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niyad

(114,302 posts)
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 01:31 PM Jan 2024

PNES**Apparently more common in women, therefore we won't bother studying it.

Last edited Tue Jan 9, 2024, 06:02 PM - Edit history (1)

GRRRRRRRRRRR

*PNES- Psychogenic NonEpileptic Seizures.

I just learned about this condition last night. In short, seizures that are not caused by epilepsy, or any other physical medical condition, but, apparently, an emotional cause as one result of trauma of any kind.

A friend was telling me about a friend of his who suffers from these kinds of seizures. Neither of us were familiar with them, so I looked it up. As I was reading about the confusion, the lack of understanding, the lack of testing, the lack of interest, in the medical community, I thought, "I bet this affects mostly women." (See Chronic Fatigue Syndrome CFS/ME). About two- thirds of the way down one of the articles, there it was. "This condition seems to be more common in women." I wanted to scream, but that upsets my kitty.

And, of course, there is the lovely fact that those misdiagnosed with epilepsy rather than PNES get prescribed expensive anti-seizure drugs, rather than therapy. How convenient.

Are any of our therapists here in DU familiar with, treating anyone with, PNES? Any advice or insight into how best we can help this man? Thanks in advance.

Between a medical system that doesn't seem to give a damn about women (see catholic hospitals, heart attacks, etc.), and politicians, judges, xian fundies and other haters who seem determined to see that we die in large numbers, it is a wonder that women are still here.

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PNES**Apparently more common in women, therefore we won't bother studying it. (Original Post) niyad Jan 2024 OP
Under the umbrella of "conversion disorder" but not PNES ismnotwasm Jan 2024 #1
Thank you so much for this. I immediately went to do a quick bit of reading niyad Jan 2024 #4
Conversion disorder is pretty rare. TwilightZone Jan 2024 #2
Thank you for those most informative links. I can see that I have a lot of niyad Jan 2024 #5
We studied this in pharmacology Sympthsical Jan 2024 #3
Understood. But a real bummer if you are the zebra. niyad Jan 2024 #6
Oh, absolutely Sympthsical Jan 2024 #7
Back in the '60s we "uninformed" women quickly realized do not go to a Catholic doctor Catholic hospital. If you're SheilaAnn Jan 2024 #8
As a woman. Common recovering_democrat Jan 2024 #9
It must be really, really rare Warpy Jan 2024 #10
a couple years ago I was plagued with symptoms that were consistent with MS The Wandering Harper Jan 2024 #11
I hesitate to comment (being a guy). limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #12
It is fairly complicated elias7 Jan 2024 #13
Extremely interesting. limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #14

ismnotwasm

(42,042 posts)
1. Under the umbrella of "conversion disorder" but not PNES
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 01:41 PM
Jan 2024

Last edited Tue Jan 9, 2024, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

I have seen this. Conversion disorder can also cause psychosomatic paralysis. Our rehab floor has a protocol for these patients, yes, mostly women

niyad

(114,302 posts)
4. Thank you so much for this. I immediately went to do a quick bit of reading
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:31 PM
Jan 2024

on it, and will do more later, as well as sending it to my friend. How very much we still have to learn about the brain and mind.

TwilightZone

(25,556 posts)
2. Conversion disorder is pretty rare.
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:04 PM
Jan 2024

Around 10 people in 100,000 are diagnosed each year. The ratio of women-to-men is about 2:1.

My sister had some non-epileptic seizures when she was a teenager in the 1980s. I don't recall if she was diagnosed with conversion disorder specifically, but her condition was understood to not be epilepsy-related. It was thought to have roots in a serious car accident that she'd been involved in.

Here's some info on PNES and CD, including information on treatment options, from Cleveland Clinic, one of the best hospitals in the US:

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24517-psychogenic-nonepileptic-seizure-pnes

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17975-conversion-disorder

Sympthsical

(9,220 posts)
3. We studied this in pharmacology
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:28 PM
Jan 2024

Because you kind of don't want to be giving potent anti-seizure meds to people who do not require them.

The problem is, PNES is pretty rare. A lot of physicians will figure epilepsy, and only when meds don't work will they go fishing around for PNES. The best way to figure it is to do EEG monitoring. An EEG taken during a PNES will pretty much peg the characterization right away. There won't be the signature electrical activity that occurs during epileptic seizures.

But it won't be the first thing physicians look for with seizures. Diagnosis of PNES generally comes after pharmacological treatment fails. They'll start looking more deeply for causes and order an EEG study. But most cases don't typically warrant that. That's kind of why it gets missed.

It's that adage: Doctors usually aren't assuming zebras.

