Nothing justifies this response

[malaise]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/25/israel-gaza-war-live-dozens-killed-as-israeli-strikes-on-gaza-continue-on-christmas-day


Israel-Gaza war live: Israeli airstrikes kill over 100 people in one of war’s deadliest nights, say Gaza officials
Palestinian health officials say at least 70 people were killed in the Al-Maghazi refugee camp
Full report: At least 70 killed in Israeli strike on refugee camp in central Gaza, health ministry says

[malaise]

1. N/tI mistakenly posted in the Lounge and deleted

[Pachamama]

2. [phone]

Agreed

[BComplex]

3. It looks like Netanyahu intends to just murder all the people in the occupied territories, doesn't it?

Joe Biden has known, longer than DUers have known, that Netanyahu is a war criminal. Why the people in Israel have allowed him to stay in power for so long is as distressing as if Americans allowed trump to stay in power. All those millions of protesters that wanted Netanyahu out of power when he decided to bring the Israeli judiciary under his control -- the biggest protests, they said, in the history of the world -- didn't manage to get him out of power. Still he continues.

I have a great deal of respect for Biden, and I know that his movements are often very subtle. But time and again he shows the methods of his intent, and he is usually way ahead of the rest of the world in where he is going. I so totally hope that is the case this time, because our support for Netanyahu's government at a time like this looks horrible to the rest of the civilized world.

And it makes me, personally, baffled.

[yellowdogintexas]

9. I think Netanyahu stays in power because they can't ever get one party with a true majority in Parliament

and they end up with a coalition government. With his party having the most votes, even though not a majority, he ends up as PM. That's the disadvantage of that system, however it is the only way to deal with more than 2 parties

Now I am relying on memory here so if I am wrong, will someone please tell me

[yellowdogintexas]

13. one should never underestimate Biden.

He has shown us time and again he always has a high card up his sleeve

[Rebl2]

48. Tell Netanyahu

no more money for Israel until Netanyahu is removed from office. Yes I know that won’t happen, but I wish it would happen. He is a criminal just as much as trump is.

[dutch777]

59. Biden is walking a thin line. Israel is a valued ally but is also giving us a huge black eye. Not a nice place to be

Personally I would stop monetary support to all the countries around and including Israel until such time as they sit down to a binding mediation the focus of which is a two state solution. And it would be made clear going in this will not be a carving of land just from Israel but a broader redrawing of borders and UN assured security arrangements supported by long term development funding that creates a map and a fair distribution of land and resources (water in specific) that will allow all to grow and flourish and be self determinate governments. Clearly this would need US backing and funding but $$$ should also be assured from the likes of Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries that give lip service to the Palestinian cause yet somehow won't allow many Palestinians to emigrate to their countries. Perhaps a surcharge on oil exports would be a workable long term funding mechanism. Nothing about the current situation is sustainable or eliminating what has clearly been an ever escalating cycle of episodic violence in and around Israel even if Israel somehow truly eliminates Hamas.

[choie]

81. Tell that to the thousands of Palestinians

who’ve been killed.

[Basic LA]

4. Can never be said enough.

I admire your steadfastness, my friend. You said it from the start, Nothing justifies this response.

[Duncanpup]

5. Israel been using 2000 pound bombs in air strikes

Nothing surgical about those munitions just murder and destruction.

[Magoo48]

6. I keep thinking Israel's blood lust will burn down. Wiping out the terrorists isn't even a pretense now.

[BlueMTexpat]

15. We MUST

distinguish "Israel" from Netanyahu and his cabal of warmongers.

Just as we hope that The World can distinguish us from our leaders who keep on arming those warmongers.

[rampartc]

42. and an extra "rec" for the un avatar.

these maga lunatics will lose us (and israel) a veto if trump47 "pulls out

[Happy Hoosier]

51. Sounds like a Blood Libel rant...

(((They))) are blood thirsty? Do you folks even listen to yourselves? Do you have any awareness of the Blood Libel?

