A Disabled Palestinian Was Carrying a Bag of Lollipops When He Was Shot by Israeli Troops

[David__77]

First there's the shocking video. A heavyset man with a cumbersome gait walks slowly toward two Israel Defense Forces soldiers. The iron gate at the checkpoint is behind him, shared taxis waiting for passengers are parked at the side of the road, he's holding a plastic bag. From his peculiar walk, with his body swaying from side to side, it's quite clear that he is a person with special needs. Not a moment passes before the soldiers shoot him in the leg at close range, without warning, for no apparent reason. The man collapses to the ground, goes into spasms, is writhing in pain and screaming and bellowing like a wounded animal. The two soldiers continue to train their weapons on him. He rolls around on the road, terrified and in agony. The person who shot the footage, most likely from a nearby building, is overheard saying, "It's Tariq the Azawi [the Gazan]."

Tariq the Gazan is Tariq Abu 'Abed, a 34-year-old man whose family is originally from Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip. Tariq roamed the streets of Hebron every day trying to sell lollipops he kept in a jar for a few pennies each. The plastic bag he held that day, Tuesday, December 5, contained the lollipops he hadn't sold. It was late afternoon, he was on his way home; the checkpoint was at the entrance to Khirbet Qalqas, a neighborhood in southern Hebron, bordering the city of Yatta.

Here's another photo, taken at the checkpoint shortly afterward: A young man is lying on his stomach, both hands bound behind his back, his legs spread, a soldier standing above him and aiming his rifle at him. The man is Tariq's brother, Ziaa, 32, a construction worker employed in Israel, who tried to come to the aid of his wounded sibling. The soldiers hit him, Ziaa relates now. They ordered him to lie on the ground, shackled his hands and kicked him in the back.

In his ponderous way, Tariq tells us that before shooting him, the soldiers had struck him too. They demanded to see his ID card, whereupon he told them that it was at home and that he passed by every day like this, on the way to work and back. The two soldiers became angry and struck Tariq, who tried to keep walking. Unable to stop him, they shot him with seemingly no hesitation.

…

https://archive.is/yKcRq

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2023-12-23/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/a-disabled-palestinian-was-carrying-a-bag-of-lollipops-when-he-was-shot-by-israeli-troops/0000018c-93d1-dfd0-a5af-fbf5d94e0000

[stopdiggin]

1. clear at the end ..

we come to the relevant information - that this man ignored/refused instructions - continued to walk on when ordered to stop.

The two soldiers became angry and struck Tariq, who tried to keep walking. Unable to stop him, they shot him with seemingly no hesitation.

Extremely unfortunate if this man is special needs - but even in routine peace time policing - special needs or not you're going to end up in trouble if you try to bull your way through an enforcement action. And regrettably - this is not routine peace time enforcement.

[Lunabell]

2. No empathy at all. No compassion.

Now, that is sad.

[OilemFirchen]

33. Actually, that poster did show empathy.

Where is there any empathy expressed for soldiers patrolling an area in which everyone is potentially a lethal threat? Are these conscripted sons and daughters somehow subhuman?

[Lunabell]

45. Another "but, what about her emails?" post.

[OilemFirchen]

49. Another deflection reply.

I asked a simple question. Are you unable to reply, or unwilling?

[Lunabell]

52. The deflection started with your post.

Whataboutism. I don't play that reindeer game.

[OilemFirchen]

56. What game, then, are you playing?

Are you concerned about a lack or compassion or not?

[Lunabell]

57. I read none.

Only a justification for another innocent casualty.

[OilemFirchen]

59. Hard to decipher that.

But pretty clear your perspective, nonetheless.

[SoFlaBro]

146. I didn't justify anything. The region is on a hair-trigger and the man didn't comply with commands in a deadly situation

He's lucky to still be alive. Soliders are trained to shoot to kill.

[Lunabell]

149. He is developmentally disabled.

Why is that so hard for you to understand his lack of a sense of danger? Have you ever worked with the developmentally disabled? Many of them would walk into an eight lane highway, full of speeding cars without proper direction! Many are as helpless as puppies and he should know about this danger? What on earth could make you think this way?

[SoFlaBro]

152. What way? I'm glad they didn't kill him. Not happy he was severely injured for certain. Hamas has fucked up the area.

[SoFlaBro]

153. I have worked with developmentally disabled.

[Cha]

105. Rec Mahalo for some Really 🕯️🕊️💙

[OilemFirchen]

120. Thanks Cha.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[Cha]

125. You're So Welcome.. and a Very

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Oilem.

[Bettie]

143. From what we've seen through this

whole situation, the people who support anything the IDF does, no matter what it is, appear believe that they are super-humans and that the Palestinians are....not human at all and thus can be killed for any reason whatsoever.