Sympthsical

(9,220 posts)
7. Oh, absolutely
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:39 PM
Jan 2024

And you have to feel for the patient, because doctors who aren't taking it into consideration as a potential diagnosis can end up with a patient starting to feel like they're crazy and not being heard.

And let's be honest, just because it's not usually a zebra doesn't mean it never is. And some doctors can be kind of stubbornly anti-zebra. I think we all have or have friends or family who have some experience with that.

SheilaAnn

(9,732 posts)
8. Back in the '60s we "uninformed" women quickly realized do not go to a Catholic doctor Catholic hospital. If you're
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:44 PM
Jan 2024

having a difficult pregnancy neither of those will help you. One of my doctors was Catholic and I asked if I would be spared if it became obvious it was either me or the baby. He dodged the question so I started to go to his partner, a lovely Jewish doctor who made me feel comfortable. My second child was a preemie and I did want him baptised in the hospital and my Jewish doctor found a Priest to do it for me.

9. As a woman. Common
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 02:50 PM
Jan 2024

As a woman in my late 70s I have been fortunate with excellent health coverage and usually can afford services. See this often for other women friends not so well covered. Not on purpose in most cases, just simple neglect. We need to continue to push the issues.

Warpy

(111,559 posts)
10. It must be really, really rare
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 03:28 PM
Jan 2024

because I haven't seen it since I worked in the medical/surgical hospital which was part of a sprawling state mental hospital.

Even then, I have to wonder if that's what it was since the only reliable drugs were phenytoin and phenobarbital. Some seizures are refractory to those drugs and might not have been psychogenic.

I worked in neuro as an RN, so I've seen a lot of things like conversion syndrome, Munchhausen's, etc. I just haven't seen that one since the 60s.

But yes, doctors don't listen to women. I also worked in cardiology and I had to black out in front of 50 people in the post office and break a leg on the way down to get a cardiologist's attention. I'd been nearly a cardiac cripple for over 5 years by then.

11. a couple years ago I was plagued with symptoms that were consistent with MS
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 03:52 PM
Jan 2024

but all the medical tests I had shed no light on the situation. I was also losing my mind on account of all the noise pollution that I live in. I didn't connect the two until I got some noise cancelling headphones to try to preserve my sanity. They worked. And within a week, all of my MS-like symptoms vanished. Oh they do peek out once in a while, but I've noticed that when they do coincides with times of intense stress

limbicnuminousity

(1,407 posts)
12. I hesitate to comment (being a guy).
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 04:20 PM
Jan 2024

I do wonder though if weighted blankets and/or medical marijuana might help. They can be useful in cases of severe PTSD, but it's not clear how closely related PTSD and PNES are. Or is anything known?

elias7

(4,049 posts)
13. It is fairly complicated
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 05:12 PM
Jan 2024

I’ve typically seen it starting in teenagers although literature suggest onset in 3rd decade predominates. It is female predominant but I’ve seen it a young boy (12-13) and a guy in his late teens/early 20’s, but otherwise in women.

My interface may have a certain population bias as I work in an ED, but these most usually resemble seizures, and that is how they are initially treated, since PNES is a diagnosis of exclusion, i.e., once you rule out seizures or syncope, and unfortunately, this can take some time. People will come to the ER for the first time with a suspected seizure. Family is obviously nervous. Evaluation does not show anything substantial and patient is discharged home to neurologic follow up. it should be noted that most people are not admitted for a first time seizure. It is difficult to get into see a neurologist, sometimes taking months and getting an MRI and the appropriate EEG studies (sometimes requiring sleep deprived EEG’s), also takes quite a bit of time. Once one has a second seizure, also usually seen in the ER by a different doctor this time, medications will typically be started. As someone else in this thread has noted, failure to respond to anti-seizure medications can give a clue into an needing to consider an alternative diagnosis.

After multiple ED visits, the idea of non-epileptic seizures becomes raised. Unfortunately, I have witnessed many doctors and nurses being somewhat biased about the involuntary nature of these episodes and call these “fake seizures“ or “faking it“. Alternatively, many parents do not want to consider the possibility of this being a primarily psychological problem, they need something to be organically wrong with their child. It is difficult to try to sit down with a parent and explain that these episodes are often associated with deep trauma at a young age and our best addressed by a psychiatrist.

It is a difficult and problematic diagnosis, not nearly as straightforward as seizures, and the difficulty in identifying and managing PNES is not primarily gender related. It does, however, fall into that category of wastebasket diagnoses such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome that primary physicians and ER physicians have very little patience with and can result in patients being treated disrespectfully.

