are absolutely correct.

This maiming and killing has to stop. The total casualties in Gaza are reaching 70,000. Nearly
50% of the casualties are children; than means 25,000 dead or injured innocence children.

Nearly every child in Gaza has lost their home, their pets, their precious belongings;
some have lost their entire families and their limbs. Every child and adult living through
this nightmare has seen their lives changed forever through trauma and terror.

This has to stop.

[TexasDem69]

7. Agreed

Hamas should release all hostages and surrender everyone who participated in or planned the attacks. In exchange, Israel should cease military activity in Gaza. That seems like a reasonable compromise, no?

[Ms. Toad]

8. Not of the former is a precondition to the latter. n/t

[TexasDem69]

10. Why shouldn't it be a precondition?

You think Hamas should keep the hostages and that Hamas’ murderers should remain free?

If we liberals are going to demand Israel cease military operations then we should universally support the release of hostages and surrender of every single coward who participated in or planned October 7. That is just and fair.

[revmclaren]

16. Absolutely...

No hostages, no ceasefire...period.

[Ms. Toad]

19. Israel has an obligation to minimize civillian deaths.

The current civillian death rate in Gaza is approximately 4 times the civillian death rate in WW II. That international legal and moral obligation to minimize civillian injuries and deaths is not preconditioned on the actions of any third party. Because we are providing financial and military support to Israel, we have an obligation to demand they act consistently with those obligations.

What I said is that our demand (on the party in this conflict which we are financially and militarily supporting) should not be preconditioned on the behavior of a party over which we have no control (and which we are not providing with weapons and money).

To suggest that demanding a war we are supporting be waged consistent with international legal and moral obligations means I believe Hamas should keep the hostages and those who planned and carried out the Dec 7 attack remain free is insulting.

[Arazi]

22. There are many current conflicts we're arming

Like KSA in Yemen - virtually all of their weapons come from the US.

The actual genocide and current starvation rates in Yemen however aren’t provoking any outraged OPs here on DU or any street anywhere in the world. KSA is committing monstrous war crimes there…

… but crickets about that

Just Israel gets the opprobrium 🤔

[Big Blue Marble]

32. Of course, I knew what you were going to say before I read your post.

You do repeat that solution over and over and I would be pleased with it too.

But it is very doubtful. I join with the vast majority of the people of this world.
We need a cease fire in order to save millions of people from more suffering
and a high risk of death. This is a fast-moving catastrophe with more innocent
people injured and dying everywhere.

Israel can continue to fight Hamas on the ground, but stop the bombing a
and allow much more aid to be delivered and distributed in Gaza Strip.
This is the direction the Biden Administration is moving.. Hopefully,
you are too.

[Arazi]

9. 30 million dying of starvation in Sudan right now

Not a soul protesting that… even as it’s been an ongoing conflict for much MUCH longer. Millions have already died of starvation and millions slaughtered in a true genocide.

But only Israel singled out for scathing global criticism - wonder why 🙄

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/war-pushes-sudan-towards-catastrophic-famine-like-conditions-2023-12-14/

[revmclaren]

11. If it's not covered by commondreams or al Jazeera

I guess its not really important news by some individuals and groups.


IMHO of course.

[Nanjeanne]

12. Actually it is covered by AlJazeera. Much more than by MSNBC or CNN. Most non USA networks

cover much more international news.

[revmclaren]

13. Wow, i checked out their story on the suffering

in Sudan and its appalling.

Why hasn't the link from al Jazeera been shared here since thousands dying there daily is huge news. Waaay beyond what's happening in Gaza but relegated to not as important by some on the internet.

Snip..
The war between the Sudanese army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces has fractured the country and put at least 24 million people – more than half the population – in dire need of assistance, according to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA).

Snip...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/sudan-facing-humanitarian-crisis-as-relief-funding-dwindles

[Nanjeanne]

15. Post it. You can you know.

[revmclaren]

18. Of corse i can, and will.

Just 'odd' that with so many posting news from Al Jazeera that this story was missed.

[David__77]

33. The argument is that ANY criticism of Israel is "singling it out" and wrong. Of course it's nonsense.

[Nanjeanne]

36. Believe me I know exactly what they are implying.

[Mossfern]

41. I don't know about that

I have criticized Israel's government several times - especially Netanyahu and Likud and settlements in the West Bank.

