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Jilly_in_VA

(13,887 posts)
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:53 PM Jan 2024

A girl was allegedly raped in the metaverse. Is this the beginning of a dark new future?

The cheerful language with which tech companies describe their platforms is often in stark contrast to the dark possibilities lurking within them. Meta, for example, describes its virtual world, the metaverse, as “the next evolution in social connection and the successor to the mobile internet”, a place where “virtual reality lets you explore new worlds and shared experiences”. But for a young girl in the UK recently, that “shared experience” was an alleged gang rape perpetrated by several adult men.

British police are investigating the sexual assault of the girl, identified only as being under the age of 16, in what is said to be the first investigation of its kind in the UK. The girl was reportedly wearing a virtual reality headset and playing an immersive game in the metaverse when her avatar was attacked.

Was this really rape? some have asked. The comments on an Instagram post for a story about the case in the New York Post were characteristically skeptical: “Couldn’t she have just turned it off?” “Can we focus on real-life crime please?” “I was killed in [the war video game Call of Duty],” one person said sarcastically: “Been waiting for my killer to be brought to justice.”

The difference, of course, is that while Call of Duty players can expect to be virtually killed sometimes as part of the game, the girl had no reason to expect that she would be raped. It isn’t yet known what game she was playing when the alleged assault occurred, but obviously there isn’t an online game where the goal for adult players is to rape children. The fact that they are able to in the metaverse is the issue at the heart of this case, which has attracted international attention.

The question of whether virtual rape is “really rape” goes back to at least 1993, when the Village Voice published an article by Julian Dibbell about “a rape in cyberspace”. Dibbell’s piece reported on how the people behind avatars that were sexually assaulted in a virtual community felt emotions similar to those of victims of physical rape.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/05/metaverse-sexual-assault-vr-game-online-safety-meta

