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cally

(21,607 posts)
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 10:17 AM Jan 2024

Gen Z Is Listening to What Netanyahu Is Saying. Is Biden?

From Ezra Klein:

Asked whether they sympathize more with the Israelis or the Palestinians, 63 percent of Americans 65 and older said the Israelis. Among those aged 18 to 29, 27 percent sympathized more with Israelis.

Seventy percent of those 65 and up supported additional aid to Israel. Fifty-five percent of people 18 to 29 opposed it.

Asked whether Israel should end its military campaign, even if Hamas has not been fully eliminated, in order to spare civilians, 67 percent 18 to 29 said they should. Only 30 percent 65 and up agreed.

Asked whether Israel is seriously interested in peace, 54 percent over age 65 said it was. Fifty-nine percent 18 to 29 said it wasn’t.

This is crude, but I think there are, roughly, three generations in terms of American sentiment toward Israel. There are older Americans who knew Israel when it was young. They remember the impossibility and wonder of its creation. They remember the wars its neighbors launched to eradicate it and the seeming miracle of its survival and of all that it then built. This generation still feels Israel’s vulnerability. They still feel its possibility. This is Joe Biden’s generation. It is a great gift for Israel that it still, improbably, controls American politics.

Then there’s what I think of as the straddle generation. This is my generation. We only ever knew Israel as the strongest military power in the region. A nuclear Israel. An Israel that occupied Palestinian territories, sometimes brutally. But we also knew an Israel that seemed to be trying to find its way toward peace and coexistence. We knew the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak. We saw that the collapse of the 2000 Camp David summit was met by the second intifada, by years of suicide bombers rather than years of counteroffers. We also watched Israel build settlements across the West Bank, creating a one-state reality even as it spoke of a two-state solution. Polling shows, predictably, that our views of Israel are more mixed.

Then there’s younger Americans. They know only Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel. He has, after all, been prime minister almost continuously since 2009. They know an Israel that is the strongest country in the region, by far. They know an Israel where messianic ethnonationalists serve in the cabinet. They know an Israel that controls Palestinian life and land and intends to keep it that way. They see this as simpler: a country that oppresses and a people that is oppressed. They are not entirely right — too little agency is offered to Palestinians in this telling — but they are not entirely wrong.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/26/opinion/netanyahu-biden-israel-gaza.html

