Israeli military accidentally shoots and kills 3 Israelis held hostage in Gaza

[Donkees]

From CNN's Tamar Michaelis

The Israel Defense Forces says that three Israeli hostages in Gaza were mistakenly identified as a threat and shot dead.

“During combat in Shejaiya (in northern Gaza), the IDF mistakenly identified three Israeli hostages as a threat. As a result, the troops fired toward them and they were killed,” IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said at a briefing Friday.

“During searches and checks in the area in which the incident occurred, a suspicion arose over the identities of the deceased. Their bodies were transferred to Israeli territory for examination, after which it was confirmed that they were three Israeli hostages,” he added.

The hostages have been identified as:

Yotam Haim, who was kidnapped from Kibbutz Kfar Aza
Samer Talalka, who was kidnapped from Kibbutz Nir Am
Another male hostage whose family requested that his name not be published

The IDF began reviewing the incident immediately, Hagari said.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-15-23/index.html

[underpants]

1. Damn. That sucks. Way to go IDF.

[Happy Hoosier]

2. That's a MAJOR fuck-up.....

... NutandYahoo's career is over.

At least if there is any justice in the world....

[PufPuf23]

3. Can anyone seriously not believe that the IDF has not dropped bombs on hostages already?

That is one of the concerns of the hostage families protesting Netanyahu.

[dutch777]

4. Hmmm...as hostages they probably didn't have guns. So shoot anything that moves first, ask questions later is policy.

Might help explain 18,000 or so dead Palestinians and counting. And I am sure many hostages have died in the bombings whose bodies won't even be found. I realize Hamas started this and if it were the US, we would certainly also respond with force. I just wish I saw a way out of this that doesn't end up with a horrible situation only getting worse perpetually. And Israel doesn't even want us saying "two state solution" out loud. Tragic.

[riversedge]

16. Any investigation of this sort needs to be headed by an impartial team-like a

UN team or something along those lines

[Hassin Bin Sober]

6. I'm sure they were armed and posing a threat? Yes?

The IDF wouldn’t shoot unarmed civilians, no?

[FHRRK]

7. Well that is horrible

nothing more to be said.

[Demovictory9]

26. Plus 1

[FHRRK]

27. Unfortunately we seem to be alone on this line of thought

Oh well, discussion forum, people are going to post opinions.

[Donkees]

8. The three were trying to escape their captors but were misidentified by IDF soldiers as terrorists

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unaccounted-for-heavy-metal-drummer-yotam-haim-from-kfar-aza/

Yotam Haim, a drummer for heavy metal band Persephore, was abducted October 7, when Hamas terrorists attacked his kibbutz of Kfar Aza.

His death was announced on December 15 by the IDF Spokesman, who said he was killed along with two other hostages in Shejaiya, northern Gaza. The three were trying to escape their captors but were misidentified by IDF soldiers as terrorists and killed.

[Nanjeanne]

9. OMG this is so tragic.

[Autumn]

10. Did the IDF manage to kill any of the Hamas soldiers that the three hostages were escaping from?

[Beastly Boy]

11. Tragic. And I am disgusted by the responses that bame Israel for their deaths.

The hostages didn't just get lost in Gaza. They were not kidnapped and imprisoned by IDF. They were not targeted by IDF

The hostages were placed in harm's way by Hamas, for gawd's sake! Just like Gaza civilians.

And if it turns out that they were forced to wear Hamas insignia as they fled, add one more war crime to Hamas' long list.

[Coventina]

13. Disgusting, but oh so predictable.

[PufPuf23]

18. When "stupid" bombs are dropped in Gaza, almost impossible not to have

killed hostages kidnapped by Hamas.

This is a reason why hostage families have been protesting.

IDF could have chosen different tactics that killed less innocent people.

[Beastly Boy]

20. The hostages were killed during a firefight between IDF and hamas militants!

Are there no limits to this obsession to blame Israel no matter what?

[Nixie]

36. Exactly. These 3 hostages seem to be getting all the outrage

and pity. Not hard to figure out why.

[sarisataka]

19. I had an expectation what direction this would head

and unfortunately I was correct

[Sympthsical]

24. I've had this image this past week

Of a morning phone alarm being the Google alert sound whenever a new anti-Israel article is posted on the Internet somewhere.

Similarly, I've also apparently inadvertently subscribed to Al Jazeera? Like having self-appointed paper boys flinging them at your house. Mix that in with the Guardian's almost Pavlovian response to all things Jewish, and the neighborhood's getting weird.

[Celerity]

25. seriously... wtf

Some people on DU seem to be really happy About this tragedy.

shameful, false, and disgusting comment/smear attempt

[Emile]

28. WTF WOW!

[JI7]

39. Yes, something like this reveals how deep is the hatred

in almost any other case people would acknowledge how fucked up the situation was with Hamas using hostages as human shields while attacking Israeli soldiers.

