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Donkees

(33,678 posts)
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 05:58 AM Dec 2023

NYT: Where Was the Israeli Military on Oct. 7?

By Adam Goldman, Ronen Bergman, Mark Mazzetti, Natan Odenheimer, Alexander Cardia, Ainara Tiefenthäler and Sheera Frenkel
The journalists reported from Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and towns and kibbutzim in southern Israel.

Dec. 30, 2023, 12:01 a.m. ET

The full reasons behind the military’s slow response may take months to understand. The government has promised an inquiry. But a New York Times investigation found that Israel’s military was undermanned, out of position and so poorly organized that soldiers communicated in impromptu WhatsApp groups and relied on social media posts for targeting information. Commandos rushed into battle armed only for brief combat. Helicopter pilots were ordered to look to news reports and Telegram channels to choose targets.

And perhaps most damning: The Israel Defense Forces did not even have a plan to respond to a large-scale Hamas attack on Israeli soil, according to current and former soldiers and officers. If such a plan existed on a shelf somewhere, the soldiers said, no one had trained on it and nobody followed it. The soldiers that day made it up as they went along.

“In practice, there wasn’t the right defensive preparation, no practice, and no equipping and building strength for such an operation,” said Yom Tov Samia, a major general in the Israeli reserves and former head of the military’s Southern Command.

“There was no defense plan for a surprise attack such as the kind we have seen on Oct. 7,” said Amir Avivi, a brigadier general in the reserves and a former deputy commander of the Gaza Division, which is responsible for protecting the region.

That lack of preparation is at odds with a founding principle of Israeli military doctrine. From the days of David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister and defense minister, the goal was to always be on the offensive — to anticipate attacks and fight battles in enemy territory.

The Times investigation is based on internal Israeli government documents and a review of the military’s cache of materials, known as Pandora, that contains tens of thousands of videos, including footage from body cameras worn by terrorists and closed-circuit surveillance cameras. The Times interviewed dozens of officers, enlisted troops and eyewitnesses, some of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about military operations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/30/world/middleeast/israeli-military-hamas-failures.html
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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NYT: Where Was the Israeli Military on Oct. 7? (Original Post) Donkees Dec 2023 OP
Colossal failure. And Netanyahu is still in charge WHY? brush Dec 2023 #1
''Many soldiers, though, were allowed to keep sleeping.'' Donkees Dec 2023 #2
Horrendous. Why has Israel left Netanyahu in charge? Has there been a worse intel/governmental... brush Dec 2023 #3
A failure...how? Demsrule86 Dec 2023 #12
So am I reading you right? You think Bibi is complicit in this whole... brush Dec 2023 #36
Hope you saw Frontline on PBS two weeks ago Deminpenn Dec 2023 #4
Here's link: PBS/Frontline Netanyahu, America & the Road to War in Gaza RestoreAmerica2020 Dec 2023 #5
Intel blackout for more than 14 minutes?!?! Still more questions than answers uponit7771 Dec 2023 #6
Bin Laden determined to attack US told to Shrub a month before 9/11 and we re-ELECTED him AZLD4Candidate Dec 2023 #7
And then Bush went on to commit war crimes against Iraqis, Sky Jewels Dec 2023 #30
Netanyahu belongs in prison. dalton99a Dec 2023 #8
"At Dawn We Slept - The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor" - Gordon W. Prange paleotn Dec 2023 #9
The PNACers, including Dick Cheney, WANTED a "Pearl Harbor-like" event Sky Jewels Dec 2023 #32
Failed to remember the lessons from the 1973 surprise attack on Israel,. SharonAnn Dec 2023 #10
Interesting that pilots were told to look to Telegram channels. David__77 Dec 2023 #11
And an unlikely source for information: Donkees Dec 2023 #14
Authoritarians make poor military strategists. yardwork Dec 2023 #13
Not all of them dsc Dec 2023 #37
Bonaparte attacked Russia, so there's that. yardwork Dec 2023 #38
Is it just me or am I noticing a pattern here? tornado34jh Dec 2023 #15
Hamas militants trained for its deadly attack in plain sight and less than a mile from Israel's heavily fortified border Donkees Dec 2023 #16
So how then did they get the weapons? I don't believe that by itself Gaza would have gotten all the weapons tornado34jh Dec 2023 #24
''How does Hamas get its weapons? A mix of improvisation, resourcefulness and a key overseas benefactor'' Donkees Dec 2023 #27
So if assuming that the tunnels went all the way to say Lebanon 116 miles away tornado34jh Dec 2023 #35
There have been many articles from dozens of sources about Israel's disregard of warnings. The why Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #17
When someone hates you enough edisdead Dec 2023 #20
Exactly. They planned for more than a year. They are not a ragtag group but a highly trained terrorist Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #21
LIHOP purr-rat beauty Dec 2023 #18
Plus the undeveloped Gaza Gas Field Donkees Dec 2023 #19
Did you just say that Israel has equal blame for what happened on 10/7? egduj Dec 2023 #22
Pisspoor leadership -- of course blame the terrorists, but... Bucky Dec 2023 #23
There's still an assumption certain armies are immune to colossal fuck ups and blunders. Oneironaut Dec 2023 #25
That's one possibility. Sky Jewels Dec 2023 #33
The more I see, and the more I read, it just seems like an intentional letdown by the Netanyahu government. patphil Dec 2023 #26
I agree. Sky Jewels Dec 2023 #34
Tonight protests are happening - hundreds outside Netanyahu's residence and thousands in Tel Aviv re hostages. Nanjeanne Dec 2023 #28
Photos: Eyal Yafeh, a Yom Kippur War veteran, said: "We are the Yom Kippur fighters who faced the blunder of 1973 ... Donkees Dec 2023 #31
i thought i read on du that the Israelies knew that this attack was comming a year in advance ? AllaN01Bear Dec 2023 #29