The lack of empathy toward this man is unsurprising. He's not Israeli, therefore he should feel lucky he isn't dead yet.

[OilemFirchen]

151. Huh?

Are there posters claiming that IDF soldiers are "super-humans" (sic)? Are there posters claiming that Palestinians are "not human at all"? My vision is poor, my memory is failing and I'm a bit stupid, so, if they exist, you'll have to help me find such claims.

Do you believe that IDF soldiers are deserving of empathy and/or compassion? That is, after all, the gist of what I asked.

BTW, the member who authored the post leading to this has expressed empathy toward this man several times in this thread, including in the post to which my interlocutor responded. Are you claiming otherwise?

[agingdem]

114. no it's not...this is war...

Hamas attacked Israel, methodically butchering Jews...Hamas knew damn well Israel would retaliate..Hamas knew there were would be mass casualties (martyrs&quot and they didn't give a damn...

as for empathy...how empathetic were the "good" citizens of Gaza when they rejoiced in Hamas atrocities...when they cheered and spit on the body of a raped, mutilated, naked Israeli woman they paraded in the streets of Gaza?...

[David__77]

127. I don't think the many babies who have been killed were cheering.

[agingdem]

133. but their mothers and fathers did...

Last edited Sun Dec 24, 2023, 07:49 PM - Edit history (1)

this is war...no one told the US to go easy in Afghanistan...we were attacked/we retaliated..only Israel is told to show restraint/follow the rules of war/provide humanitarian aid/a safe corridor out of Gaza/ceasefire before any fire...yes the poor babies...how about the poor Jewish babies that were beheaded or the parents forced to watch their children tortured and dismembered before they too were killed or the elderly/disabled set on fire or the massacred music festival Israelis or the kidnapped babies/children/mothers/fathers/grandparents/soldiers..

but the poor innocent Gaza babies...right

[David__77]

3. Yikes.

[Lunabell]

6. It's really sad.

I thought Democrats were better than that. A clearly special needs man with a bag of lollypops shot for probably not understanding what was going on. Just carrying out his day as usual. Shot. Because they got angry? Not because they thought he was a threat. Just disobedient. That's just plain vicious and evil.

[Johnny2X2X]

13. What the hell does this incident have to do with Democrats?

This has zero to do with Democrats.

[Lunabell]

15. Not the shooting.

The post that pretty much says this is his fault and he's just another war casualty. Paraphrased, of course. But, that's what I gathered from their response.

[Johnny2X2X]

36. And what the hell does that have to do with the Democratic Party?

President Bide and Democrats have zero to do with this, none.

[Lunabell]

44. Wow, angry much?

Have a nice day.

[Basic LA]

122. Because this is DU.

We're Democrats because we're the party of compassion & empathy for the underdogs. We don't understand the level of barbarity & bloodlust we're seeing here lately. Vengeful rage is one thing, but this is spooky already. We don't usually associate this eye-for-an-eye savagery with our side of the aisle. It's new for us here. We're liberals after all.

[Sympthsical]

135. Sometimes an underdog doesn't deserve support

Rudy would be a completely different movie if he ran around picking fights in bars, sexually assaulting classmates, and being an all around unbearable prick. He'd be an underdog, but you wouldn't be sitting there clapping. At least, one hopes not.

Empathy only works if it is unconditional. It is clearly conditional in many anti-Israel cases. Silence on October 7th. Silence on sexual assault. Silence on antisemitism.

This does not strike me as the behavior of empathetic individuals.

Performative empathy? Sure. Absolutely a thing. Finding the most emotionally punching story and characterizing it in the best way to evoke an emotional response - and only doing this if it serves narrative or political purpose?

Yes. That is performative empathy.

Doing this doesn't make someone a better person, a more moral person, or a principled person. In fact, I'd argue it makes them worse. Like parents who only love their children when the kids are doing what they want. Empathy given when it serves is not empathy at all.

That is called cynicism. And take it from a cynic - I know the shit when I see it.

People think they are helping when they are hurting, but does it matter when the object of the exercise is to only help one's image of oneself? If people cared about Palestinians, they'd have a lot to say about Hamas. But they don't. Because it's not about Palestinians. It's about ego constructed and the narrative that serves it. Savior of the Oppressed.

But, in history, saviors turn out to be devils predictably often.

[SoFlaBro]

147. Hamas is the cause of all of this fucking shit. Shit stirring terrorists and Hamas lovers love dead Palestinian children

[stopdiggin]

63. I clearly have empathy for this individual

I also think the context in which this occurred is completely understandable (even if regrettable) - and that a lot of posts (such as this) are glossing over or minimizing that context. It's a military checkpoint !!! I am so sorry that this gentleman didn't understand the situation. (although it's hard to mistake people holding automatic weapons for anything other than authority figures that must be listened to ..)

