Hamas' brutality is unpardonable

[TexasDem69]

A recent post was locked because it didn’t cite a reputable news source. Here’s a largely identical story from the NY Times about the October 7 attacks and Hamas’ brutality. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

An excerpt:

“The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.

The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.”

There is no negotiating with rabid animals. They are hostis humanis generi, enemies of all mankind.

[Calculating]

1. Exactly

Calling Hamas animals is an insult to animals. What they did could be described as sick to the core and demonically evil. IMO they're the absolute scum of the earth and need to all be ruthlessly stomped out. No mercy for monsters.

[marble falls]

2. The brutality on both sides is off the chart unpardonable.

[TexasDem69]

3. I haven't seen any stories about the IDF

Capturing a woman and driving nails into her legs and groin prior to murdering her. Perhaps I missed it?

[Beakybird]

5. Yes, where are the stories of IDF raping women and chopping off men's penises?

An unacceptable civilian death count in Gaza? Absolutely. But it is urban warfare with a terrorist group using it's population as human shields.

[Cha]

6. Rec TY.

[claudette]

10. However

There have been many stories of thousands of children killed by bombs being dropped by IDF. Both are brutality. Are you saying the terrorism by Hamas justifies terrorism by their foe? I say both are cruel.

[former9thward]

11. We killed hundreds of thousands of children in WW II by bombs.

Should the U.S. be accused of brutality?

[Orrex]

22. Hell yes we should be, but IMO that comparison isn't very solid

WWII was a fairly symmetrical war between major national powers, and the weaponry of the time had little ability to yield precision attacks.

I think that Fallujah is a better comparison, where we waged a very lopsided campaign that resulted in horrifying civilian injuries and deaths.

[AZLD4Candidate]

29. As long as the sides are "equal," killing civilians is okay? Nice logic

[Orrex]

33. I'd like you to point out who the fuck said that, exactly.

Because if you're going to make up bothsider bullshit and credit it to me, then it's clear that you have nothing to say in the discussion.

I might as readily reframe your position as "Israel can kill as many innocent civilians as it wants, because the US has done bad shit too."

But I'll ask you outright: at what point will Israel have gone too far in this campaign? Or do they have carte blanche to kill without accountability, as long as we do some hand-waving about "human shields" and "they were told to evacuate?"

[AZLD4Candidate]

34. WWII was a fairly symmetrical war between major national powers, and the weaponry of the time had little ability to yiel

you did.

[Orrex]

39. Could you repeat the part where you pretend I said that killing civilians is ok?

In large-scale symmetrical warfare with 80-year-old weaponry, civilian deaths are often unavoidable, but they're never ok.

Is that clear enough for you? Or are you going to continue to make up bullshit?

[AZLD4Candidate]

42. 3% of the world's population was killed during WW2 using those weapons.

But that's okay, I guess. It wasn't Israel doing it.

[Orrex]

43. If that's your opinion, then go ahead and own it

But stop making up bullshit and claiming that it's my view. Point out where I said--anywhere online in the past 40+ years--that killing civilians is ok.

The TOS frowns upon calling another DUer a liar, but I can't help noting the repeated outright falsehoods in your replies to me and elsewhere.

[Chainfire]

145. Who thinks that it was OK then?

[TheKentuckian]

209. OK is irrelevant. What is necessary is what matters.

I think there were quite enough American and allied soldiers killed and maimed not to even mention 10 million victims of systemic murder and actual, no bones genocide and however many more caught up with less purpose in Europe alone.

The absolute defeat of the Axis powers was the only possible path to anything resembling OK, even with the advantage of hindsight.

[Chainfire]

227. The big problem with your argument is that you suggest that the bombing decided the war.

The war was won by boots on the ground, not bombs falling from the sky.

The strategic bombing campaigns were a failure. The theory was that bombing could end the war, it couldn't and it didn't. Production continued to increase in Germany up to the time the the Russians were knocking on the door, so it did not knock out the industry as was the stated goal. Usually, the bombing was done on the wrong targets, and then, most of the bombs missed their intended targets. When the Brits bombed at night, the only target big enough to hit was a city, so they bombed city centers.

The terror aspect of the bombing was also a failure in Germany as it was in London, and for the same reason; it brought the population together, it didn't terrorize them into demanding surrender. When we nuked Japan, they were already looking for a way out, they were ready to negotiate a surrender if it left the emperor intact, and they ended up with that anyway. The old, "It saved a million American lives", was simply bullshit; a justification for using those expensive new toys. Had we not used the bombs, post war Americans would have wanted to hang everyone involved in the Manhatten Project for the gross waste of resources.

The terror bombing of city centers and the civilian population was a crime, then and now. We don't recognize it as a war crime becuse we won. Attempts to justify Israel bombing civilians, in a terror campaign, by whatabouting the WWII bombing is really a silly, grasping at straws, argument in the defence of an unjustifiable crime. Make no mistake, Israel is making war on Palestinians, if members of Hamas are killed in the process, so much the better.

[TheKentuckian]

255. It was won by both. Attrition and disruption were significant factors

for the "boots" to do their part.

Tell Mr. Roarke and Tattoo that I said hi.

[Chainfire]

256. There was little attrition or disruption. There was, however, a lot of civilian deaths.

It wasn't worth the effort. Spaatz and Harris thought that wars could be won from the air. They were wrong. They mainly killed a lot of innocent people and aircrews. Tacitcal bombing, on the other hand was effective, and it was used against military instead of civilian targets. (for the most part)

[Happy Hoosier]

49. Weird flex...

The measure of something being justified or not is NOT whether or not the enemy can be equally effective at killing people. The gola of a war is not equal casualties.

The civilian casualties in Gaza are a direct result of a strategy by Hamas to protect themselves by necessitating massive civilian casualties to effectively neutralize Hamas. That doesn’t remove Israel’s responsibility to limit civilian casualties as must as is practical, but it does mean that Hamas bears a heavy burden of responsibility for deliberately embedding themselves within the civilian infrastructure

[Orrex]

52. It wasn't a flex, merely a statement about an ugly reality

And your brief post is one of the best articulations I've seen on the subject.

Some cry "human shields!" and leave it at that, but of course it's not that simple. Nor is it as simple as saying that Palestinians voted for Hamas.

You've spelled out the problem very effectively and very concisely.

[RocRizzo55]

54. Absolutely n.t.

[former9thward]

61. Happy people like you were not in charge of war planning in WW II.

[RocRizzo55]

155. More whataboutism.

Please spare me.

[claudette]

57. What

would you call killing so many innocents?

[Hekate]

99. I would call it a god-damned shame that terrorists would mine an entire city, creating a city under a city

…like some evil species of mole-men, in order to use the humans above them as shields.

Squawking and wringing hands and clutching pearls because the humans have hospitals and schools and all kinds of city infrastructure up in the sunlight does not negate the fact that the evil mole-men operate underneath them and they know it.

What is Israel supposed to do? Kidnap the innocent children before bombing? I can just see the outcry over that maneuver.

God damn it.

[former9thward]

154. War.

As it was in WW II. The U.S. is not a pacifist nation. Neither is Israel.

[Chainfire]

144. Of course we should. It was not right then and it is not right now.

[Beakybird]

13. This is true. But Israel isn't trying to kill children. They're trying to kill terrorists. That's a big distinction.

Hamas tried to kill children. That was one of the purposes of their raid. Israel has an unacceptably cavalier attitude towards civilian casualties, but this is after the biggest civilian loss in the country's history.

[womanofthehills]

19. but but - so how do you kill 10,000 kids & injure 25,000 without trying? You have to be really incompetent or a

a psychopath.

In the US, would we bomb and kill all the kids in a high school because a terrorist might be in the basement? Looks like US KIDS lives are way more important than Palestine kids lives. It's definitely genocidal to bomb UN schools, hospitals, homes, ambulances - kill doctors, journalist, aid workers. How about starving 2 million people? Is Israel NOT trying to starve the innocents?

Guess you haven't been over on TicToc or Twitter and viewed the thousands of horrific videos of children suffering horribly.

[AZLD4Candidate]

31. Hamas uses them as human shields. Why not attack Hamas for doing that?

[claudette]

59. Not those who

are dying from hunger or illness from the filth of unclean surroundings

[ripcord]

64. Actually they are

If Hamas would surrender all kinds of aid would flow into Gaza.

[claudette]

66. Not sure

who you are but I think NOTHING justifies the brutality being waged against innocent Palestinians. Nothing more to say to you. Bye

[AZLD4Candidate]

69. 1400 on october 7th is just collatarel damage? they were innocent too.

[claudette]

70. No

That’s not what I said. It was terrorism. And what Israel is doing to innocent Palestinians fills them with terror. How many dead innocents in Gaza will avenge it?

[AZLD4Candidate]

73. Hamas uses innocents as human shields. How many innodent Japanese had to be killed for Pearl Harbor?

We were attacked. . .Israel was attacked.

Hamas started this. . .and has refused ceasefires and broken one already with a terrorist attack at a bus stop that killed four and injured five.

[claudette]

74. They used

20,000 innocents as shields? Nothing justifies such a brutal response that is still going on. bye

[The Magistrate]

75. Calling It A Response, Ma'am, Gives The Game Away

Because we both know that not one bomb would have been dropped on Gaza over these past weeks, not one person there killed or maimed, save for the spree of sadistic rape and murder Hamas indulged itself in on October 7.

What you asking for is a mass outbreak of sainthood, simultaneous with perfect execution of military operations. This is not going to happen. We are left in a situation where one party deliberately goaded the other into a rage, and now cries that the armed forces of the people they tortured and killed are over-reacting to the horrors they committed. That party has stated explicitly it intends to repeat the outrages in future at every opportunity. I've yet to hear anyone who disapproves what Israel is doing suggest a practical alternative it might pursue to liquidate Hamas and neutralize this threat.


"Do unto others 'fore they do unto you."

[AlexSFCA]

135. how else do you eliminate hamas?

We support Israel’s goal and their brilliant IDF (likely best armed forces in the world) to eliminate hamas once and for all.

[SoFlaBro]

171. "Brutal response"? Israel shouldn't hand wring while kitchen-made rockets rain down. They get to end the barrage quickly

[DemocraticPatriot]

97. How many babies in Gaza "refused ceasefires" ?

I suppose that all the dead ones did not respond....


