Bernie Sanders: "Frankly I have a hard time understanding why Congress won't act to put a stop to this suffering"

[red dog 1]

January 18, 2024

Related:
"Blinken Delivered A Big Saudi Proposal To Netanyahu Amid Gaza War//Here's What Happened Next"

[Niagara]

1. Thank you red dog 1!

[red dog 1]

10. Thank you.

[EX500rider]

2. How does Congress do that?

If the US stopped shipping smart bombs kits to the IDF, the war wouldn't suddenly stop, the IDF would switch to the dumb bombs they have in stock with more dead civilians due to inaccuracy, is that somehow a improvement?

[Uncle Joe]

3. That would then be solely on Netanyahu and Israel,

not us.

They have their own choices to make.

[EX500rider]

4. They have already made their choice

fight till all hamas is dead or has surrendered
Not seeing how them killing more civilians in the process is any kind of improvement YMMV

[Uncle Joe]

7. Israel still has a choice and having "smart weapons" didn't make any difference before

‘Not seen since Vietnam’: Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs on Gaza, analysis shows

https://www.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html

Whether Israel kills Gazan civilians 100s at a time with 2000 pound bombs, tens with so called smart weapons or snipes individuals waving white flags, we don't need to be a part of that.

If they won't listen to our friendly advice based on a greater scope of experiences, that's not our fault.

[EX500rider]

8. "having "smart weapons" didn't make any difference before"

having more accurate bombs does make a difference, more dumb bombs equals more collateral damage, more bombs dropped to service one target is not a improvement for the Gazan's

[Uncle Joe]

9. Not if you don't care whether you kill civilians or not.

Do you believe Netanyahu's government cares?

[EX500rider]

12. Well which other military bothers to do this, sounds like they care a lot

The IDF warned Gazan civilians for several weeks before the launch of its major ground operation in October to evacuate themselves from northern Gaza, and placed 70,000 phone calls, sent 13 million text messages, left 14 million voice messages, and dropped 7 million leaflets urging civilians to evacuate temporarily for their safety and informing them about humanitarian pauses and precise evacuation routes.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-itll-defend-itself-from-gaza-genocide-claims-in-the-hague-next-week/

[Uncle Joe]

14. Telling a city/region in some ways more densely populated than London and certainly young with 40+% of them being

children to find a safe zone when there was none, the equivalent of telling fish in a barrel to jump out to safety while you're shooting at them.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016371486

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675

[EX500rider]

15. They knew there was going to be ground combat in the North so they told them to go South

I bet that saved 1,000's of lives

[Uncle Joe]

16. Then they bombed them in the "safe zones" of course they cut off the water, electricity and such

for a region of 2.3 million 40+% being children, how many lives do you believe are and will be saved by that?

[EX500rider]

17. Maybe attacking your neighbor who supplies your water & electricity is a bad idea?

[Uncle Joe]

18. No doubt, what do you believe put such an idea in the estimated 30,000 Hamas fighters heads,

out of 2.3 million people with 40+% being children packed in a area more condensed than London, they had to know they wouldn't stand a chance?

I mean they had to know that as you say Israel could cut off all water and electricity starving their entire population, bombing them back to the Stone Age and letting disease take hold.

Israel had obvious military advantage, they had to know Israel would punish the Gazan People severely and it was a one way suicide mission.

So what was the tipping point that convinced them to try such a thing?

[EX500rider]

19. Jihad knows no reason, it is God or Allah's will

[Uncle Joe]

20. Do you believe this war is teaching them reason? n/t

[EX500rider]

21. I don't think jihadists can be taught reason

But they can be killed

But hopefully any survivors will think twice before pissing off the IDF again

[Uncle Joe]

22. What about the other 2.2+ million Gazans that aren't jihadists, do

you believe the absolute destruction from this war is creating more reason or jihadists with them?

[EX500rider]

23. First I don't see absolute destruction

I see destruction equal to most Urban combat scenarios.