[Arazi]

69. There has to be at least one or two Israel bashing threads daily

And they must be presented context free (that this is a military checkpoint in a war zone and that Hamas has been using suicide bombers including children suicide bombers)

You must have missed the memo…

[stopdiggin]

71. my point.

we're kind of suppose to come away from this with the idea that the IDF is brutalizing mental disabled folks ...
For no particular reason at all. Just kicks and grins ...

That spin is somewhat deliberate. And that is what I object to.

Heck, I'm sorry that this poor guy got shot too! But context, people!

[NoRethugFriends]

80. And thank goodness therre are those brave enough to take on this duty.

[David__77]

128. I think the author provided pretty good context.

[Mountainguy]

150. Always posted by the same 3 or 4 posters.

[Lunabell]

78. I have worked with developmentally disabled people.

And no, they would not necessarily understand anything about rifles or military checkpoints. He probably never assessed anything dangerous as he had been doing this daily for a while. A lot of developmentally disabled folks have a set routine and have ZERO ability to deviate. Please don't blame the victim.

[stopdiggin]

85. and developmentally disadvantaged people

are going to find themselves in 'situations' due to either their lack of understanding, or failure in certain norms and behaviors. Nobody is happy that this person got himself hurt. But that doesn't mean you can just blunder your way through any kind of situation (and a military checkpoint is kind of a biggie!) with complete impunity. That's not the way things work. And particularly not in a wartime footing. Was the military to blame? Maybe somewhat - at least partially. Was the 'victim' to blame? Again, yes, at least partially.

Sorry the guy got hurt. Truly. But the narrative that there was simply no reason for this to happen ... Sorry, that doesn't work either.

[Lunabell]

87. Blunder his way?

Wow. Certain norms and behaviors? You know absolutely nothing about the neurodivergent and developmentally disabled people. You are clueless on this subject. Either clueless or unable to be empathetic at all.

[stopdiggin]

90. disadvantaged individuals

find themselves disadvantaged situations. It's unfortunate - but absolutely a fact of life.

And, yes, this man was 'blundering' his way through a situation - in which he was either out of his depth - or, alternatively, just belligerent and non-compliant. (which, as 'someone who has worked with' - you also know to be a possibility)

[Lunabell]

94. Yes.

Out of his depth and that should have been recognized by the soldiers. Especially if he did this routinely every day (as stated in the article) and they probably were familiar with him.

Regardless, showing no compassion for his situation is repugnant to me.

[malaise]

4. Plain evil

That is all

[Lunabell]

5. Yes.

Clearly special needs. Probably had no understanding of the danger he was in. And the brother? Who wouldn't try to help their special needs family member at any cost? I know I would try.

[David__77]

7. It is the same approach that led Israel's army to kill three shirtless Israelis with a white flag.

[Lunabell]

8. Or a sniper shooting at innocent women and children in a church.

They were going to church and a sniper just decided to murder two women. (Shootimg at several more church goers) 😕 And nothing will be done about it. Innocent people. On church grounds.

[madaboutharry]

32. You post this even though a simple trip to Google will reveal emphatic denials by the IDF

Basing everything to be believed on information coming from HAMAS leads to this. Over the past week, scores of news stories in which Israel emphatically denies responsibility for this have been written.
Why would you post something that can so easily be researched and found to be credibly challenged?
There are many answers to my question, each one worse than the other.

[Lunabell]

46. So, the pope's a liar now?

Ok. And the government and military never lie? Tell that to the civilian victims of Viet Nam.

[madaboutharry]

50. I did not say the Pope is a liar.

I said the IDF has emphatically denied responsibility.

Your deflective response proves my point.

[Lunabell]

51. And so, we just believe them?

Just like there were WMDs in Iraq? Just trust the government account when EVERYONE else says it is so? Do we need another Daniel Ellsberg to finally know the truth?

[stopdiggin]

68. but you are obviously buying into

somebody's narrative ... Apparently without any reservation whatsoever for 'that' side of the story. The Pope (quite evidently) was not on the scene, and merely passing on information as related to him. And yet his office renders him an unimpeachable source? But the IDF claims (from people in situ) - - all lies! And evil! There seems to be just the tiniest bit of bias playing out ...

[Lunabell]

72. You think the IDF is just going to admit to murder?

When ALL other sources say different? Nobody else, not the other congregants, not the priests, not other civilians, not the reporters on the ground, say it didn't happen, just the IDF. All other sources I have read, say it did happen. That an Israeli sniper fired into a church. Two women were killed and others injured. The only source denying this is the IDF. Hmmm...