[Eyeball_Kid]

53. Terrorism will never be wiped out. But children will.

Bibi is nothing but a miserable, ruthless mass murderer who has lost his sense of morality. He's killing with impunity and he has NO moral justification for the slaughter. To make matters worse, he's testing the US' alliance. And he may lose. Biden moves in the background. And I suspect that he's using back channels to warn Bibi that a foreign aid change is in the offing. The US is getting severely damaged by supporting Israel's fire power, and it gets worse by the day.

[flying_wahini]

7. When ALL the people in Gaza are all dead then Netanyahu MIGHT stop.

Maybe.

[Bettie]

56. Nah, he'll move on to the West Bank and ramp up the violence there

because the right wing settlers are his base and share his passion for eliminating Palestinians.

[claudette]

80. If the

innocent Israelis who are not for this massacre cannot stop this mad man how do they expect innocent Palestinians to stop Hamas?

[3825-87867]

8. Kind of looks like

someone wants to make sure there's another couple thousand years of hatred.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. It's not a professional army. It's using Russian Grozny tactics

Grozny:

[BComplex]

12. Oh I beg to differ! Israel has a very professional army. They know exactly what they're doing,

and they are doing it on purpose. They also have one of the world's most elite intelligence capabilities, which is curious that Netanyahu "didn't know" that Hamas was going to strike when they did on 10/7.

[Lonestarblue]

22. And why did it take hours for the UDF to respond to the October 7 attack?

I read recently that it’s a 35-minute drive from the West Bank to Gaza. Surely the IDF had soldiers stationed within half an hour from Gaza, but Hamas was in Israel for 3 hours.

[sybylla]

26. Back after 9/11 there used to be whole forums dedicated to LIHOP/MIHOP.

I think there are a couple of possible answers to your question.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. The frontline observers watching Gaza were women and so they were ignored

Professional armies do not sideline women as observers just so they could ignore them.

[SharonAnn]

36. That happened here with 9-11 where the FBi personnel and others warned but they were women, so they were ignored.

[AloeVera]

83. A lot longer actually.

Neither the army or air force showed up until late morning or early afternoon. It took a day or more after that to clear all areas.

On the other hand, Gaza's bombing began at 10:20 a.m. Less than 4 hours after the rocket attacks started.

Priorities, you know.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. They didn't know, they ignored women front observers, they shoot hostages, they overkill.

Not professional by behaviour or results.

[H2O Man]

14. Recommended.

[Bayard]

16. Hoping for this by next xmas....

[people]

17. AGREED

[yellowwoodII]

18. Glad you're speaking out.

Israel will never regain respect after this.
The thing that distresses me is that I know that much of the weaponry used against the Palestinians is bought by us.

Also, aren't Palestinians Semites?

[David__77]

23. 10,000 tons since October.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/244-us-cargo-planes-20-ships-deliver-over-10000-tons-of-military-equipment-to-israel-report/

[sop]

19. It's a land-grab masquerading as a war.

[speak easy]

20. "Palestinian health officials say ... "

That's the problem I have with these reports. Gaza Palestinian health officials are Hamas: If they are not Hamas loyalists, they do, at the very least, take their orders from Hamas. Yes we know many people are dying, but "one of war’s deadliest nights"? On Christmas Eve - who knows?

[oldsoftie]

28. Everyone ignores this fact; the reports come from Hamas.

Hamas started. this. Netanyahu MUST go when this is over. There's NO EXCUSE for the slow response to this attack.
But Hamas gets what they get. Why are almost ALL of the victims women & children? Because THATS who Hamas puts in the way.
People say "Israel just wants to take the land". No; they dont. That would be far more trouble than its worth. I expect them to start pulling out by spring. And what's left of Hamas will declare victory; like they & the others always do.
Getting rid of those tunnels will be a BIG step. and WATCH them in the future; if they start to rebuild them, bomb them.

