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Does the Navajo Nation have a legitimate argument against sending human remains to the Moon?
Last edited Sun Jan 7, 2024, 05:43 PM - Edit history (2)
Posted without prejudice:
Navajo Nation’s objection to landing human remains on the moon prompts last-minute White House meeting
If successful, the commercial mission scheduled to launch Monday — dubbed Peregrine Mission One — will be the first time an American-made spacecraft has landed on the lunar surface since the end of the Apollo program in 1972. But Navajo Nation President Buu Nygren said that allowing the remains to touch down there would be an affront to many indigenous cultures, which revere the moon.
“The moon holds a sacred place in Navajo cosmology,” Nygren said in a Thursday statement. “The suggestion of transforming it into a resting place for human remains is deeply disturbing and unacceptable to our people and many other tribal nations.”
more...
What do you think?
Edit: It's settled. Human Remains Are Headed to the Moon, Despite Objections
That seems in line with the consensus here.
= new reply since forum marked as read
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Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)Why would anybody want to do that?
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)The cremains are not Navajo.
Basically they're saying dead human body parts are not allowed on the moon.
Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)I'm not saying it should be sent there or shouldn't be, but religious reasons aren't relevant. It's all pretty unusual, and it could bring unintended consequences.
XorXor
(690 posts)Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)It just seems that a lot of what we do tends to blow up in our faces. And do we really need an extra place to put dead bodies/ashes? It just doesn't make sense for people to do that. It's totally unnecessary just to do it because we can.
XorXor
(690 posts)It's just a symbolic thing to honor people who spent their lives studying the stars. When yo say consequences, are you thinking some supernatural things? Like the moon spirits are going get angry? Do you think it will knock the moon out of orbit? There has to be some explanation for why it's a bad thing.
Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)Obviously, there will have to be people who spread the ashes or inter the body. Those people could be bringing organisms with them unintentionally. I don't know if Elon Musk is going to take those remains up to the Moon. Seems like there might be a steady stream of people sending their loved ones up there. Will they take enough precautions? Once the trips become routine, they'll probably get lax on the rules for these trips. Just knowing human nature is enough to make me very cautious about this. Look at how humans have carried animals and plants outside of their habitats and spread them to other continents. Some plants and animals can cause a lot of problems when they're outside their ecosystems.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)They're just going to sit in a canister. The ashes are, of course, sterile.
Haggard Celine
(17,821 posts)I wonder how much they'll be charging people to send those remains up to the Moon. It'll be out of reach for all but a few. It still seems silly to me.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)Oh yes, quite possibly silly. But funerals and memorials are a vey subjective thing.
DBoon
(24,982 posts)death is big business. Dying is expensive.
Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)The conditions don't exist for organisms to survive there.
There's been plenty of organic material from Earth tossed onto the lunar surface by meteor impacts. If something biological were going to happen, it would have already happened. That, and the Apollo astronauts left plenty of organic material.
I understand your worries, but in this case I think they're misguided.
MistakenLamb
(791 posts)
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)Basically making the Moon an exclusive club for rich ashholes.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)I don’t think you understand what a lot of ordinary people pay for caskets, burials, etc.
dpibel
(3,941 posts)One vial of ashes shot to the moon is the entirety of the funereal expenses for these poor souls?
This might be a $12K add-on, y'know.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,635 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Which means half the population (including plenty who aren’t “the 1%” are paying more. $12,000 hardly seems out of reach of that’s what you’re inclined to do.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,635 posts)even $8,000 is out of reach for many. Thankfully many have insurance to help pay those costs. But not everyone does.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)Many people like to bury a body in an agreed place, used by many for this. This is a cemetery - if attached to a religious place, a graveyard. This means a lot to them.
Other people like the remains to go to somewhere that had a meaning for the dead person. This might be somewhere they went, or somewhere that held a special place in their thoughts.
Often, this helps the living to feel a sense of completeness about the dead person's life.
You may not care what happens to a body, or may want it to be useful (eg donated to science), but you'll find there are many people who do care about where the remains end up. This is common across all kinds of cultures, through the ages.
Igel
(37,535 posts)Perhaps mine it?
Drop stuff onto it for research, leave unwanted equipment and parts behind, maybe crash things into it?