[EX500rider]

156. Did the IDF admit to shooting the three hostages?

So apparently they will admit to "murder"

[elias7]

9. More like fear during wartime

It is indeed a terrible thing, but where Hamas is concerned, border guards will never assume anything is what it appears to be. Imagine what we’d be saying if he was let through with hidden explosives - a perfect cover. Jews are not evil, though it seems you think they are. They are trying to survive - they comprise 0.1% of the Middle East - 22 Arab Muslim countries surrounding a tiny state the size of Delaware with 7 million Jews (over half the wold’s population) and having been ethnically cleansed from every other Muslim country. But sure, if you need to call their extreme fear from recent trauma (and decades of being attacked by surrounding Arab nations and regional terror groups) and their extreme actions evil, please, continue.

[David__77]

10. Derek Chauvin-type fear

[elias7]

11. See my update. Respectfully, I thoroughly disagree.

BTW have you seen the post about the UMinnesota professor who is denying the rape of Israeli women and children while applying for a DEI position at that university? Extreme actions and promises of more terror from ideologically radicalized people make defenders of Israel sometimes do things that we might find evil out of context.

[Lunabell]

16. This is a "but, what about her emails?" post.

[Chainfire]

55. Well, Malaise, it is not so bad, he was a Palestinian, not a real person.

[Arazi]

70. Nobody on DU believes that

Nobody.

Why even put that out there about DUers? 😡

[Sal_NV]

139. Really,

Who fucking said that?
Link?

[Nixie]

17. Yes, unless I was a suicide bomber and strapped explosives

on to my body so that I can approach people or targeted buildings and blow them up, I would stop when ordered to stop.

[Oneironaut]

35. Why do people here reflexively defend EVERYTHING the IDF does?

The IDF is full of humans. There are bound to be shitty people amongst their ranks.

God damn. The, “The IDF are the good guys and Hamas are the bad guys!” Marvel-ization of this conflict is so fucking annoying. The world isn’t black and white, and, this is a complex situation that’s been going on for decades upon decades.

We need to stop rooting for either side and put an end to this conflict. Then, we can find a way to remove Hamas. Maybe it’s a pipe dream, but, this current paradigm is shit.

[Lunabell]

54. And believing the IDF is like

believing there really were WMDs in Iraq. Since when does government ever tell the whole truth? Remember the Pentagon Papers? Where's Daniel Ellsberg when you need him?

[Big Blue Marble]

64. I ask myself this question everyday I come to DU.

For god's sake, we are all human. Suffering is suffering, It cannot always be prevented,
but should never be rationalized.

[Beastly Boy]

100. Why do people here reflexively blame EVERYTHING on IDF,

even before they finish looking into the accusations?

This thread being the prime example.

Most responses blaming IDF were your standard kneejerk reactions to the fodder fed to us by the media attention whores. No critical thinking involved. Assumpion before evidence.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

102. You know the answer, we just can't say it...

[Oneironaut]

116. For the very same reason I suppose.

That and antisemitism. Also, there’s a video on the site. In my opinion, the IDF soldiers were wrong here. Shooting someone with a mental disability just because they couldn’t follow orders that a neurotypical could is also a justification US cops try to use to justify being pieces of shit.

[Jedi Guy]

103. "The IDF are the good guys and Hamas are the bad guys!"

I will absolutely agree that the IDF are not the "good guys" in the sense that they're pure as the driven snow, heroes without fault or failure. They're humans, and humans fail and make mistakes.

That said, I would very much hope we can emphatically agree that Hamas are absolutely, 100%, without question the bad guys here. They've proven that pretty conclusively, I'd think. I have nothing but contempt for them and would love to see them shuffled off this mortal coil.

[Oneironaut]

117. Yes I agree.

That is, Hamas. Not civilians.

[Big Blue Marble]

62. The real question is if he were a disabled black man in the US shot by the police,

would you be so quick to rationalize his shooting?

[Beastly Boy]

12. Here's the full video

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/mentally-disabled-man-shot-west-bank/index.html

Forget the spin, just look at it.

A man with a package in his hand refusing orders to stay down, then, instead of walking away, begins to approach an IDF soldier. No time to inquire about what's in the package or the mental state of the man. Three seconds to make a life and death decision.

If it weren't a Palestinian man and an IDF soldier, there would have been no doubt anywhere else in the world that the shooting was justified, and that stopping the man instead of killing him was the right thing to do.

Find me any law enforcement manual that would state otherwise.

Instead, we get a thread full of over the top kneejerk recriminations, as usual.

[elias7]

14. Recriminations with no ground ceded once more info presents, like the Al-Ahli hospital bombing

The hate against Israel just gets more embedded by the masterful misinformation/disinformation campaign that Hamas was counting on.