Personally, I do not defend some of the things that my country did, to "win" World War II....


and very recently, I learned about our 'plan' to subdue Japan (prior to the Atomic bomb)---

Our invasion 'plan' included dropping poison gas on the 25 largest Japanese cities---
which no other combatents had used in that war, as far as history seems to show....


The knowledge of what we were prepared to do, sickened me...

[AZLD4Candidate]

102. How many of the 1400 killed 10/7 were military or government targets?

[DemocraticPatriot]

106. Very few, I'm sure....

So how many women and children must die in Gaza to make this situation "right"?
or is there no limit to the number??

So far, it is 1400 (as you say, I thought the number was 1200 on Oct. 7)

vs. 20,000
(let's say 13,000 women and children, as it is claimed that they are 2/3s of the casualties)

Two wrongs, or 1200 or 1400 or 20,000, do not make a "right".

I despise HAMAS, and I despise what Israel is doing in Gaza.
How people die makes no difference in the end, they are just as dead---

but I presume that many of the women and children who were killed in Gaza by Israeli bombs,
did not necessarily die 'right away'--- likely many of them suffered for many minutes or even hours,
buried underneath the rubble..... Is that not "torture" as brutal as what HAMAS did ?


There is a huge difference in the number of casualties here,
and the number of casualties in Gaza is mostly civilian....

And after 3 months, I have yet to see any IDF claim about how many Hamas militants they have killed,
out of that huge number...

[sheshe2]

119. But...

How people die makes no difference in the end, they are just as dead---

but I presume that many of the women and children who were killed in Gaza by Israeli bombs,
did not necessarily die 'right away'--- likely many of them suffered for many minutes or even hours,
buried underneath the rubble..... Is that not "torture" as brutal as what HAMAS did ?

But I presume that the women and children that were gang raped, nails driven in their bodies, shot in the vaginas did not die right away, they suffered extraordinary pain. Nor did the women and children raped, bound together by wire and then set on fire. Nor did the babies that were thrown in ovens and burnt, that caused extraordinary pain and suffering for the child and parents that had to watch!!!!!

[Richard D]

156. The number is . . .

As of December 29, IDF spokesperson Major Doron Spielman provided an updated number of 8,000 Hamas fighters killed since the conflict in Gaza so far, "based on intelligence, the interrogations of captives as well as satellite photos".

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/global-affairs/around-8000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-says-idf-spokesman/video/1bc009f0e121da67ff8671cebe72c1e0

[AloeVera]

166. In other words, they don't actually know. N/T

[TeamProg]

232. Your view of history is in error. The US threatened Japan to get out of SE Asia

or we were going to go to war with them. THEN that attacked Pearl Harbor.

[kelly1mm]

159. If Hamas would surrender, turn over the planners/perpetrators of the 10/7 attacks,

and flee to Qatar (or some other country that will take them) the fighting would be over and within 24 hours massive amounts of aid would begin to be delivered to the Palestinians. That is my preferred endgame.

Israel (rightly in my view) will not stop the military action unless/until Hamas is eliminated as a viable force. If Hamas surrenders as above and Israel does not immediately end military action I will join those that are currently accusing Israel of war crimes. But not until then ....

Hamas seems hellbent on dragging the Palestinian people down with them by refusing to surrender and continuing to use the population as human shields and props for their social media propaganda war. So sad really ....

[Richard D]

170. Consider a strong theory:

1. Hamas prepared for the Oct 7 attack for many years, including building over 300 miles of tunnels under Gaza.
2. They also acquired armaments from Iran and put them underground and in locations like schools, civilian homes, and hospitals.
3. Hamas terrorists are directed by the Hamas leaders to attack Israel on Oct 7. To make this as great an atrocity as possible, the terrorists were given methamphetamine drugs to make them berserkers. They were also instructed to rape and torture, especially women and children, and rewarded for doing so. They did this with great glee, even bragging to their parents and families about all the Jews they killed.
4. Hamas leaders knew and planned for Israel to counterattack with great force. They did this knowing that many thousands of innocent Palestinians would lose their lives. This was their goal, and the more dead civilians, the better.
5. Hamas leaders knew that this would turn much of the world against Israel. But they made it clear that was to be the first of many attacks, so Israel had no choice but to continue the war or face continued Oct 7 and worse assaults, murders, tortures, rapes, and kidnappings by Hamas.
6. Hamas leaders had ready a very sophisticated PR campaign to make Israel look like the bad guys. This was to create "Useful Idiots," primarily in the global West, who would unthinkingly support Hamas, even considering them to be “freedom fighters." This worked extremely well, especially on college campuses.
7. The term “Useful Idiot” refers to sincere and good people who are brainwashed into believing falsehoods and acting on them. In this case, they are the useful idiots of the Hamas leadership.
8. This is creating a wave of global antisemitism. This was also a goal of Hamas.
9. Those who feel sorry for the civilians of Gaza are enrolled in donating money for the children and civilians of Gaza since Gazans need money and other aid because of the war Hamas started.
10. Sincere and well-meaning Useful Idiots send money to organizations to support the people of Gaza.
11. Little of any of that money gets to Gaza civilians. Instead, it goes to increasing weaponry for the war and, most importantly and disgustingly, leaves Gaza to end up in the pockets of the three already multi-billionaire leaders of Hamas, who between them are worth 11 billion dollars (or eleven thousand million dollars).
12. They lived in palatial homes in Qatar (not Gaza). All have their own private jets. All are happy to create more Palestinian martyrs as long as they themselves are not martyrs and as long as it helps them get more money.
13. The eleven billion dollars the three rats (apologies to rats everywhere) have between them will grow exponentially. Especially after the world forces a cease-fire, thus allowing Hamas to regroup, strengthen, and attack again.
14. Please return to #1 so the heads of Hamas will collect even more money on the blood of Gazans.

[elias7]

235. Hamas uses the deaths to serve up endless tiktok and twitter memes, reducing the struggle to bully vs victim

Hamas uses constant terror and bombing to force the blockade of Gaza, then blames Israel for creating a prison.

They have used words as weapons - Prior to 1964, there was no real use of the term Palestinian. Certainly the more recent appropriation of words from other contexts, chosen more for their evocative nature than for their accuracy - terms like colonization, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing - have mobilized many young idealists into a pro-Palestinian stance

Unless people realize that they are played by Hamas, that it is and always has been about Jew hatred for them, a hatred that allows people to drive nails into women's vaginas, slice the penises off of men. Mutilating their genitals while they are alive. That behavior is inhuman and can only exist because of deep hatred. That behavior cannot be bothsided by a response to such terror, regardless how you quantify it.

[question everything]

35. The question is why you and others here cannot respect our sorrow and mourning and have to

inject your hateful comments.

There are many here who start new threads about innocent civilians used as human shield in Gaza.

Please, start your own thread and not hijack ours.

Can you do this?

And BTW it is TikTok if you want to mention sources.

[stopdiggin]

56. actually - the OP highlighted Hamas brutality

and then a number of posters quickly trotted out the 'whataboutisms'.
so I'm not sure if it's accurate to claim 'hijacking' of the thread

[GuppyGal]

111. "Guess you haven't been over on TicToc or Twitter and viewed the thousands of horrific videos" and there you have it

folks

[oldsoftie]

77. Ridiculous comparison. WW2 was 80yrs ago; war was fought differently.

Unless you're Russia; who STILL fights war that way. Blow up everything & kill everyone.
Yes there have been "stories" of 1000s of children being killed. They are just that; STORIES. Hamas is the source of these stories; where are the THOUSANDS of bodies?
Israel showed everyone the bodies from the Hamas attack

[claudette]

83. You

actually want to see the bodies as proof? It wasn’t only Hamas that reported the numbers. It was the UN and rescuers. Bye

[oldsoftie]

86. The UN reported 1000s of dead children? Hamas is in charge of what info comes out of Gaza.

Regardless of WHO is there. And Hamas always attacks from civilian areas, knowing that a response will kill civilians. They commit war crimes every day doing this.
Maybe the Arab nations who care SO deeply about the situation should offer to step in and put a stop to the attacks by Hamas; then Israel would have no excuse for continuing their operations.
Yet NONE of them offer ANYTHING. even some being the richest countries in the world.
But keep blaming Israel

[AloeVera]

175. The death-toll is likely way under-counted.

Are you seriously questioning that thousands of children have been killed? Please look at pictures of the physical destruction in Gaza. Find out how dropping thousands of JDAMS and unguided 2000 lb. dumb bombs is going to impact a highly populated area.

And no, Israel did not show all the bodies. Perhaps their names, though I believe not a full list last time I looked.

Did you know that in the previous wars on Gaza, Hamas reported casualties then too? Their numbers were later determined to be pretty accurate. But I venture to say that their numbers now are under-counts, if anything. Why? First, because they don't include those buried under the rubble and now dead. About a month ago or more, that stood at 7,000. Also, with the forced closing of most hospitals, there is not only nowhere to take the dead (and the unfortunate injured), those hospitals are no longer reporting the death toll. Then there is the communications black-out which also impacts reporting. There could be thousands killed in the North in the last few weeks and we wouldn't know and neither do the remaining hospitals or Hamas.

[oldsoftie]

190. I'm sure the numbers are high, but ALL deaths are on Hamas

And ALL reporting is controlled by them. ALL of the deaths are on the hands of Hamas because none of this would be going on if they hadn't started it. And they still send rockets into Israel every day, so its obvious that THEY DONT CARE
Israel is having to clear 100s of miles of well built tunnels. Thats a MUST. Hamas could end all of this today if they actually cared about their people. They use them as shields; its been proven 1000 times. But its always ISRAEL who is supposed to stop.
So why dont any of the rich Arab nations offer to help? Why dont they go to Gaza & help get rid of Hamas (who initially were elected BY the people)? Why dont they offer refuge to ANYONE? Why dont they tell Hamas to stop attacking Israel? Iran is behind all of this & these other nations dont like Iran; so why NOT do something?
Stop attacking Israel & pledging to destroy it & there will be peace. When your stated goal is the total destruction of Israel & death to ALL Jews, this is what you get.