[Voltaire2]

31. The IDF admitted responsibility.

So you are disgusted by the IDF?

[Beastly Boy]

33. No. Because, like any rational person, I can tell the difference between accepting blame and admitting responsibility.

In fact, this makes IDF more worthy of praise, not less.

Contrast the IDF response with this ugly comment:

&t=6s

[Voltaire2]

43. Interesting. Could you describe the difference

between "accepting blame and admitting responsibility"?

[Beastly Boy]

44. By all means.

Accepting blame denotes willful complicity in wrongful conduct.

Admitting responsibility denotes not living up to expectations.

You can see how one is not like the other, can't you?

[Voltaire2]

45. Ok I think I understand what you mean.

To be clear: you think the IDF is responsible for the deaths of the hostages, but should not be blamed.

I’m fine with that.

[Beastly Boy]

46. Almost there.

I think IDF is responsible for inadvertently killing the hostages, but they are free of blame.

[Voltaire2]

49. Why was it inadvertent?

From the accounts I’ve read the IDF soldiers intended to kill these people, they just didn’t know they were hostages. If you intentionally kill a person but discover it was the wrong person, ‘inadvertent’ - unintentional- seems to not apply.

[Beastly Boy]

50. Curious, you are amswering your own questions. Someone might mistake it for self-deprecation

Your answer: "they just didn’t know they were hostages.".

IDF is fighting a war against the enemy that not only disregards the rules of war, it takes advantage of them. For instance, Hamas routinely uses militants dressed in civilian clothes and waiving white flags to ambush IDF soldiers. They use hospitals to harbor militants. They use mosques to store munitions. They use school grounds as missile launching pads. They use civilians as human shields. And, oh yeah, they take hostages.

Meaning of inadvertent in English
inadvertent
adjective
us

not intentional:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/inadvertent

Don't tell me you think that IDF intended to kill the hostages.

[Voltaire2]

51. Not inadvertent.

They were attempting to surrender. They had rigged up a white flag. The shooting was not inadvertent. The soldiers aimed at these people and deliberately killed them.

Here’s an example of an inadvertent shooting. Dick Cheney accidentally shot his friend Harry Whittington while they were hunting. Cheney had no intention to shoot Whittington, he was trying to shoot some birds and Harry’s face got in the way. That’s an inadvertent shooting.

[Beastly Boy]

54. Now, you are just trying to split hairs, and failing at it.

Again, you came up with an example that proves your reasoning faulty.

In your example, were Dick Cheney to target George Bush and accidentally hit Harry Wittington, would Cheney's intention to hit Wittington change in any way? You are suggesting it would. I don't see how you can reasonably come to this conclusion.

Is pulling the trigger in question here , or is it hitting the intended target?

And I am not going to run in circles explaining again and again why attempting to surrender and rigging up a white flag, both being rules of war, does not invalidate lethal responses when an enemy routinely disregards the rules if war.

[Voltaire2]

59. lol. That hair was already split.

[Beastly Boy]

65. And deflecting from your fallacies.

Forgot to mention that one.

[JI7]

55. Cheney was not being shot at. The IDF was being targeted and fired upon by the terrorists

who committed the attacks on Oct 7 during this.

[Voltaire2]

58. These three unfortunate people were waving a white flag and had removed their shirts

in order to show that they were not suicide bombers. They were not shooting at anyone. They were not armed. They were deliberately targeted and shot, apparently because they *could* have been hamas, not because they posed any actual threat to anyone.

Describing the shooting as inadvertent is ridiculous,

[David__77]

56. What's interesting is the there are no apologies for all killings of other non-combatants.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Like you, I am disgusted with some of the responses, but not at all surprised.

Some things never change.

[moniss]

12. This is not the first time

the IDF has been in "shoot whatever moves" screw-ups.

[moniss]

14. So maybe if Jerusalem hadn't been so eager to resume killing

and had agreed to extend the ceasefire and hostage/prisoner exchanges these 3 people may not have died but may in fact have been back home by now. But we won't know because the desire to resume killing won the day.

[sarisataka]

17. Are you aware it was Hamas that chose to not extend the ceasefire

By refusing to release any more hostages and firing a barrage of rockets at Israel an hour before the scheduled expiration of the ceasefire?

Or are we now living in a world where facts are what we say they are?

[Mountainguy]

30. Blame the Jews

No matter what I guess.

Blame them for breaking the ceasefire that Hamas broke.
Blame them for breaking the second ceasefire that Hamas broke.
Blame them for the festival massacre that Hamas did.
Blame them for dead hostages that Hamas took.
Blame them for Hamas.

