Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Nanjeanne

(6,486 posts)
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:37 AM Dec 2023

If Settler Violence Wasn't Enough, Israel Is Now Depriving Jordan Valley Palestinians of Water

Since the start of the war, some 20 Palestinian families have been forced out of their homes in the Jordan Valley by heightened settler violence. Meanwhile, the army denies the shepherd communities access to water. Israeli volunteers are trying to protect them day and night

From Haaretz by Gideon Levy and Alex Levac

Twelve forty-five, this past Monday, in the northern Jordan Valley. The northern section of the Allon Road (Highway 578) is deserted, as usual, but by the roadside, between the settlements of Ro'i and Beka'ot, a small convoy of water tanks, pulled by tractors and trucks, is standing and waiting. And waiting. Waiting till the sheep come home. Soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces were supposed to come a few hours ago to open the iron gate, but the IDF isn't showing up and isn't calling either, as the song goes. When the number listed by the army on the yellow gate is called, the phone on the other side of the line is answered and then immediately disconnected. An activist with Machsom Watch: Women for Human Rights, Tamar Berger, has tried three times this morning, and each time, as soon as she identified herself, the other side slammed the phone down demonstratively. The Palestinian drivers are afraid to call.

This is the time of the yellow wind, the time of the water carriers in the northern Jordan Valley, who are compelled to wait for hours upon hours until the army force that holds the key arrives and opens the gate for those hauling the water to enter. In this parched region, Israel doesn't allow the Palestinian residents to hook up to any water supply network: They and their sheep must depend on the expensive water that's transported in the tanks, and the drivers of the trucks and the tractors are totally dependent on a soldier with a key.

SNIP

The soldier with the rifle that's aimed at us chews his donut lazily, one hand holding it, the other on the trigger. All together now: "Maoz tzur yeshuati" – "O mighty stronghold of my salvation." The truck with the animal feed doesn't get through. No coordination. An officer wearing a kippa is summoned to the site and from a distance takes our picture with his phone.

The IDF Spokesperson's Unit, in response to an inquiry from Haaretz about the irregular operation of the checkpoint: "In the wake of a number of security events that have occurred here, the gate was blocked in part. Passage through the gate is with coordination only, and is permitted according to the operational situation appraisal in the sector."

SNIP

One family left, the volunteers relate, after settlers from Shadmot Mehola and their Shabbat guests from a religious boarding school at Kibbutz Tirat Zvi broke the arm of the father of the family. "Two weeks ago," explains Gutterman, "when three friends of ours were here, settlers roused the whole tent camp at 2:30 A.M. with shouts and flashlights, and frightened everyone. Then they started to plow a plot of private land that had recently been declared 'abandoned land.'"

Less than two weeks ago, two volunteers were attacked here. One was beaten with a club and was pepper-sprayed in his eyes, the other took a stone to the head. "There is a campaign of ethnic cleansing going on here," Gutterman says.



This is a long article that I only could use snippets. But about something I had no idea about. For me - frightening and brings home how much we don’t know about how Palestinians live - with so much attention on Gaza many forget how difficult it is in other areas of Israel as well. Thank goodness for the brave Jewish volunteers who attempt to help these shepherds

If interested in learning more than just tweets - I recommend reading the whole article.