And Israel ignoring a massacre of their civilians certainly wasn't going to deter future jihadists.

[Uncle Joe]

26. So, where do you get primarily get your information as to the what the condition of Gaza is? n/t

[EX500rider]

36. Well video evidence for one

IDF combat footage does not show "absolute destruction", and this footage is taken in several areas

&list=FLKmbj3XF1ryOYtieVrQey4g&index=10

[Uncle Joe]

39. That's cool, but those videos are almost always close up.

The aerial views give a more panoramic view of the destruction, although not all of it.

This video was uploaded a month ago and no doubt more destruction has followed since.

I have read that 70%+ of all structures have been damaged or destroyed and almost 2 million people have been displaced, no homes.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016371486

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675

[EX500rider]

41. Yes but was is the break between destroyed & damaged? Damage can mean a broken window

And if you only show footage of where the IDF has struck at Hamas HQ's & bases it will not be a accurate depiction of gaza in general

[Uncle Joe]

42. I agree, but with the Gaza Strip being about on average as densely populated as London

and Gaza City being even more densely populated, dropping hundreds of 2000lb bombs has done much more damage than break windows.



CNN- In the first month of its war in Gaza, Israel dropped hundreds of massive bombs, many of them capable of killing or wounding people more than 1,000 feet away, analysis by CNN and artificial intelligence company Synthetaic suggests.

Satellite imagery from those early days of the war reveals more than 500 impact craters over 12 meters (40 feet) in diameter, consistent with those left behind by 2,000-pound bombs. Those are four times heavier than the largest bombs the United States dropped on ISIS in Mosul, Iraq, during the war against the extremist group there.

Weapons and warfare experts blame the extensive use of heavy munitions such as the 2,000-pound bomb for the soaring death toll. The population of Gaza is packed together much more tightly than almost anywhere else on earth, so the use of such heavy munitions has a profound effect.

“The use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area as densely populated as Gaza means it will take decades for communities to recover,” said John Chappell, advocacy and legal fellow at CIVIC, a DC-based group focused on minimizing civilian harm in conflict.

(snip)

https://www.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html



It's going to take a massive amount of reconstruction aid just to rebuild Gaza after this is over, their real estate has been destroyed.

[EX500rider]

43. No doubt there, all recent urban combat has been very destructive

Second Battle of Fallujah


Russian destruction of Mariupol


Grozny might be the worse

[Uncle Joe]

44. Without a doubt Fallujah was bad, but no conflict in the 21st century approaches the death rate of Gaza

Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam

Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day which exceeds the daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam said today, as the escalation of hostilities nears its 100th day.

In addition, over 1,200 people were killed in the horrific attacks by Hamas and other armed groups in Israel on 7 October and 330 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since then.

Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East Director, said: “The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.

(snip)

The aid agency is warning that people are being increasingly forced into smaller areas due to constant bombardment, as they are forced to flee from places they have previously been told are safe, but nowhere in Gaza is truly secure. Over one million people - more than half the population – have been forced to seek shelter in Rafah on the Egyptian border. Oxfam staff in Rafah report massive overcrowding, with very little food and water, and essential medicines having run out. This crisis is further compounded by Israel's restrictions on the entry of aid, closing borders, imposing a siege, and denying unfettered access. Currently, only 10 percent of the weekly food aid needed is getting in.

Oxfam is also warning of the massive threat to life, beyond direct casualties, from hunger and disease. The onset of cold and wet weather is making the situation even more critical, with a shortage of blankets, no fuel for heating devices and no hot water. One of Oxfam’s partner organizations, Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees (PARC), described the situation for those living in tents as “worse than anything you could imagine”, with makeshift shelters letting in rain, being blown away in the wind and people resorting to desperate measures like selling precious food or water supplies to get a blanket.

(snip)

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam#:~:text=Israel's%20military%20is%20killing%20Palestinians,hostilities%20nears%20its%20100th%20day.