I've seen all of that in the last day on this board.

[TiberiusB]

42. blame "the Jews"?

I've seen anger at the IDf, the Israeli government, and Netanyahu.

Who is blaming "the Jews"? Can you provide some examples? I know there are people doing that elsewhere, but I am referring to here, on DU.

[moniss]

34. According to Jerusalem

and the negotiators in Qatar it was a decision by Jerusalem to not extend and to cut off negotiations. The existing scenario could have been extended but as I said the desire to resume killing was stronger. There was also indication that some number of the remaining hostages were not being directly held in the control of Hamas but rather by some of these smaller terrorist groups and so it was not as simple a negotiation as it might sound.

[sarisataka]

38. IIRC that announcement came after

the reports Hamas was refusing to respond.

I assume your comment about the "desire to resume killing was stronger" refers to Hamas resuming hostilities before the expiration of the ceasefire.

[moniss]

41. If you actually knew my position you would know that

I have roundly condemned and expressed disgust at everyone involved here for actions by all parties involved. I don't pick one side or the other in more atrocities or fewer. As I have stated numerous times there is no actor in the mess on any side or their supporters, even if we go back to Balfour, who has been honest in their dealings and refrained from killing and brutality. You are welcome to look up the horrible number of Israelis stabbed in knife attacks on the streets during so called "ceasefires" and also the number of dead Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank every single year, year after year during ceasefires as well as any other time. This I have stated before also. Violence of varying degrees during ceasefires is common around the world. People wanted to get back to the killing otherwise they would have not come out and said there would be no further discussions about a ceasefire.

[LeftInTX]

47. Hamas started shooting rockets one hour before the ceasefire ended

Also, instead of hostages, they decided they were gonna start sending dead bodies. They short changed Israel on the last day by two hostages.

[moniss]

48. The ending of talking and resumption of killing has

not brought about a single hostage release. As I said there is almost never a ceasefire anywhere, particularly between these parties, that is without sporadic fire and deaths. There has been no year since Balfour at least that has not had dead Palestinians and dead Israelis no matter whether there was a supposed ceasefire. Whether they were two hostages short on the last day is no reason to throw the whole thing away. As I stated many times it is doubtful that Hamas is in full possession and control of all of the hostages and that some of them are likely to be with these smaller terrorist groups. So the negotiation in Qatar is not just with Hamas but it likely involves Hamas having to turn and negotiate also with these smaller groups. One or more of these groups may well have backed out of a promise made. The effort should have been to find out why and keep trying while extending the pause in the bombing etc. As an example did the group demand that Hamas give them certain things like amounts of money and weapons and then when it came time for the exchange did they up the ante beyond what Hamas could deliver. Remember that Qatar and "others'' behind the scenes are likely trying to facilitate the supply of what is being asked for but it may not be as simple as changing your order at the restaurant. If they asked for more lethal weapons for instance that may be something that is not going to be allowed so then you have to try to find something else that will make the negotiation move along. It also has to be remembered that they all may not be in direct, instantaneous communication with each other and all of what I have said may well be a complicated back and forth taking more time than simple phone calls.

If they want the best chance to get the hostages back alive then negotiating is the best route to success. Bombing and leveling the place is your best chance to have them killed in the action. Which do you want? Even if you couldn't get all of them that was promised during the ceasefire you must keep negotiating because you may get some more of them. It also may be a bitter pill to swallow to realize that the bombing has already likely killed some of the hostages. So try to negotiate to get them so that the respect of a funeral and respect for the loss can be given to their families.

[EX500rider]

61. It's also possible Hamas has run out of hostages who story they want told

The ones left might have suffered torture/rape at the hands of their captors and give Hamas a big PR hit for those who don't already think they are pond scum.

And I agree they may not control all of the ones left but I imagine the smaller more militant groups treated their hostages even worse.

[moniss]

67. Agreed 100% that the

smaller groups are an unknown and likely worst possible situation. It's probably a sure bet that the ones still held are a mix of wounded and in bad shape etc. I don't think they would bother to hang on to any that died and instead would just abandon the bodies somewhere. You can't keep dead bodies around you "unpreserved" for very long. After a few weeks a body deteriorates severely and you can't drag it around because it will just fall apart. A possible, somewhat hopeful thought, is that some of these hostages were quickly taken to Qatar and are being held there.

[Beastly Boy]

22. Do you want a cease fire?

Here's Sinwar's phone number
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-777778

Call him. Tell him you want a cease fire. Ask him why he doesn't want one.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. I remember when Israeli commandos were precise and lethal.

Not so much under this current Netanyahu regime.

