The cultural sensitivity here sometimes amazes me

[orangecrush]

Especially when it comes to Native American culture, which is rich in spiritual wisdom and practical knowledge for living in harmony with this world...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218583597

[sinkingfeeling]

1. If I were forced, at gunpoint, to declare my religious belief,

I'd claim that of the Navajo.

[Easterncedar]

2. Yeah. The responses upset me

I have such high expectations for this community. Sometimes disappointing

[Sympthsical]

3. This seems patronizing and paternalistic

Has a hint of "noble savage" vibes.

Would we be entertaining this if a Christian sect decided the moon was sacred?

No, we would not.

The history of NA treatment is atrocious. But the solution isn't to condescend to them.

[orangecrush]

7. "noble savage"?

Did you actually just say that on D.U.?

[Sympthsical]

10. Do you know what that is?

It's when the dominant culture (usually white people) have paternalistic and simplistic views of Native cultures based on white-washed idealizations they find more comfortable and soothing to imagine rather than allowing for the complexity of circumstances.

Basically, it's when white people treat Natives like children and do not assign to them the same complexity and variation in culture and history that they afford themselves.

It's a liberal criticism of paternalistic racism.

[orangecrush]

11. No, I didn't know

Thanks for explaining it to me.

[Oneironaut]

20. It's the name of a long-running movie cliche in Hollywood.

Native Americans were portrayed in a very patronizing, racist way of being “unsophisticated, magical people” compared to the white characters in the film. Westerns commonly had this trope.

It’s like how Hollywood still continues to show Japanese Samurai as agrarian warriors with excellent sword combat skills, rather than portraying their true complexity (as statesmen, craftsmen, etc.). It’s so annoying.

[Silent3]

55. I don't know that "unsophisticated" is always part of it

I've seen the "noble savage" trope played to show the so-called "savage" people as being smarter, kinder, and wiser than the white man villains of a story.

[Ponietz]

76. Tonto accompanied the Lone Ranger

Tonto, in Spanish, means “silly” or “stupid”.

[Silent3]

84. I didn't say ALL depictions, did I?

Just pointing out there are variations on the "noble savage" trope. I don't know that Tonto even fits into the trope at all.

[Happy Hoosier]

47. It is a common trope...

… it represents a patronizing way to representing natives in a “positive” light. The term is commonly used in literary criticism.

[orangecrush]

63. Thanks so much!

[stopdiggin]

16. 100%

I found the objection to the moon burials rather ludicrous - for more or less the same reasons that I would find the claims ludicrous from any other group or demographic. Neither singling out for ridicule due ethnicity - nor pandering to constructs and beliefs that I simply don't find any agreement with.

[TheProle]

24. This is exactly right. K&R

[TxGuitar]

4. I wouldn't call it cultural insensitivity

It's a flat out ridiculous notion no matter who would suggest it. Just because it's a NA belief doesn't make it any less ridiculous than if the Pope said it. It's the sort of nonsense that holds our society back.

[mathematic]

5. Native Americans aren't magic.

They live in houses, drive cars, and use the internet. These things do not become more harmonious with the world just because you like the idea of magic.

[orangecrush]

8. Thanks for simplifying it

It makes it so much easier for me to understand.

[obamanut2012]

6. Unless they are Navajo cremains, why do they get to decide this?

I do not think the Moon is sacred.

[orangecrush]

9. Yep, we've been such great stewards of the earth

Let's spread our wonderful skills in maintaining environmental balance to other planets!

I can't wait to look up on a full moon night and see the Pepsi hologram!

[stopdiggin]

17. so you are proposing that NA

shall have control and jurisdiction over the moon .. ?
How about other cosmic bodies .. ?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

23. They don't want "control" or "jurisdiction"

Maybe a modicum of respect and consideration.

Can non-religious people express disapproval of this stupid predatory BS disguised in Star Trek fandom.

[obamanut2012]

31. I'm Pagan, the Moon is imporant to me for some rites

The Navajos need to let it go. They have no right to force their religion onto someone. We do not need to consider their stance on this, or Neo Pagans who object.