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A girl was allegedly raped in the metaverse. Is this the beginning of a dark new future? (Original Post) Jilly_in_VA Jan 2024 OP
Sorry, but snowybirdie Jan 2024 #1
She was playing an immersive video game involving a headset and an "avatar" or character that moved the way she WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #2
A game snowybirdie Jan 2024 #3
. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #5
Interesting The Contrarian Jan 2024 #22
Crime is a social construct. At this point, according to other articles, the police are "investigating" it, so no WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #24
Is it a crime? limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #28
blocking an IP address does nothing. edisdead Jan 2024 #81
Immediately pass a law that you have to be 21 years jimfields33 Jan 2024 #105
The world is getting away from me, too nt XanaDUer2 Jan 2024 #11
Same here NickB79 Jan 2024 #33
It could be viewed as rape by proxy. no_hypocrisy Jan 2024 #4
If you're playing an online game and you shoot and kill their avatar, is it murder by proxy? MyNameIsJonas Jan 2024 #6
The concept of a game depends on the common rules people accept when they play together. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #9
That doesn't make sense. Is it or isn't it rape? MyNameIsJonas Jan 2024 #64
It's too bad this is the article that introduced this incident to the board, because it's poorly written, and people WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #69
Or perhaps snowybirdie Jan 2024 #8
Why "or"? WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #10
Your sympathy is overwhelming. NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #53
I don't get this. Is raping programmed and allowed in the software? honest.abe Jan 2024 #70
no. and it shouldn't edisdead Jan 2024 #82
Dangerously watering down the concept in my eyes TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #7
I think there's a strange dynamic, motivated by the laudable desire to make sure rape is taken seriously... Silent3 Jan 2024 #17
Exactly LearnedHand Jan 2024 #61
Exactly edisdead Jan 2024 #83
This isn't new Sympthsical Jan 2024 #12
Oh man. Goldshire Inn. I made a toon on an RP server, went to Goldshire, and logged out traumatized. Jedi Guy Jan 2024 #59
I was an EQ2 guy, then dropped it for LOTRO. Xolodno Jan 2024 #63
Agree with almost everything edisdead Jan 2024 #84
Your post raises a question I've had since I found this thread; robbob Jan 2024 #102
this is a very poor article Takket Jan 2024 #13
It's not a news article. There are links to news articles about it in the article. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #14
great points and questions edisdead Jan 2024 #85
This is why Mossfern Jan 2024 #15
Depends where you live. OAITW r.2.0 Jan 2024 #32
Hahaha yeah books never have graphic content. edisdead Jan 2024 #86
People get "virtually" killed as well in games. So virtual murder charges? harumph Jan 2024 #16
As you can surely understand, one is part of the game, the other isn't. NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #55
Do we know that? edisdead Jan 2024 #87
Kick nt XanaDUer2 Jan 2024 #18
Surprised by some response. limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #19
If this girl felt violated by this then it should be investigated. Swede Jan 2024 #20
As soon as she started feeling uncomfortable she should have removed herself from that situation ripcord Jan 2024 #23
Who says she didn't? Whatever she experienced caused emotional and psychological trauma. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #26
I don't get your point? robbob Jan 2024 #103
Gamers design their avatars, physique, hair, clothes, give them names. Swede Jan 2024 #29
She could log off/exit game to save her avatar also EX500rider Jan 2024 #52
These trolls will move on to the next victim. Swede Jan 2024 #58
I'm not. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #21
If directed to me, I know. limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #30
I don't think many here disagree with it being harassment edisdead Jan 2024 #88
I'm confused. Can someone explain step by step ecstatic Jan 2024 #25
Depending on the game, you can hinder a person's progress. With real-time audio, people can describe what they WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #34
Yes. Just because they aren't physically attacking her it is emotional. LiberalFighter Jan 2024 #42
There is the appropriate word. Harassment. edisdead Jan 2024 #89
Is this satire? TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #27
It's 2024. Swede Jan 2024 #31
So 2024 satire? TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #35
What if the girl was your daughter? Swede Jan 2024 #37
She could have pushed the power button TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #39
Read this post. Swede Jan 2024 #43
My daughter would have enough sense to push the power button TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #44
Teens commit suicide over the stuff on the internet. Swede Jan 2024 #47
Cyber bullying is terrible TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #49
Just lay back and enjoy the ride. Swede Jan 2024 #50
You do understand that the avatar isn't real? TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #51
You do realise her pain was real? Swede Jan 2024 #54
Apparently unable to process that concept. NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #57
So do you think this is a criminal offense? The Contrarian Jan 2024 #66
Cyber bullying and harassment are very real and terrible things edisdead Jan 2024 #90
That is a catastrophic failure to instil coping skills, TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #109
Well they'd reply to you but they're dead. Swede Jan 2024 #110
What your daughter would (or woildn't) do is irrelevant. NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #56
but that question was posed to them... edisdead Jan 2024 #91
Young woman's description limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #36
That is sick behavior of them. They need to be blocked from using it. LiberalFighter Jan 2024 #41
I wonder how many rape victims edisdead Jan 2024 #92
Just thinking about how often my character was killed and his corpse teabagged in Halo multiplayer NickB79 Jan 2024 #38
Sounds like consent was involved all around. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #46
Nah, a lot of people get worked up big time over it NickB79 Jan 2024 #48
Why does the game have the option to rape young girls? LiberalFighter Jan 2024 #40
It doesn't. The players banded together to corner the avatar and verbally assault the player. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2024 #45
There ya go. Verbal assault. edisdead Jan 2024 #93
That is my question, why is Bettie Jan 2024 #62
it likely doesn't edisdead Jan 2024 #96
Men are prosecuted all the time for stalking, harassing, LearnedHand Jan 2024 #60
Those things are true. edisdead Jan 2024 #94
Good points LearnedHand Jan 2024 #107
Just take the headset off? Patton French Jan 2024 #65
How do you confirm a virtual rape? Ferrets are Cool Jan 2024 #67
Sacrificing an element of privacy? limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #74
Ok, let me try a different tack....how would a lawyer prove that she had been "virtually" raped? Ferrets are Cool Jan 2024 #76
That is admittedly problematic. limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #79
We are on the same page. Ferrets are Cool Jan 2024 #80
Then call it sexual harssment. edisdead Jan 2024 #95
Excellent, well-reasoned points LearnedHand Jan 2024 #106
A different word is needed. Rape has a legal definition. MineralMan Jan 2024 #68
Sounds like the cyber version of what we used to call an "obscene phone call." Iggo Jan 2024 #71
I'm dumb XanaDUer2 Jan 2024 #72
I am pretty sure I have never been as disappointed by a discussion here- coffeenap Jan 2024 #73
+1 berniesandersmittens Jan 2024 #75
I think that edisdead Jan 2024 #97
The game owners should imprison the avatars involved. Voltaire2 Jan 2024 #77
This is a serious question XanaDUer2 Jan 2024 #78
Ever hear of "tombstoning"? nt yagotme Jan 2024 #99
Yes, here XanaDUer2 Jan 2024 #100
Game world equivalent to tombstoning needs to be applied to them. nt yagotme Jan 2024 #101
Here is the legal definition of rape edisdead Jan 2024 #98
Watching people who have their identities wrapped up in text-only message boards Prairie Gates Jan 2024 #104
Maybe we can stop blaming the victim for using the wrong words to describe what happened to her? LearnedHand Jan 2024 #108
This is sexual harrassment Zeitghost Jan 2024 #111
Adding some thoughts limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #112

snowybirdie

(6,585 posts)
1. Sorry, but
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 05:58 PM
Jan 2024

I can't understand what the hell this is,all about. Was it virtual or actual? The world is getting away from me. How about taking off the dang eyeware? Dumb!

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
2. She was playing an immersive video game involving a headset and an "avatar" or character that moved the way she
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:01 PM
Jan 2024

moves in real life.