[EX500rider]

82. Maybe the Gazan's should pay heed when told to move for their safety

The IDF warned Gazan civilians for several weeks before the launch of its major ground operation in October to evacuate themselves from northern Gaza, and placed 70,000 phone calls, sent 13 million text messages, left 14 million voice messages, and dropped 7 million leaflets urging civilians to evacuate temporarily for their safety and informing them about humanitarian pauses and precise evacuation routes.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-itll-defend-itself-from-gaza-genocide-claims-in-the-hague-next-week/

[AloeVera]

162. That kind of "evacuation" forced by Israel is illegal in the first place.

See international law.

Warnings have to be effective and result in civilians being kept from harm. Simply telling them to flee in the middle of intense bombing, without providing enough time and a safe way to get there (as was done for weeks before bowing to U.S. pressure and providing the bare minimum) is simply a cover-your-ass move at best. At worst, its real intent is to cause panic and terror among the population. There also needs to be a safe place to go to, with adequate housing and access to food, water and medical care. This is the obligation of the party ordering the evacuation, according to international humanitarian law.

By the time sufficient time and pauses in bombing were provided, many Gazans has already decided to stay rather than risk dangerous journeys to the south that also was being bombed. Many also were elderly, sick, disabled or simply too terrified to leave.

Declaring that any civilians that stayed will be treated as enemy combatants is also illegal. Civilians remain civilians, with the rights to all protections afforded to them under law, regardless of what Israel declares.

The "evacuation" of the North really amounts to forced displacement of its population, yet another war crime in a litany of war crimes.

The kicker and the special cruelty is the mirroring of the Naqba etched into the collective memory of the people, which could not have escaped the attention of Israel. Also a fundamental reason why hundreds of thousands of people did not leave.

Let's see now if the "evacuation" turns out to be temporary as promised.

[womanofthehills]

211. Hello - where is it safe?

They told them to move South where the most horrific bombing has been.

[Richard D]

21. You forgot . . .

. . . gang-raping her.

[DemocraticPatriot]

47. A baby in Palestine is just as dead from a 2000 pound bomb dropped by Israel....

Is Hamas totally inhuman and deserving of death? YES, THEY ARE....


Please explain that to the dead baby in Palestine who had nothing to do with it.

I am sure that will make them feel better.

[Abolishinist]

117. For those who are true believers in the tenets of the Quran,

Last edited Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:52 AM - Edit history (2)

is it possible that the death of a child, while tragic in the moment, could ultimately be a good thing?

[iemanja]

122. Your post is over the line

You should delete it.

[Abolishinist]

124. I beg your pardon?

Which line, exactly, would that be?

Perhaps they believe, or maybe they are of the opinion that there are multiple belief systems out there, and one is free to choose. Regardless, I would say that certain things follow this line of thinking, which is where I was going with this.

[iemanja]

168. The version you since edited

So obviously you knew it was a problem. You responded to the poster's concern about the deaths of children this way: "Are you a true believer in the tenants of the Quran?" Evidently you think only Muslims can care about Palestinian children's lives, and you thought implying the poster was a Muslim was a way to discredit them.

[Abolishinist]

172. No, the only problem I realized after your response is that because of my poorly worded

post, my intent could very well be misinterpreted. I was merely attempting to engage the OP in further discussion, not implying they were Muslim.

The edited version is more to the point. I'm certainly no religious scholar, but there are many sources with the same conclusion as the following:

My wife was pregnant with twins and on the day the babies were due, her waters broke, so she went to the doctor who told her that one of the twins had died shortly before because he had drunk some of the water in which he was swimming in the uterus. She went to the hospital and had a Caesarean in order to save the other twin, who was born alive, praise be to Allah.

I want to ask about the twin who died. How will he be raised on the Day of Resurrection? Will he be raised like us as a young man or what?.

Answer

Praise be to Allah.
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the fate of Muslim children -- if they die after the soul has been breathed in and before reaching puberty -- is Paradise, as an honour from Allah, may He be exalted, to them and their parents and as a mercy from Him, Whose mercy encompasses all things.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/117432/ages-of-children-who-die-in-childhood-when-they-enter-paradise

So if one is a true believer, they would know that a child who dies before puberty (why is it always puberty, I ask?) gets a free pass. Now, if I were a parent who believed this, and my pre-pubescent child passed on, I would of course be sad. On the other hand, knowing that my child would live over one hundred trillion years would give me not only comfort, but would encourage me to live a life that would allow me to join them upon my passing.

And Islam, of course, is not the only religion that has similar views on the demise of a child.

[iemanja]

173. Does that mean Israel's killing children is okay in your view?

Is that your point?

Christians believe in heaven too. That doesn't mean we don't care if our kids are killed.

[TheKentuckian]

239. If a soulless motherfucker has so little value for his own

children as to hide behind them and dare a response to their depravity they killed their own child and certainly have no standing to demand I sacrifice mine to protect his.

You can pray to Jesus but you best get to talking to Hamas.
For bonus points you can throw your own on the alter to their children and see if that satisfies.

[kelly1mm]

160. The post I originally responded to was in turn responding

Last edited Sun Jan 7, 2024, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)

to an edited post. I only saw the edited version which was not what the post I responded to was referencing. I agree that the unedited version was, at least close to the line.

[iemanja]

167. Did you read the unedited version?

The one they since deleted and replaced with something else?

It's an adhominem, and a religious/ethnic based one at that. Because the other poster has the temerity to disagree about the value of children's lives and the various causes of their deaths, this poster suggests they must be Muslim, because no one else could possibly care about the lives of Palestinian children--as though that position were inherently religion based.

[kelly1mm]

247. I do see it now and I agree it is close to. if not crossing the line. I will edit my post. nt

[Mossfern]

164. For the gazillionth time

If those Hamas terrorists hadn't performed abominations upon innocent babies, women, children, elders just minding their own business, that poor little Gazan baby would still be alive and happy.

[RocRizzo55]

53. Because none of the mainstream media

Last edited Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

In the US will publish it, for fear of upsetting Zionists. They are also afraid of offending the AIPAC run Congress, along with the other corporate bribers who are also for war.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

76. Ah, there we go...

Let's bust out the protocols for the latest talking points!

[The Revolution]

96. Yup

We must force the Gentile governments to adopt measures which will promote our broadly conceived plan already approaching its triumphal goal, by bringing to bear the pressure of stimulated public opinion, which has in reality been organized by us with the help of the so-called ‘great power’ of the Press. With few exceptions not worth considering, it is already in our hands

[egduj]

140. Is this a "Jews control the media" post?

[RocRizzo55]

143. NO!!!!!

NOT ONE BIT!!!

It's more a corporate and lobbyist controlled media. It just so happens that AIPAC and the Military Industrial Complex (MIC) both own a lot of the media. Sorry if I forgot to include that. AIPAC is a lobbyist group that has their money in the pockets of a majority of Congress and Senate, of both parties. The MIC corporations also own a lot of congress critters. Not only does their corporate bribery go into the members of the legislative body, but they have outlets in each and every state. Be that making the weapons of destruction, which go to other countries, but the jobs of many folks.
It is truly disgusting what the mainstream media has become.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

149. Oh we know who AIPAC is

And who comprise the organization.

[TheKentuckian]

222. It absolutely was. It is amazing how reflexively the vile tropes come.

What's the next rabbit out of the hat? Space lasers to murder baby Jesus for money?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

230. We've already gotten "killed Jesus"

Remember the nativity crèches buried under rubble and the “Jesus was a Palestinian” bullshit.
I wonder if the space lasers originated from Iron Dome.

[DemocraticPatriot]

219. That's because instead they blew her into a million pieces with a 2000 pound bomb.

It's more efficient and economically effective that way. Kudos to the IDF---
they can kill much faster and in vastly larger numbers, than Hamas...


I suppose she is "less dead" because they did not torture her "up close and personal"?


That is what those of you who go on and on about Hamas tortures seem to be arguing---

that somehow the death of an Israel who was tortured, is more important than the death
of a Palestinian woman or baby who was blown to pieces by an Israeli bomb...

It is somewhat reminiscent of those in this country,
who are more outraged by the death of a white person,
than that of an African-American who was shot in the back with a dozen bullets
while fleeing from 'the police'....

[NickB79]

8. That didn't take long

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Never does.

I wonder why certain (((victims))) are ignored or "whatabouted" immediately upon a story coming out. What could it be?!

[Chainfire]

146. What I love is all of the what about WWII bombings.

[TheKentuckian]

9. Bothsiderism is a rhetorical tool of the most wicked

employed when their side or one supported and adjacent is no longer defensible and so they turn all efforts to bringing the other down to their level.

You know good and well such heinous barbary must be put down and the capacity for a repeat destroyed.
That is the only sane response.

[Bucky]

120. Mentioning the consequences of the IDF's indiscriminate bombing is not "bothsiderism"

Obviously Hamas's barbaric behaviors, policies, and goals are horrendous and far worse than what Israel is doing.

Hamas directly targeted civilians for mass murder. Their goal was to trigger Israel into overreacting so it would be further isolated in the diplomatic world.

Israel is simply disregarding the inevitable and predictable fact of mass collateral casualties as an indirect consequence of their massive urban bombing campaign. The effect of this is to help Hamas achieve its goal.

[TheKentuckian]

189. Heads they win, tails Israel loses.

Increased diplomatic isolation or impunity for Hamas?

Protect the citizens and figure the rest out later.

[Bucky]

205. There's ways to fight Hamas that don't involve leveling apartment buildings and killing thousands of innocent people

Last edited Sun Jan 7, 2024, 04:28 PM - Edit history (2)

One would be not letting their guard down, as the Netanyahu government did, against a dangerous nihilistic terror organization or not ignoring the warnings that came from Egypt's intelligence service that the attack was being planned

Another would be following the Biden administration's advice and go directly at Hamas leaders and financers (which after 2 months of slaughter in Gaza, Israel finally did in killing Yaniya Sinwar* in Lebanon this week -- see correction below--). There's also the actual leader of Hamas in Qatar, Ismail Haniyeh, but you'll note Israel hasn't gone after him. For Lord knows what reason, Israel won't risk hurting Qatari collaterals but Gazans remain anybody's punching bag.