Also Fallujah's population was at about 300-400 thousand, Gaza is at 2.3 million.

I believe this is going to be much worse.

[EX500rider]

47. Of course Yemen's numbers dwarf those

According to the UN, over 150,000 people have been killed in Yemen, as well as estimates of more than 227,000 dead as a result of an ongoing famine and lack of healthcare facilities due to the war.

150,000 + 227,000
377,000 dead
How many dead civilians in Gaza? 15,000? (assuming you trust hamas to issue true numbers which I don't)

[Uncle Joe]

48. 25,000 and we have trusted UN figures before, even they acknowledge the death toll is likely much higher

because of all the people buried under the rubble that haven't been counted yet.

One other point the Yemeni Civil War has been ongoing for about 8 years, since 2014.

Gaza have been under bombardment for 3 months at this rate, it's going to be even worse.

With no water and electricity, dehydration, starvation and disease are going to greatly multiply the death toll in Gaza in the coming weeks.

[EX500rider]

49. IDF says they have killed 9,000 Hamas members so far

Do you trust Hamas numbers (there are no UN numbers, they just pass along what Hamas claims) but not the IDF?

So that would be (assuming Hamas isn't lying which they most likely are) 16,000 civilians

[Uncle Joe]

50. As of January 18th over 24,448 Palestinian and 1,410 Israeli have been killed per UNRWA

As of 18 January, over 25,000 people (24,448 Palestinian and 1,410 Israeli[8]) have been killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 83 journalists (76 Palestinian, 4 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 136 UNRWA aid workers.[9][10]

On 7 October 2023, 1,139 Israelis and foreign nationals, including 764 civilians, were killed, and 248 persons taken hostage during the initial attack on Israel from the Gaza Strip.[11][12][13] Since then, over 24,000 Palestinians (the majority of whom were women and children) in the Gaza Strip have been killed according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties in its reports.[14][15] A further 320 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank by Israel military and settlers.[16] Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria.[17]

(snip)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=As%20of%20December%2030%2C%202023,mean%20about%202%2C353%20militant%20deaths.



I don't understand why you find 25000 dead to be unrealistic?

Dropping hundreds of 2000 bombs in a three month span on an area as densely populated as the Gaza Strip of 2.3 million people with about 40+% of them being children.

I would expect the figures to much higher.

[EX500rider]

56. according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties

Do they have good reason to inflate the numbers for world sympathy?

I mean the same guys who said they only attacked IDF military personnel on 10/7?
Those guys? Totally trustworthy I am sure..

It's amazing the Hamas bureaucracy issues such specific numbers daily, gosh, they must have thousands of brave souls out in the middle of the war zone combing the site of every explosion as bombs fall and battles rage around them counting the dead and wounded, quite incredible it is.... or perhaps quite unlikely.

[womanofthehills]

59. Gaza keeps records of their dead

Lists of all those killed so relatives can check lists to see their family/friends are dead.

[EX500rider]

63. Well if the terrorists have lists

No way to fake that right, write some names on paper

I understand many of you are very invested in believing the terrorists

Color me a little more skeptical

If it's to their advantage to lie they will

[womanofthehills]

67. Gaza death toll: why counting the dead has become a daily struggle

GAZA/LONDON, Dec 22 (Reuters) - In the morgue of the Nasser Hospital, in southern Gaza, workers wrap the corpses of people killed in Israeli airstrikes in white cloth amid the stench of death. They record whatever basic facts they can about the dead: name, identity card number, age, sex.
Some of the bodies are badly mutilated. Only those that have been identified or claimed by relatives can go for burial and be included in the Gaza Health Ministry's death toll for the war. The rest are stored in the morgue's refrigerator, often for weeks.