128 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Gen Z Is Listening to What Netanyahu Is Saying. Is Biden? (Original Post) cally Jan 2024 OP
So now Gen Z is smarter than President Biden? Ferrets are Cool Jan 2024 #1
Post removed Post removed Jan 2024 #5
And Gen Z is not in the loophole on what Biden is trying to do. LiberalFighter Jan 2024 #11
This is not going over well with the young womanofthehills Jan 2024 #115
She is correct, same as Hillary was in 2016 and later about Tulsi Gabbard, etc. betsuni Jan 2024 #120
Is that your view? Because the article makes no such claim. Orrex Jan 2024 #14
THIS. The Vietnam War era is another great example KPN Jan 2024 #16
Smarter? NH Ethylene Jan 2024 #38
I certainly don't think President Biden is lying about his support for Israel because of politics. tritsofme Jan 2024 #41
The age gap is not surprising RAB910 Jan 2024 #2
When you mostly get news off the internet Sugarcoated Jan 2024 #29
DU is on the internet. DU is very, very skewed to the older age cohorts. DU has small, but extremely organised and vocal Celerity Jan 2024 #52
Great post Sewa Jan 2024 #82
Spot on! redqueen Jan 2024 #84
Or, DU has a strong presence of a wise and pragmatic group of tried and true democrats Patton French Jan 2024 #88
Yes! betsuni Jan 2024 #94
it is not an either/or Celerity Jan 2024 #97
Deleted Patton French Jan 2024 #98
Well, ok Patton French Jan 2024 #99
DU groupthink can be very fallible. Crunchy Frog Jan 2024 #128
His statement seems to have your agreement. DontBelieveEastisEas Jan 2024 #113
I think it's the opposite womanofthehills Jan 2024 #79
+1, dictatorships like Purina don't restrict over the air broadcast they restrict the Internet uponit7771 Jan 2024 #89
In a choice between the BBC or TicTok for news I know what I think is more prone to bias EX500rider Jan 2024 #43
SPOILERS: The BBC is on TicTok Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2024 #59
But Gen Z isn't watching BBC on TikTok, they're watching an "influencer" LeftInTX Jan 2024 #64
And you know this how? Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2024 #66
I'm following a murder case of an 18 year old pregnant women who was on her way to deliver her baby. LeftInTX Jan 2024 #68
By looking. I use my eyes. I see GenZ replying and forwarding influencers and shit eating propaganda scumbags. SoFlaBro Jan 2024 #69
So is a bunch of disinformation put out by the Chinese, Russians, etc EX500rider Jan 2024 #65
That disinformation is everywhere. Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2024 #67
I don't think Russia or China are writing articles for the BBC though EX500rider Jan 2024 #70
Dictatorships don't restrict broadcast or radio. They restrict the internet uponit7771 Jan 2024 #91
North Korea would beg to differ EX500rider Jan 2024 #95
NKa size make it an exception. Larger countries can't jam broadcast but can restrict internet access easily uponit7771 Jan 2024 #96
Actually, way more in-depth news on podcasts. womanofthehills Jan 2024 #114
Bill Gates is a BBC supporter!! womanofthehills Jan 2024 #116
You get your news from Rumble? AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #126
I'm part of the straddle generation, and my position on Israel has changed over the past few years. Lonestarblue Jan 2024 #3
+1 TeamProg Jan 2024 #7
Ditto. KPN Jan 2024 #18
Well said. Xavier Breath Jan 2024 #36
I couldn't agree more GrapesOfWrath Jan 2024 #57
EXACTLY !! uponit7771 Jan 2024 #92
Younger Americans get most of their "news" from TikTok Arazi Jan 2024 #4
Huh? TikTok World News Agency? Too funny ! TeamProg Jan 2024 #8
That sounds like the sort of terrible logic you'd find on TikTok. W_HAMILTON Jan 2024 #50
Why didn't he act to prevent it? Especially given the ample intelligence and warnings, Crunchy Frog Jan 2024 #54
Victim blaming, are we? W_HAMILTON Jan 2024 #101
Netanyahu is not the victim here. Crunchy Frog Jan 2024 #127
or not............. Celerity Jan 2024 #76
Netanyahu thought peace was being purchased with Qatari cash going to Hamas Martin Eden Jan 2024 #85
More victim blaming. W_HAMILTON Jan 2024 #102
Israel targeting kids before Oct 7 womanofthehills Jan 2024 #104
No, it is not victim blaming, it is a factual recounting of historical events that empowered the terroristic Hamas. Celerity Jan 2024 #106
Meaning they are being manipulated. Which I agree. LiberalFighter Jan 2024 #13
The Chinese must be controlling other Western media then erodriguez Jan 2024 #23
Every generation is being manipulated via both social KPN Jan 2024 #24
Well put - it always amuses me to see the hate for TikTok redqueen Jan 2024 #30
TikTok? LeftInTX Jan 2024 #42
Exactly. And that's exactly why any reasonable intelligent think-for-themselves person would take KPN Jan 2024 #44
Twitter has great benefits womanofthehills Jan 2024 #121
I think there is a trend limbicnuminousity Jan 2024 #26
+1 betsuni Jan 2024 #58
So news outlets on TicTok are controlled by China there Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2024 #60
You & Nancy Pelosi think the same womanofthehills Jan 2024 #117
A third of all Americans are on Twitter womanofthehills Jan 2024 #118
an interesting viewpoint RainCaster Jan 2024 #6
+1 TeamProg Jan 2024 #10
Same here. Well said! KPN Jan 2024 #25
This boomer thinks more like gen z. Lunabell Jan 2024 #9
Is Gen Z listening to what Hamas is saying? Happy Hoosier Jan 2024 #12
Some are and some agree with them JI7 Jan 2024 #15
+1 betsuni Jan 2024 #62
That was my thought. Since they can hear so well TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #71
Can't even wrap fish with NYT any more. Let's stir up generational division. Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2024 #17
Netanyahu is giving Israel 100 years of danger... judy Jan 2024 #19
Harp on Netanyahu all you like but what wholly distinct response TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #86
Modi when India was struck with a terrorist attack chose peace and won uponit7771 Jan 2024 #93
Modi?? Or Singh?? LeftInTX Jan 2024 #107
Whomever the leadership at the time choose to respond to violence in a progressive way and won. I don't see Bibi being . uponit7771 Jan 2024 #108
I believe it was Singh at the time, not Modi. LeftInTX Jan 2024 #109
Makes sense uponit7771 Jan 2024 #110
Peace when? Won what besides an election? TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #112
All that is 100 times better than what Bibi is doing uponit7771 Jan 2024 #123
The situations are not analogous nor as advertised anyway TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #124
They're similar enough, terrorist attack needed response Bibis was bad Indias good uponit7771 Jan 2024 #125
Netanyahu is giving Israel 100 years of danger... judy Jan 2024 #20
Israel has already been subjected to decades of hate against her elias7 Jan 2024 #105
As a Gen Xer erodriguez Jan 2024 #21
You may not like its leaders, but Israel certainly is a democracy NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #27
It's not a democracy unless everyone can participate erodriguez Jan 2024 #39
All Israeli citizens of any race or religion can vote EX500rider Jan 2024 #45
Some have been so blinded by preconceived bias. Israel is one of the few democracies in the middle east JohnSJ Jan 2024 #77
Israel is not practicing apartheid. Gaza and the West Bank TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #72
The U.S. should follow the UN... yardwork Jan 2024 #35
Post removed Post removed Jan 2024 #40
Specious poke imv. KPN Jan 2024 #46
Gen Z Is Listening to What Hamas and Their Supporters Are Saying Deep State Witch Jan 2024 #22
So you're saying most of them don't or can't think for KPN Jan 2024 #28
Most Adults Don't, Either Deep State Witch Jan 2024 #31
Most? I'll go along with too many, but not sure "most" applies especially to younger generations. KPN Jan 2024 #47
Many buy the propaganda Sugarcoated Jan 2024 #32
True, but not most in my view. Biden would not have been elected in the first place if that KPN Jan 2024 #51
Israel has been going overboard for some time. Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2024 #61
Hamas is on Telegram, but Telegram posts can probably be shared cross platform. LeftInTX Jan 2024 #75
Yup. JohnSJ Jan 2024 #78
Yes. betsuni Jan 2024 #83
Of course Biden is paying attention to Netanyahu. yardwork Jan 2024 #33
I do think Joe sees the situation as being about Netanyahu Lulu KC Jan 2024 #34
Gen Z lol ! stonecutter357 Jan 2024 #37
Gen Z is definitely listening to what Hamas is saying. nt LexVegas Jan 2024 #48
Gen Z is seeing horrific photos every day of dead & dying children womanofthehills Jan 2024 #119
They're not listening to what Netanyahu is saying. W_HAMILTON Jan 2024 #49
Most of them were'nt old enough to vote in 2016. Crunchy Frog Jan 2024 #55
(1) Many showing this same sort of ridiculous logic were old enough to vote and... W_HAMILTON Jan 2024 #100
+1 betsuni Jan 2024 #63
'This is crude' is correct, as details and nuance are ignored. elleng Jan 2024 #53
Most people here will discount Bettie Jan 2024 #56
The Hamas SuperFriends are dead wrong whatever their age is. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #73
But the Netanyahu super fans Bettie Jan 2024 #74
No one need to wish death to all Palestinians TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #80
Have you checked the horrors of what the settlers are doing in the West Bank womanofthehills Jan 2024 #122
A nice demographic analysis Uncle Joe Jan 2024 #81
Trump and he are very close bigtree Jan 2024 #87
Yep, Dictatorships like Xi and Putin don't restrict TV / Radio they restrict the Internet uponit7771 Jan 2024 #90
Cold reality is, neither side is interested in peace relayerbob Jan 2024 #103
I expect this will be discussed and debated throughout 2024. David__77 Jan 2024 #111