The US would support any other pathway toward punishing Hamas: isolating Hamas, sanctioning individuals like we have with pro-invasion Russian oligarchs, disrupting their resources and communications. We've already put Haniyeh on a list of terrorists and would gladly support pulling him out of the equation. Israel should try to cut a deal with his rival, Marwan Barghouti, and deprive him of his protected status. Biden's own campaign staff have stood up and said we have to have a different approach in Gaza -- that the killing has gone on too long. It's destroying Israel's position in the world with a clear generational divide that bodes poorly for Israel's support in the future.

Saying it's a matter of "Increased diplomatic isolation or impunity for Hamas" is a bullshit dichotomy. There's ways to fight terrorism that don't involve becoming barely indistinguishable from terrorists. Did we learn nothing from Abu Ghraib?

==============

*Correction: You last week Israeli drones targeted and killed Hamas's deputy chief Saleh al-Arouri, not current Hamas leader in Gaza Yaniya Sinwar.

[TheKentuckian]

210. Most of those methods are being employed but do little

to address the clear and present.

War on Qatar, Iran, and Syria seems counter to your general gist and I'm pretty sure we are full court pressing for all possible restraint on expanding but suspect almost as strongly that all options remain on the table.

Despite our instant gratification mentality, it is probably quite early in this one.

The capacity to execute further attacks must be destroyed while degrading and systemically deconstructing the support chain that fosters it and would engender future such capability with a new label slapped on.

It isn't an either/or proposition.

Both are mandatory as is whatever accountability, reform, and serious and honest investigations into the security failures and any possible otherwise propping up of Hamas for political purposes.

[LeftInTX]

233. Israel did not kill Sinwar! It was some other Hamas dude in Lebanon (Sorry can't remember his name)

I don't know how your link was edited, (it is from Oct 10th) but Sinwar's whereabouts are unknown. He is believed to be hiding in Gaza's tunnels, but who knows? Sinwar also could have escaped and could be hiding in another country.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar

[Bucky]

238. Ok thanks. It was their deputy chief Saleh al-Arouri

I didn't remember his name either, so I looked it up too fast. I'll fix that. Thanks for the correction

[former9thward]

12. More bothsidersome.

An attempt to deflect and it doesn't fly. Everyone knows it.

[AZLD4Candidate]

17. Both sider-ism is as hollow an argument as what about-ism.

[Orrex]

23. Even so, is there a point where we stop blaming Hamas for Israel's actions?

How many tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths will be enough?

Is any response disproportionate? Or does the campaign continue until everyone in Gaza is dead?

[AZLD4Candidate]

27. Yeah. . .Israel asked to be attacked on October 7th. It's their fault and they deserved it

They elected Hamas as their government. And Hamas uses them as human shields.

I guess Israel is to blame for everything. But my people have been the cause of every ill in the world for centuries.

[Orrex]

37. I'd like you to point out who the fuck said that, exactly.

I'd also like you to tell us about the many electoral choices that Palestinians enjoy as alternatives to Hamas.

I've read everything you've posted in this thread, and much of what you've posted elsewhere. You demonstrate a consistent inability to discuss the subject reasonably, and you imply that everyone who disagrees with you is a Hamas sympathizer.

For the record, I'd like to see every member of that murderous Hamas terrorist organization executed for crimes against humanity.

However, I am not willing to justify the wholesale slaughter of innocent Palestinians in order to achieve that end.


Your next reply will determine if there's any point in further discussion with you.

[question everything]

65. After Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2006 they had elections

Hamas won the majority and then started a campaign of terror against Fatah.

I regret that I cannot find the report, from a Human Rights organization.

Few Gazans that on occasions tried to protest have been arrested and tortured.

In the West Bank, elections were “planned” for many years and have been delayed again and again.

It is hard, therefore, to talk about Palestinian elections.

[TeamProg]

44. A beautiful example of deflection.

[DemocraticPatriot]

50. BOTH SIDES are to blame for TOO MANY Dead Babies...

and both sides are guilty of too much "whataboutism"

[EX500rider]

109. "Or does the campaign continue until everyone in Gaza is dead?"

The IDF goes on till there are no more Hamas to kill or capture.
That is their goal, not civilian casualties, if the wanted those they wouldn't have done this:

The IDF warned Gazan civilians for several weeks before the launch of its major ground operation in October to evacuate themselves from northern Gaza, and placed 70,000 phone calls, sent 13 million text messages, left 14 million voice messages, and dropped 7 million leaflets urging civilians to evacuate temporarily for their safety and informing them about humanitarian pauses and precise evacuation routes.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-itll-defend-itself-from-gaza-genocide-claims-in-the-hague-next-week/

And the number of dead civilians is a unknown, Hamas said they count all dead Hamas members as civilians, and as they issue all the casualties lists the numbers must be super true cause you can trust those guys and they have no reason to lie, right?

And here some will jump in to argue the point, I am suggesting there may be less dead civilians, is that not a good thing?

[Orrex]

113. Suggesting that there may be less dead civilians isn't necessarily a good thing

Unless there are, in fact, less dead civilians.

And can we please acknowledge that "evacuation warnings" are meaningless when there are effectively no safe places to evacuate to, and no safe ways to get there? Can the "precise evacuation routes" in fact accommodate the number of panicked people trying to use them to flee in the time allowed?

Before someone once again accuses me of being pro-Hamas, I'd like to underscore my desire that every member of Hamas be rounded up and tried as a terrorist.

[TheKentuckian]

174. When Hamas has been obliterated and can no longer be a threat.

That is the only accounting that makes any difference.

What other plausible answer is it?

This isn't a math question. The numbers are not relevant to the absolutely mandatory endgame, it as as few as possible but as many as it takes.

[Orrex]

181. Just to be clear:

If your "as few as possible" scenario requires the deaths of every Palestinian civilian in order to destroy Hamas, would that be acceptable?

This strikes me as eerily reminiscent of W's "War on Terror" which, by design, can never achieve its stated objective.


A reminder to A Certain Person (explicitly not TheKentuckian) who likes to imply that other DUers are Hamas-sympathizers: I abhor Hamas and want every last member of that horrific terrorist group killed or caught and subjected to the full punishment allowed by international law, but I'm not willing to write off the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians in order to achieve that end.

[TheKentuckian]

194. I didn't mince words. I said as many as it takes and as few as possible.

The other course on the menu also known as allowing for continued attacks, a repeat, or risk further escalation is completely and utterly off the table and it is complete chaotic evil nonsense to pretend such is remotely acceptable.

Not never. No way. No how.

I don't even begin to understand what anyone sees as a rational possibility. A situation where state actors are rewarded immunity if they are willing to stoop low enough is in no way tenable. Civilization at large will collapse under that strained thought process.

Acquiescing, placating, accepting, and eventually surrendering to these tactics is suicidal.

Further, you're right.

TheKentuckian doesn't imply there are Hamas supporters and a fuck ton of apologists for them. There are antisemitic folks. There are Death to Israel gang members.There are useful idiots for Putin, theocracy, the Republican white nationalist crime syndicate and domestic terrorist organization that would aid and abet bring fascism to power in our nation.

It is my position that such is evident and incontrovertible.

Supporting an environment that Hamas can only thrive in is being pro Hamas regardless of motivations or intent otherwise.

Helping to completely undue our own flawed democracy and feed the globe to the worst actors on it in a misguided at best effort to do so is just batshit crazy.

The good news is there is no reason to believe anything resembling the doomsday scenario presented will be necessary.
The bad news is the toll will be catastrophic but maybe down from previous expectations because being more targeted is possible as the noose tightens...69,000 - 74,000 may be in the range of plausible outcomes. .

Approaching 1 for 1, maybe even to it considering there are a great many Hamas operatives in above ground capacities as well.

That would be pretty clean work under the circumstances. The population density is very high and when you mix that with how they willfully embed into the the population and civilian infrastructure we are talking a bad situation.

[claudette]

67. You're right

The way I see it, Israel has long passed the other “side” in cruelty. Over 20,000 dead in Gaza.

[Cha]

126. I don't see any IDF Soldiers Raping, Mutilating,

Gang Raping, Butchering Palestinian women.

Fuck the GD Butchers of HAMAS and all those who support those Sadistice Medieval Beasts.

[Chainfire]

147. Is bombing innocent people in their homes not butchering?

[jimfields33]

152. Nope. Hamas is pure evil.

IDF is not raping women and who knows who else. IDF is not keeping hostages.

[AloeVera]

188. I guess as long as they don't do THOSE things...

Everything else is acceptable then. That's what your argument boils down to.

[Cha]

4. "Both sides". HAMAS Started This

Shit & Won,’t agree to the Humanitarian Pause that Israel Offered on Dec 20th.

But fucking HAMAS gets a PASS

[nocoincidences]

7. This video so enraged me, October 7,

I lost all sympathy for Palestinians supporting these Hamas animals.

&ab_channel=DailyMail

[mcar]

14. The shame is that those who consider themselves

pro-women say nothing about this - or excuse brutal terrorists because "but Israel."

[EllieBC]

16. Because Jewish women don't matter to them.

But instead of admitting it they hide and carefully choose their words so they claim they aren’t being understood.

[AZLD4Candidate]

18. As the title of the book says "People Love Dead Jews."

[GoneOffShore]

71. Actually, women don't matter to them. Women are not whole beings in the Hamas world view.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

161. I've wondered if this played into the "Jewish Princess" trope

I just wonder if this isn’t getting the attention it should because the victims are seen as deprived, spoiled rich girls getting what they deserve.

[sheshe2]

25. Shameful indeed.

I know rape happens in wars and it is unacceptable. They went so much further by hammering nails into a living human being, a woman, as if rape wasn't enough to torture and humiliate them, they brutalized these women and girls.
All this was planned to shock and cause pain to the families and the world. Sadly too many shrug it off and say whatabout'isms.

It upsets me to see the protesters, congress critters and people all over the net laying this at Biden's feet and demand that he calls for a ceasefire. He is not the president of Israel last I checked.

[Nixie]

80. Exactly. Now you're called a right winger for calling out hate

speech against Jews.

[mcar]

100. I've been gobsmacked since Oct. 7

at the responses of some who seem incapable of even an iota of sympathy for the massacred, the raped, the tortured and the kidnapped.*

*And anyone who says any version of 'what Hamas did is bad, but Israel' isn't offering that iota.

[Nixie]

121. Well said. The heartless propaganda is thick

and unmistakeable.

[nocoincidences]

15. Exactly!!

What happens to women is so much less important than "The Children".