Donkees

(33,678 posts)
2. ''Many soldiers, though, were allowed to keep sleeping.''
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 06:20 AM
Dec 2023
The assault on the Re’im military base left soldiers there fighting for their lives rather than coordinating a response to the invasion.

Many soldiers, though, were allowed to keep sleeping. One told The Times that some did not know they were under attack until Hamas was in their sleeping quarters. Several were killed in their bunks. Others barricaded themselves in safe rooms.

The scope of the catastrophe, if not the attack itself, was preventable, according to records and interviews.
 

brush

(61,033 posts)
3. Horrendous. Why has Israel left Netanyahu in charge? Has there been a worse intel/governmental...
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 06:32 AM
Dec 2023

failure in the nation's history?

Bibi needs to be kicked to the curb and tried for corruption. Israel can do better than him, who now is asking Putin, our enemy, for help.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
12. A failure...how?
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 11:13 AM
Dec 2023

Bibi supported Hamas via Arab countries...was this wag the dog? You have to wonder. How could everything fail at the same time?

Driving across the broadest part of Israel, meanwhile, from its northernmost point to its southernmost tip, takes less than six hours. There’s barely a need for a bathroom break.

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
36. So am I reading you right? You think Bibi is complicit in this whole...
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 04:07 PM
Dec 2023

thing and wanted it to happen? If so I have ask again, why is he still in charge in Israel? Also that explains why the IDF response took hours and hours.

The nation shouldn't put up with him and his complicity, as well as his corruption.

And now he's communicating with Putin, our enemy, for help.

Is there any morality to the man, any loyalty to his own nation and the US, his, until now, his country's main ally and backer?

Things are changing and moving so fast, who knows what will result? A wider war seems likely.













Deminpenn

(17,475 posts)
4. Hope you saw Frontline on PBS two weeks ago
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 06:55 AM
Dec 2023

It did a great show on how Netanyahu came to power, how Hamas came to rule Gaza, the role the US played in all of it. The show finished with interviews of an IDF soldier assigned to monitor the fence and the fromer IDF head of fence security on how Hamas was able to breach the border fence.

RestoreAmerica2020

(3,471 posts)
5. Here's link: PBS/Frontline Netanyahu, America & the Road to War in Gaza
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 07:38 AM
Dec 2023
As the war in Gaza continues with devastating consequences, a major 90-minute documentary offers a sweeping examination of the critical moments and missteps that led to this crisis over the course of the past three decades, and the pivotal role of a central player: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Aired: 12/19/23 PBS/Frontline

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.pbs.org/video/netanyahu-america-the-road-to-war-in-gaza-ahopeh/

AZLD4Candidate

(6,766 posts)
7. Bin Laden determined to attack US told to Shrub a month before 9/11 and we re-ELECTED him
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 08:50 AM
Dec 2023

We failed our people too and rewarded those that failed with four more years of failure.