[Lunabell]

18. One can be anti-hamas and their atrocities,

and also show empathy and compassion toward innocents like the lollypop guy. He probably had no clue of the danger he was in. I have compassion and feel deeply saddened by all acts of violence against innocent people. Including the Israeli hostages and victims of Hamas on October 7th.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

61. Can one be anti-Hamas and repeat their propaganda?

[Lunabell]

73. What propaganda is that?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

74. Pretty much every news report from Gaza

You say you don’t trust the IDF. Why do you trust Hamas’ reports?

[Lunabell]

76. Who says I do?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

77. You certainly seem to defending this propaganda

How many people do you think were killed so far? Did you get those numbers from Hamas?

[Lunabell]

79. What propaganda am I defending?

Don't put words in my mouth. I only defend a developmentally disabled innocent who is another casualty of war. That is all. I am sympathetic to all victims of war and violence.

I'd like to think that regardless of your stance on this war, that you can find it in your heart to find some compassion for ALL victims.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

83. You could answer my questions first

But you won’t.
Have a nice day, I understand completely.

[Lunabell]

84. I told you, I don't do "whataboutisms"

I stick to the current topic. Whataboutisms are for others, not me.

[Arazi]

99. You don't do what aboutisms, but #48 is an entire deflection to Kyle Rittenhouse

You literally did it in this thread yourself

[Lunabell]

104. Oh, you so mad.

Merry Christmas.

Besides, I told you I won't play YOUR reindeer games, lol.

[Arazi]

107. Not mad. Just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it

[David__77]

19. I don't agree that the shooting was "the right thing to do".

[Beastly Boy]

20. The challenge still stands: find me just one law enfircement manual

that would agree with you. We are not talking about our personal preferences here. We are talking about established best practices in law enforcement.

[David__77]

21. See this.

https://post.ca.gov/Portals/0/post_docs/publications/Mental_Health.pdf

[Beastly Boy]

25. Have you read it?

This manual deals predominantly with identifying suspect behaviour and administrative procedures to be followed.

Nowhere does it suggest a course of action to identify a suspect's mental condition within the three seconds of the suspect refusing to remain still and then moving straight towards a law enforcement officer with unknown intentions.

[David__77]

26. Ah, the "Shoot-them-in-three-seconds-if-they-don't-remain-still" rule.

[Beastly Boy]

29. In the absence of a straight answer, deflect into snark.

Puts added emphasis on the absence of a straight answer.

[David__77]

30. I am not the person claiming there is such a universal protocol to shoot the mobile in three seconds.

[Beastly Boy]

34. Yo are the person who is posting irrelevant information

that fails to meet the challenge of finding a single law enforcement manual that would suggest the incident in question is not consistent with standard law enforcement procedures.

[Lunabell]

48. And I guess Kyle Rittenhouse really was in fear for his life.

Ok, gotcha. It's ok to shoot first, ask questions later.

[Beastly Boy]

91. WTF does this ridiculous deflection have to do with this thread?

You want to talk about Rittenhouse, start your own.

[Happy Hoosier]

89. Yup. It's AlWAYS (((their))) fault.

[BuddhaGirl]

31. +1

It's infuriating that some here are defending the actions of the soldiers.

But then I'm infuriated by the utter lack of compassion for Gazans by some here on this site.

[Lunabell]

98. Me too.

Too many are letting religion sway them. When do God's other chosen people get a homeland? We are ALL God's chosen. Even me, and I'm an atheist.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

108. And there it is...

Thanks for showing where you're coming from.

[Lunabell]

111. And where is that?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

112. I'm not repeating it - you said it nt

[Lunabell]

115. Said what?

That I am also a chosen person? That we ALL are? Regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual identity? Everyone deserves a homeland. A peaceful place to live live. Religion is what is dividing people. Genetically, Israelis and Palestinians are very closely related. The only difference is religious beliefs. Religion.

Marx said religion is the opiate of the people. I say it's the methamphetamine of people who use religion to divide, hate and commit violence.

I think we would all be better off without organized religion. Especially the religions that say all others aren't worthy. Christo-fascists do it. Muslims do it. Buddhists do it. Hindus do it. Jews do it. They ALL do it. I'm anti-religion. Organized religion.

[Beastly Boy]

106. Consistently disregarding Hamas' crucial role in the suffering of civilians is not compassion.

It is abuse of compassion in the service of turning a blind eye to evil.

On a certain level, it is perverse.

[Lunabell]

113. You obviously haven't read all of my posts.

I have NEVER defended hamas or their disgusting violence. Not once. Nor have I disregarded it. Violence against innocent human beings is ALL abhorrent.