Women are more important than children if you have to compare groups of humans. Without women, no children. So why does everyone keep lamenting "but the children"?

[AloeVera]

187. What?

I can't fathom what I think you said. It's not about importance, which is nonsense as you described it. All people, regardless of age and gender, have equal importance, no? It's about innocence. No group of humans is more innocent than children so most people feel their loss the most. It's a basic human instinct to shield children from harm.

If the majority of victims of October 7th were children, would you have made the same comment, I wonder?

[TeamProg]

20. Let's talk about rabid animals' physical abuse, sexual humiliation, physical and psychological torture and rape.

A handful of cruel, sick, hateful individual Palestinians among Hamas do these horrible things therefore ALL Palestinians are guilty as those animals. So they are ALL animals -that's quite a jump there.

Let's talk about Abu Graib and GitMo:

During the early stages of the Iraq War, members of the United States Army and the Central Intelligence Agency committed a series of human rights violations and war crimes against detainees in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, including physical abuse, sexual humiliation, both physical and psychological torture, rape, as well the killing of Manadel al-Jamadi and the desecration of his body.[3][4][5][6] The abuses came to public attention with the publication of photographs of the abuse by CBS News in April 2004. The incidents caused shock and outrage, receiving widespread condemnation within the United States and internationally.[7]

The George W. Bush administration said that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were isolated incidents and not indicative of U.S. policy.[8][9]: 328  This was disputed by humanitarian organizations including the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch; these organizations stated that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were part of a wider pattern of torture and brutal treatment at American overseas detention centers, including those in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and at Guantanamo Bay[9]: 328  (Gitmo). There were also 36 prisoners killed at Abu Ghraib due to insurgent mortar attacks. This also provoked criticism due to the facility's location in a combat zone.[10]

Documents popularly known as the Torture Memos came to light a few years later. These documents, prepared in the months leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States Department of Justice, authorized certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" (generally held to involve torture) of foreign detainees. The memoranda also argued that international humanitarian laws, such as the Geneva Conventions, did not apply to American interrogators overseas. Several subsequent U.S. Supreme Court decisions, including Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (2006), have overturned Bush administration policy, ruling that the Geneva Conventions do apply.

In response to the events at Abu Ghraib, the United States Department of Defense removed 17 soldiers and officers from duty. Eleven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault and battery. Between May 2004 and April 2006, these soldiers were court-martialed, convicted, sentenced to military prison, and dishonorably discharged from service. Two soldiers, found to have perpetrated many of the worst offenses at the prison, Specialist Charles Graner and PFC Lynndie England, were subject to more severe charges and received harsher sentences. Graner was convicted of assault, battery, conspiracy, maltreatment of detainees, committing indecent acts and dereliction of duty; he was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment and loss of rank, pay and benefits.[11] England was convicted of conspiracy, maltreating detainees and committing an indecent act and sentenced to three years in prison.[12] Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, the commanding officer of all detention facilities in Iraq, was reprimanded and demoted to the rank of colonel. Several more military personnel who were accused of perpetrating or authorizing the measures, including many of higher rank, were not prosecuted. In 2004, President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld apologized for the Abu Ghraib abuses.

[nocoincidences]

24. Horseshit.

[TeamProg]

26. Pardon me? You don't believe the abuses of U.S. soldiers on Iraqis and others?

[nocoincidences]

30. Not relevant to the topic.

Don't give a shit about that.

Focus!!!

[TeamProg]

38. We are talking about the abuses of war. Abu Graib is completely relevant.

[AloeVera]

186. If you care about the victims of October 7th

Why dont you care about the Iraqi prisoners who also suffered?

Is there some distinction?

[revmclaren]

32. Bothsideism.

Once used, hard to take a poster seriously again IMHO of course.

[lapfog_1]

127. its not even both sides do it

This was the USA doing it, not the IDF or anyone in Israel.

And, as I recall, people here in DU were outraged about Abu Ghraib. A rather unified outrage.

Not so with the rape and mutilation and killing of innocent Israelis on Oct 7th.

After Abu Ghraib... I don't remember the soldiers bringing their victims back to the USA and parading them around in the beds of pickup trucks with hundreds and thousands of "innocent" civilians throwing shoes and shouting "God is great" and spitting on the captives.

[revmclaren]

128. Very true.

[oldsoftie]

137. YES. people WERE punished for Abu Graib. Hamas had parades with hostages.

And the crowds celebrating. the terror weren't Hamas

[revmclaren]

28. ...

[question everything]

36. No, let's not! Start your own thread, don't hijack others'. Are you capable?

[TeamProg]

41. I'm only referring to some history of abuses that happen in war. Most humans don't blame all Americans for

what the horriblwe abuses of a handful of evil U.S. soldiers, right? So how can you blame ALL Palestinians for what a handful of Hamas members did?

[NoRethugFriends]

45. A handful? You must have very very large hands.

[TeamProg]

48. I was being generous, probably LESS than a handful of Hamas members were doing such atrocities, but I can't say.

Please tell us exactly how many different Hamas members carried out the atrocities described here.

[oldsoftie]

138. These atrocities were part of the PLAN of attack. This is how THEY operate.

Get your head out of the sand. these werent isolated incidents.
https://abc7chicago.com/hamas-rape-allegations-victims-sexual-assault-israel-war/14162727/

"Sexual violence inflicted by Hamas 'beyond anything I've seen': Secretary of State Antony Blinken"

[TheKentuckian]

176. All of them. THIS WAS THE FUCKING PLAN!

I guess you believe Manson should have lived out his life as a free man since he didn't have a hands on role?

Hamas is the government of Gaza and perpetrated a vile act of aggression. This is not a set of hundreds of individual actions but rather state based terrorism and a breath taking act of war.

This was the battle plan. Pretending it was a crime scene rather than an act of war is absurd.

[TeamProg]

197. You don't know that. Lots of assuming there. nt

[yagotme]

198. You seem to have an idea of an actual number.

Care to share it with the rest of us?

[TeamProg]

199. Already discussed above.

[yagotme]

200. From videos released, it was more than ten (handful).

Care for another attempt?

[TeamProg]

201. You seem to have an idea of an actual number. nt

[yagotme]

203. You are the one refuting when someone posts an opinion on participation levels.

Therefore, the answer must lay with you.

[TeamProg]

204. Already discussed above.

[TheKentuckian]

223. What is your argument?

The wiping and dangling for Hamas has broken the meter.

[TeamProg]

231. A: That what the US did at Abu Graib was about as bad. I'm not apologizing for the sickos in

Hamas. It’s just that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON but me has mentioned the USA’s role in body desecration, torture and rape by our own soldiers at Abu Graib.

It is small mindedness to not consider that history and even “puny”-mindedness to call my words bothsiderisms. It’s known as “EXAMPLES” or “COMPS”. Ever heard those words?

I’ve obviously hit a nerve mentioning Abu Graib.

[TheKentuckian]

240. What are comparing to what end other than white washing fucking Hamas again?

[TeamProg]

242. Or what the Turks did to the Armenians. All horrible! All done before! S. Africa has filed paperwork for Netayahu to

come before the I.C.J. at The Hague. Why would they DO THAT?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

46. The NYT article is very hard to read without getting sick and angry

Link to tweet

[claudette]

68. Yes

It was horrible. And should never have happened. How many dead innocent Palestinians will avenge that?

[Nixie]

157. "Should never have happened"

Yes, and add it should never happen again. That is Israel's focus. That will never happen again.

[Abolishinist]

177. It's a never-ending battle on many fronts, isn't it.

[Nixie]

193. Yes it is. Quite deplorable even.

[Warpy]

51. You do realize the Arabs are saying exactly the same thing about the Israelis, right?

This has been one long war crime by both sides.

It has also gone on a lot longer than just the last 3 months.

Don't take any of this as fact, not yet. Much will be hashed out at The World Court.

[Cha]

125. So, HAMAS Started This SHIT. They don't give a Shit about

Palestinians.

[Chainfire]

148. And because Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinians that gives Israel permission kill innocent Palestinians?

Twisted logic.

[TheKentuckian]

241. The genocidal extremists that have tried to wipe Israel

of the map repeatedly and now fund and support generational terrorism as the fallback once victory by might seemed out of reach?

Who the fuck cares what lies and propaganda they have on offer?

[DemocraticPatriot]

55. Indeed.... horrific... unpardonable....

How many Palestinian woman and children are required to die to pay for these atrocities?


What is the number of civilian deaths in Gaza required to pay for the atrocities committed against Israel on October 7th ?


What will "make it even" ?

[Richard D]

58. it's not about making it even

it's about making it not happen again
big difference .

[elias7]

60. I think this is a missed point of the whole Israeli response.

Many think this is about retribution.

[Richard D]

62. I think.

This is another version of the "blood libel" trope.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

79. Well, in this thread alone

We've had the "Jews control the media", "Jews control the government", and "Jews kill babies" so why not go for the superfecta?

[Richard D]

90. I never thought I'd see such blatant antisemitism in DU.

Really shocking.

[Richard D]

63. It is so missed . . .

. . . And I don't think that is accidental. The amount of propaganda that is created about this is insane - all to make it seem like Israel is acting in revenge in the most blood-thirsty manner possible. This is absurd and, at its core, highly antisemitic.

People need to really ask themselves what they would do had such a thing happened to their loved ones, friends, neighbors, and relatives. The horror that those victims of Hamas went through is really too much to comprehend. We can read about it, but what those poor women went through is beyond the point of revenge. It is not beyond the point of preventing again, though. That is the critical point that way too many are missing. And they are missing it because they are being programmed to miss it and see it as revenge. This is "Blood Libel."

What would I be willing to do to prevent such a thing from happening to my daughters? This is not a rhetorical question. Hamas and many Palestinians have promised they will do it again to an even greater and more horrible extent. I would do anything necessary to protect them. Otherwise, I would not be human. Any other conversation is bullshit noise. Too many want to forget October 7. Too many want to forget the poor women who were gang raped, tortured, mutilated, and beheaded. Too many want to forget the young woman who was paraded through the streets of Gaza, her body spit upon, not by Hamas, but by the people in the streets to the shouting of Allahu Akbar, her breasts cut off and played with. I get nauseous just writing this.

