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WarGamer

(18,613 posts)
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 04:49 PM Dec 2023

Russia's economy is going strong despite sanctions from the U.S. and its allies.

This, in part explains why Russia has been surging in Ukraine... with even AFU sources now saying they have wide advantage in drones, ammo and troop numbers.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/17/1219882734/russias-economy-is-going-strong-despite-sanctions-from-the-u-s-and-its-allies

Russia has been hit with huge economic sanctions since it invaded Ukraine nearly two years ago. But the Russian economy has remained strong, defying many economists' expectations. We wanted to understand why that's happened, so we called Alexandra Prokopenko, a fellow at Carnegie Eurasia Center. She used to live in Moscow and advised the Russian central bank, but left the country after the invasion because of moral objections to the war. We started by asking her what she was hearing from friends and family back home about how life has changed.



https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/russias-q3-gdp-growth-confirmed-55-rosstat-2023-12-13/#:~:text=Russia's%20economy%20is%20on%20course,grew%204.9%25%20in%20the%20second.

Russia's Q3 GDP growth confirmed at 5.5% - Rosstat

MOSCOW, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Russia's gross domestic product (GDP) growth in the third quarter was confirmed on Wednesday at 5.5% compared with the same period last year, when it shrunk 3.5%, the state statistics service Rosstat said.

Russia's economy is on course to recover this year from a 2.1% drop in GDP in 2022, as the West imposed sweeping sanctions against Russia over its invasion of Ukraine.

In January-September, GDP grew 3% Rosstat said. In the first quarter of this year, GDP decreased 1.8% and grew 4.9% in the second.

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Russia's economy is going strong despite sanctions from the U.S. and its allies. (Original Post) WarGamer Dec 2023 OP
This feels suspect. Bristlecone Dec 2023 #1
Some articles out there explain more deeply... WarGamer Dec 2023 #2
We heard that Russia's economy was great for decades, then learned it was all lies. yardwork Dec 2023 #5
The sanctions have caused Russia to economically unite with China, India, Iran and other Asian nations. former9thward Dec 2023 #3
true... WarGamer Dec 2023 #4
Deliberate chaos and disruption created by sociopaths. yardwork Dec 2023 #6
Russians GDP "growth" is from 100% additional war time borrowing NPR and Reuters leave that out uponit7771 Dec 2023 #19
China and India. roamer65 Dec 2023 #7
a BIG part of it, indeed. WarGamer Dec 2023 #8
Which is it? One day it's dire news for Russia Deuxcents Dec 2023 #9
Depends on the news source... WarGamer Dec 2023 #10
I'm reading articles posted here. Deuxcents Dec 2023 #12
Perhaps war is good for the economy... Chainfire Dec 2023 #11
This is why Trump absolutely can not be reelected. I have asked this question elsewhere: ck4829 Dec 2023 #13
Don't know how true all that is, but we do know Pepsi and Hershey's are still doing business Liberal In Texas Dec 2023 #14
Keep dreaming. BannonsLiver Dec 2023 #15
It is an unsustainable war economy. JanMichael Dec 2023 #16
Article makes clear RUs economy is very fragile Kaleva Dec 2023 #17
Beneath NPR, This is a factless opinion piece not worthy of print uponit7771 Dec 2023 #18
It's a shame to contradict the OP's doomposting about Ukraine, but Foreign Policy magazine has a counterpoint: Emrys Dec 2023 #20
Trickle-down theory, Russian style? DFW Dec 2023 #21
The article clearly states it's a war economy, not a "float all boats" type of economy. WarGamer Dec 2023 #22
I'd say somewhere between juiced and fake is probably accurate. n/t DFW Dec 2023 #23

WarGamer

(18,613 posts)
2. Some articles out there explain more deeply...
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 04:59 PM
Dec 2023

It's the war footing and pumping and printing rubles into the economy...

The numbers are real... but I'd call them "juiced" if not quite "fake"...

That being said... there will be an economic hangover.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
5. We heard that Russia's economy was great for decades, then learned it was all lies.
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 05:20 PM
Dec 2023

Who knows. I'm far from an expert, but I don't trust anything Russia reports, any more than I trust data reported by Florida.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
3. The sanctions have caused Russia to economically unite with China, India, Iran and other Asian nations.
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 05:10 PM
Dec 2023

No one can mess with an economy very well when they have the backing of the #1 and #2 most populous countries.

WarGamer

(18,613 posts)
4. true...
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 05:15 PM
Dec 2023

Long ago, I warned that the worst aftermath of the Ukraine War won't be what happened on the ground in Ukraine...

The invasion by Putin and the Western reaction has done more to bifurcate the planet politically... than any other event in the last 75+ years.

Russia was moving closer to the EU, Iran was settling down, the Israelis and Saudi Arabia were shaking hands and Turkey was solidly a member of NATO.