https://archive.is/u9pPt]
69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
If Settler Violence Wasn't Enough, Israel Is Now Depriving Jordan Valley Palestinians of Water (Original Post) Nanjeanne Dec 2023 OP
I've been reading about Israel's depredations on Palestinians for years. Lonestarblue Dec 2023 #1
The brazenness of cruelty is shocking. David__77 Dec 2023 #3
My hope as well Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #4
K&R stonecutter357 Dec 2023 #2
There are Israeli settlers pushing to occupy all the land from sea to river. sanatanadharma Dec 2023 #5
Actually, I heard one of the early settlers considered more or less a matriarch now, Big Blue Marble Dec 2023 #60
Israel wants that land and for Palestinians to leave IronLionZion Dec 2023 #6
Self deportation... 2naSalit Dec 2023 #8
I don't see how this ends well. Even Netanyahu in the Hague TeamProg Dec 2023 #7
I can see where it's going. roamer65 Dec 2023 #9
Really? former9thward Dec 2023 #14
That's a very good point, Palestinians have been removed from other Arab nations for political interference, I believe. TeamProg Dec 2023 #36
Palestinians don't equal hamas... Think. Again. Dec 2023 #52
The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas. former9thward Dec 2023 #54
The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas 17 YEARS AGO... Think. Again. Dec 2023 #56
I don't know who they surveyed or how they did it. former9thward Dec 2023 #57
My apologies... Think. Again. Dec 2023 #58
Thanks. former9thward Dec 2023 #59
Israeli brutality has taught them to hate their oppressors. /nt artemisia1 Dec 2023 #68
Such a war has been the prediction since about the 80's I'd say. Hope not. Cooler heads need to prevail. I don't TeamProg Dec 2023 #35
None of this would be happening if not for Hamas' attack on 10-7 and their subsequent breaking the ceasefire. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #10
perhaps-- but why are these Palestinians being punished? LymphocyteLover Dec 2023 #12
They are the unfortunate collateral victims of a war that Hamas started. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #15
collateral damge how cute dembotoz Dec 2023 #23
That's not what I said. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #25
Your statement is dehumanizing and minimizing of the Palestinian suffering. Big Blue Marble Dec 2023 #63
Think of it in terms of the fact that Hamas is brought death to civilians by hiding among civilians * Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #64
Good luck ancianita Dec 2023 #33
Those leaders will eventually have no army. Slow and steady wins the race. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #43
So Israeli settlers are agents of Hamas? Do they have no free will? ck4829 Dec 2023 #42
yes, but that doesn't answer my question LymphocyteLover Dec 2023 #48
Hamas isn't in the West Bank Basic LA Dec 2023 #16
It's really a shame that the mycelium and tendrils of war have stretched so far. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #21
Or we can blame the brutal Occupation for everything. Basic LA Dec 2023 #27
Blame the ancianita Dec 2023 #34
Why should other countries be responsible? Diraven Dec 2023 #51
There are what are called alliances and treaties. ancianita Dec 2023 #61
Hezbollah is in the West Bank. TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #66
Bullshit. It HAS been happening. For decades. LuvLoogie Dec 2023 #20
I doubt that. Oopsie Daisy Dec 2023 #24
And the Muslim world has to stop coddling its believer extremists who have attacked ancianita Dec 2023 #37
Wow. Interesting take. Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #38
For years I've considered it the fairest win-win solution for all parties. ancianita Dec 2023 #39
It's been happening for 70 years knightmaar Dec 2023 #30
Nope, that's impossible to say, but who doesn't like pie in the sky? Or wishful thinking. TeamProg Dec 2023 #40
Israel has been sending settlers into the West Bank since 1967 IronLionZion Dec 2023 #47
this kind of reporting-- trying to write fancy descriptive scenes when there's a more important LymphocyteLover Dec 2023 #11
Well some people may not be able to digest an article that is not a simple headline. I enjoy expressive and Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #19
It was excellent, thank you. Goddessartist Dec 2023 #44
honestly I'm glad you have time to read long articles like this LymphocyteLover Dec 2023 #49
I dont look at it as news. It's learning to me. I take my time. Read and try to digest. I enjoy it. Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #50
Access to water has been a driving force of conflict in this region for millennia Cheezoholic Dec 2023 #13
Exactly. Why is the word "now" in the headline? knightmaar Dec 2023 #31
They will face the consequences malaise Dec 2023 #17
The bank is closed today BannonsLiver Dec 2023 #26
Maybe give Israel terms of surrender? Like it usually works in war? elias7 Dec 2023 #18
I think it's more irreconcilable leaders. There are many Israeli and Palestinians working together Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #22
You think Netanyahu has played by the rules ??!! TeamProg Dec 2023 #41
Throughout moniss Dec 2023 #28
And using skunkwater, Goddessartist Dec 2023 #45
This is reminding me more and more of white settlers, Bayard Dec 2023 #29
Bingo. Think. Again. Dec 2023 #53
Jewish people are indigenous to the land. TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #67
For those who insist this is happening because of the 10/7 terrorist attack Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #32
The sad thing is that people think this is a "one off" WarGamer Dec 2023 #46
Yep... Think. Again. Dec 2023 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author redgreenandblue Dec 2023 #62
The premise is that a war if aggression was perpetrated TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #65
The question I have is why this PROGRESSIVE forum has so many apologists for genocide? /nt artemisia1 Dec 2023 #69

Lonestarblue

(13,158 posts)
1. I've been reading about Israel's depredations on Palestinians for years.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:54 AM
Dec 2023

They established open-air prisons in Gaza and the West Bank, then gave violent settlers the right, supported by a rabid IDF, to take Palestinians’ lands and simply kill them if they objected or fought back. Palestinians have few rights. Israel controls their water, though a few of them have wells. It is a favorite tactic of the settlers to prison the wells so Palestinians have to abandon the property of find fresh water elsewhere every day. I read several years ago that Israel limited the amount of water for each person in Gaza to the equivalent of one 16 ounce bottle per day—for all uses. Gazans used salty water for showers, washing clothes, etc., because the underground aquifers could not support over 2 million people.