[EX500rider]

60. I doubt they were commandos, IDF has lots of regular combat troops deployed in Gaza

Also sad but not surprising this happened, troops in urban combat get a hair trigger to keep alive, esp when fighting non-uniformed terrorists. Friendly fire is much more common then most people realize.

[Prairie Gates]

21. IDF has freed one hostage directly in their ground operations

It was a female IDF soldier taken hostage during October 7 and liberated from Hamas a few weeks ago (before the ceasefire and exchanges).

Obviously, one can argue that those freed during the exchanges were freed as a result of Israeli military pressure, but in terms of hostages directly freed by ground forces, that number stands at one.

One has to wonder about how out of the loop Israeli intelligence actually is. It very much appears that they don't have the first clue where any of these hostages are being kept. The number freed into Egypt during the exchanges obviously informed the IDF's choice of the post ceasefire offensive in the south.

[EX500rider]

62. I doubt the IDF in the confusion & combat inside the Israeli border the 1st day had much chance to keep track of them

Most of the available recon drones would have been tasked with finding the terror groups in Israel still on the hunt to kill more Israeli civilians.

And once they disappeared down tunnels it would have gotten a lot harder.

[Donkees]

29. IDF releases name of third hostage killed by friendly fire as Alon Lulu Shamriz, 26, from Kfar Azza

The Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council announces the death of Kibbutz Kfar Aza resident Alon Lulu Shamriz, revealing the identity of the third Israeli hostage mistakenly shot dead by the IDF during fighting in northern Gaza earlier today.

Shamriz, 26, was a computer engineering student. His parents are from Iran.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/third-hostage-mistakenly-killed-by-idf-identified-as-alon-lulu-shamriz/

[maxsolomon]

35. a quarter of IDF deaths in Gaza have been friendly fire.

war is hell. there is fog. mistakes are easy. judging combat operations from 8,000 miles away is easy.

no hostages, no hostages shot.

[SarahD]

40. I would shoot them, too.

I would be so terrified I would shoot at anything that moved. Probably some stuff that didn't move as well. I can't imagine being in that situation. But what do I know? I'm just a girl.

[EX500rider]

63. Yeah looking at released IDF combat footage shows how chaotic urban combat is

And I agree, getting a hair trigger would be a result of the fear of being killed.

&list=FLKmbj3XF1ryOYtieVrQey4g&index=1

[Eugene]

52. Israeli hostages killed mistakenly in Gaza were holding white flag, official says

Source: Reuters

Israeli hostages killed mistakenly in Gaza were holding white flag, official says

Reuters
Sat, December 16, 2023 at 7:07 AM EST·1 min read

JERUSALEM (Reuters) -Three Israeli hostages killed mistakenly in Gaza by Israeli forces had been holding up a white flag, according to an initial inquiry into the incident, a military official said on Saturday.

The incident happened in an area of intense combat where Hamas militants operate in civilian attire and use deception tactics, the official said.

A soldier saw the hostages emerging tens of meters from Israeli forces in the area of Shejaiya, the official said.

"They're all without shirts and they have a stick with a white cloth on it. The soldier feels threatened and opens fire. He declares that they're terrorists, they (forces) open fire, two are killed immediately," said the military official.

-snip-

Read more: https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-hostages-killed-mistakenly-gaza-120718301.html

[Donkees]

53. There's a separate thread on this preliminary report from earlier this morning

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218530952

[madaboutharry]

57. I was watching Israeli news when this story broke.

The people broadcasting, all of whom themselves had been in the military, were visibly shaken and left with an inability to explain it.

The loss of 3 hostages under these circumstances is a tragedy for the young men who lost their lives and for those that loved them. The IDF has taken full responsibility. acknowledging there was a breakdown in protocol and a failure to provide adequate training along with a failure to take into account that hostages could escape or be abandoned.

Among some, Hamas gets a global pass on its complete disregard for the rules of war while Israel is held to an impossible standard that applies only to one country. The reaction to any news about this war has become so predictable that it is an example of pavlovian theory.

[EX500rider]

64. Yeah anyone surprised this could happen is ignorant of the actual frequency of friendly fire

Plus the IDF has had to use more then just their Tier 1 Special Operation troops for this.

[Autumn]

66. It was reported on local news this morning. They were shirtless, waving a white cloth and yelling help in Hebrew

and from 100 yards away they were shot and killed by the Israeli troops.

[WhiteTara]

68. They accidentally killed Israelis but

they meant to kill Palestinians.

[republianmushroom]

69. "accidentally" Israeli military says soldier opened fire on hostages holding white flag. "accidentally"

"Israeli military accidentally shoots and kills 3 Israelis held hostage in Gaza."

Israeli military says soldier opened fire on hostages holding white flag. "accidentally"

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/israel-gaza-war-hamas-news-updates/

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143169180