Not excusing, but showing it's a pattern. Authoritarians know how to manipulate.

 

Sky Jewels

(9,148 posts)
30. And then Bush went on to commit war crimes against Iraqis,
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 03:26 PM
Dec 2023

just as Netanyahu is doing to Gazans.

paleotn

(22,179 posts)
9. "At Dawn We Slept - The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor" - Gordon W. Prange
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 10:18 AM
Dec 2023

We've been there too. Sept. 11, 2001, we still hadn't learned. Without near constant threat, organizations we rely on for our national safety can naturally become complacent and sloppy. Their vigilance loses its intensity. They become ossified, slow to react and arrogant until.......

 

Sky Jewels

(9,148 posts)
32. The PNACers, including Dick Cheney, WANTED a "Pearl Harbor-like" event
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 03:31 PM
Dec 2023

to give them an excuse to start a very profitable (for corporate neocons) war, and they got it. The lack of military response on 9-11 makes more sense in the context of LIHOP.

I think we’ll soon conclude that a similar scenario played out on Oct. 7th. Netanyahu likely wanted an excuse to go scorched earth on Gazans, and he got it.

SharonAnn

(14,171 posts)
10. Failed to remember the lessons from the 1973 surprise attack on Israel,.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 10:18 AM
Dec 2023

Too much energy on internal political battles re-Netanyahu. Failure to live up to government’s responsibility to “protect and defend”.

David__77

(24,661 posts)
11. Interesting that pilots were told to look to Telegram channels.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 10:52 AM
Dec 2023

I wonder if they were told to look to pro-Israel channels or other channels.

Donkees

(33,678 posts)
14. And an unlikely source for information:
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 11:37 AM
Dec 2023
With communication out of Re’im disrupted and military leaders in Tel Aviv struggling to understand the scope of the attack, Maglan turned to an unlikely source for information: Refael Hayun, a 40-year-old who lived with his parents in Netivot, about five miles from Gaza.

Mr. Hayun watched Hamas videos of the attack in real time on social media and relayed information to Maglan’s officers. He began fielding WhatsApp messages from people trying to save their children, friends and themselves.

“Hi Refael, we’re stuck in a trash container near the party location,” one message read. “Please come rescue us. We’re 16 people.”

Mr. Hayun relayed those locations to the commandos, but they did not grasp the enormity of the fight. One Maglan team killed several terrorists near a base in Zikim, just north of Gaza, but they didn’t realize until 11 a.m. that Hamas fighters had stormed Kfar Aza, where some of the worst fighting took place.

Soldiers crowdsourced information. One team commander told soldiers aboard a helicopter to check Telegram channels and news reports to pick targets.

One general, a reservist who fought that day, said there were many heroes on Oct. 7. But an army only needs heroes, he said, when things have gone wrong.



Refael Hayun in his bedroom in Netivot, Israel

yardwork

(69,307 posts)
13. Authoritarians make poor military strategists.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 11:21 AM
Dec 2023

We're still arguing over whether 9/11 was sheer incompetence or something else. I used to question it because how could any administration be that incompetent. I've come to see that this incompetence is common among authoritarians. They don't prepare.

dsc

(53,386 posts)
37. Not all of them
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 08:15 PM
Dec 2023

Caesar and Bonaparte were both military geniuses of the first order as well as rather authoritarian. Of course you have Hitler and Stalin to name two who were quite the opposite.

tornado34jh

(1,527 posts)
15. Is it just me or am I noticing a pattern here?
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 11:54 AM
Dec 2023

Whether it is 9/11, Boston bombing, the Mumbai attacks, or the attacks in Israel on October 7th, doesn't it seem like all of them are the result of intelligence failures? In regards to the October 7th attacks, yes, Hamas obviously is responsible, but people should be questioning why the Israeli government was so unprepared despite them supposedly knowing about this for some time. Sounds to me that the intelligence services need to explain why they didn't act upon it. As I have said before, quite frankly, Hamas took advantage of all the missed opportunities, just as the Tsarnev brothers and the Saudi Arabian terrorists did. I get it is hard to know if somebody will become one, as we're not mind readers, but I suspect that Hamas had done training outside of Palestine, and I also believe that Hamas has members outside of Palestine.