Their sacred's been reduced from an actor and deity to a piece of rock with a coating of dust that's subject to the same laws with no more agency to act on it than an Israeli artillery shell.
nocoincidences
(2,489 posts)We seriously messed with their culture, and I am very sorry.
But I must state the obvious---
The moon belongs to everyone.
demigoddess
(6,675 posts)And that is a lot of fuel used and pollution put into our atmosphere for taking them to the moon. Bury them here or cremate them, period.
edisdead
(3,396 posts)EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Peregrine Mission One: the lander will carry multiple payloads
By May 2019, Mission One had 14 commercial payloads including small rovers from Hakuto, Team AngelicvM,[5] and a larger rover from the Carnegie Mellon University named Andy that has a mass of 33 kg (73 lb) and is 103 cm (41 in) tall.[6] A small rover, weighing 1.5 kg (3.3 lb), named Spacebit is included, and it moves on four legs.[7][8][9] It is a technological demonstrator and will travel a distance of at least 10 m (33 ft).[10] Other payloads aboard the lander include a library, in microprint on nickel, which will include Wikipedia contents and Long Now Foundation's Rosetta Project
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_Mission_One
Model35mech
(2,047 posts)I am not aware of anyone being given any sort of title to lunar real estate
But, I expect that to come soon.
As lunar visitation/colonization becomes common, I also expect that the moon will be subdivided into allotments for some, but not all of the countries on Earth, much as Antarctica was subdivided post ww2
Attilatheblond
(8,876 posts)or send up drilling equipment.
I share the Navajo distaste/disgust for this planned moon shot, but am puzzled regarding trying to block the moon shot on religious grounds while the destruction of Earth, which is also sacred, goes on unabated, including drilling/mining on many tribal lands.
Seems efforts would better serve if the peoples who revere nature would put the efforts into election sane people instead of tilting at the windmills of capitalism.
JohnSJ
(98,883 posts)stolen from them from treaties violated. This isn’t one of them.
sinkingfeeling
(57,834 posts)corporation have the right to litter there?
former9thward
(33,424 posts)So is the moon off base to anyone? How about Mars?
sinkingfeeling
(57,834 posts)to make tons of money by using a global place/resource? At least with the fossil fuel companies they have to compete for 'leases'?
In my mind, there's a difference between leaving behind some metal scraps and canisters of human remains.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Some cannisters of human remains will have absolutely no effect on it.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)the cost to loft even 1 ounce of material to the moon is... astronomical.
We are talking about a tiny dot of an ash. Probably smaller than a micro-dot.
Eko
(9,993 posts)to explore other places and make money doing so. If not then we wouldn't be here in the good ol USA. We have seen enough of the wrong way for the past,,, forever,,, to at least not make that mistake. Moon's pretty big, some canisters are not going to do anything but become a footnote in history, and an interesting one. Now lest say they want to take up thousands, sure that is a conversation we should have but lets not make a mountain out of a molehill.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Every manufacturer/service provider uses global resources…that they’ve paid for or legally required.
Perhaps the State should have control over “the means of production”?
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)do you access that aren't monetized?
I'd say metal containers are more of a concern than a few ashes on dust.
RobinA
(10,478 posts)about "using" a global resource, but I'd like to see any rulemaking on the subject to be based on something other than [name your group] reveres it. My personal belief reveres the sea, but I can't run around telling other people what to do around it. Not that I wouldn't take advantage if I could. 
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)I see no problem with sending them to the moon.
Eko
(9,993 posts)Wow, glad we aren't fam.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)to be the one offered so it your not the tribes.
Progressive dog
(7,602 posts)a wasteful use of resources but is not going to make the moon different than it is now.
petronius
(26,696 posts)in this context. And the proposed project is an utterly insignificant impact on the lunar surface.
So my position is to reject the Navajo objection (while agreeing that the Navajo have as much right as anyone to go remove and dispose of the objects whenever they choose)...
The Moon belongs to all of mankind. At some point in the future (barring social collapse or nuclear Armageddon), humanity will establish permanent colonies there, Mars, Titan, etc. That will necessitate the burial of bodies and/or the spreading of cremated remains on non-Earth surfaces. It also requires extensive mining, construction, tunneling, melting of ice, all likely similarly classified by the Navajo religion as "defacing" the Moon.