Israel made Gaza and the West Bank interment camps for Palestinians. Most of the world just ignored their mistreatment and their continuing illegal taking of Palestinian lands. I hope this current cisis finally results in real change for the Palestinians.

David__77

(24,500 posts)
3. The brazenness of cruelty is shocking.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 10:11 AM
Dec 2023

The US should not be supporting this and economic pressure on companies not to do business in settlements seems reasonable.

sanatanadharma

(4,075 posts)
5. There are Israeli settlers pushing to occupy all the land from sea to river.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 10:52 AM
Dec 2023

There are Israeli settlers pushing to occupy all the west bank, expanding Israel from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordon River.

Big Blue Marble

(5,661 posts)
60. Actually, I heard one of the early settlers considered more or less a matriarch now,
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 10:48 PM
Dec 2023

say from the river to the sea meaning the Euphrates to the Red Sea.

IronLionZion

(50,616 posts)
6. Israel wants that land and for Palestinians to leave
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 11:08 AM
Dec 2023

So the settlers and IDF make life unbearable hoping people will choose to leave. Except they have nowhere to go. Not a good situation.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
14. Really?
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:02 PM
Dec 2023

Who would be on the side of Hamas and the PA in this Great Middle East war? Not the Arab states who have washed their hands of the Palestinians.

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
36. That's a very good point, Palestinians have been removed from other Arab nations for political interference, I believe.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:56 PM
Dec 2023
 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
52. Palestinians don't equal hamas...
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:14 PM
Dec 2023

Mexicans don't equal rapists.

Trans people don't equal child predators.

Americans don't equal maga.

Blacks don't equal thugs....

You get the picture.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
54. The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:21 PM
Dec 2023

At every point people in Gaza have celebrated the death of Israelis. A mob of people in Gaza attacked the hostages being released.
Hamas had to keep the crowds from killing the hostages. Google is full of videos. There is no evidence the majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the goals of Hamas. No evidence.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
56. The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas 17 YEARS AGO...
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:27 PM
Dec 2023

...and hamas has not allowed an election since then.

You say " There is no evidence the majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the goals of Hamas. No evidence."

You might find the below survey interested, it was taken just before 10/6...

From foreignaffairs.com:

"The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts. Arab Barometer, a research network where we serve as co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas war broke out. The findings, published here for the first time, reveal that rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas’s ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

(Full article: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas )

Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/7mWq0

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
57. I don't know who they surveyed or how they did it.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:37 PM
Dec 2023

I could not read the article at the link because it was paywalled. I wish it were true but I am very skeptical about it.

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
35. Such a war has been the prediction since about the 80's I'd say. Hope not. Cooler heads need to prevail. I don't
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:54 PM
Dec 2023

think today's youth is very interested in wars, so maybe that will dampen the heat down a bit.

There are far more Sunnis than Shiites ( 10% of all Muslims, majority in only a handful of countries: Iran, Iraq, Bahrain) in the M.E. if that carries any weight, but then ISIS is Sunni based.

So....




Oopsie Daisy

(6,670 posts)
10. None of this would be happening if not for Hamas' attack on 10-7 and their subsequent breaking the ceasefire.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 11:55 AM
Dec 2023

Oopsie Daisy

(6,670 posts)
15. They are the unfortunate collateral victims of a war that Hamas started.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:03 PM
Dec 2023

This war is happening and it will not end until Hamas is destroyed. It is Hamas who has put civilians in danger by hiding amongst them, by storing their weapons in/near/under schools, hospitals, nursing homes, etc. It's Hamas who have established that they will steal and hoard and ration incoming aid/water/fuel/food/meds. It's a heartbreaking shame that this is happening, but we mustn't lose sight of why it's happening. I hope the war ends soon and that Hamas is destroyed.

Oopsie Daisy

(6,670 posts)
25. That's not what I said.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:16 PM
Dec 2023
23. collateral damge how cute
That's not what I said. What I said was: They are the unfortunate collateral victims of a war that Hamas started.