Donkees

(33,678 posts)
16. Hamas militants trained for its deadly attack in plain sight and less than a mile from Israel's heavily fortified border
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 12:00 PM
Dec 2023
The footage is from the last two years, but it is chillingly prescient. In a December 2022 video, Hamas fighters can be seen flooding a training area, shooting rockets and capturing pretend prisoners as they surround mock Israeli buildings.

The camp, CNN analysis shows, had just been constructed, and was very close to Erez Crossing, the pedestrian passageway between Gaza and Israel that Hamas fighters ultimately breached last weekend in a bloody attack which killed over 1,200 people in Israel.

Another video taken more than a year ago, shows Hamas fighters practicing take-offs, landings and assaults with paragliders – the same unusual assault mode that Hamas deployed with lethal effect in the same Oct. 7 attack.

A CNN investigation has analysed almost two years of training and propaganda video released by Hamas and its affiliates to reveal the months of preparations that went into last week’s attack, finding that militants trained for the onslaught in at least six sites across Gaza.


https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/hamas-training-site-gaza-israel-intl/index.html

tornado34jh

(1,527 posts)
24. So how then did they get the weapons? I don't believe that by itself Gaza would have gotten all the weapons
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:56 PM
Dec 2023

Unless Egypt is supplying them weapons, which I have not heard of any indication, I don't believe they would have gotten weapons in Gaza alone. Gaza is 23 miles from the West Bank at its closest point, it is 60 miles from Jordan (at least in areas not near the Dead Sea), 115 miles from Syria, and 116 miles from Lebanon. They would have needed to get weapons from outside of the Gaza Strip, also, if Iran and Qatar are supporting them, I would think they would have had some sort of training outside of Gaza. Yes, Gaza is 25 miles across from southwest to northeast, and there is mountainous terrain, but I don't think they would have been this prepared without outside help, because they have done this before.

Donkees

(33,678 posts)
27. ''How does Hamas get its weapons? A mix of improvisation, resourcefulness and a key overseas benefactor''
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 02:33 PM
Dec 2023
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/middleeast/hamas-weaponry-gaza-israel-palestine-unrest-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

“Hamas has received arms from Iran smuggled into the (Gaza) Strip via tunnels. This often included longer-range systems,” said Daniel Byman, a senior fellow with the Transnational Threats Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

“Iran has also been shipping Hamas its more advanced … ballistic missiles via sea, in components for construction in Gaza,” said Charles Lister, senior fellow at the MEI.

“Iran also helped Hamas with its indigenous manufacturing, enabling Hamas to create its own arsenals,” said Byman at the CSIS.

A senior Hamas official based in Lebanon gave details of the Hamas’ weapons manufacturing in an edited interview with Russia Today’s Arabic-news channel RTArabic published on their website on Sunday.

“We have local factories for everything, for rockets with ranges of 250 km, for 160 km, 80km, and 10 km. We have factories for mortars and their shells. … We have factories for Kalashnikovs (rifles) and their bullets. We’re manufacturing the bullets with permission from the Russians. We’re building it in Gaza,” Ali Baraka, head of Hamas National Relations Abroad, is quoted as saying.

tornado34jh

(1,527 posts)
35. So if assuming that the tunnels went all the way to say Lebanon 116 miles away
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 04:00 PM
Dec 2023

Then I would think Hamas therefore has members outside of Palestine, and therefore, could possibly have training elsewhere even if the staging area was in Gaza. If not that and it went into Egypt, then they would have to find a way to cross the Gulf of Aqaba into Jordan or Saudi Arabia. There is no land crossing from Egypt to Jordan that doesn't go through Israel outside of that. But then again, I guess they could have trained in the extreme rural areas of the Sinai Peninsula. I just don't believe that if it was known for at least a year that they were planning something like this, that Israel or anybody with significant intelligence systems would not have done something about it. You really have to question what information Israel was getting or basing it on. In other words, there was some breakdown in communication.

Nanjeanne

(6,574 posts)
17. There have been many articles from dozens of sources about Israel's disregard of warnings. The why
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 12:06 PM
Dec 2023

this happened will be the story for a long time once information is exposed and analyzed. Arrogance, incompetence, disbelief, deliberate? Time will eventually tell us.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
20. When someone hates you enough
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 12:41 PM
Dec 2023

When someone hates you enough and they plan and strategize for it every single day, eventually they are going to cause you harm.

