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Bucky

(54,084 posts)
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 01:10 PM Dec 2023

As our Republican compatriots love pointing out, we're a republic, not a democracy

Of course as a government teacher for the last ten years, I should clarify that these aren't mutually exclusive terms. The US is a republic and a democracy... and a federation of fifty states that are all to be guaranteed "a republican form of government" (Article IV, Section 4) by our Constitution. We're complicated like that.

I like to think about it this way: as a nation, as one people indivisible as a nationality, Americans are culturally democratic. That's the part of you that finds it sketchy that Colorado's Supreme voted 4-3 to remove Trump from the primary ballot. If we want to put Trumpism down, it won't be with legal technicalities. It can only happen with a strong political repudiation of his cult-like following at the polls in November. The law alone won't stop a movement rooted in believing it's above the law.

But as a country, as a legally constituted political entity called the United States, Americanism is in large part defined by a commitment to the rule of law--the law that we should all stand equal before. That's what we mean by guaranteeing a republican form of government. And the letter of the law is quite plain: someone who has taken an oath of office but then went on to engage in insurrection can hold federal or state office.

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.


Of course our Republican friends who no longer uphold the principles of either democracy or republicanism (or the fundamentals of truth) will cling to the idiotic argument that the presidency is not "an officer of the United States," and I fully expect Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito to cling to this fiction. They'll argue that the job of the president wasn't enumerated among the offices the rebs were disqualified from (Senator, Representative, elector), but as originalists they're also supposed to contend with the fact that the authors of the 14th never could have imagined any political party would be so foolish or so petty as to nominate a traitor to be president. Ha! Shows what they knew! Anyway, the argument that the president isn't an officer of the United States is moronic. Hence my expectations about Thomas and Alito.

But the grownup argument -- and this is what I've said from the beginning of this debate -- is that Donald Trump is so far accused of attempting to forcefully overthrow the government two weeks before his term ended, but hasn't been convicted of this specific charge. I think the evidence is overwhelming that he's guilty of it. But I admit I'm not unbiased. More importantly, there hasn't been a conviction by judge or jury on the charge--and I contend that because laws matter, because equal right for all matters, there needs to be a factual conclusion by a court of law reached proving that Trump rebelled against the United States. And maybe I'm being boneheaded in demanding legal certainty against the wild-eyed conjectures of Maga conspiracy theorists who don't even accede to the consensus reality. But where men fall for lies, we must always keep well lit the beacon of truth.

I am, as an American culturally, more eager to see Trump's threat to the nation put down by a small-d democratic vote, even if that's a risk that the "mobocracy" that the Founders feared could be hornswaggled by a demagogue into voting against their own liberty. And I am, as an American politically, convinced that the Coppertone Mussolini needs to be found legally guilty by a court before he can be disqualified under the laws of the Republic. The laws matter. Or at least, if civilization is on the line, the laws matter until they don't. Donald Trump is an agent of chaos. He threatens civilization. If civilization is to be held up, we have to uphold the laws that make us civilized.