[Beastly Boy]

119. It was not my intention to hold a mirror to anyone's face.

But take my comment as you wish.

[BuddhaGirl]

132. *sigh*

I don't think anyone here is turning a blind eye to the role of Hamas.

Not sure I agree with your apparent idea of compassion. Some might call it perverse.

[Beastly Boy]

134. If that is the case, it is not being reflected in their posts,

which rarely focuses on the details of Hamas' atrocities, or how Hamas facilitates and relies on the abundance of casualties among their own civilians as the central strategic objective of their military doctrine.

The latter is the supreme abomination of this war, and it is rarely, if ever, mentioned alongside all the misplaced outpouring of compassion.

I am not buying any posts that mentions the tens of thousands dead civilians without mentioning Hamas' predominant role in their deaths.

[Sal_NV]

137. Let me chime in here,

there isn't and there shouldn't be.
In all my years as a cop, I worked with numerous agencies, including the FBI, ATF, DEA, NCIS, etc and not once did I ever see anything like that with any agency.

The one thing that is glaringly apparent is that this person only posts stuff that shows Israel in a bad light, never posts anything about HAMAS terrorists using civilians as human shields, nor using civilian infrastructure, IE: schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, etc.

I watched the video and if I had a suspect stopped and he/she rapidly approached me like that, either the sidearm or the tazer would be deployed and be at the ready.

The level of naive here by some is making my brain hurt, along with my other injuries.

Happy Holidays to you and your family.

[Beastly Boy]

142. Didn't know this, but it makes perfect sense.

It is counter productive and dangerous to enfore the law by the book. Best practices, on the other hand, are based on common sense and are flexible enough to be adapted to circumstances.

Thank you.

[Sal_NV]

144. I should clarify this,

I wasn't employed by aforementioned agencies, but I was at times, assigned to various task forces with those agencies.

[Beastly Boy]

145. That would give you a hell of a lot more insight than I or the other poster have.

[David__77]

162. You think this article shows Israel in a bad light?

It doesn’t show that they acted reasonably during a time of heightened alert?

[Sal_NV]

163. It certainly doesn't show that they acted unreasonably given the situation in a time of hightened alert.

[David__77]

164. Understood.

[Sal_NV]

165. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year to you and your family.

[David__77]

166. Thank you. Merry Christmas.

[Nixie]

22. There was nothing clearly disabled about that man.

He got up easily on his own and approached them aggressively swinging a bag. The video shows something entirely different than the hand-wringing and accusatory writing.

[Oneironaut]

37. No offense, but, you need to learn more about mental disabilities.

As an autistic person, people have said the same about me as well. I’m okay until I’m not, and, that side of me is something I try my hardest to keep from the public, lest I meet the same fate as this person.

[Nixie]

41. Thank you your self disclosures here and I hope you

take care.

I think in this situation the young man should not have been in that area that is a war zone.

He was physically threatening to people with machine guns and they weren't there to assess him mentally. They were there to stop threats.

[Oneironaut]

42. .

Thanks!

[Nixie]

67. .

❤️

[Lunabell]

86. Exactly!!!

I have worked many years with developmentally disabled people. The people I worked with would have had zero concept of danger. This guy did this every day. (Selling lollipops) It was probably his daily routine. A daily routine for most neurodivergent people is what keeps them from having meltdowns. If he was also mentally challenged, then he absolutely had no ability to discern danger.

I wish folks would quit trying to put this on him. He is a victim and regardless of your stance on the war, he deserves compassion and empathy instead of blame for his lack of knowledge of wartime, soldiers, military checkpoints or automatic weapons. It's not his fault. He was carrying a fucking bag of lollipops, and was probably just trying to get home. Quit blaming this innocent victim of war.

[David__77]

101. "Hang wringing"? Wow

[Beastly Boy]

109. Well, "lying their asses off" would be a bit of an overreaction. So yeah.

[David__77]

121. The video shows the shooting quite clearly.

[Beastly Boy]

131. "Hand wringing" was obviously referring to the commentaries, which were

inconsistent with what the video shows.

And on a totally unrelated subject, were you able to find any evidence that raises suspicions of what the video shows so clearly is not consistent with standard law enforcement practices?

[Nixie]

154. Thank you. Exactly. I could have said propaganda or lies,

but you nailed it--the video doesn't match the commentary.

[Arazi]

23. Palestinians are using suicide bombers against the IDF

This is the unfortunate result.

A guy refusing to follow orders, bulked up, walking awkwardly (many suicide bombers are tranqed before they head out), carrying a bag of some sort.