[Nanjeanne]

42. I wasn't talking about your post.

[Mossfern]

44. I was responding to Post #33

David_77 - not to you.
Sometimes things can get a bit confusing around here.

[David__77]

46. I wasn't referring to anything you posted.

Just to clarify. Rather, I was referring to the "singling out" argument.

[Nanjeanne]

47. ...

[Mossfern]

48. ...

as I said....
a little confusion, a little chuckle can be relieving

We're all under lots of stress these days.

[Nanjeanne]

49. Yes that's why I posted the laugh.

[Arazi]

17. It's more an observation that armchair critics are very selective

In their outrage.

Only Israel gets outraged OPs over and over and over…

Only Israel gets monster protests…

Only Jews are singled out as perpetrating “genocide” (it’s not a genocide)…

Only Israel gets 153 UN votes for a ceasefire even as Hamas has vowed to never stop until all Jews are eradicated …

Starving Palestinians receive front page coverage, thousands of breathless articles cataloguing that war’s ravages caused by Israel while other wars get a pass. Nary a word about the millions of Muslim Yemenis slaughtered to extinction, currently starving caused by Saudi Arabia for example.

Nope, here’s another OP dedicated to slamming Israel…

[revmclaren]

21. I'm losing count.

[Abolishinist]

31. Spot on, and thanks for keeping it honest.

[Nanjeanne]

37. We all understand your shameful inference. But here's a thought. I'm a Jew. I have family in Israel.

I have connections to hostage families. My concern right now is what is happening. I don’t have to justify why I post on a particular subject here. And doesn’t make it true that because I care about Palestinians I therefore don’t care about any other suffering in any other country including our own. If I - or anyone else chooses to,post about something - that does not mean that I or anyone else don’t care, work, donate to other causes.

Let’s put it another way. My husband has multiple myeloma. I have done a lot of work for that cause. I do a little for brain cancer as I lost a friend to that. Also some work for breast cancer as I have had that. But less than multiple myeloma. Doesn’t mean I don’t care about pancreatic cancer. Or diabetes. It’s just what I do. It’s not my job to give to the causes that you choose for me.

So post about what YOU want. You don’t have any right to regulate people’s compassion. And the OP wrote about compassion. Their piece was about their compassion. Sorry its wasn’t the compassion YOU wanted. But it was not antisemitic as you implied. And selectivity is what happens on a message board. So either go to a forum that writes about what you want them to. Or write about your concerns. Your snide inference about antisemitism was disgraceful and unwarranted.

[jcgoldie]

20. but whatabout...

.

[Arazi]

25. This isn't "whataboutism"

But feel free to try to deflect…

Why do you think every other conflict for which the US is providing weapons, and where far worse atrocities, starvation, war crimes, and actual genocides are occurring, is ignored?

Why is Israel singled out?

There’s a huge psy-op working hard with this conflict to split Dems and brand Joe Biden as “Genocide Joe”. Hamas has been trained and aimed at Israel by bigger, dark actors who are playing an even bigger game to split Bidens 2020 coalition.

And it’s working.

There’s specific reasons those other conflicts haven’t been catapulted into every media outlet like the (decades old) I/P conflict.

It behooves all of us to ask why

(Hint: Putin, Iran, MBS etc are huge anti-semites and determined to bring back Trump)

[Ms. Toad]

23. The US is providing significant humanitarian aid to Sudan

$840 million this fiscal year.

In contrast, the US has provided $38 billion in military aid, much of it supporting Netanyahu's campaign of destruction in Gaza.

Providing humanitarian aid versus providing military assistance to carry out a campaign of destruction which has killed civillians at a rate 4x the civillian death rate in WW II. Hmm. The answer is pretty obvious to me - I favor sending humanitarian aid and I opposed sending military aid. And, especially when our aid is used to kill civillians at the rate they are currently being killed in Gaza I have a moral obligation to speak out and demand my money not be used to destroy civillian lives.

[Arazi]

26. I don't recall your outrage over US arming groups in Ethiopia

Congo, Azerbaijan, KSA, or yes, even groups in Sudan.

Maybe I missed them?

[Ms. Toad]

35. Or perhaps there wasn't a significant portion of DU repeatedly and daily defending

our actions in those conflicts. Had there been, I likely would have responded - as I finally am on this issue.