This has nothing to do with littering a dead world, or the argument about rich people wasting their cash on stupid things, though those arguments are used to deflect discussion from the core issue. Accepting the Navajo argument essentially makes lunar exploration off-limits to the US. Though I'm sure other nations like China will have no problem stepping in in our place.
Sneederbunk
(17,488 posts)
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,953 posts)
Maru Kitteh
(31,759 posts)Not particularly a fan myself, but there it is.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,953 posts)
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)If humanity wants to survive long term then we need to get off this planet and colonize elsewhere. If our tech develops to the point we can feasibly start a colony on the moon, Mars, or elsewhere in space, then it should be done. Keeping all our "eggs" in a single basket is dumb. Earth will inevitably be rendered uninhabitable in the future. Could be climate change, could nuclear war, or it could be a giant rock smacking the planet again. Its guaranteed to happen at some point. For humanity to survive we need to spread to ensure one single event cannot wipe us out entirely.
Eko
(9,993 posts)
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)Reduce human population and footprint on Planet Earth and respect each other and other forms of life.
Before humanity has the ability to colonize the Moon, human population will crash. If human population crash is not that immediate and technology invented, few humans will benefit at the cost of many as humanity digs a deeper hole.
Humans had best learn to live better with each other and Planet Earth.
A reduction of human population will happen, civilization has the choice in how ugly or kind.
Think most of human struggles at present are akin to rearranging the deck chairs as the Titanic sank with various parties grabbing while the grabbing remains good. The Earth could be a heaven of parks with less than 2 billion sane humans and current technology.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)Asteroids have hit the planet before and they will hit again in the future. It's inevitable. To ensure that such an impact is doesn't wipe out humanity then we need to get humanity onto other worlds besides Earth.
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)It is factual.
What part would you have any push back on?
The existence of asteroids, that they have hit the Earth before, that the effects were devastating, that the Earth could be struck again, or that the impacts in the future could not be devastating?
Have we entered white Jesus riding in on his V8 Hemi powered dinosaur with an AR-15 blasting in each hand territory?
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)in each hand territory?".
Are you accusing me of being a religious fanatic? Far from a gun nut too.
Think religions should be cultural mythologies, superior historic architecture, etc. not the mental illness seed used to control, grift, and justify maltreatment of other humans and life forms.
As explained above, think nukes and the climate change / extinction event combo are more immediate threats before serious going off the planet and things humans can do something about.
Comparing the immediate likelihood of asteroid impacts is ridiculously childish.
Pro science.
Have you read Philip K. Dick? 😜
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)I'm not saying we divert all research and resources to colonization. What I am saying is we do not divert fully away from it. Technology will advance and colonization may become feasible. If it does, then we need to embrace it and get off of this planet. Not abandon it, but keeping all your eggs in the same basket is stupid. Earth WILL be rendered uninhabitable in the future regardless of our actions. That's not in dispute. It could happen next year or it could happen 10 million years from now. Humanity may never achieve the level of technology needed to move off world, but we need to keep looking into it. And if we reach that level then we need to utilize it to move off to another planet. Humanity is doomed for extinction by staying put on Earth. It has a chance to survive longer if we colonize elsewhere, if we can last long enough to develop the necessary tech.
PufPuf23
(9,852 posts)Have no qualms about humans exploring and going to places off Earth.
Immediate danger is some party starting to throw nukes which would put human endeavor to destroy our habitat on steroids.
A reality is climate change and an associated extinction event. Biodiversity is how life on the planet heals from major changes. Extinction is not always that obvious.
The Earth will get hit by an asteroid. Maybe humans will have the technology to get off planet in a meaningful and permanent way before the asteroid impact. Threats to human survival are in a different timescale than life on Earth destroying asteroid impact.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)This rock will not be habitable no matter how much of a paradise it is made into.
Neither the planet nor the sun won't allow it.
The sun is going to be a red giant maybe consuming the planet and if not charring it. In a couple billion years, the story ends.
Even before that in a few hundred million years Earth will likely not be able to sustain mammallian life because of tectonic shifts and the formation of the super continent generating too much CO2 though a small percentage of the planet may be habitable, it is unwise to but all the eggs in that basket.
We could take an asteroid impact, a super volcano eruption, or any sort of cosmic accident and be wiped out before any of that.