Response to Ferrets are Cool (Reply #1)

LiberalFighter

(52,210 posts)
11. And Gen Z is not in the loophole on what Biden is trying to do.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:50 AM
Jan 2024

I seriously doubt Biden is fully behind what Israel is doing. Especially with Netanyahu.

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
115. This is not going over well with the young
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 05:42 AM
Jan 2024

Nancy Pelosi: Protesters calling for a ceasefire in Gaza "is Mr. Putin's message... Make no mistake, this is directly connected to what he would like to see...

"I think some of these protesters are spontaneous and organic and sincere. Some I think are connected to Russia."



?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

Orrex

(63,458 posts)
14. Is that your view? Because the article makes no such claim.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:59 AM
Jan 2024

Instead, it makes the entirely correct statement that generations form their opinions based on their experiences, and none has a monopoly on truth when a complex, nuanced, multifaceted situation is unfolding. Not even the one with which you or I might agree.

It’s ageist to declare GenZ’s opinions invalid simply because they don’t align with Biden’s policy decisions and official statements.

KPN

(15,741 posts)
16. THIS. The Vietnam War era is another great example
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:28 PM
Jan 2024

of different generational perspectives that hit closer and more directly at home. Not that the outcome of the current crisis won’t have direct and consequentially significant effects here in America ultimately; it certainly will politically. Possibly in this years election. Ignore different generational perspective at great risk!

NH Ethylene

(30,848 posts)
38. Smarter?
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:06 PM
Jan 2024

They are forming opinions based on emotions. It's not an intellectual difference. It's a difference in tolerance for the genocidal actions of Israel. It's very likely that Biden shares their abhorrence for the bombing of innocent civilians, but he would be slaughtered politically if he condemned Israel.

I suspect the shift in attitudes toward Israel will continue over time if they don't get new leadership that will work toward a two-state solution.

tritsofme

(17,639 posts)
41. I certainly don't think President Biden is lying about his support for Israel because of politics.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:31 PM
Jan 2024

That is patently ridiculous nonsense.

RAB910

(3,637 posts)
2. The age gap is not surprising
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 10:41 AM
Jan 2024

Older people tend to get their news from MSM or the right-wing propaganda machine. Both of those avenues have a strong pro-Israel bias (in the case of the propaganda machine, more of an anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bias). So naturally, those people are more pro-Israel. Younger people get their news from the internet and social media, which is much harder to control. So, the Palestinian side of the story is known to younger people, as well as Israel's war crimes and genocide (which isn't reported by the MSM or RWPM for the most part).

When you know everything that is going on and the history of the region, it's nearly impossible to justify Israel's wanton killing and talk of yet more illegal land grabs.