Ffs, it’s a war folks. This shit is tragic and horrifying but blame Hamas for *eveyone* being in this situation

[David__77]

24. Should they use the same shooting protocols on children too?

[EX500rider]

39. Are the children suicide bombers, then yes

As part of the Arab–Israeli conflict, especially during the Second Intifada from 2000 to 2005, Palestinian militant groups used children for suicide bombings. Minors were recruited to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict was condemned by international human rights organizations.

According to Amnesty International, "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

[David__77]

123. The man who was shot was not a suicide bomber.

[EX500rider]

136. I didn't say he was

[Arazi]

47. Children have been used as suicide bombers too

However, no, obviously David.

This is entirely on Hamas for pulling this despicable shit and endangering innocent people like Tariq 😡

[moniss]

58. Is it really your contention that a less lethal means would not have been

possible? Tazer, pepper spray, rubber bullet, bean bag gun etc. are all means that would have prevented major damage to his leg. So why are the guards only fitted with lethal weapons?

[stopdiggin]

60. because it's a war? and a checkpoint with military troops rather than 'Officer Friendly'? -(nt)-

Last edited Sun Dec 24, 2023, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[moniss]

88. Hebron is in the West Bank and is not

in Gaza where the "war" actually is. Unless of course Jerusalem has now made it official to declare war on the Palestinians in the West Bank. All checkpoints have historically always been staffed with IDF soldiers as opposed to "police" and historically they have had non-lethal capabilities with them. The checkpoint in question was one used every day by hundreds of Palestinians going into Israel on work permits and for medical appointments etc.

[stopdiggin]

93. stand corrected. 'high alert' would probably be terminology than war

[gulliver]

27. His wound is preventing thousands of future wounds (and deaths)...

...on account of Hamas, the current and soon-to-be former Gaza government and military. Feel sorry for this man, sure. But it's superficial thinking, immoral, and heartless to ignore the context of the story just for a selfish "feels" hit.

[David__77]

28. I don't think this shooting saved one life or prevented one wound.

[gulliver]

38. Thanks for replying

But the overall action of regime change in Gaza is preventing thousands of future cases of human harm. It's indisputable that if Hamas is taken from the seat of power in Gaza and can no longer act as the Gazan military, then it will no longer be able to carry out its repeated threat of forever war, forever terrorism.

I don't see how anyone can shield themselves from an accusation of lack of empathy without recognizing this as a simple fact.

[EX500rider]

40. Yeah, I posted something similar last week:

Empathy can cloud reason at times

Which will be better for Gaza in the long run:

The IDF continues now until they are done and Hamas is reduced enough to no longer control Gaza
Or
A cease fire leaving Hamas to continue its attempted genocide against Israeli citizens forcing the IDF to invade & bomb Gaza every few years forever, adding up to a much greater civilian casualty count in the long run.

I don't see a option C

War is about hard choices

In WWII the allies had to prep the D-day landing areas in France with months of bombing 1st, going after rail & supply depots and bridges and crossroads etc In the end over 20,000 French civilians were killed but without the pre-invasion bombardment the landing might have failed, leaving the French under the thumb of the Nazi's for who knows how long.

Without the opening of the Western Front the Russians may not have made it to Berlin in '45 and the war could have gone on a lot longer.

On avg a million people a month died in WWII, were the 20,000 French a sad but reasonable exchange to end the war as soon as possible to save the million a month dead?

Japan had to be finished also, thus the heavy bombing of Japan which also killed many civilians but also sped up the end of the war which was killing a million people a month.

Saying "Oh no, you are killing too many French civilians! Stop!" And then the war dragging on for another year might have meant 12 million more people dying.

[gulliver]

43. Those are good points, and I agree

Thanks for the post. And keep posting it! People really need to be reminded. A position that "seems empathetic" is very, very often the opposite.

[Voltaire2]

66. Ah yes regime change has worked so well.

[Lonestarblue]

53. This is how the IDF soldiers behave toward all Palestinians in the West Bank every day.

Palestinians are forced to go through checkpoints intended to humiliate and anger them and Israeli soldiers use that s an excuse to murder them. After the last few weeks, I have no empathy left for Israel. They are the oppressor.

[stopdiggin]

65. so the checkpoints serve no purpose ?

I think that position would be rejected by most with background or knowledge

[moniss]

92. Check points do serve a purpose and

they are also places where soldiers can be abusive and corrupt towards the population. This has been true for decades in the Occupied Territories and has been true in other countries around the world as well with many of the easiest examples to cite being former Soviet bloc countries. Latin American nations, African nations, Northern Ireland etc. are all examples as well of where the soldiers staffing the check points were well known for abuses and harassment of the people moving through those check points.

[stopdiggin]

96. not making a case for checkpoints be 'pleasant' encounters

More a rejection of the idea that they serve no purpose. (other than harassment)

[David__77]

95. They allow for opportunity to shoot people, for one thing.

[stopdiggin]

97. glad we cleared that up. -(nt)-

[claudette]

82. That sounds

like terror.