Big Blue Marble

(5,661 posts)
63. Your statement is dehumanizing and minimizing of the Palestinian suffering.
Sun Dec 17, 2023, 02:38 AM
Dec 2023

Starving the people of Gaza and destroying the homes, medical facilities, and civil Infrastructure
of 2.5 million people is far more than collateral damage. It is collective punishment.
Over 75,000 people have been injured or killed and nearly half of them are children.
Think about this terms of individual human suffering not just "unfortunate collateral victims."

Oopsie Daisy

(6,670 posts)
64. Think of it in terms of the fact that Hamas is brought death to civilians by hiding among civilians *
Sun Dec 17, 2023, 08:17 AM
Dec 2023

* and by stockpiling weapons and creating command centers in/around/among/under/inside schools and hospitals and markets. In addition to the kidnapping and rape, and sexual-mutilation, and rape with weapons, and murder while raping, and gang rape... these are all things that Hamas has done, and the actions of Hamas have consequences. These are the tragic consequences.

>> Your statement is dehumanizing and minimizing of the Palestinian suffering.
No, it does no such thing. It simply states the cold hard facts and the honest truth of how and why all of this is happening. Whether it's described individually or collectively, it really changes nothing, does it. The fact remains that this is because of Hamas and only Hamas can make it stop.

ancianita

(42,725 posts)
33. Good luck
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:44 PM
Dec 2023

destroying Hamas leadership that's sitting pretty in Qatar.
The Muslim world wants them there.
Unless our CIA's Will Burns, State Dept's Blinken and President Biden know their names and can do a workaround deal with the Emir of Qatar -- which is unlikely -- the reality is that as long as Hamas leadership exists, Hamas, charter and all, will continue to exist.

LymphocyteLover

(9,216 posts)
48. yes, but that doesn't answer my question
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 07:17 PM
Dec 2023

why are they collateral damage in this part of the country?

 

Basic LA

(2,047 posts)
16. Hamas isn't in the West Bank
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:06 PM
Dec 2023

Palestinians in general seem to be the unwanted element. We can't blame Hamas for everything in life. Palestinian harassment & displacement is much older than any current resistance group.

Oopsie Daisy

(6,670 posts)
21. It's really a shame that the mycelium and tendrils of war have stretched so far.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:10 PM
Dec 2023

Their actions make sense to me. Yes, we can blame Hamas for everything.

 

Basic LA

(2,047 posts)
27. Or we can blame the brutal Occupation for everything.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:20 PM
Dec 2023

But I like your way with words. Mycelium & tendrils. Very nicely put.

ancianita

(42,725 posts)
34. Blame the
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:53 PM
Dec 2023

Muslim world for using extremist proxies to fight the West in general, which is why Biden sent the 6th Fleet to keep that proxy war from regionally expanding. Proxy wars are wars of choice.

Blame the Muslim world for not caring about their Palestinian brothers & sisters enough to have give them land to form their own state, which they could do, but refuse to do.

Look at a map of the region and you can see how land could be donated to the Palestinians. But proxy believer wars are wars of choice.

Diraven

(1,774 posts)
51. Why should other countries be responsible?
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 09:11 PM
Dec 2023

So other Muslim countries should kick their own citizens out of their homes to give them instead to West Bank Palestinians who are being driven out of their own homes by Israeli settlers who want to steal their land?

ancianita

(42,725 posts)
61. There are what are called alliances and treaties.
Sun Dec 17, 2023, 02:05 AM
Dec 2023

Maybe read up on the history of who's responsible for Israel's existence.
Read up on whether or not Palestinians have a formal treaty that proves they have a state or homeland that's being stolen.
When you find it, please link it.

If Palestinians are not internationally recognized as a nation or state, then on what basis do they claim the land they live on is theirs? Please link that as well.

Nevermind. No offense, but I'm not going to explain history, international law, believer wars, or any terms of human rights with you. We have leaders for figuring how these two peoples are going to coexist.