[stopdiggin]

35. way I see it, they are advocating that their precepts and beliefs should overrule

Last edited Wed Jan 10, 2024, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)

and take precedence over the wishes, rights (and beliefs) - of another family that feels that this is a dignified and respectful resting place for a loved one's remains. And I don't see (under any logic or ethics that I would subscribe to) where they should have a greater say or influence in the matter.

[orangecrush]

45. Well, maybe not

[hunter]

21. The sky is already full of garbage we've put there...

... and we haven't got a clue how we'll clean it all up.

Just like fossil fuel wastes and global warming it's one more horrible problem we're dumping on future generations.

I find myself in opposition to most space projects, especially commercial space projects.

[EX500rider]

27. Literally impossible to hurt the moons environmental balance

As it has none.
Airless lifeless dust covered rock with temperature swings of almost 450° a day

[obamanut2012]

29. What does that have to do with what I said?

[Happy Hoosier]

48. That's a separate issue.

The issue here is not stewardship of the moon… whatever that might mean. It’s about whether a small group’s religious views will dictate what our society can do.

Their religion determines what they can do, not what I can do.

I respect their right to believe as they may and act accordingly, until it interferes with my right to ignore their religion.

[Polly Hennessey]

12. Don't jest, that might happen

“Fly me to the moon”…for a Pepsi.

[Ex Lurker]

13. The native peoples of this continent were people, no better or worse than anyone else.

The Comanche committed literal genocide against the Apache and Kiowa. The Cheyenne were known as moral and upright people even by their adversaries.

[Fix The Stupid]

14. Yeah right....get outta here with that nonsense...

Next you'll tell us the the indigenous peoples kept and bartered slaves until 'colonization'...lol...

Don't you know? Only 'white' people have ever kept and bartered slaves...silly rabbit.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

25. Obviously champions the argument

of for-profit space defilement.

[EX500rider]

33. "of for-profit space defilement"

And how do you defile a airless lifeless dust covered rock with temperature swings of almost 450° a day?

[orangecrush]

40. A song

From the Walk of Tears

?si=Y7v-tbe-0P2wJSR_

[BannonsLiver]

15. Lol

[limbicnuminousity]

18. The Navajo aren't asking for burial rights on the moon.

They're simply arguing that it shouldn't be parceled out like suburban real estate.

[Happy Hoosier]

49. Because it offends their religious sensibilities...

Not a good reason. I don’t think their religious beliefs should constrain other’ actions. Id they have a secular argument, then make that and leave out the magic.

[limbicnuminousity]

56. It's not religious. It's moral or perhaps ethical stewardship.

They value life before property. Whether you or I agree with them is irrelevant.

[stopdiggin]

65. No. You missed the argument entirely.

The Navajo are arguing that no one should be able to inter (or scatter?) remains on the moon because of its spiritual significance in their religion. (that is their actual statement - go ahead and read it)

No mention there of stewardship at all. And in fact that argument would be even a little more far fetched - given the further issue(s) of legal jurisdiction, ownership, control, etc. etc.

[Oneironaut]

19. It's still woo-woo nonsense. Why care what superstitious people consider "Sacred?'

They can do their own thing. It should stop at trying to force other people to cater to their religion.

I feel the same when Christians or Muslims whine about how something offends their sky fairy and we should all cater to their demands. The fact that the aggrieved party are Native Americans shouldn’t make a difference.

[Maeve]

22. And yet...for many cultures, sacred places are EXACTLY where people have been buried

Not only the churches of Christian Europe(the number of graves in the older churches is amazing), but the Neolithic monuments throughout the world have been the repositories of bodies and/or cremains for millennia. Sacred rivers, sacred hills--all have been seen as the proper place for the dead. Hubby and I have agreed that whoever outlives the other would take some ashes back to Ireland, our "sacred place".

[brush]

26. Come on, people. WTH ever came up with this ridiculous burial idea in the first place?

And who is foolish enough to be persuaded by it? And how much are they foolishly coughing up for it?

Again, come on, people. There are better things to do with time, effort and money...much better.

Is there some perceived status in being buried on the moon?

How foolish.