Celerity

(44,630 posts)
52. DU is on the internet. DU is very, very skewed to the older age cohorts. DU has small, but extremely organised and vocal
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:37 PM
Jan 2024

groups who so often push agendas and stances designed to attack, discredit, and neutralise the progressive and/or further left environs of our Party (both elected members and our voters), along with (often with a great deal of overlap between the groups) taking positions that I consider to be reactionary, and/or denigrating us younger folk, and/or corporate/status quo-promoting stances (at least in outcome if not also in intent, especially when it comes to healthcare, trade, energy, and tertiary education debt), etc etc.

These are positions and projections that most definitely fall into the propaganda sphere (propaganda is not a term that can only applied to things that a person disagrees with). DU is also an extremely unrepresentative slice of people when it comes to the overall makeup of both our Party (especially in terms of age) and the greater American electorate.

Yet I have seen, over the 5 and half years I have been here, a myriad number of DU posters proudly proclaim that DU is their only (or at least main) source of news and information.

so your statement:

When you mostly get news off the internet
You are especially susceptible to propaganda


faces up as a problematic critique, IMHO.

redqueen

(115,113 posts)
84. Spot on!
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:12 PM
Jan 2024

It's good to not just examine but get out of our little bubbles - thanks for doing such a good job describing this one.

Patton French

(835 posts)
88. Or, DU has a strong presence of a wise and pragmatic group of tried and true democrats
Sat Jan 27, 2024, 09:56 AM
Jan 2024

who don’t fall prey to the political fad of the day.

Crunchy Frog

(26,753 posts)
128. DU groupthink can be very fallible.
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 11:12 PM
Jan 2024

I can remember 10 years ago, when russia first attacked Ukraine, a large percentage of this "wise and pragmatic group" were saying unbelievably awful things including actually taking Putin's side against Obama.

I've seen plenty of bad takes from the DU collective wisdom over the years. And bullying. God help anyone who had the temerity to question whatever the DU conventional wisdom had decided.

It's a good site with a lot of good people, but I've definitely expanded my range of information sources.

113. His statement seems to have your agreement.
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 03:30 AM
Jan 2024

He says,
"When you mostly get news off the internet
You are especially susceptible to propaganda"
"

And you say,
"DU is on the internet"
And characterize it as propaganda.

So, it seems his statement does not face a critique, but rather your agreement.

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
79. I think it's the opposite
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 08:44 PM
Jan 2024

More independent journalists are on social media - while the main stream news has to cater to big pharma, Corporations, Blackrock, Vanguard.


LeftInTX

(26,357 posts)
68. I'm following a murder case of an 18 year old pregnant women who was on her way to deliver her baby.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 06:00 PM
Jan 2024

It was full of crazy young people spouting nonsense on TikTok, none of it was true. None of it.

The case has been solved, but for awhile everyone "knew" what had happened. It was full of psychics and crazy stuff. All BS. People also lied and said they knew the couple. (The BF was also murdered) That was also BS too.

It was all on TikTok. Videos were full of annoying sound effects too. One person put in gunshots in the background as evidence that they witnessed the crime. It was BS.


SoFlaBro

(2,331 posts)
69. By looking. I use my eyes. I see GenZ replying and forwarding influencers and shit eating propaganda scumbags.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 06:01 PM
Jan 2024

uponit7771

(90,444 posts)
96. NKa size make it an exception. Larger countries can't jam broadcast but can restrict internet access easily
Sat Jan 27, 2024, 11:43 AM
Jan 2024

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
114. Actually, way more in-depth news on podcasts.
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 05:27 AM
Jan 2024

And everyone has a podcast now. Plus, on Twitter you can follow all our politicians, world independent journalists and world leaders. You can follow Palestinian journalists & photographers and Israels newspapers. You can find the truth that you often can’t find on our cable stations.

Look at this article from the Times of Israel - from the web

https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
116. Bill Gates is a BBC supporter!!
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 05:55 AM
Jan 2024

Many independent journalists are now on podcasts on Spotify, Rumble, Apple Podcasts, etc & have NO corporate sponsors- funded by their listeners and many have more listeners than cable news.

Lonestarblue

(10,584 posts)
3. I'm part of the straddle generation, and my position on Israel has changed over the past few years.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 10:59 AM
Jan 2024

As I read more about the deprivations forced on Palestinians in Gaza and the continued encroachment by right-wing settlers in the West Bank, and more recently returning a corrupt Netanyahu to power, I began to lose respect for Israel. Their destruction and disproportionate war against innocent civilians in Gaza has caused me to lose even more respect. I will begin to respect Israelis again when they rid themselves of Netanyahu and his greedy, rapacious right-wing government.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
4. Younger Americans get most of their "news" from TikTok
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:11 AM
Jan 2024

A Chinese propaganda outlet.

I presume most folks here know China and Russia are working together to bring down the US.

While I agree in part about age differences and everyone’s experience with Israel’s history, it’s undeniable that propaganda is insidiously undermining actual facts in regards to the I/P conflict.