In practical matters, of course, none of this matters. Regardless of how the SCOTUS rules on Trump's disqualification, he's only going to ever be removed from the ballot in a handful of Blue States where he couldn't have won the electors anyway. It's a hollow gesture to remove him from the ballot. It will have no effect, except to have validated his ridiculous argument that the system is rigged against him. As a partisan Democrat, I don't believe in validating ridiculous arguments.
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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As our Republican compatriots love pointing out, we're a republic, not a democracy (Original Post) Bucky Dec 2023 OP
It's more than a "legal technicality", it's part of the supreme law of the land Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2023 #1
Of course the "technicality" isn't the existence of the 14th Amt. It's whether it applies without a verdict Bucky Dec 2023 #2
Precisely TheProle Dec 2023 #4
I'd love it too. But it's not gonna happen. Bucky Dec 2023 #9
The 14th Amendment has only been used to remove or unseat elected officials. LeftInTX Dec 2023 #14
Ugh Cenk Uyger... 😠 Bucky Dec 2023 #19
They only say that in order to make it sound like Aristus Dec 2023 #3
The Democratic Party was originally named the Republican Party Bucky Dec 2023 #6
This is qualifications issue, not a criminal one nuxvomica Dec 2023 #5
The Colorado ruling actually does deprive Trump of his liberty. The freedom to run for office is a basic American right Bucky Dec 2023 #7
So if you're under 35, you are deprived of that liberty nuxvomica Dec 2023 #8
You can't prove a negative. Participation in insurrection is a positive claim and a contigent disqualification. Bucky Dec 2023 #10
And the insurrection was documented nuxvomica Dec 2023 #11
Four out of three Bucky Dec 2023 #12
Section 3 doesn't require it nuxvomica Dec 2023 #13
So a judge can rule that someone engaged in a rebellion also. LeftInTX Dec 2023 #16
Where are you getting this? You're clearly not a lawyer Bucky Dec 2023 #17
I find ad hominum arguments uncovincing nuxvomica Dec 2023 #23
Ignore the ad hominems. Read this article. Bucky Dec 2023 #24
Yep LeftInTX Dec 2023 #15
Deprivation of liberty here means jsil treestar Dec 2023 #22
My government teacher back in the 60's taught us we have a Democratic Republic. Emile Dec 2023 #18
The English language is gifted with synonyms Bucky Dec 2023 #20
Exactly, your students are lucky to have such a good teacher. Emile Dec 2023 #21

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,447 posts)
1. It's more than a "legal technicality", it's part of the supreme law of the land
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 01:16 PM
Dec 2023

It's an important amendment to the original U.S. Constitution whose need was brutally revealed by a very bloody civil war.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
2. Of course the "technicality" isn't the existence of the 14th Amt. It's whether it applies without a verdict
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 01:31 PM
Dec 2023

I'm with Claire McCaskill on this. I don't like things that help Trump. But one of the fundamental principles of our system is that even an obnoxious suspect is innocent until proven guilty. I don't think the can just by fiat assume he's guilty. That might be karmic justice, but it's not actual justice. The presumption of innocence isn't what we owe to Trump; but the Rule of Law is what we owe to ourselves.

TheProle

(2,199 posts)
4. Precisely
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 01:37 PM
Dec 2023

This will not (and cannot) be resolved with memes, petitions or conjecture, but with a responsible interpretation of the amendment at hand.

I would LOVE to see a 2024 ballot without Trump's name on it, but it should be legally arrived at.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
9. I'd love it too. But it's not gonna happen.
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 02:47 PM
Dec 2023

As long as the conduct of elections is a power reserved to the individual states, then there's just no living way Trump's name won't be on the ballot in all the states where he's a contender. Can you name even ONE red state where there's a flea's chance that Trump's name comes off the ballot? We already know how Republican officials react when a mob shows up.

LeftInTX

(25,565 posts)
14. The 14th Amendment has only been used to remove or unseat elected officials.
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 09:48 PM
Dec 2023

It has not been used to strike a candidate from the ballot.

Article II lists two minimum requirement, which if not been met, can be used to remove a candidate. Article II is not an amendment.

It can be used by the SOS of each state: Age and Natural Born Citizen. ( Jenk Ugyur has not been removed from Texas, but he has been removed from seven other states. However, another candidate can file a complain and he will be removed from the Texas Dem Primary ballot)

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
19. Ugh Cenk Uyger... 😠
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 06:39 AM
Dec 2023

Here's another person wasting everyone's time. I like a lot of what I hear on his show, but his ego is out of hand.

The only reason the Texas Secretary of State would allow him on the ballot when he's clearly not eligible to run is because our lame-ass SOS is calculating that it could disunify the Democrats in the state.

Aristus

(66,467 posts)
3. They only say that in order to make it sound like
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 01:37 PM
Dec 2023

the name of their party has some sort of significance, and that the name of our party does not. “Republic, not a democracy”. The battle cry of brainless twits everywhere.

As you pointed out, we are a democratic republic. As I like to point out, our respective parties have these names for no reason other than that political parties need names.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
6. The Democratic Party was originally named the Republican Party
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 02:17 PM
Dec 2023

Jefferson tried to heal the bruised egos after the 1800 election by saying "We are all Federalists, we are all Republicans."