The toll reached 20,057 people on Friday, amid renewed international calls for a fresh ceasefire in Gaza. The ministry says thousands more dead remain buried beneath the rubble. About 70% of those killed are women and children, it says.
The ministry's figures have drawn international attention to the high number of civilians being killed in the Israeli military's offensive, which it launched after Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel, the bloodiest in the country's 75-year history.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/fight-keep-counting-dead-gaza-2023-12-21/

[Uncle Joe]

62. Thr figures by Gazan Health Ministry have always been accepted before October 7th and those numbers are perfectly

logical with the actions that have been taken on the ground.

As I said before, with all the people buried alive under the rubble, the figure of 25,000 is most likely a great undercount.

[AloeVera]

68. Not only accepted but verified to be accurate

"Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health" tallied casualties that arrived at hospitals during previous wars. The UN verified following the wars and found them to be accurate. But as you say, it's now likely to be a huge under-count. Those buried under rubble, buried in mass graves or worse are not counted. Note also the impact of hospital closures on accurate reporting. It's dreadful.

[Arazi]

24. Didn't happen in Vietnam

We literally actually carpet bombed their villages and cities, napalmed the hell out of their forests, killed millions of civilians in our quest to kill the VietCong (who used tunnels like Hamas).

If anyone had a reason to take revenge on an enemy it’s the Vietnamese (and Cambodians but that’s another story). They haven’t.

Are you so racist that you believe only Palestinians are bent on revenge? Why believe that about them? Out of all the conflicts in the world, virtually none of them spark “revenge” counter-wars

[Uncle Joe]

25. Where did you get that impression

Are you so racist that you believe only Palestinians are bent on revenge? Why believe that about them? Out of all the conflicts in the world, virtually none of them spark “revenge” counter-wars"

I never stated or implied that only Palestinians are bent on revenge.

It's a fucking human condition.

And as for Vietnam, did all that carpet bombing and napalming the hell out them, break their will to fight?

Were they throwing flowers at the helicopters evacuating Americans and Vietnamese from the U.S. embassy because of the bombing and napalming the hell out of them?

[Arazi]

33. From your own words in post #22

Do you believe the absolute destruction from this war is creating more reason or jihadists with them?

Seems as though you’re implying Israel is “creating more…jihadists…?”

Perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning.

And I’ve explicitly said I believe Israel has taken the wrong approach. Numerous times. They should have been far more strategic and surgical. It’s a foregone conclusion they were going to war with Hamas but I would have advised a different approach

[Uncle Joe]

34. I believe their approach of mass punishment against an occupied people is creating

more jihadists, whether you consider the Gazans occupied on the inside by Hamas guards, on the outside by the IDF or both.

What's taking place in Gaza is mass destruction.

Mass destruction doesn't have to happen instantly, starvation, dehydration and disease will work just a well.

[EX500rider]

37. heck Allied bombing killed over 20,000 French ally civilians and they didn't seem bent on revenge

[Arazi]

51. Yup. We have military history documenting hundreds of wars

And postwar rebuilding.

Including recent ones, where the aggrieved population makes peace after war and everybody gets on with their lives (caveat noted that some percentage do hold grudges forever, they just don’t turn into jihadists).

This point keeps coming up over and over and over on DU and elsewhere though, that the Palestinians will never move on and work to create a civil society out of/after the wreckage of war. Unlike virtually every other postwar society.

Only Palestinians will continue attacking Israel forever they say, because of Israel’s justifiable actions taken after Hamas’ deliberate provocation. I’d love to examine that premise more closely but this is definitely not the place for me to tango on that - I already have 2 hides for letting my temper get away from me

[womanofthehills]

58. Israel has controlled every thing that goes into Gaza for yrs

How much food goes in, building supplies even chocolate & chips. There have been periods when they even stopped chocolate going into Gaza. They would not let baby chicks into Gaza for a time. In the West Bank, they are destroying the olive trees, food gardens, people’s homes and smashing cars. They will not let West Bank Palestinians take buses or walk down certain roads. Even videos of little school girls suddenly being blocked from going down roads to their homes and being told to take other roads - so instead of being blocks from their homes they had to walk miles to get home.