Anything less than the end of the main sequence stars is not even bothering to check the day planner if we are talking long term for the species.
We have only just begun but it is always unwise to keep all the eggs in one basket.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)Will it get more dead, barren & airless? Or the opposite?
Oneironaut
(6,299 posts)None yet at least. There are no resources on the moon that would be worth colonizing it for.
BannonsLiver
(20,589 posts)I mean what if there’s bacteria on the container, and it lands, and subjugates other bacteria!11. 
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)This is not For All Mankind, this is the opposite of that.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)We need to get the bulk of humanity off this particular rock and start spreading our eggs out of this one basket.
boston bean
(36,930 posts)Can we keep the mystical beliefs out of it.
I am sure the moon doesn’t care.
Feel same about all religious ideologies. The world should not revolve around them.
As humans, we are never going to do more than spend a short time off this planet in physical form. I think so much has been wasted on trying to get there when the odds are as good as a grown man crawling back into the uterus that bore him.
Throwing our trash and unwanted rich white people remains all over the moon is no more than a mental masturbation activity. Our species needs to get its collective head out of its collective ass and recognize that other people matter and we are not the best arbiters of their beliefs.
What I see on this thread, claims the Navajo don't deserve this recognition, sounds really familiar and ugly.
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)What does it take in resources to get someplace else?
How much of our brains go unused?
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)Do you also hate telescopes and the space shuttle? Do you hate movies? Do you hate technology? Do you hate the internet?
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)But do carry on if it makes you feel like you told me. 
tavernier
(14,443 posts)marybourg
(13,640 posts)
Captain Zero
(8,905 posts)tavernier
(14,443 posts)I know the category B plan comes with benefits. Dental and mental.
Mountainguy
(2,145 posts)Whatever they put there isn't going to impact anyone, if they worship a giant empty rock, or not.
DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)No group has the right to impose their religious beliefs on others.
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)It isn't really a religion but since WE labeled their way of life a religion we can now condemn their concerns as though they are those of some evangelical group? What if our assumptions about what they are saying is the problem?
It's not like we don't have over 500 years of a bad record or anything.
Mountainguy
(2,145 posts)will be impacted by some extra dust on the moon?
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)I'm going to take the opportunity here to remind those of you who belittle the Navajo for having this objection that so many here were and still are harping on every thread that the israelis have the right to blast thousands of innocent humans to oblivion because they mean nothing to you in your every day western world lifestyle. Claims that no matter what becomes of the innocent is justified because hamas.
So is that any less a case of telling other cultures how to live because somehow we are now deciding that we know better and that things will go how we decide because, well, the people we don't care about don't deserve any compassion because we can't understand them?
What I see on DU about this issue is nothing less than pejorative discrimination of the most hideous kind and if I said anything close to these things about jews or xtians I would be banned from the site.
I am extremely offended by it and when I try to reason with anyone about it, this is the kind of response that is offered.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)does not affect the "way of life" of the Navajo at all. This is not "telling the Navajo how to live". Does the existence of a bit of unused fuel in an Apollo lander on the Moon affect how the Navajo live?
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)My point is made.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)Your point seems to be "I won't address any other argument, because I know I'm right".
In what way does the Navajo "way of life" (the phrase you prefer) change when there are cremated remains on a lunar lander, rather than a recording, or fuel, or ...?
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)I'm not Navajo, you'd have to ask them.
What I do know is that a headline was produced which set about a pile on of insensitive imperialist bullshit and whataboutism that illustrates how "our" society has viewed and dismissed the indigenous peoples of the continent "our" society stole from them by brut force. Nothing has changed there... in over 500 years.
Culture? Way of life? Belief system? Which term would you choose so that we can get beyond that red herring part of the arguments made here?
Truly, if there's a double standard in this country, this dismissive attitude is a flashing red light of an example.
What culture? And how is it that "those people" can make such a claim and expect "us" to take them seriously? ...is what I'm seeing in nearly every comment on this topic here on DU. It's very disappointing to say the least.
I guess only some lives matter.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)but instead are saying "the Navajo have been treated appallingly in the past, so no one should have to wonder if their arguments about the Moon are legitimate or not". And I can't take you seriously when you try to argue like that.
"I guess only some lives matter."