How about taking off the dang eyeware?
This was a game that incorporated the headset.

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
5. .
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:10 PM
Jan 2024

The problem is that these games are really immersive -- the fun of them is that you feel like you're in the game. This girl's avatar was attacked by multiple other avatars, meaning she was aware that other people were forcing her to view violent content containing a proxy of her, which would be psychologically and emotionally distressing, no matter how quickly you take the helmet off.

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
24. Crime is a social construct. At this point, according to other articles, the police are "investigating" it, so no
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 08:42 PM
Jan 2024

charge has been made. People could investigate an incident like this and see if there are parallels with online threats, personal threats over email or the telephone, threats in person, harassment, etc. I don't know the laws around those offenses in England so I don't know what the outcome might be here. It's certainly raising questions about whether it should be a crime, and if so, what kind.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
28. Is it a crime?
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:20 PM
Jan 2024

Wiser minds will have to suss that out. It should be a violation of terms of service and should result in the closure of the gaming account and/or blocking of the IP address. Most modern gaming environments have clauses which prohibit hate speech and other forms of misogyny or blatant bigotry. Meta could step in and do something responsible.

The end-user is also responsible. The parents could step in and block access to Meta and thereby resolve the immediate issue. There still remains a question as to whether there is a societal duty to criminalize the behavior.

Some of the less well-moderated gaming environments are breeding grounds for incels and neo-nazi wannabes. Misogyny in online gaming is a very real issue.

 

jimfields33

(19,382 posts)
105. Immediately pass a law that you have to be 21 years
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 03:29 PM
Jan 2024

old to play. 16 year olds have no business being on this type of platform.

 

MyNameIsJonas

(744 posts)
64. That doesn't make sense. Is it or isn't it rape?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 02:59 AM
Jan 2024

That seems to be the question here. If they put in the terms and services agreement that you can simulate sexual activity, even forcibly, like you can murder someone in another online game, you're saying then it wouldn't be rape? Okay. Then it's not rape. No one was raped.

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
69. It's too bad this is the article that introduced this incident to the board, because it's poorly written, and people
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 09:54 AM
Jan 2024

are thinking the actual question is "is this rape as I understand it in the criminal code" when the actual issue is how easy it is still is, decades after we've known it was a problem, to provide technology to people without any meaningful trust and safety teams, putting already vulnerable people at risk.

If they put in the terms and services agreement that you can simulate sexual activity, even forcibly, like you can murder someone in another online game, you're saying then it wouldn't be rape?
No, I'm saying that when people join an online platform, they're generally aware of the kind of experience they're going to have. Is this rape as defined under the local criminal code? Unlikely. Is this a metaphorical rape? A person could make an argument for that. Focusing on whether this was AcTuALLY rape or not ignores the person's trauma and makes it easy to handwave away other regulations that could have kept it from happening in the first place.

snowybirdie

(6,585 posts)
8. Or perhaps
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:25 PM
Jan 2024

a gamer could take off the headset and go for a walk to clear their head? Get in touch with the real world.

 

honest.abe

(9,238 posts)
70. I don't get this. Is raping programmed and allowed in the software?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:12 AM
Jan 2024

Seems bizzare that would be a feature of the system.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
82. no. and it shouldn't
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:46 PM
Jan 2024

It could be considered under all sorts of laws already on the books including exposing sexual content to a minor, harassment, and otjers.

Rape by proxy?

 

TheKentuckian

(26,314 posts)
7. Dangerously watering down the concept in my eyes
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:24 PM
Jan 2024

rather than expanding the definition.

Are there not enough obstacles to taking rape seriously without injecting virtual into it.

No, they will need to take screenshots, hit menu, and drop and then put in a harassment complaint.

 

Silent3

(15,909 posts)
17. I think there's a strange dynamic, motivated by the laudable desire to make sure rape is taken seriously...
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 07:06 PM
Jan 2024

...where people want to say, "Rape is rape!" and abolish all distinctions between all types of unwanted sexual interaction... I was about to say "unwanted sexual contact", but when you start considering meta-universe rape, even "contact" goes out the window.

However well-intended this is, I think it's a mistake. Severity of physical assault should matter. Force and coercion should matter. I think how much room there is for misunderstanding and miscommunication should matter.

"Rape is rape" is too simplistic. Hell, we have first, second, and third degree murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc. I don't think it should be so unspeakable to talk about rape having varying levels of severity too. Some unwanted sexual interaction (purely verbal) should be considered harassment, outside of the category of rape altogether.

On such a scale, I'd say meta-universe rape should rate pretty low, only considered more severe where its an adult knowingly assaulting a minor.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
83. Exactly
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:50 PM
Jan 2024

This is NOT rape.

depending on the parameters of the game and what the content the user agreed to be exposed to, there are all sorts of harassment and exposure laws that could be sought.