Later that decade, as the new Democratic-Republican Clubs began to form in the northern states, the still-informal name of the still-informal parties evolved to be called the Democratic-Republican party. But the longer name wasn't really in vogue until Madison's administration. During the Federalist era, most politicians would have recoiled at being called democratic. It implied chaos and street violence. And that impression deepened when the mobs of the French Revolution started to give democracy a bad name. After France calmed down and the natural logic of the US being a land of "equal opportunity" progressed, the word lost its negative connotations.

For that matter, since parties weren't formal structures, the name Federalist also began as a euphemism. During the ratification debates of 1787-88, the Federalists took on the name in order to get away from the accusation of being "nationalists" as they'd been accused of (implying they wanted to replace the 13 republics with one big nation-state -- if you read the original Virginia Plan, it wasn't an inaccurate accusation).

The word democratic didn't really come into popular acceptance till after the War of 1812, and particularly was embraced during the Jacksonian period. Tocqueville's observations on American democratic culture show a very different world than the transplanted English country culture that had dominated in the 1700s. Somehow the word Whig got politicized and evolved into the name of the anti-Tory, pro-liberty leaders of the late colonial period. A "whig" is merchant slang for an English countryside horseless cowboy, what we'd call a yokel. They worked as drovers and smelled like, as Monty Python would say, they were absolutely not kings.

When it came time for the new anti-slavery party to organize on purer Jeffersonian principles, they took the name "Republicans" both because it was available and as an homage to Sally Hemmings's boyfriend. Once they started winning elections, the merchant class and robber barons moved in and quickly took over.

nuxvomica

(12,447 posts)
5. This is qualifications issue, not a criminal one
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 02:16 PM
Dec 2023

The court's decision does not deprive TFG of life, liberty or property even as much as a traffic ticket would but simply executes a qualifications barrier for running for office. It seems to me that the burden of proof is on his side, to show that he did not engage in an insurrection, that he is qualified. Prospective candidates have to meet such requirements all the time. I agree with the full court that he engaged in an insurrection and with the majority who found that disqualifying. I would not accuse them of failing to make the "grownup argument".

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
7. The Colorado ruling actually does deprive Trump of his liberty. The freedom to run for office is a basic American right
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 02:31 PM
Dec 2023

Anyway, the phrase "life, liberty or property" is Locke's philosophical term. The American rephrasing of that, via Jefferson, was " life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness" which means removing Trump's right to run for office deprives him of two of the three criteria. However American courts have long held that the Declaration of Independence has no legally binding authority.

I too agree that he engaged in insurrection. But until a court brings down a verdict to that effect, and this has not happened, then you and I share an opinion about his guilt. It's not a finding in fact by legal authority. If you want to argue the law, then I don't see how you can state that the burden of proof is on the accused.

The "grownup argument" is a dig at Republicans who cling to any of the Grand Idiot's theories of his innocence.

nuxvomica

(12,447 posts)
8. So if you're under 35, you are deprived of that liberty
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 02:40 PM
Dec 2023

If you're under 18, you can't vote. Why do we have qualifications if we can't be said to enforce them without depriving someone of liberty. This reminds me of the guy on a rooftop during a flood rejecting rescue by a boat or helicopter because God will save him and when he finally drowns and goes to heaven he asks why God didn't help, and God responds, "Jesus Christ! I sent you a boat and a helicopter." The Constitution establishes these qualifications so are we wrong for using them? Is it fair to his political opponents who did not engage in insurrection?

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
10. You can't prove a negative. Participation in insurrection is a positive claim and a contigent disqualification.
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 03:34 PM
Dec 2023

Technically, no president in our lifetimes has bothered to prove they didn't participate in an insurrection.
Please tell me you have a sounder understanding of "burden of proof" than what your comments imply.

Age, place of birth, and residency are easily documented. These are objective qualifications for office.
Participation in rebellion is a disqualification, meaning under law the burden of proof is on the accuser.