IMNVHO, Israel showed great restraint in their response. Yes, it was brutal, and yes, it had to and has to be. People squawk about genocide and ethnic cleansing. Were that the goal, the war would have been Biblically completed and over on October 8, with no further loss of life to Israeli soldiers and "not one stone shall be left here upon another" in Gaza. But they didn't do that, and they are doing what they can to lessen civilian casualties in an impossibly crowded urban environment - even though this is costing the lives of many hundreds of Israeli soldiers.

[GoneOffShore]

72. This is one of the best answers to this difficult question that I have seen.

Thank you.

[GuppyGal]

112. +1000000

[DemocraticPatriot]

92. OK. So the number of civilian woman and children who die in Gaza

from Israeli bombs is not relevant. Got it.


Thank you for your honesty.....


What Israel is doing to Gaza, is making it SURE that it will happen again---
unless they wipe out every human being in Gaza... especially the young children...


but whatever.

Hey, what should the innocent victims in Gaza do,
"to make sure that "THIS" never happens again" ???

[Richard D]

93. Yeah . . .

. . . what would you do to protect someone you love, say your child, from having nails driven into her legs while being gang raped and then knives inserted into her vagina and then have her head cut off? None of this happening quickly.

[DemocraticPatriot]

94. I wouldn't drop 2000 pound bombs in civilian areas,

hoping that I would "get lucky" and kill the guilty party,
with a shitload of unintended targets---

I would go in and do it myself, if i thought something should be done---
if I was trained to fight, as members of the IDF are....

[Mossfern]

245. If you went in to do it yourself

you'd be dead before you got there. That's just not pragmatic thinking. Yes, pragmatic.
Israel is attempting to assure that horrors like 10/7 never happen again. Never Again!
It's been mentioned so, so many times that if Hamas would surrender and return the hostages (if any are still alive) that the bombing would cease.

Please remember that it was Hamas that refused a humanitarian cease fire.
Why no ire for their refusal?

[DemocraticPatriot]

249. "Pragmatic thinking"---

Kill as many Gazans as you can, with bombs dropped from airplanes....

Yeah, I get it.


I have no sympathy for Hamas..... I have been saying, kill them with ground troops,
instead of trying to bomb them to death with all the "collateral damage"

but bombing all the civilians in Gaza makes as little sense as the US attacks on Iraq for 9-11....

[Mossfern]

253. Pragmatic thinking

is not trying to kill as many civilians as possible if the goal is to eliminate Hamas - it's deciding the most efficient way of obtaining an objective. (Protecting people in Israel)

Honestly I don't know if there would be many fewer deaths of civilians if Israel went in with ground troops - it's not as if Hamas wears uniforms. Their "warriors" hide amongst civilian families and there are "civilian" collaborators.

How are IDF to know the difference? Hamas doesn't care about innocent civilians - otherwise they wouldn't be hiding amongst them, storing weapons in schools and homes, launching missiles for hospitals, schools, places of worship. It's Hamas that is culpable of war crimes and their objective is to rid the land of Israel and the earth of all Jews and eventually all non Muslims.

Israel's objective is to protect their people.

Just to remind you, in case you didn't know my views: I am vehemently against Netanyahu, Likud, West Bank settlers and the right wing in Israel. My children attended Habonim Dror summer camps - our values in our home have always been for peace with the Palestinian people...just like those who were murdered in Kibbutzim on 10/7. For goodness sake, Hamas attacked a Peace festival! There are Israelis protesting the continued bombing of Gaza - how many Palestinians are protesting Hamas atrocities?

[Cha]

129. So much So! Why don't some People Get that?!

HAMAS doesn't just want to kill all the Israelis.. They Brag "The West Is Next"

[Happy Hoosier]

153. False equivalency.

You've made the assumption that the point is to kill Palestinian civilians as revenge for Oct. Or at least you imply that.

Hamas has to go. The power that planned and executed the horrific Oct 7 attacks cannot remain in power. It's that simple.

So I'll turn this around and ask if you think an outcome where the perpetraitors of those crimes remain in power in Gaza is an acceptable outcome?

[yagotme]

158. This question:

How many Palestinian woman and children are required to die to pay for these atrocities?

should be asked of Hamas. They are the ones using human shields, refusing to surrender, breaking/refusing cease fires. Only THEY can answer this.

[oldsoftie]

78. And Hamas promises CONTINUED attacks. Their stated goal is NO Israel.

Its sad how many people are willing to ignore that FACT.

[DemocraticPatriot]

95. And Israel's stated goal is No Hamas....

I am not saying they are wrong to feel the same----

but neither party has the 'moral high ground' in this war....


Initially I had more sympathy for Israel after the attack---

but they have sullied themselves with their disproportionate response,

and HAMAS is not the only party who is covered in the blood of babies...

[GuppyGal]

114. "but neither party has the 'moral high ground' in this war...." What the actual fuck?

[sheshe2]

123. The difference?

Israel said no Hamas, not a bad thing. HAMAS is a terrorist organization. They did not say no Palestine.

However Hamas has said no Israel and wants them all dead.

[oldsoftie]

136. Equating a terrorist group with a NATION is insane.

Its shocking to see such equivalence on a site like this full of educated people.
Hamas IS covered with the blood of babies because they stand BEHIND those babies. When Israel began dropping leaflets for people to move, Hamas was telling them to STAY. They base their attacks from civilian areas. Their tunnels are accessed from hospitals, schools, even an amusement park. Israel cant 'fake" tunnels like they've been accused of faking everything else.

[DemocraticPatriot]

218. 22,000 Gazan Palestinians are just as dead as 1200 Israelis,

only there are a lot more of them...


Israel is also "covered with the blood of babies"....

whether they killed them 'up close and personal', or with 2000 pound bombs,
makes little difference in the end---


As I already said, I do not defend Hamas, I DESPISE HAMAS,
but I expect better from a supposed Democratic government,
indeed, from a government of Jews,
than I expect from a "terrorist group"....

Apparently, you do NOT expect better from them. OK....

[oldsoftie]

224. Violence is all that works against groups like Hamas. All the blood is on them.

Because NONE of it would be happening if they hadn't done what they did. So it was the "last straw' for the Israelis. They've told them for months to leave; Hamas tells them to stay Israel isnt perfect by far. And Netanyahu MUST go. But I'll let them do what they think they must do to take out as many terrorists as possible. Dealing with Islamists isnt easy; they dont fight by the "rules of war", they willfully use civilians as shields, they build their networks in civilian areas, etc.
Maybe ONE day they'll learn that Israel isnt going anywhere. Until then, well, they get what they get.

As I've asked before, if all these rich Arab nations care about the Palestinians SO much, then why aren't they offering to help them? Why aren't they offering to take any in? Why dont they offer a combined Arab force to go into Gaza & rid the area of Hamas? I think Israel would welcome that. Jordan, Egypt, S.A. etc, all form a NATO-like military force to go in & get rid of the terrorists while protecting the civilians. I'd bet the Gazans would welcome them as opposed to Israeli forces. Why dont they do that? The UN goes all over doing it. The US does it. Why cant these Arab nations do it? But we hear nothing but critics. of Israel
Because they dont really care either.

[DemocraticPatriot]

248. But Hamas doesn't have any 2000 pound bombs to drop...

If they did, no doubt they would.... and would blame them on Israel, yes?


But they are not the ones dropping those bombs on Gaza....

Did they manipulate Israel into doing thus? Yeah, they did....
the most successful terrorist action in the history of the world---
since it provoked Israel into an over-reaction which has directed world condemnation onto them,
rather than against those who initiated the war....

But in the end, the responsibility for the bombs thus dropped on Gaza,
remains with the party who dropped them.....

[AZSkiffyGeek]

202. You don't think that terrorists who rape and dismember women and children should be eliminated?

Nice to see all the true colors coming out in this thread.

[womanofthehills]

212. Haaretz has mixed reports on the rapes

Saying women were raped, but also posting they need women to come forward if they were raped or saw a rape as no women have come forward The main women the NYT’s claimed was raped according to Haaretz was not raped according to her family and reported by Haaretz. Her family said because of the time line of texts from their daughter & people in the car she was bombed in a car with 4 minutes between texts & definitely not raped as her body was badly blown up - which is bad. Not saying- there weren’t rapes but why does NYT pick a women whose family said there was no timeline to be raped as the women who is their main rape story??

[DemocraticPatriot]

217. I did not say that--- in fact, I did say that I despise them---

so YOU are trying to put words into my mouth----

"Nice to see all the true colors coming out in this thread."

What troubles me is all the women and children in Gaza,
who had nothing to do with such horrific acts,
being killed with 1000 pound bombs---

but obviously you do not care about women and children being killed anywhere else,
unless they were murdered by Hamas...

"Nice to see all the true colors coming out in this thread."


See how that works ????

One civiilian death in one place just not justify 20 civilian deaths somewhere else---
nor does 1000 justify 20,0000

nor does criticizing the Israeli responsive overkill make someone an 'anti-semitist'

(No, you didn't say it, but we can read between the lines well enough----
What you seem to say is "only the deaths of Israeli Jews count",
"and if you don't like that, then you are an anti-semitist!&quot




I deplore all of the deaths happening in the middle east,
but I expect better of a supposed democratic government, than I expect from terrorists....

and HAMAS has been extremely successful in the goals of their Oct. 7 terrorist attack on Israel---

They made Israel overreact in a way that is bringing world condemnation upon Israel,
which was their goal.... which is the classical goal of terrorist actions.

[DemocraticPatriot]

250. I have said that I DO think so....

I just don't feel that TEN women and babies in Gaza
should be killed for every ONE Hamas fighter they manage to eliminate....


I can't document those numbers,
but that is my opinion about what is happening.


All those civilian casualties in Gaza are pretty well 'dismembered'...

Whether one does it up close with metal weapons,
or from a distance with 2,000 pound bombs,
the result seems quite the same to me....

except that Israel is winning the battle when it comes to civilian or "collateral casualties".


You can take your 'true colors' and---- take a goddamn good look at your own morality.

[malaise]

81. As is Bibi's slaughter

That is all

[TexasDem69]

84. That comparison is bullshit and you know it

Or at least you should. Hamas’ brutality and the deaths resulting from Israel defending itself in response to that brutality are in no way comparable. I can’t imagine the agony of that woman as Hamas put nail after nail into her legs and groin before deciding to murder her. It was torture designed to inflict as much pain as possible.