Online sexism, bullying, and harassment is not a new thing in video game culture but to call this rape must beyond insulting to actual rape victims.

Sympthsical

(10,876 posts)
12. This isn't new
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:45 PM
Jan 2024

I get the headline needs to make it punchier, "Dark New Future!" but sexual assault in virtual worlds and games has existed as long as the Internet has existed.

I remember way back in the 90s playing various games as a kid/teen where, if a player killed you, they mimicked sexually assaulting your corpse in a variety of creative and sometimes graphic ways. And these games weren't predicated on avatars being able to perform those kinds of acts. Where there's a shitty will, an asshole will find a way.

You can find all sorts of incredibly offensive things that would be criminal IRL done in game when it comes to sexual content. It's a running joke in World of Warcraft that you do not go near Goldshire Inn on a role-playing server unless you want to see some shit. I remember playing old school Counter-Strike matches where people figured out how to spray paint graphic porn on the walls of the arenas.

Generally speaking, it's up to the gaming company's content moderation to deal with the issues. Whether or not they do wildly varies. Nowadays, most companies will hand out suspensions or bans for abusive behavior, be that sexist/sexual, bigoted/racist, or bullying/harassment.

But is it actual criminal rape? No. Let's not be any more dystopian than we need to be. Find the aggressors, ban them from the service. That's what pretty much every online service does.

Of course, the article highlights another problem.

In addition, the immersive quality of the metaverse experience makes it all the more difficult for a child, especially, to distinguish between what’s real and what is make-believe.


Yeah. Kids shouldn't be on this shit. Where are the parents? The Internet doesn't have guard rails, which is why parents need to keep a sharp eye out, because the place is full of predators. I wouldn't let a kid within a country mile of a metaverse.

Jedi Guy

(3,428 posts)
59. Oh man. Goldshire Inn. I made a toon on an RP server, went to Goldshire, and logged out traumatized.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:43 PM
Jan 2024

You're right, the internet is full of assholes. Johnathan Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory was true when it was first posited twenty years ago and it's even more true now. Immersive VR just lets assholes be assholes in ever more immersive and realistic ways. The net is by no means the Wild West it once was and the bad elements have, for the most part, retreated to the Dark Web. But if you go for a spin down the old information superhighway, you're going to see some shit sooner or later.

Parents most definitely need to be aware of what their kids are doing and who they're doing it with, at least as much as they can. They can't possibly know every random yobbo their kid is playing Call of Duty with, and with people having friends lists in the thousands I don't see how they can realistically oversee that without turning their kids' lives into a digitally-enforced police state.

All the same, parents do have an obligation to talk to their kids, be aware of what's going on in their lives (digital and meatspace), and be willing to set and enforce healthy boundaries. That latter bit especially makes people leery since being your kid's friend is seemingly a lot more popular than being their parent these days, but it's right there on the tin where it says "parenting" not "friending." Parents who blithely assume their kids will be safe on the net are not living in the real (digital) world.

As for this specific incident, unless the law is written to include simulated, virtual sexual assault, I doubt there's much law enforcement can do, so it'd be down to Meta to police the space and ban the shitbirds. I'm sure they'll get right on that.

Xolodno

(7,317 posts)
63. I was an EQ2 guy, then dropped it for LOTRO.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 11:54 PM
Jan 2024

But cyber sex was easy to accomplish in EQ2, would occasionally see the screen shots. Never engaged in it because I assumed most of the females may actually be males. Someone I know created a female avatar instead of female, why? "If I'm going stare at an ass for several hours..."

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
84. Agree with almost everything
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:03 PM
Jan 2024

But there are some guard rails out there.

They will never catch everything. My kid plays gorilla tag on the occulus. I have to listen in and check up on him every now and again. But for other stuff I use the bark app for protecting him and his devices. It is pretty good but cannot catch everything. But that’s why it is a guard rail and not bubble wrap. These kids are growing up in a time where tech (and specifically this tech) is going to feed into their future. Keeping them from it during their teen years is a massive disservice to them. But like you say there is a lot of shit out there and there needs to be attention paid to it.

But politically how does that happen? Republicans on some states passed bills that require porn sites to verify peoples age. They wanted people to submit their drivers license online but there is a privacy concern there (for good reason). So how do we go about that? Or if this game was an adult content game and a minor checked into it and was exposed to sexual content, then what? Who all is to blame? The game manufacturers? The participants in the behavior? The minor? The minor’s parents?

There is a lot of law that is lacking because we do not have people in government that are up to the task if understanding the concepts and issues at play.