LuvLoogie

(8,442 posts)
20. Bullshit. It HAS been happening. For decades.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:10 PM
Dec 2023

Nobody is buying tit for tat arguments anymore. These policies are entrenched in the Knesset and Netanyahu's coalition. The U.S. needs to stop coddling them, openly.

ancianita

(42,725 posts)
37. And the Muslim world has to stop coddling its believer extremists who have attacked
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:57 PM
Dec 2023

Israel first, each and every time, for decades. Israel wouldn't be defensively driving for land if the Muslim world's ayatollahs or other religious leaders had already donated land to the Palestinians for their own state.
The Muslim world could have enabled a two state solution decades ago, and could right now stop its current pretense that any peace solution is solely on Israel and its Western allies.

ancianita

(42,725 posts)
39. For years I've considered it the fairest win-win solution for all parties.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 01:02 PM
Dec 2023

Netanyahu has held back because rich Muslim neighbors have also held back.

knightmaar

(748 posts)
30. It's been happening for 70 years
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:30 PM
Dec 2023

Just slower so some people could pretend they didn't notice.

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
40. Nope, that's impossible to say, but who doesn't like pie in the sky? Or wishful thinking.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 01:11 PM
Dec 2023


IronLionZion

(50,616 posts)
47. Israel has been sending settlers into the West Bank since 1967
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 04:11 PM
Dec 2023
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement_timeline

Settler violence has been happening for years. It's only been deemed newsworthy now because the world's attention is on the Gaza war after the Hamas 10/7 attacks.

LymphocyteLover

(9,216 posts)
11. this kind of reporting-- trying to write fancy descriptive scenes when there's a more important
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 11:56 AM
Dec 2023

story that gets lost here.

Also, most people just don't have time to read this sort of long reporting.

Nanjeanne

(6,486 posts)
19. Well some people may not be able to digest an article that is not a simple headline. I enjoy expressive and
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:09 PM
Dec 2023

Last edited Sat Dec 16, 2023, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Powerful writing. And just in case you didn’t realize, it’s not “reporting”. It’s an in depth expose.

Different strokes so no need to read it if it’s not your cuppa.

Levy is a writer with many awards including the Emil Grunzweig Human Rights Award in 1996 from the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the Anna Lindh Foundation Journalism Award in 2008 for an article he wrote about Palestinian children killed by Israeli forces, and the Peace Through Media Award in 2012. In 2021, Levy was awarded Israel's top journalism award, the Sokolow Prize. In its citation, the prize committee wrote that Levy "presents original and independent positions that do not surrender to convention or social codes, and in doing so enriches the public discourse fearlessly."

So I don’t think he will change his evocative writing to make it easier for some to digest. He’s not writing for Twitter.

LymphocyteLover

(9,216 posts)
49. honestly I'm glad you have time to read long articles like this
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 07:24 PM
Dec 2023

I always wonder how many people do read these sorts of pieces.

Personally I like getting news that's straight to the point and then reading longer form writing in book form. But to each their own!

Nanjeanne

(6,486 posts)
50. I dont look at it as news. It's learning to me. I take my time. Read and try to digest. I enjoy it.
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 08:59 PM
Dec 2023

News is something I consume quickly and briefly. Books, magazine articles, long interviews - that’s my way of getting history and background and facts and ideas I may not have known or thought about. One piece can lead me to research something else. Like dominoes. I’ve read many pieces by Gideon Levy. His book, The Punishment of Gaza I read maybe 10 years ago. He’s hated by many of the right wing Israeli government and I’ve been introduced to his work by Israeli leftist peace activists that my family have worked with.

Not everyone enjoys going into the weeds on things. I do. But I don’t consider it “news”. For me it impacts how I think about news.

Cheezoholic

(3,472 posts)
13. Access to water has been a driving force of conflict in this region for millennia
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:00 PM
Dec 2023

just as much as religion or anything else. And it's only going to get worse with climate change combining with the demands for the resource as populations in these small areas explode like they have over the last 100 years. The Middle East isn't the only place water is becoming the most valuable resource around. Hell we're already seeing it in the West here at home. The water resources in these areas worldwide simply cannot support the massive human populations trying to slurp every drop. The sound of the bottom of the milk shake glass will only get louder in the years to come.

elias7

(4,229 posts)
18. Maybe give Israel terms of surrender? Like it usually works in war?
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:07 PM
Dec 2023

I don't mean to be an asshole and I don't support what Israel is doing militarily in this moment, but this is a war and it is hard for Israel to play by the rules when Hamas, Houthis, Hezbollah are attacking Israel from all sides, using citizens as shields, and most frustratingly, not being encouraged by the rest of the world to play by the rules. These terrorist groups (or freedom fighters?) are being treated as if they have no agency for their own behavior. I don't feel that is right either.

But it so very heartening hearing of these Jewish volunteers taking the high road and helping the Palestinian shepherds; they are the bridge two seemingly irreconcilable peoples.