And see post 63 for a great explanation.

[EllieBC]

87. Do you point out what Hamas has done

on threads critical of Israel or no? So it’s really just pure Jew hatred?

[malaise]

88. There are 22,000 dead Palestinians

The majority of whom are women and children. They were slaughtered by Bibi’s IDF. Nothing justifies this response.
I will not remain silent.

[EllieBC]

89. So that's a no you don't point it out.

Well, maybe Hamas should worry about Palestinians and stop violating ceasefires.

As a Jew I won’t remain silent either about the barbarian terrorists called Hamas.

[TexasDem69]

98. How should the IDF respond to the rape, torture and murder of over 1,000

Israeli civilians? And keep in mind Hamas celebrated their atrocities and vowed to do it again.

[AZLD4Candidate]

103. Apparently they should do nothing. Remember, as the title of the book says "people love dead jews."

[GuppyGal]

116. They should pick off these underground Hamas scum one by one .....even if it takes decades and let them live their

lives in the meantime.

[Richard D]

118. I'm glad you put the sarecasm there.

Because this seems to be exactly what many believe should happen. While more such horrors occur and worse. I'd compare Hamas to stage 4 cancer, but it is far worse.

[TheKentuckian]

101. The attack absolutely necessitated the response.

The refusal to release the hostages and surrender requires it continue until the capacity for a repeat is destroyed.

No justification is needed. The response must follow the action like night must follow the day.

Don't care for the response then refrain from actions that mandate its absolute necessity.

Israel is exercising great restraint, Gaza could be a sheet of glass and would be if most nations had to switch places.

[GuppyGal]

115. 22K dead according to WHOM?

[Richard D]

169. According to . . .

. . . (drum roll) . . . The Gaza Health Ministry, which operates under and is controlled by . . . (more drums) . . . Hamas.

[claudette]

132. No it isn't

What do you call not pointing Israel’s brutality in Gaza. Muslim hatred?

[1WorldHope]

85. Someday, maybe humans will decide to outlaw war.

Maybe, no males between the ages of 18 and 90 should be allowed to lead any country.

?si=TA6P2Y1bCp5GpMnc

[AZLD4Candidate]

104. Kellogg-Briand did that. It wasn't successful

[1WorldHope]

108. Very interesting. I knew nothing of it, but if it was tried before and failed,

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try again.
Thank you for knowing that and sharing it with me. 🙏

[oldsoftie]

191. Russia agreed to leave Ukraine alone & look how that went. NT

[TheKentuckian]

225. Laws without consequences and enforcement are suggestions

and the only remedy for a determined aggressor is the action made illegal.

If no one was going to break them there would be no need to make them.

The law also would have the noticeable bug of not popping up a forcefield to stop the illegal missile about to blow us up or slow down the illegal tanks rolling over the paper it is written on.

Desirable but functionally irrational. Laws are not spells, making them has no power by itself, they must be honored, executed, observed, and enforced.

Imagine is a lovely song and sentiment but by imagining it frames the endgame as a possibility without any path from open your eyes and see to all the people living as one.

The imaging away naked aggression and/or just wanting to watch the world burn alone can only lead to heart ache and great suffering before we even touch on any other contributing factors that aren't going to be wished away.

What you hope for is beyond law making. You want to change human nature with the stroke of a pen, that isn't possible.

[elocs]

91. Regardless of Hamas' brutality, does it justify killing thousands of innocent Gaza Palastinians?

Evidently to Israel it does and the whole world is watching. Sad.

[TheKentuckian]

105. The need to obliterate the possibility of any repeat mandates the elimination of Hamas

If the watching world can ensure such with less bloodshed then it ought to lend that hand to the effort.

[oldsoftie]

192. So put the blame where it belongs; on those who started it.

Knowing what the response would be. They THRIVE on civilian deaths. Thats why they base their attacks from civilian areas. When countries dont respond because civilians will be killed, you guarantee continued and increased attacks by groups hiding amongst civilians.

[madaboutharry]

107. There is Hamas denialism in this thread.

The bodies of dead Israelis and others were in such a mutilated state that it required archaeologists to help forensic scientists identify them. Families were bound together and set on fire and burnt alive. People were beheaded and dismembered. Scores upon scores of women, and men, were raped and sexually mutilated. Cars were set on fire, burning the occupants alive. The Rabbis had to rule that entire cars needed to be buried because they could not remove all the remains. People were gunned down running from the terrorists and then purposely shot in the face.

No, it was not a handful of Hamas who committed the atrocities. It was all of them.

[MyMission]

130. Hamas is to Gazans what Maga is to republicans

Sure, not all rethugs support maga, but most do and would vote for tfg and his agenda.
Sure, not all Gazans support Hamas, but most do and would vote for Hamas and their agenda.

And who knows how many rethugs or Gazans go along with their leaders for fear of retribution?
(They go along with them!)
Or how many really have such hate in their hearts for Dems or Jews?
(They each want to destroy their enemies, Dems or Jews!)
Or how magats or hamas have been influenced by foreign countries (Russia, Iran) funding and fueling their evil agendas? (They both take the money and use it to advance their agendas!)

The point is they both mostly go along with the party line, following their leaders.
Magats and tfg assaulted our democracy on 1/6, as well as before and after! And rethugs protect them, shield them, willingly or reluctantly.
Hamas and allies assaulted Israel, a democracy, on 10/7, and expected Israel to retaliate against them, as they hide among civilians and use them as willing or unwilling shields.

Most here at DU see and realize the threat maga poses to our democracy and way of life.
Some here at DU don't see or realize the threat hamas poses to Israel, and their way of life!

Just as we here in the US are fighting for our rights and freedoms against "evil" chaos agents, Israel is fighting for their rights and freedoms against comparable evil chaos agents.

Rethugs have become synonymous with maga.
Palestinians have become synonymous with Hamas.
Rethugs who don't support maga but remain in the party are complicit.
Palestinians who don't support Hamas but remain in the party are complicit.

I agree, "it was not a handful of Hamas who committed the atrocities. It was all of them."
I feel the same about magats and their atrocities.

(Maybe I should post this as an op and see where it goes? Or maybe not?)

[oldsoftie]

139. No, not another OP; you should write that for The NY Times !

Excellent read & comparison.
I cant believe the excuses I'm seeing here

[claudette]

131. Yet many

pardon the unspeakable brutality in Gaza against thousands of innocent Palestinians by Nuttyahoo. So sad 🥲

[AlexSFCA]

133. no one pardons it, it's retaliation with the goal to eliminate hamas

and yes, there isn’t a way to do it w/o civilian casualties as hamas uses human shields. Biden and Israel are laser focused on eliminating hamas once and for all.

[claudette]

134. Oh yes

The “human shield” statement. 22,000 human shields? Retaliation is ok now??? How many dead Palestinians will avenge 10/7? Then this will never end

[Willto]

142. First

First that 22000 is a number from Hamas that only a handful of Hamas lovers here believe is credible.

Second, here is the best way I can differentiate the two sides'

It's not about a number of dead that is enough retribution for Oct 7th. Israel wants Hamas gone. That is the necessary goal to keep it's people safe. If Israel had a way to kill only the members of Hamas without harming a single Palestinian they would do it. Unfortunately no such way exists primarily because Hamas uses civilians as a human shield for which you never condemn them for some reason.

On the other hand if Hamas were offered a choice between killing only Israel's military or killing every Jew on earth. They would choose to kill every Jew on earth without hesitation and then party in the streets for a month in a constant state of ecstatic glee.

And that is who you are defending. Yeah, I said "defending". You never start a thread to condemn Hamas. You never spontaneously attack them in a thread. Only when your feet are held to the fire do you offer up a "Well yeah Hamas is kind of bad too". Otherwise it's all Israel bashing.

Make no mistake this bothsiderism and focusing only on actions by Israel is spewing exactly what Hamas would have it's paid internet agents spew. Not saying you are one but they would sure approve your actions.

[Mossfern]

246. You have it wrong

it's not about avenging the atrocities of 10/7, it's about making sure such an event never happens again.
Surely you can understand that.




bye

[madaboutharry]

141. 9,500 are Hamas deaths.

The number of 22,000 dead is coming from Hamas.The terrorist organization that committed the massacre of October 7th is not a reliable source. Among the dead from the fighting in Gaza are 8,500 Hamas terrorist killed with an additional 1,000 Hamas terrorist killed during the fighting on October 7th.

For purposes of propagandizing the world, Hamas is intentionally making no distinction between civilian and combatant deaths, and it defines any person under the age of 18 as a child even if that person is a combatant and member of Hamas.

Thousands of civilians have been killed. No one is disputing that. Every civilian death is a tragedy. To say that 22,000 innocent people have been killed is simply not true and is perpetuating a lie.

Urban warfare is always bloody and ugly. That is a fact of war. Hamas is responsible for this war and for misery and suffering it has brought to its own people.

[questionseverything]

163. Link ? For that hamas death's number

[AloeVera]

179. About as reliable as you believe Hamas' numbers to be.

The 8,500 figure, according to the IDF, was derived using "intelligence" aka informants, testimony of captives and satellite pictures (?).

In other words, about as reliable as you believe Hamas sources to be.

It is hospitals that receive the dead, then record and report out. All the hospitals in the North, and most in the South, are now closed. So with no real mechanism now for the handling and recording of the dead, the likelihood of severe under-reporting is high.

How many are buried under rubble and not included in the death count? It was around 7,000 a month or more ago. Perhaps no one can keep track now. But eventually it will be known.

Consider also the impact of the communications black-out and the lack of fuel even for ambulances, even if there was someplace to take the injured. No care available for them so many have and will die where they are, in their homes and on the streets. I don't know about you, but I find that pretty horrific to even think about. Even if you think that's a deserved fate for any Hamas member, I'm pretty certain many civilians are suffering the same fate and those deaths are unreported.

When this is over, and the full extent of civilian deaths from military action is determined, it will be absolutely horrifying, no matter which side you're on.

As for deaths from starvation and disease, if that is allowed to happen, there is no amount of blame-shifting or finger-pointing that will wipe off the ugly stain of genocide.

[egduj]

182. So if the IDF gave a figure and Hamas gave a figure, which one would you put more credibility on?

And don't cop out with a "down the middle" type of answer. Which side would you lean toward?