And yes as a longtime WoW player I know about goldshire, and all the other activities in game. I used to run a 300 person guild and some of the things that were going on in our teamspeak server were crazy!

robbob

(3,741 posts)
102. Your post raises a question I've had since I found this thread;
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 02:02 PM
Jan 2024

How, exactly, do they know this act was done by adults? Because the avatars were adult men? That’s stupid; this whole things sounds way more like something a bunch of horny 14 year olds would do “for fun”. The VR aspect of this definitely raises the ante of how disturbing a person would experience it, but in the end it’s probably stupid kids finding a way to turn a game into a gross expression of their unhealthy feelings about sex.

Takket

(23,509 posts)
13. this is a very poor article
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 06:52 PM
Jan 2024

It gives no information on why this is being investigated as a rape. With no context of the environment the reported victim was in or why they believe this was a rape, how are we to build an informed opinion as to whether this is a cause for concern?

How was the victim "raped" in a virtual environmental with the article says includes a personal boundary?

What does this environment and the people in it look like? Were the perpetrators using cameras to "expose" themselves? Or are there "virtual" genitals? Did they use their avatars to simulate some sort of sex act upon her? We're they able to verbally abuse the victim through microphones?

What options were available to the victim? Could they have "blocked" the attackers so they cannot see them? Could they have reported them to admins?

In a real life situation it is pretty much sufficient to say a victim was "assaulted" because everyone knows what they means. But with no concept of what this game looks like, or what happened, how can one draw any kind of opinion of this novel subject? Why should we believe Meta has done anything wrong as a company when we have no idea what these claims are based on?

And I say that as a person that has NOTHING to do with any Meta product, and doesn't want to. The idea that Meta "isn't doing enough" is totally believable to me. But this article reads more like a blog post from an angry mom of a victimized child than something written by a journalist. No useful information, no context, no pictures of what the environment looks like, no comments from the family, no comments from the police. One comment from Meta.

OAITW r.2.0

(31,625 posts)
32. Depends where you live.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:26 PM
Jan 2024

Check with your government approved book censor if you live in a Red State..

harumph

(3,115 posts)
16. People get "virtually" killed as well in games. So virtual murder charges?
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 07:06 PM
Jan 2024

This is so preposterous.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
87. Do we know that?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:11 PM
Jan 2024

I am not sure this story sets the parameters of the app.

For example there are tons of porn games out there. There are tons of games that have sexual content.

There just isn’t enough information about this, but even still to call it rape, when one could take the headset off is a bit much for me. Actual rape victims can’t just turn off the game. It may be harassment and it may be all sorts of things but I cannot see rape being defined here.

However, we just saw the orange blob get off on rape accusation because his genitals didn’t penetrate. So lord knows what the fuck the actual definition of rape is these days.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
19. Surprised by some response.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 08:24 PM
Jan 2024

If your character is killed, do you sue for murder? What utter BS.

Unless explicitly stated, online games do NOT list "avatar rape" as a game feature or goal. In many games the players expect to have their character "die" as part of the game experience. Player versus player is a mode around which entire games are built, games in which players intentionally try to "kill" other players. You expect to "die." You do NOT expect some random schlubs to traumatize you by symbolically raping your avatar. And, yes, of course the player can always choose not to play.

Just like a woman can choose to not walk past a construction site because she might receive "cat-calls." It's her fault, right? That seems to be the implication based on some responses.

Trivializing/normalizing/minimizing "rapey" behavior is a pretty f-ing stupid and insensitive thing to do.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
23. As soon as she started feeling uncomfortable she should have removed herself from that situation
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 08:42 PM
Jan 2024

Unlike physical rape she had that ability.

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
26. Who says she didn't? Whatever she experienced caused emotional and psychological trauma.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 08:51 PM
Jan 2024
Unlike physical rape she had that ability.
To clarify: Are you saying that people who are raped are unable to physically remove themselves from their situations and that's why it happens?

robbob

(3,741 posts)
103. I don't get your point?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 02:24 PM
Jan 2024

I mean, yes; a person being raped generally, if not in fact always, is unable to get away from the rapist. Whether it’s a violent situation or one where an acquaintance is forcing themselves on you in a coercive way it’s pretty clear that if the person could flip a switch and walk away they would.

Now, that’s not “why it happened”; it happened because a violent pig decided they have the right to abuse a fellow human for their own sick gratification.

Swede

(38,505 posts)
29. Gamers design their avatars, physique, hair, clothes, give them names.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:22 PM
Jan 2024

Identify with them. So she stays to save "herself." You don't have to understand that, but you have to understand it.

Swede

(38,505 posts)
58. These trolls will move on to the next victim.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:37 PM
Jan 2024

“This child experienced psychological trauma similar to that of someone who has been physically raped. There is an emotional and psychological impact on the victim that is longer term than any physical injuries,” a senior officer familiar with the case was quoted as saying by the news outlet. “It poses a number of challenges for law enforcement given current legislation is not set up for this.”

“But as I was asking them to ‘stop’, ‘go away’, I realised I needed to end this as their verbal harassment and sexual innuendos were getting increasingly aggressive,” she told the publication.