Any analysis that disregards the impact of Kremlin and Chinese propaganda is deeply flawed. It started 10/7 almost to the minute as Hamas was attacking, and the evidence that it’s a coordinated effort is unmistakable

 

TeamProg

(6,630 posts)
8. Huh? TikTok World News Agency? Too funny !
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:46 AM
Jan 2024

So Netanyahu is in cahoots with China and Russia to bring down the USA. Got it.

W_HAMILTON

(7,930 posts)
50. That sounds like the sort of terrible logic you'd find on TikTok.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:12 PM
Jan 2024

No, Netanyahu is not "in cahoots with China and Russia to bring down the USA."

Netanyahu is trying to root out those responsible for one of the worst attacks on his nation to ensure that it never happens again, and the usual propaganda suspects (Russia, China, etc.) along with their ignorant useful idiots on social media are trying to paint that as """genocide""" and other idiocy.

I don't agree with Netanyahu on much of anything, but to fault him for going to war after what Hamas did on October 7th is fucking ridiculous. If another nation launched unprovoked attacks that killed (the equivalent) of almost 50,000 of our citizens, what do you think we -- or any other nation -- would do?

Crunchy Frog

(26,753 posts)
54. Why didn't he act to prevent it? Especially given the ample intelligence and warnings,
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 04:23 PM
Jan 2024

which he evidently paid no attention to.

W_HAMILTON

(7,930 posts)
101. Victim blaming, are we?
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 01:11 AM
Jan 2024

Or are you saying that he should have taken preemptive measures to take out Hamas before they launched their attack? Which I'm guessing you're not doing...

Crunchy Frog

(26,753 posts)
127. Netanyahu is not the victim here.
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 10:43 PM
Jan 2024

And I'm not saying what you're claiming I am.

It could have been stopped with basic security measures, like keeping forces stationed along the border instead of in the West Bank to protect settlers while they were harassing Palestinians and driving them from their homes.

The terrorists plans were well known in advance, so it should have been pretty straightforward to counter them. It's my understanding that plenty of Israelis blame him too.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/09/1211724903/amid-plummeting-approval-ratings-he-s-blamed-those-around-him#:~:text=Live%20Sessions-,More%20Israelis%20blame%20Netanyahu%20for%20security%20lapses%20that%20led%20to,security%20lapses%20on%20Oct%207.

Celerity

(44,630 posts)
76. or not.............
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 08:02 PM
Jan 2024

you said

Netanyahu is trying to root out those responsible for one of the worst attacks on his nation to ensure that it never happens again

and

I don't agree with Netanyahu on much of anything, but to fault him for going to war after what Hamas did on October 7th is fucking ridiculous


He needs to root out himself:




For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad. Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm. Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000. Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

snip



How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas



‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials. For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them. During his meetings in September with the Qatari officials, according to several people familiar with the secret discussions, the Mossad chief, David Barnea, was asked a question that had not been on the agenda:

Did Israel want the payments to continue? Mr. Netanyahu’s government had recently decided to continue the policy, so Mr. Barnea said yes. The Israeli government still welcomed the money from Doha. Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting. The Qatari payments, while ostensibly a secret, have been widely known and discussed in the Israeli news media for years.

Mr. Netanyahu’s critics disparage them as part of a strategy of “buying quiet,” and the policy is in the middle of a ruthless reassessment following the attacks. Mr. Netanyahu has lashed back at that criticism, calling the suggestion that he tried to empower Hamas “ridiculous.” In interviews with more than two dozen current and former Israeli, American and Qatari officials, and officials from other Middle Eastern governments, The New York Times unearthed new details about the origins of the policy, the controversies that erupted inside the Israeli government and the lengths that Mr. Netanyahu went to in order to shield the Qataris from criticism and keep the money flowing.

The payments were part of a string of decisions by Israeli political leaders, military officers and intelligence officials — all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack. The Times has previously reported on intelligence failures and other faulty assumptions that preceded the attacks. Even as the Israeli military obtained battle plans for a Hamas invasion and analysts observed significant terrorism exercises just over the border in Gaza, the payments continued. For years, Israeli intelligence officers even escorted a Qatari official into Gaza, where he doled out money from suitcases filled with millions of dollars.

snip


Martin Eden

(12,962 posts)
85. Netanyahu thought peace was being purchased with Qatari cash going to Hamas
Sat Jan 27, 2024, 08:04 AM
Jan 2024

Last edited Sat Jan 27, 2024, 08:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Obviously, the Israeli prime minister and his intelligence services were tragically mistaken.

Was it really that difficult to assess the intent of Hamas, given their sworn goal to eradicate the Jewish state? While the cash and the work permits marginally improved conditions in the Gaza strip, it hardly satisfied the statehood aspirations of the Palestinian people or resolved the overall conflict evidenced by the ongoing violent flare-ups in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

The conflict is one of seemingly irreconcilable differences between two peoples who both want the same relatively small land of what was once Palestine on older maps, but is now Israel.