I willingly admit I'd rely more on the IDF figures. But from reading your post, I'm curious how you will respond?

[AloeVera]

183. I don't rely on either one, I'm inclined to do my own analysis and then make a determination.

I would like to put more weight on the figures provided by the army of a democratic nation-state vs the perpetrators of October 7th. But to be honest, I don't believe the IDF much of the time. Their lack of credibility and honesty has been proven to me time and time again. Long before this war. Do I believe them sometimes? Yes, if I deem that they are telling the truth, based on my own analysis.

Same goes for Hamas and Palestinian sources. The reason I believe the figures provided by the "Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health" is because I did my research on their credibility on this issue in the past. NGO's and the UN found their numbers to be pretty accurate in past wars. If anything, I believe they are under-counting for the reasons mentioned, but also because I think they actually don't want their people to know the true casualty figures for their own self-preservation and loss of face. They don't want people to know how badly they're losing (as if they couldn't tell by now). Not sure if that makes sense to you, I read that and it kind of resonates.

Do I believe Hamas on the number of IDF casualties or damage to IDF equipment for example? No. Obvious propaganda, again based on my own analysis.

Now that I've responded to your cross-examination of my personal stance, I'm curious to know what you think of the under-counting theory and the other issues in my post.

[egduj]

196. Sometimes no answer is the clearest answer of all.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

207. I saw one fact checker explaining the numbers and why they reported them

And how accurate they were because during a previous outbreak Hamas said 1500 casualties and independent verification was practically the same at 1000.
Because apparently differing by 1/3 is “practically the same”

[Chainfire]

150. Hamas' brutality is unpardonable

Of course Hamas' brutality is unpardonable. It was horrible, it was tragic, and any other negative adjectives that you care to add. I have seen no one dispute that fact on this forum.

What is disputed, over and over, is whether the scale of Israel's response is pardonable. Many of us, who would be happy to see Hamas wiped out to the last man, do not believe that the unrestricted warfare on the population of Gaza is pardonable.

[egduj]

151. What would you have Israel do?

[AloeVera]

165. Adhere to international and humanitarian laws.

Just for starters, this means:

Stop denial of access to real, adequate and meaningful humanitarian aid. Stop starving civilians.

Stop the bombing of civilian homes, schools, hospitals and all places where people have gathered for safety.

Stop the destruction and forceful closure of hospitals and medical facilities.

Stop the total destruction of Gaza itself, done in order to facilitate and make inevitable the forceful transfer of Palestinians out of their homeland.

[TheKentuckian]

178. Absolutely not because doing so means a near complete inabilty

to meet the objective.

Hamas is using hospitals, schools, civilian homes and infrastructure as bases of operations, staging locations, prisons for hostages, barracks, weapons depots, and attack locations.
They have to be destroyed where they are not in the Land of Make Believe.

You seemingly are not understanding the conditions on the ground or are setting up conditions that can only result in impunity for Hamas.

I also understand having serious reservations about allowing the enemy to resupply and absolutely understand the imperative that all supplies allowed in be rigorously inspected for weapons and operatives coming in and out. No if's, and's, or but's on that.

You are saying that the willingness to use human shields is the golden ticket and ultimate trump card because any action against that enemy that harms the shield is forbidden and that is insane.

[AloeVera]

185. Trust me, people in Gaza don't live in the Land of Make Believe. They live the horror every moment.

You an I, on the other hand, "internet warriors" that we are, are incredibly lucky and priviledged to be able to debate their lives and deaths from a safe distance.

You are clearly saying that international laws take a back stage to meeting military objectives. That's a very basic point that we disagree on. In my view, international laws were put in place precisely to reign in nations that believe they can conduct a war in the way that is based solely on their own objectives. The thinking being that civilian lives were just as important, if not more, than any nation's goals in war.

The conditions on the ground as you define them are highly debatable. I don't think that your views of what those are are necessarily accurate. I don't believe, for instance, that designating civilians as "human shields" should be an automatic death sentence for them. I question how people living in an apartment building that MAY also house a Hamas family can suddenly lose their lives because they are now unknowingly an unfortunate "human shield" I question also how Hamas can be hiding or storing weapons in close to 300,000 housing units, nearly all hospitals and medical facilities (around 200), nearly all schools and mosques, nearly all office buildings, bakeries, markets and many infrastructure-related buildings necessary for sustaining human life.

As I look at the enormous physical damage done to almost all of Gaza, I have to wonder how it is that Hamas managed to hide or store weapons in all of them. I also have to wonder why it is that the high number of civilian casualties are so easily dismissed by claims of "human shields'" and whether there is something wrong or even nefarious in the use of this justification. It seems to me that if you define a human shield as a civilian in any sort of proximity to a Hamas fighter, a Hamas home, a Hamas military-whatever, you have unrestrained latitude in bombing pretty much any building or facility anywhere in Gaza. You don't even have to provide proof, it's a blanket get-out-of-jail card.

So to me, what is "insane" is accepting without questioning the claims that all of this destruction, all of these deaths, all this suffering, the coming starvation and disease, were necessary and unavoidable. I can tell you that once you start questioning, it can lead to places that are far from the Land of Make Believe.

[TheKentuckian]

208. Your questions are a refusal to take reality for an answer.

The number of operatives, the density of the population, and the intentional use of civilian infrastructure answers them deep into the realm of possibility before even adding finding over and over exactly what is being explained repeatedly.

Hospitals, schools, Mosques, residences are just some of the priority locations for operations because of the protected status that comes with them in a disgusting strategy to either grant them impunity or to bring the war to them where they hide.

The latter is the only answer.

[egduj]

180. I don't think any of that was happening before 10/7...

And, as the poster above me stated far better than I could, it really doesn't apply right now.

[AloeVera]

184. So October 7th means all laws can now be flouted?

Israel was viciously attacked by a non-state actor and now Israel is entitled to respond in kind? Geneva, Rome and Genocide - all Conventions are meaningless and no longer apply? Only Israel's "objectives" matter and morality, ethics and humanitarian laws be damned?

Is this what you are saying??

[egduj]

195. They are responding against this non-state actor,

Which happens to be hiding and fighting from behind the cover of the very state that supports them.

I reject your false premise that Israel is attacking, or committing "genocide," against Palestine in retaliation for Hamas' atrocities. I also reject your premise that Israel is "responding in kind." Not even Hamas' has reported that any Palestinian women have had nails driven into their genitals or that Palestinian children were raped and killed in front of their parents. Yet that's the "kind" of things that happened on 10/7.

Israel is going after the terrorists who happen to be cowering behind their own people who have supported them for decades.

[AloeVera]

206. Loud and clear.

So in your view it seems everything Israel does is necessary and justified and Israel has no agenda other than eliminating Hamas.

I hear you loud and clear. I have no response, as anything I would say will not matter to you one whit.

Have a nice day.

[SoFlaBro]

214. No, it means that hopefully the IDF will mop up the Hamas shitstains and curb all of these Hamas lovers.

[AloeVera]

215. No idea who you mean by Hamas lovers nor do I care.

It's your way of trying to discredit while dismissing and deflecting from the question I raised.

[SoFlaBro]

226. Nope. I just call balls and strikes. The Hamas supporters and Hamas lovers are very evident in their behavior.

[AloeVera]

228. You spelled CHILDREN wrong. N/T

[SoFlaBro]

237. Hamas's favorite business is dead Palestinian children and business is a-BOOMIN' :nuke:

[TheKentuckian]

236. Hamas is funtioning as a state actor. They are what passes for the legitimate

ruling authority of Gaza.

International law in no way dictates that a nation must absorb whatever rape, death, and depravity another is willing to throw at it because the enemy elects to embed and hide themselves and materials or war among and behind their own population.

Why are Israeli citizens and children demanded to be sacrificed rather than protected? Hamas deemed to be naughty by some committee or another (MAYBE...seems tough to even get that beyond being on a list of bad..mkay already) but beyond shame or reach does less than jack shit about the clear threat they present, in fact it strongly encourages more by dictating impunity for all the attacks they can muster.

Sounds like the most heinous and stupidly cruel laws ever and as such are being misinterpreted or must be dismissed because otherwise a nation is mandated to willingly fail in its most sacred obligation which is the protection of its people and in turn no people will tolerate it and will install a government that will do its job and do it as aggressively as possible and failing that will become a mass murder mob and do what is believed to be necessary themselves which will most likely actually result in genocide because the alternative is not even remotely tolerable.

The entire premise is batshit crazy weapons grade stupid, and would eventually mean the surrender of western civilization to the worst pieces of shit on the planet if it is just an antisemitic lie used as a cudgel against just one nation.

[Kennah]

213. Estimates of civilian deaths between Iraq and Afghanistan runs upwards of 423K

If we're damning Israel, then we need to damn the United States equally.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-war-bush-twentieth-anniversary-b2302031.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/iraq-war-numbers-rcna75762

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraqi_insurgency_(2011%E2%80%93present)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021)

[Orrex]

216. Absolutely 100% this

[Kennah]

220. And probably the US moreso

We invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. Taliban was willing to talk [I think in October 2001] and not allow Al-Qaeda safe harbor, but the US said no we want regime change. Then invasion of Iraq to avenge Daddy Bush.

Israel was legit attacked by Hamas.

I don't believe ANY of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi.

[revmclaren]

221. Sunday morning kick.

Let's keep this thread trending.

[Chainfire]

229. We agree that the Hamas brutality is unpardonable, what is in dispute is whether Israel's brutality is acceptable.

Over 20,000 dead now, most of them innocent victims of the unfortunate accident of where they were born.

[TheKentuckian]

243. You should be less stingy about waiving your magic wand

and disappear the enemy.

Stop holding out while flinging poo and magic beans.

[Chainfire]

244. My big problem is my inability to ignore the suffering of other human beings. So sue me...

[keithbvadu2]

234. And Hamas vows to continue its terrorism.

[revmclaren]

252. Monday morning Kick.

Let's keep this important thread going.

😥🕍

[LetMyPeopleVote]

254. 13 women remain in Hamas captivity.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[revmclaren]

258. I hope they are able to come home.

Each day that passes in the clutches of the Hamas animals and their supporters gives me less and less hope they are even still alive.

😥🕍

[revmclaren]

257. Tuesday morning Kick.

😥🕍