[questionseverything]

35. Yes they want the land

There are huge natural gas fields worth millions just of Gaza’s coast

Israel will never allow the people of Gaza to develop it and gain that wealth

[oldsoftie]

40. The "people of Gaza" could have BEEN developing it.

Israel will NOT stay in Gaza once they think they've done what they can do with Hamas
Maybe some of these rich Arab nations who claim to care so much should step up & offer to provide security & services to the people of Gaza and totally get rid of Hamas? An Arab UN operation. Israel would be foolish to refuse that offer.
But they'll never offer anything close to that.

[AloeVera]

71. No, women and children are killed because they are 3/4 of the population.

Kids 14 and under make up 43% of the population. All kids make up 50%.

Israel has been bombing their apartment buildings, homes and refugee camps where they live and even schools where they shelter for safety. The bombings look indiscriminating, punitive and frankly barbaric. Which means children and women are going to die in exact proportion to their share of the population.

The "Hamas hides behind women and children" argument doesn't work anymore. There is no hiding, denying, deceiving or covering up what is going on.

You state there is no excuse for the slow response on October 7th. I wonder if you also see that there is no excuse for waging this type of "war" where civilians are slaughtered, starved, terrorized, and made into homeless refugees and not by accident or necessity but by intentional design.

[womanofthehills]

85. You say Hamas started this but in the yrs proceeding this

Israel killed way more civilians over the yrs that you seem to forget about.

Timeline: Israel’s attacks on Gaza since 2005
This is the latest assault by Israel on Gaza since the 11-day war in May 2021 killed hundreds and wounded thousands.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/7/timeline-israels-attacks-on-gaza-since-2005

[AloeVera]

87. Over 5,600 Palestinians killed in last 15 years by the IDF before this war.

In the West Bank and Gaza. Not including settler violence.

It's a horrible injustice never mentioned when assigning blame on who started this.

Nor is the fact that a modern, well-funded military with an air force attacking a population without any means of defending itself against such warfare is just plain immoral, wrong, hideous.

The immorality and injustice has been swept under the rug for 75 years. Now some light is shining but look at what cost.

[Chainfire]

32. What is you point? Is it that it is really not that bad?

Somewhere around 15,000 women and children, but to prevent a quibbling over the numbers lets say that half of that. Would that kind of number sound more reasonable to you? If someone on your block murdered a neigbor and raped his wife, is it OK to destroy the whole neigborhood, and everyone in it?

[oldsoftie]

90. Hamas is responsible. Their stated goal is total destruction of Israel.

Sorry, THEY are the biggest problem. No, Israel isnt perfect or totally innocent, but Hamas has used civilians as shields for years. Look where the tunnel entrances are; civilian areas, an amusement park, a hospital.
Why doesn't anyone from the Arab nations help the people of Gaza get RID of them & take away the IDFs reason for being there? It could be done. Why wont any of these other nations help? I give it a couple months & Israel will leave again. And what's left off haas will claim "victory". Just like they always do.
Afterwards, hopefully the people of Israel will get rid of the incompetent Netanyahu.
The cancer is Hamas.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

66. I take anything coming from Hamas with a large grain of salt

Hamas lied about the bombing of a hospital at the start of this conflict and the NYT published those lies

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[speak easy]

72. Yeah. "NYT admits error in Gaza hospital report"

The New York Times walked back its initial coverage on the explosion that killed hundreds of Palestinians at a Gaza Strip hospital last week, saying in an editors’ note that the newspaper “relied too heavily on claims” made by the Hamas militant group.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/23/gaza-hospital-new-york-times-00122986

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. It's ethnic cleansing.

It will end someday but the people defending this will always carry the stench

[Nanjeanne]

25. It is simply heartbreaking.

I appreciate your dedication to keeping caring and thoughtfulness alive on DU.