How can this be resolved, especially given the historical religious significance of Jerusalem as the center of a Holy Land for Jews, Muslims, and Christians?

Palestinians are unwilling to accept disapora, departing their homeland with their people scattered as residents into other Arab countries.

The Jewish people who survived the Holocaust had historical roots in the Holy Land, and understandably believed their future depended on having their own nation state where they would not be a minority subject to shifting tides of prejudice against them.

As an American born in 1957 who has followed politics since the Vietnam War, the only solution I can think of to resolve this conflict is for the two peoples to learn to live together peacefully in a single nation.

I have never been religious, but do have some understanding of the compelling significance Jerusalem and the Holy Land has for the people of all three major Abrahamic religions. If they truly embrace the core tenets of their faiths which all worship the monotheistic God of Abraham, should not Jerusalem be an international city of peace and brotherhood?

Yes, I know the two-state solution has long been embraced by the United States and much of the international community, but I really don't see ANY Israeli government forcibly removing West Bank settlers from their homes (some of which have been lived in for generations) -- especially as a series of events triggered by the Oct 7 atrocity committed by Hamas.

Perhaps, almost certainly, the single state of peace and brotherhood is an even more unlikely scenario.

And so we go on. The long history of horrible violence between the faithful is an inescapable feature of human civilization.

W_HAMILTON

(7,930 posts)
102. More victim blaming.
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 01:15 AM
Jan 2024

Hamas is responsible for what Hamas did -- full stop.

PS - When people say that those criticizing Israel aren't pro-Gaza, they are pro-Hamas, this is *exactly* why they say that. Why can you not simply attack Hamas with the same fervor that you do Netanyahu/Israel? Fact of the matter is, if Hamas didn't launch its attacks on October 7th, there would be no war right now. Can you even acknowledge that simple fact?

Celerity

(44,630 posts)
106. No, it is not victim blaming, it is a factual recounting of historical events that empowered the terroristic Hamas.
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 11:11 AM
Jan 2024

As for the rest, I have repeatedly condemned Hamas and their actions since this all kicked off.

LiberalFighter

(52,210 posts)
13. Meaning they are being manipulated. Which I agree.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:52 AM
Jan 2024

I disagree with another saying that those in the first group are getting their news from the right-wing MSM. Really? Those saying that are biased.

erodriguez

(676 posts)
23. The Chinese must be controlling other Western media then
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:41 PM
Jan 2024

because they are reporting on the same atrocities.

Please tell us what media source is good?

KPN

(15,741 posts)
24. Every generation is being manipulated via both social
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:41 PM
Jan 2024

and most of the news media. Are you affected by it? I’m guessing not - for the most part. Why? Because most here at DU think for themselves and sift through the chaff to know the truth. Most educated people do as well — regardless of their political identities.

The TikTok argument is BS.

redqueen

(115,113 posts)
30. Well put - it always amuses me to see the hate for TikTok
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:55 PM
Jan 2024

On balance its benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

The same can no longer be said about twitter.

LeftInTX

(26,357 posts)
42. TikTok?
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:46 PM
Jan 2024

I'm following a true crime case and the way the platform is set up, it encourages tons of fake stuff and embellishments.

Any platform can propagate fake, but TikTok focuses on heavily edited repeating short videos. It seems designed for entertainment more than anything.

KPN

(15,741 posts)
44. Exactly. And that's exactly why any reasonable intelligent think-for-themselves person would take
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:53 PM
Jan 2024

it for what it is as opposed to 100% fact. Just like you and I do with the social and news media daily.

It's not TikTok that's a problem. It's the GQPs attack on education!

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
121. Twitter has great benefits
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 06:21 AM
Jan 2024

You can follow whoever you want - President Obama or Brazil’s Lula, The Times of Israel or Palestinian journalists, all your favorite reporters and authors, biologists, researchers etc.

Why would anyone not want the vast knowledge available on Twitter?

limbicnuminousity

(1,409 posts)
26. I think there is a trend
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:47 PM
Jan 2024

among some to turn to sources like tik-tok, tumblr, reddit and the like in search of first-hand accounts. Some may be gullible and take the first thing they hear and take it as the truth. But some cross-reference looking for consistency in accounts.

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,039 posts)
60. So news outlets on TicTok are controlled by China there
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 05:23 PM
Jan 2024

but not on other platforms?

I will fully agree that the algorithm on TicTok gives you what you want to hear, but something is not automatically wrong and propaganda because it's on TicTok.

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
118. A third of all Americans are on Twitter
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 06:06 AM
Jan 2024

And the majority of Twitter users are young. Young people I know are big into podcasts.

RainCaster

(11,051 posts)
6. an interesting viewpoint
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:23 AM
Jan 2024

I'm part of that older (boomer) generation who has watched Israel spout "never again" about how they were treated by Germany, while remaining silent about ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. So I am more aligned with Gen Z on this issue.