She pulled off the virtual reality headset but said she could still hear her attackers laughing and voices coming through saying, “Don’t pretend you don’t like it.”

https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/now-a-gang-rape-in-metaverse-how-sexual-predators-roam-free-in-the-virtual-world-13570602.html

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
88. I don't think many here disagree with it being harassment
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:13 PM
Jan 2024

But rape is a thing. A very real thing. To call it rape to me is somewhat insane.

ecstatic

(35,013 posts)
25. I'm confused. Can someone explain step by step
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 08:49 PM
Jan 2024

the logistics of a VR rape? Does the game coding allow for that (blocking an avatar in / preventing an avatar from moving and then a humping action?)???

WhiskeyGrinder

(26,503 posts)
34. Depending on the game, you can hinder a person's progress. With real-time audio, people can describe what they
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:29 PM
Jan 2024

envision their avatars doing to something else. It's like playing a video game together with an audio connection and having several adult men telling a young teen what they would like to do to her. No matter if she "hangs up," she still has to register that she was playing a game with people she may have trusted who suddenly decided to treat her like shit.

LiberalFighter

(53,544 posts)
42. Yes. Just because they aren't physically attacking her it is emotional.
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:40 PM
Jan 2024

It might be compared to the old days maybe still now of men calling women and harrassing them.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
89. There is the appropriate word. Harassment.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:16 PM
Jan 2024

Rape? No! Harassment (and potentially other things)? Yes!

 

TexasDem69

(2,317 posts)
39. She could have pushed the power button
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:36 PM
Jan 2024

Sad that someone was mean to her online but the idea that the police should get involved is beyond stupid. So far the most ridiculous story of 2024.

 

TexasDem69

(2,317 posts)
44. My daughter would have enough sense to push the power button
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:48 PM
Jan 2024

This remains the dumbest story so far in 2024. This is ridiculous, a non-story, and simply unbelievable that someone is pressing this issue.

 

TexasDem69

(2,317 posts)
49. Cyber bullying is terrible
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:09 PM
Jan 2024

And it’s truly sad that people suck so much. But the concept that the avatar was “raped” is stupid. I’m sorry that the individual had to go through this bullying but just stop with involving the police. Hit the power button, turn off the game, take a walk and get some fresh air.

 

TexasDem69

(2,317 posts)
51. You do understand that the avatar isn't real?
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:17 PM
Jan 2024

Really isn’t real. You get that, right? And the individual could have literally just turned off the game. You get that too, right? People are awful, but you do understand that video games aren’t real?

The story is so dumb that I can’t believe we’re even arguing about this.

Swede

(38,505 posts)
54. You do realise her pain was real?
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:31 PM
Jan 2024

Her distress is real. And the trolls and bullies will circle looking for these defenseless teens.

 

The Contrarian

(87 posts)
66. So do you think this is a criminal offense?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 09:15 AM
Jan 2024

If police were to find the individuals responsible, what do you think the charges should be? And what should the punishment be?

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
90. Cyber bullying and harassment are very real and terrible things
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:19 PM
Jan 2024

But rape is not virtual.

Rape has a definition and calling something outside of that definition rape is a very dangerous thing.

 

TheKentuckian

(26,314 posts)
109. That is a catastrophic failure to instil coping skills,
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 08:49 PM
Jan 2024

self reliance, mental resilience, perseverance over adversity, and will to fight and keep fighting until you win

If I could have logged off to evade bullying I would have bypass a lot of hurt, beatings, and trouble over years.

These kids have no concept of what it means to face those that mean them real harm or not having anywhere or anyone to run to, rendering them as soft as baby poop mentally and emotionally.

This is a disservice not a favor.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
36. Young woman's description
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:30 PM
Jan 2024

Taken from https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/now-a-gang-rape-in-metaverse-how-sexual-predators-roam-free-in-the-virtual-world-13570602.html

"In February 2022, London-based Nina Jane Patel spoke about how a gang of three to four avatars sexually harassed her within 60 seconds of joining Meta’s metaverse platform Horizon Venues. “They essentially, but virtually, gang-raped my avatar and took photos as I tried to get away,” Patel, co-founder and vice-president of metaverse research Kabuni Ventures, wrote in a post on Medium.com.

“My physiological and psychological response was as though it happened in reality,” she recalled.

Patel told CNBC-TV18 in an interview that she froze during the attack. She fumbled with the controllers while trying to use the safety features, which allow users to block and report. “But as I was asking them to ‘stop’, ‘go away’, I realised I needed to end this as their verbal harassment and sexual innuendos were getting increasingly aggressive,” she told the publication.

She pulled off the virtual reality headset but said she could still hear her attackers laughing and voices coming through saying, “Don’t pretend you don’t like it.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
92. I wonder how many rape victims
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:23 PM
Jan 2024

I wonder how many rape victims would have preferred to take off a headset to stop being penetrated.

This is ridiculous.