It isn’t easy. And while we all can agree on the barbaric tragedy of the Hamas terrorist attack it so saddens me to see the armchair tough guys with no stake in this shout and cheer like it’s a football game over this horrific tragedy that is unfolding now. These atrocities will do nothing to bring the hostages home or peace and security for anyone.

[Sky Jewels]

29. Israel is also harming itself in the long run

by turning itself into a pariah.

The world looks on in horror as it commits genocide and steals territory and levels Gaza.

The US MUST stop funding this ruthless carnage. I don’t want my taxpayer dollars supporting apartheid and ethnic cleansing!

When Gen Z gains enough political power, hopefully they will turn off the spigot of money and weapons flowing to Israel’s long, brutal war against Palestinians. But that’s likely years away.

Netanyahu and Likud and AIPAC can fuck off! And so can Hamas … too bad Netanyahu propped them up for so long!

[TeamProg]

30. Agreed. nt

[Skittles]

31. it is predictible the apologists will surely disagree

it all makes me sick

[Sky Jewels]

33. I've been fairly shocked by how many DUers

have been justifying literal genocide. I feel sick about it too.

[Goddessartist]

44. Yes, me too.

I had to step away...triggered a bout of PTSD.

[Happy Hoosier]

49. Because isn't "literal genocide"

Because if it is, then the US committed genocide in WWII and we very obviously didn’t

[Sky Jewels]

60. This situation isn't analogous to WWII at all IMO.

[EX500rider]

74. No, it's not, the US Air Force (with help from the RAF) killed between 800,000 & 1.6 million with bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

[Happy Hoosier]

75. Right. Many more died in WWII

Estimates are that 125,000 civilians died in Berlin during the 2 week period called “The Battle of Berlin.” And that doesn’t count the 10’s of thousands of civilians killed during the strategic bombing campaign.

My mother and grandmother lived in Berlin during that period. My mom told me things that would make your hair curl.

[AloeVera]

82. That was a terrible chapter in world history.

The UN, Geneva, Genocide Coonventions were all supposed to stop those horrors from happening again. But none of that seems to matter in this war. I know how we would feel and act if this were happening in the U.S., Europe or Israel. I don't think we would be pointing to the horrors of WWII and reciting numbers to diminish the current suffering.

I can't think why Gaza and Palestinians should be treated any differently than we would insist on being treated ourselves. Unless somehow they are viewed as less than the rest of us and we can turn away from their suffering.

[Arazi]

62. It's not a genocide and I trust Biden

I want him to win in 2024 and the rhetoric lately appears designed to tear Dems apart.

Im biding my time and in a wait and see mode. So go ahead and be sick but you don’t know every DUer. Some of us can nuance the situation instead of being (stupidly) black and white.

[Sky Jewels]

67. Oh, okay, I'm sure the few surviving family members

of the tens of thousands that have been wiped out by Netanyahu's forces will be comforted by knowing you don't consider their mass slaughter to be genocide.

[Arazi]

68. Doesn't matter what I think. It's not a genocide

Im truly sorry about the deaths in Gaza. It’s a horror but I’m going to guess that everyone who survives in a war zone is emotional and grief stricken.

There are no words of comfort that would suffice imo.

“War is hell” is trite but true 😭

[Happy Hoosier]

76. Large scale urban conflicts...

Result in many civilian casualties. The use of the term genocide is deliberately loaded. If it applies to every large scale loss of life in a war, it becomes meaningless. This is genocide:

[Richard58]

34. I totally agree!

What Israel is doing is a war crime. Too many civilians have died. I feel especially sorry for the 9,000 children who have been killed. No excuse for that! None! This war on Gaza MUST end! I want Biden to tell Netanyahu to stop. Work on a peace settlement.