Lunabell

(6,280 posts)
9. This boomer thinks more like gen z.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 11:46 AM
Jan 2024

But, some who embrace hamas are sadly mistaken. I just want both people to have a homeland and live in peace. I think there really needs to be a 2 state solution with assurances by Israel and the Palestinians that both deserve permanent homes.

judy

(1,942 posts)
19. Netanyahu is giving Israel 100 years of danger...
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:35 PM
Jan 2024

What these "older people" are missing, is that if you support Israel, and I mean the people of Israel not the right-wing government, you should be against the killing of at least 25,000 people in Gaza, even if you think Palestinians should all disappear. This massacre, will bring on decades of hate against Israel, and subsequent vows of revenge. How can anyone support this no matter at what age?
That said, the Palestinian people who are just trying to live their lives in peace, who are of many different religions, have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

TheKentuckian

(25,190 posts)
86. Harp on Netanyahu all you like but what wholly distinct response
Sat Jan 27, 2024, 08:46 AM
Jan 2024

would you anticipate from his opposition?

What plausible leader of any nation in like circumstances would not go hammer and tongs against such a threat?

All this screeching is delusional and hypocritical at best and it is very difficult to see how it is only the Jews that have the expectation of stiff upper lipping anything like a 10/7 ever.

Maybe several genocidal wars and decades of terrorist attacks don't spread the love too well either?

Israelis are a far more patient people than we are. No question that Gaza would have been a parking lot long ago in the same spot if it was us, don't even try to front on that shit.

uponit7771

(90,444 posts)
108. Whomever the leadership at the time choose to respond to violence in a progressive way and won. I don't see Bibi being .
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 12:16 PM
Jan 2024

... progressive with anything other than what he thinks will work for him.

TheKentuckian

(25,190 posts)
112. Peace when? Won what besides an election?
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 03:10 AM
Jan 2024

Hitting hard in Kashmir and Balakot mixed with a lot of counter terrorism efforts and probably some luck must be what you mean.

judy

(1,942 posts)
20. Netanyahu is giving Israel 100 years of danger...
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:36 PM
Jan 2024

What these "older people" are missing, is that if you support Israel, and I mean the people of Israel not the right-wing government, you should be against the killing of at least 25,000 people in Gaza. This massacre, will bring on decades of hate against Israel, and subsequent vows of revenge. How can anyone support this no matter at what age?

elias7

(4,087 posts)
105. Israel has already been subjected to decades of hate against her
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 07:47 AM
Jan 2024

And Jews have been subjected to centuries of hate against them. The problem is the massacre against Israel by Gaza on 10/7 garnered massive support among the left starting on day one, before there was any kind of response. Israel tried to generate good will by allowing Qatar to fund Hamas and that blew up in their faces. I don’t support the right wing policies of Israel, but with no agency given to the Palestinian people and to Hamas, they are being painted as the perpetual victim, yet they continue to spout their own words of genocide against the Jews and Israel, continue to hold hostages, continue to lob bombs into Israel, even during the periods of cease-fire How can anyone support this no matter at what age?

erodriguez

(676 posts)
21. As a Gen Xer
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:37 PM
Jan 2024

The Israel I have seen is not a democracy and hasn't been a good ally.

The US gives special support to Israel but it's getting grief in return because of its right wing apartheid government.

The US should follow the UN and start treating as just another country rather than it's big brother.

erodriguez

(676 posts)
39. It's not a democracy unless everyone can participate
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:18 PM
Jan 2024

The US became a democracy in 1965 when the voting rights act was passed. Until then it was very much an apartheid state just as Isreal currently.

EX500rider

(10,955 posts)
45. All Israeli citizens of any race or religion can vote
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 01:56 PM
Jan 2024

The people of Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens

JohnSJ

(92,799 posts)
77. Some have been so blinded by preconceived bias. Israel is one of the few democracies in the middle east
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 08:15 PM
Jan 2024

yardwork

(62,084 posts)
35. The U.S. should follow the UN...
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:59 PM
Jan 2024

You mean go along with Russia, China, Uganda. Iran, etc? I hope not.

Response to yardwork (Reply #35)

Deep State Witch

(10,659 posts)
22. Gen Z Is Listening to What Hamas and Their Supporters Are Saying
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:38 PM
Jan 2024

Both Hamas and Iran have very active social engineering efforts aimed at sympathetic Westerners. I've seen postings that "Yemen hasn't attacked anyone, yet they're being attacked by the US" and other things that are aimed at generating sympathy for terrorists.

Not to say that the Israelis haven't gone overboard on their attacks in Gaza. They have. But a lot of people are falling into traps laid by our adversaries to garner sympathy and influence Western governments against Israel.

KPN

(15,741 posts)
28. So you're saying most of them don't or can't think for
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:52 PM
Jan 2024

themselves — like you and I when we use social media?

Deep State Witch

(10,659 posts)
31. Most Adults Don't, Either
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:56 PM
Jan 2024

Most adults don't know how to analyze information and look at reliable sources, either.