[womanofthehills]

55. Then, Israel told the Palestinians to go South

And they bombed the hell out of the South - killing thousands.

[MyNameIsJonas]

28. Got it. So it's not about actually stopping the suffering like Sanders said.

[Uncle Joe]

29. You don't got it.

[MyNameIsJonas]

30. Don't I? I think you confused yourself.

It happens.

The main post is about Bernie Sanders, who's a senator from the state of Vermont, admonishing his colleagues in congress (congress is made up of two bodies, btw, the House and the Senate) about their refusal to act at stopping the suffering in Palestine.

The poster you replied to asked a legitimate question about how congress does that. You replied that the suffering would be on Netanyahu. Nowhere did you answer the question about how congress should stop the suffering in that initial post.

In fact, your post suggests that you believe the suffering will continue. So, again, it's not about the suffering, right? Because you're not making an argument about how congress can stop the suffering as Sanders suggested they could.

Hopefully spelling it out for you makes you less confused on your point. Have a great day.

[EX500rider]

38. Yeah I was a little shocked about that

Apparently more dead Gazan civilians is OK as long as we can claim innocence, even though with less US smart bomb kits more civilians would die for sure

[MyNameIsJonas]

54. I'd also wager the US has *some* influence as they remain working with Israel than if they were to walk away.

Maybe it's all for naught but I'd rather the US have a place at the table when it comes to holding Israel's feet to the fire than to walk away and lose any level of negotiating power, especially since there are still American hostages.

[Arazi]

57. 🎯

[AloeVera]

31. They HAVE been using dumb bombs in 40-45% of strikes

According to U.S. assessments.

One of the reasons for the high civilian casualties.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

[EX500rider]

35. Yes and if the US cuts off supply that will climb to 100% and civilians casualties will be 3x+

[AloeVera]

52. I doubt Israel would continue bombing Gaza so no need to worry

The approach of the last 100 days would be over.

Tragically it was the cover provided by the U.S. carte blanche that allowed this to happen.

Take away the carte blanche and ask for accountability and adherence to laws and rules including not using US. made weapons to commit war crimes and the bombing would stop.

We all want that, right?

[Arazi]

53. Israel isn't relying on our weapons

They’re actually a net exporter of arms. If we stopped providing today, they’d continue only more slowly.

They aren’t giving up until they’ve achieved their military objectives which is to either destroy Hamas entirely or diminish them to the degree that they’re no longer a security threat to Israel.

Our $$ funds a massive Israeli intelligence operation that we can’t replicate in the region. We’re definitely not stopping funding for our “eyes on the ground” in the ME.

Israel has been treated as a pariah state since it was born. They truly don’t give a shit what the world thinks of them or their actions. So what if “human rights paragon” Syria 😒 calls for yet another UN resolution. Ain’t gonna matter except for naive pro-Pal supporters.

Call for Hamas to surrender. Call for Joe Biden to condition all future aid on Netanyahu’s resignation. There’s a lot more effective ways to actually make a difference than calling for an Israeli ceasefire which is never gonna happen until Hamas is finished and hostages (or their remains) are returned

[AloeVera]

70. Isn't it time for the U S. to speak up as the defender of human rights?

Poor Palestinians, paying the price so the U.S. can keep its "eyes on the ground".

Netanyahu's resignation would make no difference. The Israeli public supports this war and all it entails.

If destroying Hamas is all that matters, precluding a ceasefire, you'd have to accept the coming famine and mass deaths of Palestinians as an unfortunate necessity rather than the crime against humanity that it is. How is it possible to do that?

Following Bibi's declaration there is no space for a two-state solution, and with the upcoming "voluntary emigration" the war has made an inevitability, it's time for the U.S. to speak up as the defender of human rights it claims to be.