[Deep State Witch]

37. Yes, But Will They Listen?

Last edited Mon Dec 25, 2023, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Biden can tell Netanyahu to stop until he's blue in the face. It's up to Bibi and his right-wing cabinet to act. While I hate to quote the WSJ, they did get one thing right - Hamas wants Israel to kill civilians in Gaza so it can use their deaths in the propaganda war.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hamass-second-stage-strategy-palestinians-gaza-civilian-casualties-israel-hamas-a63b6abc

[gopiscrap]

38. I agree

[Warpy]

39. What remains to be seen is how much support it will cost Israel

and my guess is that it will be a considerable loss of support worldwide.

Of course, I'm talking announcements like this one with a pound of salt. We won't know what's really going on until the fighting stops and the UN can get in there. Both sides are posting propaganda on Xitter and other social media.

[LeftInTX]

41. I cannot picture an end to this.

Israel has a right to defend itself. However, the situation that was created in Gaza (by both Israel and Hamas prior to Oct 7th) makes it very difficult.

A very small blockaded area in their backyard with a terrorist government. Hamas leaders are billionaires. Money is flowing in, but it's spent on massive, sophisticated tunnels and rockets. There is also no known way to prevent the flow of arms into Gaza from Egypt. Israel has itself in a pickle because it previously occupied and then disengaged from Gaza. Gaza is not a country. It's a territory of Israel, but Israel denies this, but technically it is. Gazans are refugees because they are not citizens of any country. They can't travel. They don't have passports. It's such a mess.

Israel is using too many bombs. Now they're complaining about losing soldiers. However, to get rid of Hamas, they need to complete the ground war. That is the only way they will get rid of the tunnels. There is also the issue of the tunnels under the Egypt border. If they don't close the Egypt tunnels, then all of this is for nothing.

Bombing is easier than a ground war, but it is mainly killing civilians. The IDF troops are now getting a fungus from all the sewage in Gaza. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-soldiers-dies-after-being-infected-by-dangerous-fungus-during-gaza-ground-operation/


I'm afraid they will kill all the civilians and only Hamas will survive.
It's such as mess.

[Warpy]

73. Well, that's a little oversimplified

Money was also being spent on hospitals and schools, the water system, the electrical grid, and everything else they needed to do for themselves.

It is highly instructive to look at exactly who was supplying them with arms, nearly all are Russian in origin.

The Gazans themselves said their territory had been turned into a de facto open air prison, complete with walls and guard towers, the control stricter and stricter as time went on. I once saw a list of permitted import goods and banned goods and on the banned list were "luxuries" like spices for their food--and Arab cuisine is very spicy. Years of being trapped and deprived of so many things obviously contributed to the ferocity of the attack.

I don't know how this will end, but one hopes it ends with the ouster of Netanyahu and the hard liners who kept him in power far too long, replaced by people who recognize the humanity of the Gazans and will try to act accordingly, rather than trying to pen them up like animals.

[spanone]

43. K&R

[Goddessartist]

45. K&R

Thank you, Malaise.

[Old Okie]

46. K&R

I agree.

[Happy Hoosier]

47. This line of argument is so dishonest, IMO.

You refuse to address how to actually remove Hamas. You only validate their strategy to hide behind civilians in order to remain in power.

Not say you support Hamas and also not saying Nutandyahoo isn’t a complete asshole.

But by saying “nothing justifies..” you are in fact saying that you are willing to let the murderous assholes of Hamas to remain in power.

I also note that you are conspicuously absent from the threads noting Hamas’ refusal to engage in meaningful ceasefire talks. Where’s your outrage? Why aren’t you calling for their immediate surrender, arrest, and trial for the Oct 7 atrocities?

I don’t expect a reply, you being DU celebrity and all, and me being a nobody, but I hope you’ll at least consider this point of view.

[BannonsLiver]

50. Wait

No performative “that is all”?

[LaMouffette]

52. I am haunted by the recent story of the 17-day-old Palestinian baby girl who was killed in Gaza. And she is just one

of the thousands of innocent children and women and men who have been massacred.