Well, that's a ridiculous appropriation of a far more serious problem - one that involves a loss of life.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)to the I/P issue. The Navajo nation has a right to object, and we have the ethical duty to take their views into consideration. I see the idea of monetizing the moon as the beginning of a very slippery slope with possible serious consequences.
The Earth needs the moon to do it's job.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Any more than we have to take Muslim views about portraying Mohammed or Christian views about gay marriage into consideration. The right to hold religious beliefs doesn’t include the right not to be offended. They can live the way they want and the rest of us can choose to live differently.
Response to brooklynite (Reply #129)
brooklynite This message was self-deleted by its author.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)I wasn't clear in my message. Taking someone's beliefs into consideration does not mean that they should be the major factor in decision making. It's important that people know that they have been heard even if decisions don't go their way.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Everyone has a right to express an opinion. Nobody has a right to demand people listen.
If the Navajo Nation was saying the election should be overturned and Trump should be President, nobody here would feel they deserved to be heard. The fact that their moon concerns are “spiritual” makes no difference.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)It helps me respond knowing what their concerns are so I can better make my case.
If someone makes a demand, then I request that they justify that demand.
This is just me, the way I am. I like to know that I've been heard even though a request of mine is denied.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Instead the content seems to be...
Some anti Israel blather.
Expressing feelings.
Some guilt tripping.
A call for compassion.
A declaration that disagreement on the topic is discrimination.
A statement of having taken offense.
JI7
(93,615 posts)and them objecting to that which is understandable.
But these are not the beliefs of many others. We can't conduct science based on people's beliefs.
2naSalit
(102,780 posts)Who actually have a voice that anyone listens to.
Response to 2naSalit (Reply #29)
JI7 This message was self-deleted by its author.
JI7
(93,615 posts)There are many that thing cremation is bad.
2naSalit
(102,780 posts) Eko
(9,993 posts)So now what?
Eko
(9,993 posts)Even cars crash and this is infinitely more complicated than your car. You know what I find funny in this? People finding it hilarious that a scientific project crashed and burned because of what some people believe. Not what some people think, because thinking has at least an element of logic. But what they believe with no evidence at all. How are you on burning the house of the deceased? Do you think the Navajo nation can and should do this? I mean that is one of their beliefs. I have no problem with saying I think that is a wrong belief. You are adding to climate change, you are destroying a much needed resource, and wealth is transferred to the next generation in property such as houses. How does that make sense to anybody? It doesnt. So, ok.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)those of the survivors or the expired who by definition would not share those beliefs because they purposefully would have sought this service.
Angleae
(4,801 posts)Wonder Why
(7,008 posts)But so is the Navajo argument.
On the other hand, sending Trump to the moon as an experiment to see if a human can survive the trip and the landing is perfectly acceptable to me. In fact, use our biggest rocket and send as many of his co-conspirators as possible along with him is okay if it is done this year. He can be dictator. They can be his food.
JI7
(93,615 posts)but not based on these type of beliefs.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_Mission_One
IowaGuy
(788 posts)His remains are not being deposited on the moon, but rather are contained in the module that carry"s the lunar landing module. Once the landing module undocks, the remaining part of the rocket will be redirected to deep space and my neighbors remains and that module will be put into a large elliptical orbit around the sun.
Arne
(3,609 posts)A real estate company twenty years ago sold me one acre for $28.95.
I have the title, deed and included part of a crater.
They were also offering Mars.
My Lunar retirement property is now worth $149.
It was in view about a week ago.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)Is it a silly thing to do and a waste of money? Absolutely. But their beliefs don't get to dictate what happens up there.
Easterncedar
(6,266 posts)So rich fucks get to poison them for their profit and we get to breathe and drink and die. All fair!
LiberalFighter
(53,544 posts)Personally I would not want it happening either.
How much are the suckers paying to do it?
Sewa
(1,606 posts)I think I’m on a right wing site . Why the hostility over such a benign subject. 💀✌️
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)No one is obligated to heed a religion they do not share, no person has the right to impose their religious beliefs on anyone else.
This sort of crap grows tiresome....
TxGuitar
(4,340 posts)A person's religion tells them what to do, it doesn't tell me what to do
cabotnn22
(152 posts)The moon isn't owned by them or anyone (yet). If people want their remains scattered on the moon, they have that right.