[Arazi]

72. It's a war. This is exactly what it looks like

Have you ever paid attention to other wars? Famine, mass civilian casualties… check, check … yup - definitely part of every war. Where’s the horror at Sudan? Yemen? Those are also happening yet zero calls for the US to speak up for those countries who are enduring far worse humanitarian catastrophes right now

There’s been massive atrocities in other conflicts in DUs history but now that it’s Jews… 🤔

This is a war that Hamas provoked and now Israel is going to finish it. Pretty certain the US has decided it stands with Israel's human rights since they’ve been attacked multiple times over many decades. No other nation in that region gives a shit about actual human rights like women’s rights or lgbtq rights. Clearly the other Arab states in the region have never cared about Palestinian lives.

Be that as it may, in answer to your specific question about Biden commenting on the horror facing Palestinian civilians, he has done so. Anything he says or does is never enough though for pro-Pal supporters. Almost like there’s an active op within the pro-Pal movement to make Biden look bad and divide Dems

https://www.voanews.com/amp/us-abstains-allowing-un-security-council-resolution-on-gaza-to-pass/7409750.html

U.S. President Joe Biden spoke Saturday to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about Israel's military campaign in Gaza, the White House said.
Snip
According to a White House statement, the president emphasized to Netanyahu "the critical need to protect the civilian population including those supporting the humanitarian aid operation, and the importance of allowing civilians to move safely away from areas of ongoing fighting."

[AloeVera]

73. 250 civilians killed on average a day, far surpassing

It's a war where the scale of daily civilian casualties is unsurpassed by any recent war, including Yemen and Sudan. It's not a war like any other.

Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day which exceeds the daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam said today, as the escalation of hostilities nears its 100th day.
.....
15 January 2024 CLARIFICATION: Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam

[EX500rider]

74. 250 a day (assuming you trust Hamas to issue good #'s) includes Hamas dead btw

So around 40% of the # is hamas

[AloeVera]

80. Did the IDF explain to you how they arrived at the 40% estimate?

I would be really interested to know.

The "Hamas-run Ministry of Health" was tracking names and ID numbers. Does the IDF have such records, do you think?

[EX500rider]

81. Just because Hamas said they did it that way does not make it true

But got it, you trust the terrorists but not the IDF

[AloeVera]

86. They actually published the names, age, sex and ID numbers.

You can think that they're all made up, that's your prerogative.

[EX500rider]

87. That just makes it even more unlikely IMO

If the US had a raging war in a large city it would be months after it was over to be able to ID dead bodies from dental ID's and DNA and relative's ID'ing bodies etc

But I am sure the terrorists are super efficient with huge morgues & labs with 1,000's of techs working 24 round the clock...or not

[AloeVera]

89. Sarcasm aside...it is true the report was published late October

At the time the count was around 6,000.

Blackouts, hospital closures and many other issues have likely severely impacted the counting and reporting.

But if you are sincerely interested in the challenges and the process, here is a good article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201.amp

[Arazi]

75. I was addressing your specific references to mass famine

And civilian casualties.

But please keep moving the goalposts… 😒

Of course no two wars are exactly the same. My point was that wars are horrific and share some commonalities - famine and mass casualties being two specifics

[AloeVera]

79. I thought I had addressed the disparity in civilian casualties with other wars?

Not sure how I moved the goalposts.

The Protocols of Geneva prohibit the use of starvation as a war tactic. There are very few instances in modern times where the prohibition was deliberately ignored and aid circumvented or blocked, such as by the Khmer Rouge. Of course during less "civilized" times it was a favourite tactic of war such as during the Middle Ages or the siege of Leningrad for example. Not great company for Israel to be keeping.

In no way is starvation of the population an acceptable tactic of war in the modern world. It's a barbaric form of collective punishment, it's inhumane and illegal.

I see we've moved the goalposts from "Israel is not starving the population"! to "we don't want to admit Israel's culpability so we'll say oh, it's just war".