[Sal_NV]

140. BS.

The checkpoints are to prevent suicide bombers from entering Israel.
Quit posting out right mis-information.

[madaboutharry]

148. Your post is a clear example of how propaganda works to block critical thinking.

You are wrong. Checkpoints do not exist for the purpose of humiliation and finding an excuse to commit murder. They are to prevent terrorists from entering into Israel whose purpose is to murder Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis.
Also, I do not think anyone here believes that up until a few weeks ago you had any empathy for Israel. I think the people here in possession of critical thinking skills are certain that you bought into the oppressor/oppressed narrative a long time ago.

[Lonestarblue]

155. I don't think David Ignatius of the Washington Post lies.

Other journalists in the past have reported the numerous Palestinians killed by the IDF and the settlers simply because they protested abusive treatment.

“For three days this past week, I traveled the West Bank, from the arid hills below Hebron in the south to the chalky heights of Nablus in the north. What I saw was a pattern of Israeli domination and occasional abuse that makes daily life a humiliation for many Palestinians — and could obstruct the peaceful future that Israelis and Palestinians both say they want.

Driving the roads of the West Bank is — forgive the term — a “two-plate” solution. Israeli settlers with yellow license plates zoom along on a well-guarded superhighway called Route 60. Palestinians with white plates navigate small, bumpy roads. Since Oct. 7, many of the entrances to their villages have often been closed. Traveling in an Israeli taxi with a Palestinian driver, I saw some of both worlds.

I watched backups at Israeli checkpoints near Bethlehem and Nablus that were over a half-mile long and could require waits of more than two hours. The delays, indignities and outright assaults on Palestinians have become a grim routine.”

https://wapo.st/47l11bO

[madaboutharry]

157. Nowhere in the Washington Post article

does it state that “ Palestinians are forced to go through checkpoints intended to humiliate and anger them and Israeli soldiers use that as an excuse to murder them.”

That is what I responded to.

You brought up a new issue by citing an article addressing the occupation of the West Bank and settler violence. It may come as a surprise that many of those who support Israel are opposed to continued occupation and the continuation of settlements in the West Bank. That is a different discussion.

[Iggo]

75. See what you're making us do?

[Silent3]

110. I support Israel in general, but I sure as hell don't support this

There seem to be some strident supporters of Israel here who think that as long as Hamas is evil enough (and it's certainly plenty evil) somehow, by some magical ethical principle I don't understand, ALL blame for ANYTHING Israel does belongs to Hamas, therefore Israel can do whatever it feels like "to defend itself", which, apparently, includes and absolutely requires shooting disable men with bags of lollipops.

[claudette]

81. 🥲

Cruelty for the world to see.

[NickB79]

118. Hamas has been hiding explosives in toy boxes, inside kindergartens

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779258

In a separate incident on the same day, personnel of the 179th Brigade Combat Team located a stockpile of weapons in a kindergarten in the Bakshi neighborhood in the center of the Gaza Strip.

They found toy boxes containing dozens of mortar bombs and RPG-type anti-tank missiles.

And have long used suicide bombers as offensive weapons against Israel. I can't imagine US soldiers haven't done exactly this in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Blame Hamas for making even the most innocuous packaging into a potential lethal weapon.

[David__77]

126. I don't think toy boxes made them shoot this man.

[NickB79]

129. If you have to worry about toy boxes holding explosives

ANY box or bag being carried becomes a potential suicide bomb. Including the bag of candy this man had in his hands.

[David__77]

130. I don't think the shooting is justified by such worry.

Of course they’ll make their own decisions. And so will people in this country. I don’t want this country to be supporting actions like that via weapons, aid, and diplomacy.

[Sal_NV]

141. What you think matters not one whit.

You weren't there, its what the soldiers perceived at the time.

[David__77]

159. Ah, so this is about experiential perception and not observable evidence?

[Sal_NV]

160. Suppose this man had been a suicide bomber?

He was approaching the soldiers at the check point when he was shot, how were the soldiers to know that he wasn't?
This happened in a time of heightened alert and the man who was shot didn't help the situation at all.

[David__77]

161. The valuation of lives is expressed in selected tactics.

For instance, Israel could have, before starting to widely bomb civilian targets in Gaza, opened multiple corridors for non-combatants to exit to areas under Israel’s control, where they could be housed and given food and medical care. This would have incurred risk, of course. The lives of people in Gaza weren’t worth it, so we stand where we do now.

And in West Bank, too, one wrong move and a mentally disabled person is shot. These are linked.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

158. Lotta bootlicking in this thread, whew