Nanjeanne

(6,486 posts)
22. I think it's more irreconcilable leaders. There are many Israeli and Palestinians working together
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:12 PM
Dec 2023

in various organizations within Israel and elsewhere towards peace.

moniss

(8,550 posts)
28. Throughout
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:24 PM
Dec 2023

the West Bank for many years the tactic of control of the water resource has been used to try and drive people away.

Bayard

(28,200 posts)
29. This is reminding me more and more of white settlers,
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:25 PM
Dec 2023

Just taking Indigenous lands, and killing them if they object. All with the U.S. government's blessing.

Nanjeanne

(6,486 posts)
32. For those who insist this is happening because of the 10/7 terrorist attack
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 12:34 PM
Dec 2023

B’Tselem, the Israeli Human Rights organization can provide you with much information. It requires reading, not looking at a tweet - but for anyone who is actually inclined to know history and facts - it’s worth a read.

Dispossession and Exploitation: Israel's Policy in the Jordan Valley and Northern Dead Sea

https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/dispossession-and-exploitation-israels-policy-jordan-valley-northern-dead-sea]

Here’s a part about the water discussion. Certainly policy that has nothing to do with Hamas or 10/7.

Israel has taken control of most of the water sources in the area and has earmarked them for the almost exclusive use of the settlers.

Most Israeli water drillings in the West Bank – 28 of the 42 drillings – are located in the Jordan Valley. These drillings provide Israel with some 32 million m3 a year, most of which is allocated to the settlements. The annual allocation of water to the area’s 9,400 settlers from the drillings, the Jordan River, treated wastewater, and artificial water reservoirs is 45 million m3. The water allocated to the settlements has enabled them to develop intensive-farming methods and to work the land year round, with most of the produce being exported. The water allocation to the settlements is almost one-third the quantity of water that is accessible to the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank.

Israel’s control of the water sources in the area has caused some Palestinian wells drying up and has led to a drop in the quantity of water that can be produced from other wells and from springs. In comparison, in 2008, Palestinians pumped 31 million m3, which is 44 percent less than Palestinians produced in the area prior to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement of 1995. Due to the water shortage, Palestinians were forced to neglect farmland that had been in cultivation and switch to growing less profitable crops. In the Jericho governorate, the amount of land used for agriculture is the lowest among the Palestinian governorates in the West Bank – 4.7 percent compared to an average of 25 percent in the other governorates.

Israel’s control of most of the land area also prevents equal distribution of water resources to the Palestinian communities in the area; it also prevents the movement of water to Palestinian communities outside the area. Water consumption in Beduin communities is equivalent to the quantity that the UN has set as the minimal quantity needed to survive in humanitarian-disaster areas.

WarGamer

(18,200 posts)
46. The sad thing is that people think this is a "one off"
Sat Dec 16, 2023, 02:47 PM
Dec 2023

From before it's founding, Israeli leaders have been very much pro-kicking out the Palestinians.

From David Ben-Gurion to Nuttyahoo... nothing has changed.

Response to Nanjeanne (Original post)

 

TheKentuckian

(26,314 posts)
65. The premise is that a war if aggression was perpetrated
Sun Dec 17, 2023, 01:39 PM
Dec 2023

that if it was successful wipes Israel off the globe but since they were defeated lands captured are stolen?

I'm inclined to provide directions to the nearest rusty dumpster and instructions on using it for self pleasure.

Seems to me the posture after making that grave miscalculation would be closer to hat in hand asking forgiveness than haughty, defiant demands and violence.

What demands would they have entertained had they won?

Would there have been any Palestinian? Nope! Just like there wasn't one before in Arab lands, ever.

Come bloody murder (preferably on civilians, it seems over decades) get their asses kicked, cry foul to beat the band at the consequences, radicalize, apply propaganda rinse generously, escalate, and repeat in perpetual bad faith.

They can seek reward from those they joined with in attempted genocide.
If the lands were truly so valued then they should not have been put into the middle of the table seeking the big jackpot.

If the pre 1967 borders are so important then why in 1967 did those wanting them seek to destroy them?

The settlers are another matter, it would seem a militarized buffer zone is what would serve best until proper concessions and compensation made to allow a potential negotiated return/change of ownership.

Of course, if there is no such will then the territory is again forfeited. Go take over where many hundreds of thousands were "ethnically cleansed" out of that have no right of return.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»If Settler Violence Wasn'...