I'm not obligated to post on DU every time I believe our government makes a misstep. I have been speaking out, and lobbying Congress, for 5 decades on our military engagement around the world. Probably a tad more effective than contributing to an echo chamber here. And on this matter, DU isn't an echo chamber so there is some usefulness in speaking up on this issue here.

[SlimJimmy]

30. Dresden

It is thought that some 25,000–35,000 civilians died in Dresden in the air attacks, though some estimates are as high as 250,000, given the influx of undocumented refugees that had fled to Dresden from the Eastern Front. Most of the victims were women, children, and the elderly.
https://www.britannica.com/event/bombing-of-Dresden

I think your math might be off by a huge margin. And this number doesn't include the civilian deaths in Japan.

The civilian to combatant fatality ratio in World War II lies somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1, or from 60% to 67%.

Also see this ...

which has killed civillians at a rate 4x the civillian death rate in WW II. Hmm.

Amongst those killed in that period, 69% of Israelis were civilians, while the report estimated 59% of Palestinian casualties were civilians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

[Ms. Toad]

34. I did the math in response the claim that the death rate was higher in WWII posted here a couple of days ago.

Feel free to go find it - it included the raw numbers.

[SlimJimmy]

40. I just proved them wrong.

At best the numbers are equal. But clearly, a hell of lot more civilians died in WW2, than in Gaza. Hell, one hell of a lot more civilians died in Dresden (upwards of 250,000) than in all the wars in Gaza. Plus the fact that the lying Hamas run Ministry of Health always inflates the numbers and coflates terrorists with women and children.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. The Gaza Government

Conveniently forgets to say how many were their *soldiers* ie Hamas.

They also don't mention how many of the Hamas killed were women.

Women can be terrorists too.

[SlimJimmy]

50. Agreed.

The, Hamas controlled, Ministry of Health gives notoriously inflated numbers quite often.

[brush]

14. Agreed. Netanyahu/Likud allowed suitcases of cash from Qutar to flown...

to Hamas in Gaza as a way of controlling Hamas, they thought. We know now what Hamas used the money for.

Neither Bibi nor Hamas wants a two-state solution.

The sooner both are out of power the better.

[onecaliberal]

24. 💯

All of it.

[OAITW r.2.0]

27. You speak for me. Thanks for Posting.

[leftstreet]

28. DURec

[SlimJimmy]

29. Context is always important

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.

The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiraling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month.

Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-on-israel-support-for-hamas-rises/ar-AA1lukm6

The Hamas controlled Ministry of Health has repeatedly lied about the numbers from day one. Anything they report must be taken with a huge grain of salt. And yes, this needs to stop. The overwhelming support for Hamas by the Palestinians needs to stop. Of course, very little of this is reported by the MSM.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. Whoa

So 3 in 4 thought raping, murdering, and kidnapping was a good idea - and now they are crying foul?

What did they think was going to happen?

[CincyDem]

52. I'm sure this fact will do nothing to temper the "Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian people" canard. n/t

[Nanjeanne]

38. I posted in reply to one particular post but I'm adding to this thread because I just feel it's important.

here's a thought. I'm a Jew. I have family in Israel. I have connections to hostage families. My concern right now is what is happening. I don’t have to justify why I or anyone else posts on a particular subject here. And doesn’t make it true that because I or anyone else cares about Palestinians we therefore don’t care about any other suffering in any other country including our own. If I - or anyone else chooses to post about something - that does not mean that I or anyone else don’t care, work, donate to other causes.

Let’s put it another way. My husband has multiple myeloma. I have done a lot of work for that cause. I do a little for brain cancer as I lost a friend to that. Also some work for breast cancer as I have had that. But less than multiple myeloma. Doesn’t mean I don’t care about pancreatic cancer. Or diabetes. It’s just what I do. It’s not my job to give to the causes that someone else chooses for me.

So post about what YOU want. You don’t have any right to regulate people’s compassion. And the OP wrote about compassion. Their piece was about their compassion. Sorry its wasn’t the compassion YOU wanted. But it was not antisemitic as was implied. And selectivity is what happens on a message board. So either go to a forum that writes about what you want them to. Or write about your concerns. The snide inferences about antisemitism are disgraceful and unwarranted.

[marble falls]

51. My sentiments exactly.