[LeftInTX]

34. It's a research mission. The remains just happen to be on it.

I guess those families helped to fund it too. (They each paid $12,000)

Anyway, it's doomed. The solar battery died and the thing went off track. Now it's going to be Lost in Space Forever.


https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-67915696

(It's a bit embarrassing considering how many missions the US has successfully launched. Apparently there was an insulation issue which was apparent right after lift off)

[Happy Hoosier]

50. I certainly wouldn't do it.

But Indo anlot of things other would consider “foolish.” Most of us do. I try not to interfere with people doung stuff just cause I think it’s foolish. If I did, there would be no pro sports.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Apparently the Roddenberries are on this. Shooting people's ashes into space

is pretty common and has been going on for a long time.

Most of the rituals surrounding death are wasteful and expensive and "silly" and always have been. Pyramids and mummies anyone?

I'm not sure why people are suddenly getting so fussed about this now.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilydieckman/space-burial-ashes-disposal

[Doc Sportello]

28. I've seen this ever since I have been here

Worse for indigenous people than any other minority. And replies here like the eye rolling, ignorance of their culture and some that are just flat out responses indicating injury of white entitlement demonstrate that. I would say it is surprising but it's not.

And one history lesson for those who don't know or think that people and cultures are the same everywhere. There were tens of millions of indigenous people here when Europeans started colonizing, spreading disease and committing genocide that reduced their number to maybe less than a million. The tribes treated the land and water as sacred and were such good stewards that the first Europeans thought the land was nearly uninhabited. Compare that to the environmental destruction that the colonizers and their descendants have left us.

[BannonsLiver]

32. The only entitlement in this scenario is that of the Navajos.

[orangecrush]

38. Yeah

Really an entitled people.

"Slavery
edit
The campaign to subdue the Navajo by the Army was supplemented by raids by New Mexican and Ute slavers who fell on isolated bands of Navajo, killing the men, taking the women and children captive, and capturing horses and livestock. During the army campaign the Ute scouts attached to the army unit engaged in this activity and left destruction of Navajo infrastructure to the main army unit.[16] Following the surrender of the Navajo, the Utes continued to raid the Navajo as did New Mexican slavers.[17] A large number of slaves were taken and sold throughout the region.[18]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo

[Doc Sportello]

74. Projection

On your part.

[BannonsLiver]

79. What planet or moon will they claim dominion over next?

[orangecrush]

36. This

[limbicnuminousity]

37. That seems right on target.

nt

[Elessar Zappa]

30. I don't take any sacred beliefs seriously.

Native Americans are just people, like all of us. Some are great, some aren’t.

[NutmegYankee]

39. Some of us hold to the view that religion only binds the believer.

Those who don't follow that faith are under no obligation to follow that faith restrictions or prohibitions. If that's culturally insensitive, then so be it. It's a basic tenet of FREEDOM.

[orangecrush]

41. So that gives us the FREEDOM

To shit all over the culture of those we colonize.

South America, Vietnam, African slaves brought here, and those whose land and way of life we destroyed.

Yeah.

[NutmegYankee]

43. We have colonies on the moon?

Seriously, your argument is highly offensive and nonsensical at the same time. I don't care WHO you are, Your Sky Daddy, Sky Mommy, Sky Goddess, Sky Animal, reincarnation process, etc has no sway with me. I don't care if it is an indigenous faith, an Eastern faith, or you think some God handed down divine guidance into a book. I am under NO obligation to follow your religious views. Period!

Your religious views only bind you. If they bind others, it's oppression.

[orangecrush]

44. I stand

With the indigenous peoples of this land and other lands who have endured misery and atrocities at the hands of their oppressers.

EOM.

[NutmegYankee]

46. Which is a way of saying you know you can't argue against my point.

Psychology explains why people do this, but it still has a bit of cringe factor when you see someone do it.

[orangecrush]

64. Agree to disagree

[stopdiggin]

67. which is NOT an argument for the validation of specious claims and entitlement

which is exactly where an argument over burial practices on the moon - because, 'religion' - lands us!

[orangecrush]

69. Declare victory then

[stopdiggin]

82. sorry (yes, really) - - looks like you got mauled pretty badly on this one (OP)

one would think that you just might have touched on a 'sore spot' with some in the community.
(and perhaps that is not always a bad thing?)