I'm assuming you understand the difference between a qualification and a disqualification

(NB: there was a candidate for the Republican nomination who didn't exactly meet the natural born citizen requirement--George Romney--but people just agreed that his citizenship from birth was a waveable objection since he wasn't formally considered a Mexican citizen anyway)

nuxvomica

(12,447 posts)
11. And the insurrection was documented
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 04:43 PM
Dec 2023

I saw it with my own eyes. And seven judges saw no problem with asserting that as fact.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
12. Four out of three
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 07:47 PM
Dec 2023

And one of those judges in their dissent specifically cited an argument I've been using all along: there ought to be an actual conviction on the insurrection charges by a jury or bench trial before it can be asserted as fact.

Honestly, it's not a high bar. I'm not sure what your objection is to insisting there be an actual finding of guilt

nuxvomica

(12,447 posts)
13. Section 3 doesn't require it
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 08:46 PM
Dec 2023

Judges can rule to the engaging in insurrection as a finding of fact, like a birth certificate. It shouldn't require the same process as a criminal trial, where the liberty or property of the defendant is at risk. If, for example, a witness in a trial is revealed to have committed perjury in their testimony, they don't delay the trial until the witness is charged and convicted in a separate trial, the jury isn't instructed to ignore the perjury. Do you think OJ should have won the wrongful death suit against him because he was acquitted in his murder trial?

LeftInTX

(25,565 posts)
16. So a judge can rule that someone engaged in a rebellion also.
Thu Dec 21, 2023, 09:56 PM
Dec 2023

What is a rebellion? It's also in article 3. Is it being arrested for an anti-war protest? (Usually a misdemeanor)

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
17. Where are you getting this? You're clearly not a lawyer
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 06:34 AM
Dec 2023

Your first two sentences demonstrate you clearly are not a lawyer.

I'm sorry that the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is a inconvenience to your political biases. But yes, under normal circumstances a determination of guilt of a criminal act requires a trial by jury (or, if a dumbass hires a dumbass attorney who checks the wrong box, a bench trial).

Determining that someone has committed a crime like insurrection when they claim they didn't is not as simple as a judge admitting a piece of evidence like a birth certificate. A determination of guilt is different from a piece of evidence.

I also can't understand why you can't see that the Civil Right to run for public office is a liberty enjoyed by American citizens, including a-holes like Trump, and to disqualify him from that requires a legal judgment.

As for your OJ analogy, you should know that there's a difference between a civil action, where a jury determines fault based on the preponderance of evidence and a criminal trial where a jury determines guilt beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

Different laws require different standards of proof (plus in the criminal OJ trial there was a prosecution hindered by police fabricating evidence). So what you've offered is a pretty irrelevant analogy.

Anyway, my main point is that due process matters, and that's probably the basis upon which the Supreme Court will overturn the Colorado decision. I guess we both get to watch that tragedy unfold in real time over the next few months.

nuxvomica

(12,447 posts)
23. I find ad hominum arguments uncovincing
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 07:50 AM
Dec 2023

I base my arguments on two assertions:

1) A finding of fact in a civil matter does not require meeting the standard of a criminal conviction.
2) Being placed on the ballot is not a civil right, it's a privilege as it requires meeting certain qualifications.

You disagree. Fine.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
24. Ignore the ad hominems. Read this article.
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 08:24 AM
Dec 2023

It's from the reliably left-leaning Vox News and it spells out both the procedural problems with the Colorado court's decision and the troublesome precedents that virtually guarantee the Supreme Court will overturn the state's disqualification of Trump.

The due process issue is just one vulnerability in the disqualification case. There's also a lack of agreed upon case law or legislation on the definition of what is insurrection.

Trump's right to be on the ballot will be upheld, and the Colorado Supreme Court made that much much easier for the Trump team to get a win here.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
22. Deprivation of liberty here means jsil
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 06:53 AM
Dec 2023

Every law deprives someone of a general liberty. But not all laws put someone in jail if violated.

Bucky

(54,084 posts)
20. The English language is gifted with synonyms
Fri Dec 22, 2023, 06:44 AM
Dec 2023

The "Are we a Republic or a Democracy?" debate is inherently stupid.

It'd be like holding a debate on whether Great Britain is a kingdom, a monarchy, an island, or a realm?

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