Maybe bibi let them through, maybe they are just ineffective leaders. I don’t know. Any of that can be true. What I do know is that Hamas planned, trained, and decided to do this.

Nanjeanne

(6,574 posts)
21. Exactly. They planned for more than a year. They are not a ragtag group but a highly trained terrorist
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:04 PM
Dec 2023

group. Why Netanyahu has consistently downplayed that and pretended otherwise will be analyzed for years to come.

purr-rat beauty

(1,237 posts)
18. LIHOP
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 12:06 PM
Dec 2023

Letting
It
Happen
On
Purpose

To boost support of a major military offensive to commit what could amount to genocide under the veil of self defense while gaining more land as they squeeze and kill their way into GAZA.

Bibi's willy was in a legal bind and I'm sure Israel has been eyeing some prime real estate in GAZA.
It is known the intelligence was shared and ignored.
Personnel in Bibi's cabinet have expressed notions of eliminating Palestine.
IDF and HAMAS are complicit in the initial mass attack and ensuing massacre.

egduj

(881 posts)
22. Did you just say that Israel has equal blame for what happened on 10/7?
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:42 PM
Dec 2023

The women , children, men who were raped and tortured and killed, children put in ovens, beheaded, and who knows what else, have equal responsibility to what happened to them?

Bucky

(55,334 posts)
23. Pisspoor leadership -- of course blame the terrorists, but...
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:48 PM
Dec 2023

Terrorists are going to terrorize. This isn't "news" about Hamas. Netanyahu had the responsibility to protect his people (instead of multiplying his enemies) but instead he devoted all his attention to hijacking the judiciary.

Oneironaut

(6,288 posts)
25. There's still an assumption certain armies are immune to colossal fuck ups and blunders.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 01:59 PM
Dec 2023

Arrogance leads to complacency, which leads to disaster. The US has the same attitude, that our army is full of super soldiers. Humans are humans, and fragile.

Israel seemed to have become complacent, just like we are now. They got bit, and, we’re next.

 

Sky Jewels

(9,148 posts)
33. That's one possibility.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 03:53 PM
Dec 2023

The other possibility, that makes more sense for both 9-11 and Oct. 7, in my opinion, is the ignored warnings/LIHOP scenario, which gave the poohbahs (Cheney/Bush et al and Netanyahu et al) an excuse to go all-in on war.

patphil

(9,028 posts)
26. The more I see, and the more I read, it just seems like an intentional letdown by the Netanyahu government.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 02:32 PM
Dec 2023

I hate to say that, but it wouldn't be the first time a country's government allowed an attack to serve their own purposes.
That said, I don't believe the Israeli government realized how brutal/bestial Hamas would be.
I'm pretty sure the truth will come out over time. If it's as I suspect, there's going to be hell to pay in the Israeli government and military.

Nanjeanne

(6,574 posts)
28. Tonight protests are happening - hundreds outside Netanyahu's residence and thousands in Tel Aviv re hostages.
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 02:46 PM
Dec 2023
Hundreds gathered outside Prime Minister Netanyahu's private residence in Caesarea, calling for his ouster now. The protesters held signs with a bloody hand print in the middle of the word "Guilty". They beat drums and chanted for Netanyahu to "be removed now."

"Guilty, guilty guilty! How much longer do we have to pay for his deeds? We all know he is guilty, guilty, guilty! Remove him now!


And thousands in support of hostage families in Tel Aviv (my family texted me that this is one of the largest yet).



Donkees

(33,678 posts)
31. Photos: Eyal Yafeh, a Yom Kippur War veteran, said: "We are the Yom Kippur fighters who faced the blunder of 1973 ...
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 03:27 PM
Dec 2023

... and we will fight for our country to recover from the blunder of 2023."



---


Rally in solidarity of the Israeli hostages held captive in Gaza, on Saturday night in Tel Aviv.Credit: Hadas Parush



https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-30/ty-article-live/israel-strikes-in-syria-lebanon-after-rockets-target-north-idf-widens-south-gaza-combat/0000018c-b8de-d45c-a98e-bbde04ed0000

AllaN01Bear

(29,409 posts)
29. i thought i read on du that the Israelies knew that this attack was comming a year in advance ?
Sat Dec 30, 2023, 03:06 PM
Dec 2023

i dunno

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