A little more info for you:

●Psychogenic nonepileptic seizures (PNES) are events thought to have mainly psychologic origins. PNES include a variety of clinical manifestations, some of which are suggestive, although not independently diagnostic, in distinguishing PNES from other differential diagnoses. The diagnosis of PNES is generally established by video-electroencephalography (EEG) monitoring. If an event is clinically compatible with PNES, then the diagnosis is best confirmed by the observation of a normal awake EEG before, during, and after
●The diagnosis of PNES, once established, should be presented to patients and their families in a supportive, nonjudgmental fashion.
●In patients with a diagnosis of PNES only (ie, no epilepsy), antiseizure medications should be gradually withdrawn, with appropriate supervision.
●Neurologic follow-up should be maintained after a diagnosis of PNES to monitor the safe withdrawal of antiseizure medications, answer patient questions, reinvestigate if new events appear.
●There is little evidence for any treatment for PNES. Psychological intervention is mainly used, including CBT approaches. However, evidence from a randomized trial found no benefit of CBT.
●Pharmacotherapy is not effective for PNES but should be used as indicated to treat psychiatric comorbidity.
●The prognosis for patients with PNES is guarded. Many patients will continue to have PNES after diagnosis and treatment. Even patients whose PNES cease may have substantial psychiatric morbidity and long-term functional limitations.

A little more on psychotherapy:

Psychotherapy — Although some patients stop having events on being given the diagnosis of PNES, many continue to do so and require treatment. Psychotherapies are the mainstay of treatment, delivered by a psychologist or psychiatrist.

●Cognitive behavioral therapy – Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a widely used brief psychosocial intervention that is composed of a variety of therapeutic approaches. Observational case series and small randomized trials suggested that CBT might be helpful in reducing seizures and improving psychosocial functioning. However, a reasonably large randomized trial of 368 patients found that a PNES-specific CBT approach was not effective in reducing event frequency or severity. Some secondary outcomes, such as quality of life, psychosocial functioning, and others were significantly better in the treatment arm, suggesting that CBT may nonetheless have some non-seizure-specific benefits.
●Mindfulness-based therapy – Mindfulness-based therapy (MBT) may be beneficial for patients who have PNES, but data are sparse. Basic elements of mindfulness meditation include self-regulation of attention and taking a nonjudgmental stance towards one's experience. One observational study enrolled 49 patients with PNES in a 12-session MBT program. At study conclusion, the 12-session program was completed by 26 patients; in this group, a 50 percent or greater reduction in PNES frequency was self-reported by 70 percent, and remission of PNES was reported by 50 percent. The high drop-out rate limits the strength of these findings.
●Traditional psychotherapy – Traditional psychotherapy has been used in patients with PNES with mixed success. Group therapy sessions also employ traditional psychodynamic or psychoeducational techniques, and small observational studies have reported decreased episode frequency and/or improvement in psychosocial comorbidities in some patients with PNES. The high prevalence of family problems in patients with PNES suggests that family-related interventions may be useful, but these have not been systematically studied.
●Psychodynamic interpersonal therapy – Psychodynamic interpersonal therapy is an alternative form of psychotherapy. In a case series of 47 patients with PNES, this intervention was associated with seizure remission in 25 percent and a >50 percent seizure reduction in 40 percent. Response to psychiatric or psychological interventions is variable. Interventions are often individualized according to the underlying psychiatric diagnosis (or psychological formulation). We have used a "toolbox" approach, whereby initial triage identifies issues that are thought to be causative, and a therapy type or types is chosen accordingly. As an example, when social factors predominate in causing or maintaining PNES, then family therapy, interpersonal therapy, or social interventions may be used, whereas where reaction to past trauma is prominent, mindfulness, counseling, and acceptance and commitment therapy might be used. Whatever approach is taken, treatment recommendations are mostly based upon clinical experience and the results of observational studies; there have been few randomized treatment trials for PNES.

The evaluation of talking therapies (ie, psychotherapies) in PNES is challenging. Patients tend not to agree to take part in trials and may comply poorly with trial protocols. Trial design can also be challenging: the choice of control intervention can be difficult, and the opportunity for blinding is limited. The psychiatric conditions associated with or underlying PNES are variable, and the relevance of subgroup issues to treatment choice is not well understood. All these factors limit the quantity and quality of evidence available for evaluation of therapies.

Barriers to effective treatment of PNES patients also include unwillingness to accept a psychological diagnosis or attend therapy, poor compliance, financial and insurance-related limitations, and difficulty finding psychiatric and psychological clinicians who are experienced and comfortable with PNES.

limbicnuminousity

(1,407 posts)
14. Extremely interesting.
Tue Jan 9, 2024, 05:25 PM
Jan 2024

Without going into personal details maybe some of the patients might benefit through therapies based on terror management theory?

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