If that's the case, please point me to any other recent conflict - other than the Khmer Rouge - where it was determined that starvation was used as a deliberate tactic of war.

[Arazi]

83. Yemen and Sudan

I vehemently disagree that Israel is responsible for starving Palestinians. Hamas is stealing and hoarding humanitarian supplies. I place the blame entirely on them. The responsibility for ensuring Gaza has food stability and supplies rests with Hamas.

Beyond that, I repeat every war has famine and mass casualties. Every war. This one is no different and attempts to paint the horrors of this war as somehow unique because Israel risks the antisemitism charge (again)

[AloeVera]

85. Even if every crumb of food went to civilians, they would still starve.

Because Israel won't let in sufficient aid to prevent it.

The little that is allowed in can't get to where it's needed because there are no humanitarian corridors.

It is disingenous at best to state that the responsibility for food stability rests with a party that is not in control of the crossings, has not created the bizarre "inspections" that have led to trucks waiting for weeks or being turned away, did not impose a near 3-week total siege, nor is committing the indiscriminate bombing that prevents safe passage. It's an insult to people's intelligence.

Pointing to Yemen and Sudan doesn't cut it for me. What happened there was wrong too and there were other factors besides the blocking of aid or a seaport. In the case of Gaza, the sole reason is the siege and then the blocking or obstruction of the flow of aid. And again, Yemen and Sudan are not Western countries that receive military or moral support from our Western governments whereas Israel boasts that it is fighting for civilization. If that is the case, uncivilized war tactics should be protested not excused.

I really don't care if you think these views are anti-Semitic, though that is unfair. They are based in reality and my sense of what's right and wrong. I don't believe in saying nothing because Israel.

[Arazi]

88. Hamas has stockpiles in their tunnels

Released hostages have reported this.

Hamas is stealing the humanitarian aid that comes in. These are just facts.

Frankly I reject your framing that any of this is Israel’s responsibility. This is Hamas’ war. They started it. They chose the battlefield. They’ve run the game from start to finish.

War is a horror. Pro-Pal supporters appear aghast at the suffering but there are far worse atrocities happening elsewhere right now. Im unmoved by the “but Israel, first world nation” bullshit. The singular focus on Israel is antisemitic. Maybe you personally are not, but the movement has morphed into ugly tropes.

War is a fucking horror. What’s happening in Gaza isnt new or unique. The faster it’s over the better. I’m on record saying I wish Israel had gone in surgically, strategically but I don’t have thousands of years of history as a Jew dealing with terrorism, massacres, forced expulsions, and pogroms coloring my every move in my daily life. Every Jew in Israel does. It’s literally one of their foundation stories. “Never again is now” isn’t just a cute slogan for them

[AloeVera]

90. Partial response.

For now what caught my eye is the stockpiling based on hostage reports.

You see this is the kind of illogic that I can't understand how smart people do not question but swallow whole. Please think about the probability of feeding 2.4 million people for MONTHS with what may or may not be in the tunnels, as well as the morality of using this claim to justify the starvation. Please.

Same with the claim Hamas Is stealing aid. Yes, I have seen videos of armed men atop trucks but that is not proof. The aid is getting to some distribution nubs so they are clearly not stealing all aid. Again, to use this unproven claim to deflect and justify seems morally wrong when so many lives hang in the balance. It boils down to propaganda in aid of justifying the unjustifiable.

[Arazi]

91. This is getting tedious

We’re not going to convince each other. I firmly place the blame for the suffering in Gaza on Hamas. Israel will do whatever it thinks it must to be secure (as would any state that’s attacked by terrorists).

Feel free to have the last word tonight

[AloeVera]

92. Have a good night!

I agree, no more. And I'm NOT having the last word, ok?

[ripcord]

6. Probably because they know the decades of history

Of the Arab nations, including Palestinians launching multiple wars against Israel with the announced goal to kill or drive out every Jew from the Middle East. After Israel repeatedly beat down these monsters the rest of the Arabs lost interest and the Palestinians resorted to terrorism still with the announced goal of killing or driving every Jew from the Middle East.