Everyone is saying that Israel has the right to defend itself. But if a bully finally gets punched in the nose by a weaker person whom the bully had been mistreating for years, does the bully have the right to turn around and KILL that person, along with that person's family, friends, and neighbors and take away their homes and the homes of everyone else in the entire region?

I condemn Hamas's atrocities against Israeli citizens on October 7. That should never have occurred and must never occur again. But reading about the creation of Israel by the colonialist power Great Britain, who essentially "gifted" Palestine to the Zionists in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration, makes me question the superior moral stance that Israel and Israel's supporters are taking.

Much like our own history of seizing land from the indigenous people who had already been here for thousands of years, Palestine was not some empty frontier, free for the taking by the colonialists, and the later giving to the Zionists.


Anyway, what I think should happen is an immediate ceasefire AND an immediate about-face in Israel's treatment of Palestinians. No more settlements. No more forced segregation of Palestinians into Gaza and the West Bank. Full integration and full citizenship and full voting rights for Palestinians.

So. I hope I don't get labeled an anti-Semite for this posting. If this helps, in high school, I dated a newly arrived Palestinian immigrant boy, and in college I dated a Jewish boy. They were both lovely, wonderful, incredibly bright individuals (and super-cute, to boot!). I am on the side of the innocent Palestinians and Israelis.

I just want this carnage to end, like all of us do.

[malaise]

54. +1,000

Expect the oppressed to eventually fight back.
That is all

[Arazi]

64. Like the Vietnamese? Or residents of Dresden? The Japanese?

Or are you so racist that only the Gaza Palestinians are assumed to be murderous revenge jihadis?

Tell me how many rampages the Tutsis have launched against their oppressors since their actual attempted genocide. I'll wait 🤔

(Pssst, the residents of Gaza should turn their rage against Hamas - that would be more understandable)

[Calculating]

69. Fight back by committing horrible acts of butchery, rape and sexual mutilation

Nothing could ever justify what Hamas did on the 7th. That isn't how you fight back, it's just evil.

[TheKentuckian]

88. Another Death to Israel rant with all the Soviet era

and genocidal Arab sponsors of terrorism colonial bullshit.

Two state is the best possible offer.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. I'm saying the same thing

About the "I won't vote unless" crowd among American citizens.

Surely as a fellow American who descends from enslaved people and Jim Crow survivors - you can understand the precarious and dangerous position Hamas (In Gaza) and Gazan supporters (here at home) have put the traditional "Other in America" in should a second Trump administration occur?

You are with us - aren't you?

[NotVeryImportant]

57. This has always been that Israeli yahoo's plans folks.

We could tell from their initial response.

They want all Palestinians eliminated.

And most Israeli's are w/him.

There's simply no denying this.

[malaise]

58. Sadly that appears to be the truth

I weep for humanity

[NotVeryImportant]

61. The GOOD news is that

Practically the entire world see's Israel for what they currently are.

Knows that they're being propped up by the USA predominantly.

And a growing number of Americans are coming to this conclusion as well.

It cannot continue this way for very much longer.

[David__77]

63. Unfortunately, opinion itself cannot stop a war.

I hope things turn around.

[gulliver]

65. It is the better moral response than leaving Hamas in existence

There is no good, easy answer. All of the emotionally easy answers are wrong.

[claudette]

79. Better?

🥲

[Calculating]

70. Hamas can always surrender to face justice and release the hostages

I think they actually want their people slaughtered though to make Israel look bad.

[Silent3]

86. Of course Hamas wants that.

Which is all the more reason that Israel should aim to reduce civilian casualties, and thus NOT give Hamas want it clearly wants.

[ForgedCrank]

77. I agree.

The solution is to eliminate Hamas by any means necessary so a response like this is never again required.

[claudette]

78. 🥲

Cruel terrorism

[leftstreet]

84. DURec

[TheKentuckian]

89. What response would be justified in your eyes?

Pro state sponsored terrorism, pro theocracy, anti western civilization mularkey.