Now you have a more rigid axis of non-US nations picking sides and aligning against the West... this has set back Global relations decades.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
6. Deliberate chaos and disruption created by sociopaths.
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 05:22 PM
Dec 2023

Can't have the world getting along. There's no black market money in that. Who would buy all the weapons.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
19. Russians GDP "growth" is from 100% additional war time borrowing NPR and Reuters leave that out
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 04:25 PM
Dec 2023

Deuxcents

(26,915 posts)
9. Which is it? One day it's dire news for Russia
Sat Dec 23, 2023, 05:31 PM
Dec 2023

And the next, they’re doing just fine. I’m getting whiplash

ck4829

(37,761 posts)
13. This is why Trump absolutely can not be reelected. I have asked this question elsewhere:
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 10:51 AM
Dec 2023

Jan 6: If Trump and his people REALLY were outfoxed by some meddling antifa kids then what hope does our country have with them at the helm when it comes to Russia or China?

Liberal In Texas

(16,270 posts)
14. Don't know how true all that is, but we do know Pepsi and Hershey's are still doing business
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 01:53 PM
Dec 2023

in Russia and paying millions in taxes to them.

JanMichael

(25,725 posts)
16. It is an unsustainable war economy.
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 02:42 PM
Dec 2023

That's said unless the west bucks up they could very well win because war economies, while not sustainable, can certainly win wars.

Ukraine cannot win a war of attrition against a country that has three or four times more people without massive amounts of ammunition like artillery shells equipment and technology from NATO countries. US and German companies also need to set up factories in Ukraine to produce this ordinance. If we do not get into a bit of a war kind of mindset Ukraine will eventually be overrun. That doesn't mean asymmetrical warfare wouldn't continue because they'll never give up.

Kaleva

(40,365 posts)
17. Article makes clear RUs economy is very fragile
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 03:34 PM
Dec 2023

"And behind is Vladimir Putin impossible trilemma for 2024, because he will need to fund the ongoing war against Ukraine, maintain the facade of business as usual for population and safeguarding the macroeconomic stability, which is quite complicated because Russia abandoned lots of institutions like budgetary rule or predictable tax system. So the situation looks solid, but it's very fragile."

And that this is a war economy.

"This growth is not what we called, you know, improving people's well-being. It's more about the state spending on war."

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/17/1219882734/russias-economy-is-going-strong-despite-sanctions-from-the-u-s-and-its-allies

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
18. Beneath NPR, This is a factless opinion piece not worthy of print
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 04:03 PM
Dec 2023

... Of course any GDP can go bonkers injected with 100% additional military spending due to war time stimulus. War time money is not usually counted because it's not sustainable.


And now CaPutin is doing very similar to Hitler and not calling on war time economy so he doesn't shake alive a partisan political Russian population even though he's injecting war time money.

It's either or,.... More male troops for the front lines or more males troops to the factories ... Without a general mobilization he's screwed in two years

Emrys

(9,100 posts)
20. It's a shame to contradict the OP's doomposting about Ukraine, but Foreign Policy magazine has a counterpoint:
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 05:21 PM
Dec 2023
Russia's Economic Fears Are an Opportunity for Ukraine

Ukraine’s current stalemate with Russia has frustrated many people, including the former’s military chief. A largely stymied counteroffensive this year gained little ground, especially as Ukraine still lacks certain technology that could help with meaningful breakthroughs. But one important aspect of the struggle against Russia has been surprisingly absent from the recent debate on how Ukraine can win.

Ukraine’s current stalemate with Russia has frustrated many people, including the former’s military chief. A largely stymied counteroffensive this year gained little ground, especially as Ukraine still lacks certain technology that could help with meaningful breakthroughs. But one important aspect of the struggle against Russia has been surprisingly absent from the recent debate on how Ukraine can win.

I’m talking about the Russian economy—and the people who hold it together, like Elvira Nabiullina, the head of the Central Bank of Russia. It’s tempting to say that Nabiullina is often overlooked because she is a woman, but then again, talented Nazi economist Hjalmar Schacht is not exactly the star of many documentaries, either. Economists may keep the wheels of a war machine greased, but because they’re not the people in snappy uniforms, it’s easier to disregard them.

As an economist, Nabiullina has a long track record of saving Russia from sanctions following Russia’s initial attack on Ukraine in 2014. Her decisions, which included inflation targeting, and, more specifically, floating the exchange rate, earned her fawning interviews with the International Monetary Fund even as her bosses continued to kill Ukrainians prior to the mass-scale 2022 invasion. She was furthermore praised as an effective communicator of Russian economic policy—thus helping prevent panic.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/11/russia-central-bank-chief-ukraine-war-ruble-value/


The whole article's worth reading for some insights into Nabiullina's skilful economic sleights of hand that have kept Russia's finances looking superficially and artificially cheery (if you don't have a subscription, you can see the whole thing by using your browser's Reader View or any equivalent it may have, but maybe slip them some bucks if you can afford it).