[Mossfern]

11. Correction

Every Jew on this planet.

[AloeVera]

32. "Monsters"?

Arab nations and Palestinians defending the take-over of their land by what they viewed as European invaders?

Why are Ukrainians rightfully seen as heroes for doing essentially the same thing? We don't call them monsters.

Now if the Ukrainians lose Western support at some point and have no means left to defend themselves, would we be shocked if they turn to desperate measures not meeting our moral standards or would we still understand why they'd want to drive or kill every Russian off their land?

Just wondering.

[EllieBC]

40. Rapists and terrorists are monsters.

And?

[AloeVera]

45. Palestinians and Arabs were terrorists and rapists in 1948?

Is that how Israelis viewed them back then too?

[womanofthehills]

60. There are videos online of older Jews

Speaking of how they just enjoyed shooting Palestinians back in the late 40’s.

Talking of how they would load up their guns and just kill Palestinians on the street and they spoke of a young girl getting raped and killed - all the while laughing.

[former9thward]

61. The UN came up with a two-state solution in 1948.

Since you brought it up. The newly formed Israel accepted it and the Arabs attacked. They seeked to drive every Jew into the Sea. I don't know where you are getting the "European invasion" from. The Jews were already there.

[AloeVera]

64. The Partition of Palestine was an injustice, not a "solution" for Palestinians

The partition gifted the majority Palestinian lands (56%) to a minority population (33%) comprised mainly of recent immigrants/settlers from Europe. This despite the fact that Jews owned only 7% of the private land in Palestine while Palestinian Muslims and Christians, having a large majority, were indigenous to all the land. Moreover, it would have caused almost half of the Palestinian population to be converted into a minority and submit to alien rule. The partition essentially denied Palestinians the right to self-determination and national sovereignty within their own lands. I don't think anyone can honestly say the partition was a "solution" for them.

The Jews were already there.

In 1890, there were 15,000 Jews in Palestine (Ottoman Census), though that included parts of Jordan or Lebanon I believe. This is the indigenous Jewish population. The Jewish population of 1948 was comprised mostly (about 60%) of people who had arrived since 1930 from Europe.

As for the Arabs attacking, that's not that surprising given the injustice of the partition and Israel's declaration of Independence on what used to be Palestinian lands, is it?

[EX500rider]

65. And has every attack made things better or worse for them?

Maybe they should try a different approach

[AloeVera]

66. Yes they should.

Israel too, should try a different approach though? Or is it just about might making right?

[leftstreet]

13. DURec

[redqueen]

46. K&R

[Johnny2X2X]

69. Did Bernie forget what country this is?

We live in the USA, not Israel. Our Congress doesn’t control Israel.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. But we *are* the sugar daddy.

[Arazi]

78. We're not actually. That's a propaganda ploy

Israel is a net exporter of weapons. They don’t need US weapons and only import 10% +/- from the US. If we stop giving them arms right this minute it wouldn’t stop Israel at all.

We do give Israel approximately $3.5B per year but as the only democracy in the area, and one of our closest (and only) allies in that region, we probably get our money’s worth in intelligence from Israel. No Senator or Representative (or President) will ever cut that funding. It pays for our eyes and ears in the region

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

76. You tellem Bernie!!

[David__77]

77. Cutting the supply of US weapons is something in the control of the US

[Mountainguy]

82. Thankfully, Joe Biden is President

and not Bernie.

[JohnSJ]

84. Yup. And I find it ironic that in the general election in 2016, major individuals

like David Sirota, Cornell West, Nina Turner, Brihana Joy Gray, etc., not only refused to vote for Hillary in the general election in 2016, but went out of their way to encourage others to do likewise.

It is not surprising that Cornell West is up to the same garbage in 2024 by running as an independent, whose goal will end up being to help trump.