Is it disgusting behavior? Yes. It sure as shit is. But calling it rape is just insane.

NickB79

(20,265 posts)
38. Just thinking about how often my character was killed and his corpse teabagged in Halo multiplayer
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 09:35 PM
Jan 2024

When I was big into that 10+ yr ago.

NickB79

(20,265 posts)
48. Nah, a lot of people get worked up big time over it
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:07 PM
Jan 2024

YouTube is filled with videos of angry teens throwing their Xbox controllers after getting killed and teabagged.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/976730/discussions/0/5805689546863867152/?l=ukrainian&ctp=2

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
93. There ya go. Verbal assault.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:26 PM
Jan 2024

Rape? Nope.

Because someone FEELS as though they were raped doesn’t mean they WERE raped.

Bettie

(19,336 posts)
62. That is my question, why is
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 11:22 PM
Jan 2024

rape an allowable thing in this game? Seems like there should be some limits on that kind of thing.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
96. it likely doesn't
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:33 PM
Jan 2024

Unless ones appendages can reach through the headset and physically violate someone it doesn’t.

LearnedHand

(5,255 posts)
60. Men are prosecuted all the time for stalking, harassing,
Fri Jan 5, 2024, 10:50 PM
Jan 2024

sexually assaulting, and exposing girls to pornography online. Why is it different because this happened in virtual reality? Differences in the intensity of the victim’s experience of the assault because of the technology are irrelevant to the question of legality. I don’t understand why the cops are even questioning this. Oh wait. It’s yet one more excuse for the cops to blame the victim.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
94. Those things are true.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:29 PM
Jan 2024

They are also not rape.

If those things occurred then yes they should feel the consequences of THOSE actions. But to call it rape (basically out of emotion) is incorrect.

There are laws for a reasons and for them to mean anything the actions have to measure up to what those laws mean. We can’t just call something rape because the actions were disgusting. There are standards of laws that have to be met.

Harassment? Likely.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
74. Sacrificing an element of privacy?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 11:12 AM
Jan 2024

Mineral Man makes a good point in his post stating that "a different word is needed."

If you mean "how do you define a 'virtual rape'," I'd suggest it comes down to consent. The young woman in this story said "please stop." The people harassing her continued to sexualize and demean her. No means no even in the virtual realm.

If you mean "how do we catch the culprits," game servers maintain chat logs and can track IPs. Video and audio recording options are available. That places a burden of proof on the victim or the victim's family, but I don't see a way around it.

I think parts of society operate under an assumption of implied consent. Some men (and some women) believe that sexual advances or the sexualization of non-sexual situations is acceptable until or unless consent is denied. Trump's infamous "grab 'em by the ..." comment is an example of that mindset expressed in the physical world.

That is the issue. When you allow people to behave this way in games or in public you run the risk of producing the next Trump.

Ferrets are Cool

(22,545 posts)
76. Ok, let me try a different tack....how would a lawyer prove that she had been "virtually" raped?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:02 PM
Jan 2024

Trust me, I believe that this could happen in a game. I am wondering how she would prove it happened unless she was recording the game at the time.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
79. That is admittedly problematic.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:22 PM
Jan 2024

I don't think "virtual rape" will ever make it into the law books. It's too difficult to define and the concept of virtual rape subtly undermines the efforts of (mostly) women bringing charges against physical rape. A charge of harassment might more easily be brought to court because it's easier to understand as an unwanted assault.

The proof can only be provided through chat logs and screenshots or video/audio recordings unless a participant willingly discloses their participation. This proof would be more convincing if there is a recorded history of harassment that discloses a pattern of behavior.

The practical solution, as my daughter just reminded me, is to not play online multiplayer games. That is practical. I personally believe we do a disservice to our children by encouraging them to restrict their activities simply because unkind people like traumatizing children. In short, it's more of a societal problem and than a legal one.

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
95. Then call it sexual harssment.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:32 PM
Jan 2024

But it is not rape.

Calling it something that it very clearly isn’t, does not help. At all.

If one did the things in the real world that they did in the virtual one you could ‘t possibly call it rape. So how in the world are you going to convict someone of rape?

It is harassment. And possibly other crimes as well. Call it what it is.

LearnedHand

(5,255 posts)
106. Excellent, well-reasoned points
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 03:44 PM
Jan 2024

I hope we don’t keep excoriating the victim because she used the “wrong” words.

MineralMan

(150,710 posts)
68. A different word is needed. Rape has a legal definition.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 09:50 AM
Jan 2024

So, some other word needs to be used in cases like this.

Iggo

(49,697 posts)
71. Sounds like the cyber version of what we used to call an "obscene phone call."
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:22 AM
Jan 2024

No rape occurred. But the harassment is real.

XanaDUer2

(15,769 posts)
72. I'm dumb
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:27 AM
Jan 2024

The avatars held her avatar down and humped her avatar? Programming allows this!?