Abolishinist
(2,956 posts)Surely we can work this out.
Mossfern
(4,715 posts)wish to ship the remains of their dead to the moon.
This is not just an issue for the US.
DemocraticPatriot
(5,410 posts)since I would not be sympathetic to any objections of members of the christian or other earthbound religions to human mortal remains being sent to the moon, I likewise do not support the Navajo objection to the same....
(I may sympathize with them somewhat, but I do not support their objection,
since it is likewise based 'upon religious grounds' )
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)than other people on our culture do. Those spirits can be really dangerous. They are not friendly ghosts.
ratchiweenie
(8,215 posts)
Red Mountain
(2,342 posts)that religious belief is not a great starting point for policy decisions.
ANY religion.
HAB911
(10,440 posts)EOM
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_Mission_One
cbabe
(6,642 posts)reparations for all taken from and damage done to them.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)The Navaho speak for me on this. This is utter bullshit. Just No.
XorXor
(690 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 8, 2024, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm not seeing the issue, but there does seem to be a small minority line yourself who take great issue with this. I've yet to see a well articulated reasoning for the harm caused. The best I've seen is that it will lead to more activities on the moon. Which in that case the issue isn't about this, but about all moon related missions.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)and for what? As a garbage dump for human remains? What benefit offsets this idiocy?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)Private companies can navigate the open ocean, and even fish there to remove resources; the ocean is not privatized. Private companies can make for-profit trips to Antarctica, though it is not "privatized".
Though you may be atheist, consider that calling human remains "garbage" is offensive to most of humanity. Maybe you need to think about your language before proclaiming how offended you feel.
There is no particular benefit from this, but the same can be said for a lot of funeral or memorial arrangements.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)And yes it is garbage. It is human waste.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privatize
There's no point in you using English words if you don't understand them. And trying to shock people by saying human remains are "garbage" just shows you're not arguing in good faith.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)bullshit commercial moon enterprise to go clean up this mess and blast it off into space? There are no property rights involved?
Good to know. Thanks.
Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #95)
Post removed
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)and people pay money for this?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)There are either no property rights associated with this ‘stuff’ and it is freely disposable by anyone, or there are property rights and it isn’t. You seem to not be committing to either.
Anyway, how about stuff we can all agree is garbage? How about we start blasting all the plastic unrecyclable shit we don’t know what to do with to the moon? Aside from the ridiculous economics, any objections?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,201 posts)XorXor
(690 posts)How about if they took the Chinese rovers or did something to the Indian rovers? Would that be wrong because those were not put there by private companies? Is it safe to say the issue you have isn't about human remains, but rather private activities on the moon? Are you opposed to any private activities in space? Such as the private LEO launches by companies like SpaceX and Boeing that have delivery contracts to ISS and satellite launches? Does this also extend to private companies like ULA that provide the launch services?
As for using the moon as a dumping ground. I don't think that's an argument being made in good faith. Particularly since one of the main complaints is that it's "rich white assholes" (I question the validity of that characterization, though) spending large amounts of money to destroy the moon with their small canister of ashes. If it costs $16k to send a small canister of ashes to the moon, no one is going to spend that amount (or more) to send a plastic bottle to the moon. This isn't about dumping trash. Human remains are not viewed as trash in most cultures. If the goal was to simply dispose of the ashes (or anything else), there are far more effective ways of doing so. I feel like this is an obvious point that is being ignored intentionally.
EX500rider
(12,581 posts)for nuclear waste etc.
A place with no air, no life forms and a high & low temps of 250f+/208f - is hard to hurt.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)See how that goes…lol.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)see how that goes...lol
Emile
(42,283 posts)TxGuitar
(4,340 posts)is irrelevant.
Kid Berwyn
(24,377 posts)The moon isn’t a cemetery.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)than usable land if not for the costs and effects of transport.
We have all kinds of good land that could be used for homes and farms storing corpses, that seems far more of a waste.
Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)As long as it's not their own remains being sent there, it's not something they should have a say in.
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)for whatever purpose. In the past we had men playing golf there. Hope no one got too offended about that.
markbark
(1,631 posts)and can find no records of any objections from 1969-1972.
They're objecting to canisters of cremains on "their" moon?