In any event, I'll credit you with good intentions (and probably a good heart) - and wish you well going forward!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[orangecrush]

85. And you as well

I am an electronics school graduate, and worked in defense aerospace for two different firms.

I am an amateur radio operator.

I am a believer in and supporter of scientific research for the betterment of humanity.

I just believe that sometimes the voices no one listens to are the ones we most need to hear.

[Crunchy Frog]

73. I don't think anyone here thinks what we did in those places, to those people

are acceptable, which makes this a strawman argument.

There are no people on the moon to colonize or enslave. There isn't even an ecosystem to destroy.

As someone who grew up with the Apollo missions, I always just assumed that we'd eventually build colonies and bases on there.

At any rate, many countries have left tons of debris there, including golf balls and human feces. But yeah, let's get all upset about it now.

[orangecrush]

75. You Win

Don Quixote's epitaph

[JI7]

42. Nobody should he forced to have their remains buried on the moon

[SarahD]

51. Don't judge by the moon thing.

The Navajo claim about the moon is a pretty big stretch. I'm on their side, but they might be pushing the envelope too far. I can see where people resent the Navajo claim to make the determination about what's OK and what's not. Just remember, you don't understand the issue the way they do. Thank you.

[TxGuitar]

52. So how, pray tell, do they understand it?

[SarahD]

57. Answered already.

Differently than you and me. Tribal people I worked with explained certain things to me, and I attended the First Fish ceremony, so I got a general idea, but I don't think I "got" it.

[Happy Hoosier]

53. What does that mean?

I’m happy for them to decide what the moon means to them. Thay doesn’t mean they can control it.

[SarahD]

58. Control?

I think they might say the moon and other things control us, and we need to honor that.

[stopdiggin]

68. No. THEY need to honor that. And I should be free to

consider it in my own light - even if that 'belief' is essentially, just one more chunk of rock in the sky. Mere physics - and not one iota more.

I should be able utterly reject the idea that the moon has any effect on my life (or yours) at all. And for good measure I'll go ahead and point out that the Christianity for the most part had a very chary view of any such notions as well.
(Not that that carries and extra weight or means anything in particular either .. )

[orangecrush]

77. Bingo

[Ponietz]

80. A nod to the moon's ubiquitous gravitational/physiological effects

Predicting the next entitled jerk will send a drone to make graffiti ala the Nazca lines. Too little room for not-knowing in a skeptic’s life.

[ripcord]

88. So do you think that way about some Christians and abortion?

The problem is that we don't understand the issue the way they do?

[Silent3]

54. My "cultural sensitivity" always ends when it means one group imposing rules...

...based on their beliefs upon other people who have no obligation to share those beliefs.

I have more sensitivity to the Navajo than I might some other groups because of the history of repression they've had to endure. But that doesn't mean there are no limits, and one group trying to tell everyone else what the can and cannot do with the moon is too much.

[SarahD]

59. What is at stake?

Libertarians would say any issue involving one group imposing its values on another group, but humanists like me insist on evaluating things according to what the harm or benefit might be to actual humans. In this case, I'm thinking about spiritual or psychic harm to those denied lunar burial vs those who feel desecrated. I can't see any major harm to either group, but I'm siding with the Navajo because I think any claim of harm from the "ashes people" is frivolous.

[Silent3]

70. That approach turn such conflicts into a contest of who can be the most offended n/t

[DemocraticPatriot]

60. It is my personal opinion that much territory in the United Sates

should be given BACK to the Native Americans---
particularly any which was promised to them 'forever' via treaties,
(which the United Nations should enforce against us!)

GOODBYE, OKLAHOMA! I suppose, and large portions of North and South Dakota....


As for the white people who live there--- too bad, I suppose--
but the government could reimburse them for their losses,
if they were righteous for a change, and that would be more than fare to the whites

[DemocraticPatriot]

61. (Not that anyone necessarily wants Oklahoma, including the Oklahomans...)

but we did promise them the 'Indian nations" (Oklahoma),
until there was nothing else left to take from them, so then we took that also..........