More long-term background to Russia's economic ills has been covered by Harvard's Davis Center, from which I'll quote just a few paragraphs:

Russia’s Economy, War in Ukraine, and Hopes for Post-Putin Liberalization
...
Putin’s attempts to build up “macroeconomic Fortress Russia,” as noted before, predated the war, but they weren’t necessarily made in preparation for war, Guriev pointed out. Instead, they fit into the Russian leader’s idea that his country must be strategically independent, without needing “to call [the] IMF and ask for permission to do something.” Hence, Putin’s policymakers prioritized a textbook version of macroeconomic stability: low debt, high currency reserves, a large sovereign wealth fund. In part for this reason, the impact of the 2014-2021 sanctions on Russian GDP “was not zero, but it was very, very small,” Guriev said.

The punitive measures initiated in 2022 were “a completely different set of tools,” leaving Russia with “more sanctions imposed on its economy than all other countries in the world combined,” according to Guriev. Yet, despite unprecedented moves like the freezing of $300 billion in Russian central bank assets, Russian coffers continued to fill up. This was due largely to high oil prices and continuing energy sales to Europe, which did not introduce oil sanctions until December of last year. Thus, 10 months after its all-out attack on Ukraine, Moscow closed out 2022 with a $230 billion trade surplus.

This is not to say that oil sanctions, once Europe’s came into effect, had no impact on Putin’s ability to finance Russia’s war against Ukraine. They affected the ruble, inflation, and, in particular, the Russian budget for the first half of 2023, when oil and gas revenues “came down by half year on year.” Circumventing the sanctions is also costly, requiring layers of intermediaries and additional expenses, like Russia’s reported fleet of environmentally dangerous “shadow tankers.”

Today, however, Russia is not running a budget deficit and Guriev believes Putin will be able to keep funding his military machine if oil sanctions aren’t tightened. Guriev noted that in the third quarter of 2023 Russia started selling oil at prices above a Western-imposed cap and the country’s planned 2024 budget “is really scary,” boosting military spending to its post-Soviet high — an estimated 6% of GDP, which Guriev contrasted with NATO’s benchmark of 2% for its own members. Russia, with its combination of petrodollars and forex reserves (including yuan), will be able to ramp up its own production of weapons and munitions, while buying what it can’t make from suppliers like Iran and North Korea and continuing to pay for intermediaries that help it evade sanctions.

In the long run, Guriev says, Putin's economy is not great, plagued by capital outflow and lack of access to modern technologies, but Russia’s revitalized repressive apparatus can easily tamp down discontent for now. Rosy GDP figures are misleading during wartime, Guriev pointed out, because they reflect ramped-up military production, which doesn’t contribute either to quality of life or to future economic growth; some indicators, in fact, suggest a grimmer economic picture for ordinary Russians — for example, a 10% drop in consumer spending in 2022. But, ultimately, diminished quality of life becomes less of a political liability when the regime openly punishes its critics with years-long prison terms.

https://daviscenter.fas.harvard.edu/insights/russias-economy-war-ukraine-and-hopes-post-putin-liberalization

DFW

(60,186 posts)
21. Trickle-down theory, Russian style?
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 06:02 PM
Dec 2023

A good friend of ours was stationed in Moscow for five years. Pre-covid and Ukraine invasion, he used to travel back there frequently to visit his girlfriend in Moscow. Both of them agreed long ago that since he spoke Russian, and she spoke not a word of German, that her moving to Germany would just be torture on her. They met over 25 years ago, but now, in her mid 70s, it's not even a point of discussion any more.

They talk once a week, and she used to visit us here in Germany when she came to see him, since he lives only half an hour away by train. My wife knows no Russian, but our friend and I do, so there was no lack of translation service.

According to what she says on the phone, and she is cautious as ever, a "talent" learned from the socialist era, things are in an awful state. She is holding down three jobs (at age 76!) to be able to eat. Her son from a previous marriage got out and has a job in Beograd, in Serbia. Apparently, Serbia has "sort of" joined the sanctions, but not entirely, and the Beograd airport is sort of a lifeline for those Russians that have gotten out, but whose families have not. There are no bank connections any more between Germany and Russia on the retail level, so our friend, who is living off a meager pension (he is 78) can't even send her a hundred or two Euros a month to help her out.

If that is an economy "going strong," then the strength is going straight from the sales of natural resources (oil, gold, diamonds and deforestation, e.g.) into military expenditures, and, as always, into the pockets of Putin and his pals. Ordinary Russians are seeing just about none of it--как всегда (as always).

WarGamer

(18,613 posts)
22. The article clearly states it's a war economy, not a "float all boats" type of economy.
Sun Dec 24, 2023, 06:06 PM
Dec 2023

And like I said above:

The numbers are "juiced" at best, if not quite "fake".

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