Don't they realize that in addition to all the hardwareleft up there, that there are literally bags of sh!t on the moon near the landing sites? (to make room for rock samples astronauts dumped damned near everything they didn't need anymore overboard before lighting their engines to return to orbit)
Scrivener7
(59,519 posts)they know what to do with. While others work three jobs and can't keep a roof over their children's heads.
If we aren't going to eat the rich, at least we MUST tax them so we don't have to deal with ridiculous scenarios like this bullshit.
Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)People do lots of things with their money that other people think is stupid. This seems like one of the more harmless ones. There's certainly plenty of things for you to get offended about. How about totally refurbishing a car from the 1930s?
Scrivener7
(59,519 posts)
Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)I'm just not finding any particular reason to single this out.
I guess I could put you in the "likes getting offended by random stuff" column.
Scrivener7
(59,519 posts)offend you at all, have at it! Enjoy!
Crunchy Frog
(28,280 posts)and thoughts that I don't have.
I think it will be better if I put you on ignore.
Scrivener7
(59,519 posts) Arne
(3,609 posts)DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)This show actually depicted a violent confrontation between US Astronauts and Soviet Cosmonauts
elocs
(24,486 posts)Goodheart
(5,760 posts)For example, I think the Earth is sacred and yet you bury your remains here. You don't own the Moon, sorry... not legally, spiritually, or otherwise.
hunter
(40,688 posts)We're in the "Here, hold my beer..." phase of sending humans into space.
I doubt that natural-born humans will ever have a significant presence in space beyond low earth orbit.
Space will belong to engineered beings who can walk around on places like mars stark naked, or on the moon with minimal protection.
BootinUp
(51,316 posts)Freethinker65
(11,203 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)…to “I hate rich people”.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)and taking ownership their argument and switching it with one of their own "for them".
The "anti-colonizers" are sure some controlling, disrespectful, infantilizing, colonizing, appropriating types sometimes!
They’re arguing from an absurd religious standpoint.
With that being said, can we as humans please leave the damn moon alone unless going there is for the good of humanity and not the vain egos of billionaires?
Oneironaut
(6,299 posts)where people tried to block new telescopes on a mountain because their sacred sky fairy lives up there or something. It was completely absurd.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)made yet.
I think it lies in how the moon and the resources there are managed along with space junk which is not the argument being made that I can tell
Abolishinist
(2,956 posts)as it looks like this one ain't gonna make it.
It appears that a hair sample from JFK was on the journey as well.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/peregrine-mission-one-lunar-lander-with-jfk-s-dna-suffers-anomaly/ar-AA1mDJdq
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)Abolishinist
(2,956 posts)Our cosmos’ final fate is a long and frigid affair that astronomers call the Big Chill.
Whoops, wrong photo. Oh well.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)and if not, a hell of a run.
LiberalFighter
(53,544 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)If Nichelle Nichols or who ever wants to risk her soul being lost to the void that is still her call.
Pending any actual arguments maybe even if through the lens of the tribes beliefs and how they would be harmed or feel they would be, I'm putting this in a similar category as gay marriage.
If you don't want to be gay married then don't get gay married but you have no right to dictate someone else cannot. Same...same with sending your ashes to Luna.
It is hard for me to believe there is any sacred tradition even addressing the matter in the least but I'd sure be curious to see or hear if they were looking so far ahead or so holistically to have even imagined the possibility in order to oppose it, aspire to it, or weigh in at all.
LeftInTX
(34,286 posts)They said they would be praying inside and keeping curtains closed.
https://www.thv11.com/article/news/local/arizona/navajo-beliefs-surrounding-the-eclipse-explained/91-465341233
At least they didn't try to tell us that we couldn't look at the eclipse, so it's fine with me! Their business, not mine.
viva la
(4,598 posts)It's kind of creepy. I mean, if this is Neil Armstrong's remains, maybe?
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)In a padded mahogany coffin?
Every choice doesn’t need to be logical.
viva la
(4,598 posts)I just need to point out that "mahogany" looks funny, even though I know it's spelled right.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)Chainfire
(17,757 posts)(nor, any other religion) I certainly don't approve of the commercialization of the Moon, but it is, most likely, inevitable. It is only a matter of time before some entity claims vast areas of the Moon as theirs and wars will be fought over it. It is who we are and what we do.