Sounds horrible. As someone upthread stated, I love books!

coffeenap

(3,293 posts)
73. I am pretty sure I have never been as disappointed by a discussion here-
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:32 AM
Jan 2024

People immerse themselves in these worlds. People live a good portion of their lives in these created universes. They make real friends there. They feel safe there. They get relief from tough reality there. It is not new. We olds (or intellectuals) might not understand why, we might even click our disapproving tongues, but it is true for millions. So, for people on DU, DU, ffs! to suggest just turn it off, or virtually walk away from an emotionally devastating event , is one of the coldest things I have seen on this empathy-filled site, and I have been here a very long time.

berniesandersmittens

(13,103 posts)
75. +1
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:01 PM
Jan 2024

Last edited Sat Jan 6, 2024, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Edit to add my perspective:

Whatever definition we use, this child was traumatized by the event.

The terror of being in a realistic feeling attack should not be dismissed.

Was it a physical rape on her body? I don't believe so myself, but dismissing her trauma is just sad.

We can debate the definition of rape in so many situations. As virtual reality becomes more immersive and technology advances, we really need to explore safety.


edisdead

(3,396 posts)
97. I think that
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:37 PM
Jan 2024

I think that the walk away or turn it off expression is in regards to whether or not it is actual rape. How many rape victims wish that they could have just turned it off or walked away and be left with it being harassment and not actual rape? I would bet 100%

It is likely harassment, for sure. And likely other crimes. But you can’t just start using words that do not fit. Words have meanings. Laws have meanings.

Voltaire2

(15,377 posts)
77. The game owners should imprison the avatars involved.
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:05 PM
Jan 2024

There might be a civil case for the incident, but there is clearly no legal case for rape here.

XanaDUer2

(15,769 posts)
78. This is a serious question
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 12:08 PM
Jan 2024

There are virtual prisons? I'm learning about a whole new world

XanaDUer2

(15,769 posts)
100. Yes, here
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:58 PM
Jan 2024

I know nothing about this stuff. I hope the ppl behind the avatars are held accountable for this

edisdead

(3,396 posts)
98. Here is the legal definition of rape
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 01:45 PM
Jan 2024

From https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.


At least that is the legal definition in the U.S.

I believe some crimes may have been committed here. But it clearly isn’t rape by definition in the U.S.

Prairie Gates

(7,325 posts)
104. Watching people who have their identities wrapped up in text-only message boards
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 02:28 PM
Jan 2024

and who take things entirely too personally even there comment on this story:

LearnedHand

(5,255 posts)
108. Maybe we can stop blaming the victim for using the wrong words to describe what happened to her?
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 03:50 PM
Jan 2024

And so should law enforcement. If they’re all grownups, they’d stop focusing on the word itself and start focusing on what the girl experienced. And use the laws that already protect young people online.

One OMG the headline writers have GOT to stop sowing chaos and confusion. Someone should be fired for that one.

 

Zeitghost

(4,557 posts)
111. This is sexual harrassment
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:28 PM
Jan 2024

Not sexual assault. Both are deplorable, but it's important to maintain a difference in the terms.

limbicnuminousity

(1,414 posts)
112. Adding some thoughts
Sat Jan 6, 2024, 10:46 PM
Jan 2024

The phrase "virtual rape" seems to bother some people while it offends others. It's obvious from the article, however poorly written, that nobody knows what to call it or what to do about it.

The author states: "The question of whether virtual rape is 'really rape'" The police described in the article state: "There is an emotional and psychological impact on the victim that is longer-term than any physical injuries." The psychotherapist in the article states: "Unlike in the physical world, there’s a lack of clear and enforceable rules in the metaverse." "Harassment," "assault," and "verbal abuse" all strike me as applicable descriptors depending on the specific circumstances.

I'm curious though. What line has to be crossed before society is obligated to step in and do something? Would anyone be okay with a group of teenaged boys calling their daughter a "whore" day in and day out every day at school? What if that harassment persisted through social media accounts due to doxxing and your child was being verbally assaulted every evening? What if they started scheduling regular times to verbally and/or physically taunt or threaten your child?

This is a personal question for me. Neo-nazis tried indoctrinating my kid a few years back and they did it online. From what I was able to discern, they like online gaming (as well as political forums). I resolved the situation but that resolution came at a deep and personal cost.

Casually dismissing the challenges of a virtual realm ignores the fact that a digital presence is required to live today. Email addresses and social media profiles are required in some schools and many jobs. Social media accounts are required if you want to network and advance in most fields requiring a college degree. Video conferencing is an increasingly common expectation in medicine or at work.

Protecting your own child is good and necessary but leaves a lot of people to fall through the cracks. The people who fall through the cracks become damaged. When they become badly enough damaged, they either need substantial investment in mental healthcare or they run the risk of becoming radicalized. Neither option benefits society.

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