[SarahD]

66. One problem

Many of the places in Oklahoma a d the great plains are not ancestral homelands. The Cherokee, for example, were forced to move from the southeast to places like Oklahoma to make way for Daniel Boone and his moonshine brewing relatives. So maybe we should give them back Tennessee or Georgia.

[limbicnuminousity]

62. The Louisiana Territory

Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California. That's a LOT. Could be good.

[tritsofme]

72. Do you live in the United States?

Will you be giving your home and any possessions back to the most recent Native American tribe to live in your area?

[orangecrush]

78. Just amazing.

Right here on D.U.

I'm floored.

[tritsofme]

92. I know, isn't the idea ridiculous? But if the poster is willing to uproot millions of people, why shouldn't he go first?

And be a shining example?

[orangecrush]

94. Gee this sounds exactly like arguments against reparations for slavery

I assume your feelings on this go all the way across the spectrum.

[tritsofme]

95. I don't see the connection. The person I responded proposed uprooting millions of people.

Do you think that’s a good idea?

I think it is quite silly and absurd, but if that’s the way he feels, why not go first?

[DemocraticPatriot]

97. My post noted 'fair compensation' from the government,

or something to that effect, for the property....

nothing about other 'possessions', so you are moving the goal-posts here....

I didn't offer to give up the clothes on my back, even though the natives could leave with only what they could carry.
I was not responsible for that, but I mourn for them anyway.


But YES, if I were compensated for my property as I previously stated,
I would be quite willing to vacate my property to satisfy claims by the previous occupants,
if they were victims of 'treaties' which we did not honor, which was my other condition...


I was mostly thinking about the tribes in the west, the Lakota (Sioux) in particular,
to whom we made treaty promises which were quite quickly broken....

but if we screwed them in Michigan and there are claimants,
YEAH, I am willing to vacate my property to them, pursuant to the conditions I previously made....

'Compensation' for my property, which they did not fairly receive, of course,
but which I cannot live without....

Does that clear it up for you?

Probably there are many who are more married to their property,
who would not make the same offer, 'fair compensation' or not....

I presume that is your attitude...

[ripcord]

89. So we give New York City back to the Lenape people?

[sagetea]

81. As you have seen,

Some people here have no interest, nor an inkling of how, what, and why, about the Native people. I even think that they have never met, spoken, or are curious about who they and how they live.

But, I DO know that the Dine` (Navajo) have reasons for why they are against burials on the moon. To some people, they don't even try to understand the Native Culture, they just sit in their box and judge without understanding them, without ever leaving their box.

Ho`
sage

[sagetea]

87. uhmmm...

Are you comparing MAGA with the Dine` people?

I'm not MAGA, but I am an indigenous woman from the Americas.

sage

[orangecrush]

93. I just shake my head

And feel very sad when I see these reactions.

I know very little about Native American culture and traditions, and that is a very wide field of knowledge.

I am in Northwest Pa., not too far from the Seneca reservation.

I did work in D&A rehabilitation for a few years, and saw first hand the destruction of alcohol on Native men, who became my friends in sobriety.

One of my favorite memories was a trip we made together to a sacred site in Western New York. There is no mistake. The quiet wasn't something you heard, it was something you breathed like the air. And you could feel the presence of the ancestors.

Recovery from addiction depends on having a spiritual experience, and this was indeed a powerful one.

I deeply respect, and dare not mock.

[Blues Heron]

83. I think we should vote on sending human ashes to the moon, since we all should have a say. I vote no.

[Tommy Carcetti]

90. No disrespect at all to Native American culture. But this all is a bit overboard.

Yes, the moon is a sacred and significant place to them. I understand that.

But over 50 years ago, we had people walk around on the moon. Drive on the moon. Play golf on the moon. Even take a crap on the moon. (Because everyone poops.)

Are there not restrooms in Jerusalem? Mecca? The Vatican? Those are considered to be holy and sacred places to people of those faiths. And yet by some logic, you might argue people "defile" those places all the time in some form or another.

Nothing will stop be moon from being the moon and being gazed at or admired or even held in high spiritual honor.

Unless we blow it up, that is.

[orangecrush]

91. Or bomb it

I get your point entirely.

I think the Navajo objection is, at least in part, to the commercialization of the moon. Selling it off in pieces,in a manner of speaking.