KPN

(15,741 posts)
47. Most? I'll go along with too many, but not sure "most" applies especially to younger generations.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:01 PM
Jan 2024

We are saddled with many ignorants for sure and that is a challenge, but I don';t buy the notion that GenZ's protests against Netanyahu's approach to Gaza is based in ignorance -- of, for that matter, misunderstanding. I'm an older boomer and with GenZ on this one frankly.

KPN

(15,741 posts)
51. True, but not most in my view. Biden would not have been elected in the first place if that
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:18 PM
Jan 2024

were the case. There are a lot of them for sure, and its daunting ... but we outnumber them and can and will prevail in the long run. ... But back to the topic, as an older boomer, I'm with GenZ on this Gaza thing. They are thinking straight in my opinion, and they are simply using what they have to influence the future -- their voices, thew ability to organize, and the use of protest as a means to get their voices heard. Nothing wrong with that.

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,039 posts)
61. Israel has been going overboard for some time.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 05:24 PM
Jan 2024

There are plenty of people older than Gen Z pointing this out.

LeftInTX

(26,357 posts)
75. Hamas is on Telegram, but Telegram posts can probably be shared cross platform.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 07:33 PM
Jan 2024

All someone has to do is record it and send it out.
I don't know if Hamas is on TikTok........

I'm sure there are plenty in US who are also on Telegram. I was following it for awhile just out of curiosity.
The IDF is on Telegram.

Telegram is kinda like instagram, except there are no moderators.

Telegram is used by drug dealers.
I was following a case of a drug dealer who was murdered and he was on telegram advertising his drugs.

yardwork

(62,084 posts)
33. Of course Biden is paying attention to Netanyahu.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:58 PM
Jan 2024

Ezra Klein has been silly for decades and this is another silliness from him. Jeez.

Lulu KC

(2,623 posts)
34. I do think Joe sees the situation as being about Netanyahu
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 12:58 PM
Jan 2024

But I'm not sure our youngest generation believes that he sees it. Israel is not Netanyahu in the way that the U.S. is not Trump--but it's sure hard to tell sometimes in both cases. All kinds of nuance here, and that doesn't play well.

Thanks for sharing article. It does a good job of describing this situation. Joe is carrying a very big load.

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
119. Gen Z is seeing horrific photos every day of dead & dying children
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 06:10 AM
Jan 2024

And these images are unlike anything they have ever seen in their lives. Little girls with blown off legs screaming while drs remove rest of legs with no anesthesia.

W_HAMILTON

(7,930 posts)
49. They're not listening to what Netanyahu is saying.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:04 PM
Jan 2024

They are listening to what other idiots on social media like TikTok are saying about what he says, what Biden says, etc.

It's how they regularly get roped into short-sighted positions that only hurt the causes they claim to promote. See: the lies they believed about Hillary in 2016.

Sadly, many are just useful idiots that are easily duped by those acting in bad faith to manipulate them.

There is youthful idealism and then there is abject ignorance. When it comes to the Israel situation, many are falling into the latter here.

If a terrorist nation attacked us and killed (the equivalent) of almost 50,000 of our citizens, do they not think we would immediately be at war?

W_HAMILTON

(7,930 posts)
100. (1) Many showing this same sort of ridiculous logic were old enough to vote and...
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 01:10 AM
Jan 2024

...(2) You didn't need to vote or need to be eligible to vote or to even be an American to join in the shameful chorus of lies that were being told about Hillary back then. Very much a "no single raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood" situation.

elleng

(132,417 posts)
53. 'This is crude' is correct, as details and nuance are ignored.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 02:43 PM
Jan 2024

Polls do not do justice to complex issues.

Bettie

(16,275 posts)
56. Most people here will discount
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 04:37 PM
Jan 2024

anything that young people believe or have to say as worthless because...reasons.

I work not to dismiss younger people as I was dismissed as a young person. I'm not going to turn into a 'get off my lawn, you whippersnappers!' old lady.

TheKentuckian

(25,190 posts)
73. The Hamas SuperFriends are dead wrong whatever their age is.
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 07:15 PM
Jan 2024

Antisemitic, genocidal supporters of mutilations, rape, hostage taking, and massacring of all ages can piss up a rope.

Bettie

(16,275 posts)
74. But the Netanyahu super fans
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 07:31 PM
Jan 2024

are wonderful, the best people in existence, right?

Fact is, I don't want to see civilians on either side dead, but apparently, one is required to wish death to all Palestinians, including newborn babies so as not to be labeled an antisemite.

TheKentuckian

(25,190 posts)
80. No one need to wish death to all Palestinians
Fri Jan 26, 2024, 10:03 PM
Jan 2024

to recognize that the threat posed by Hamas, Hezbollah, and posse rightfully must be put down.

Personally, I think Netanyahu is corrupt, criminal, incompetent, and a war monger in general but that doesn't translate to thinking he is wrong if he calls water wet.

The capacity for continued terrorist attacks must be broken.

If forced to choose which shitty hands to place myself in though, I'll take Likud over Hamas any day of the week, twice on Sunday, and thrice on Saturday.

womanofthehills

(8,925 posts)
122. Have you checked the horrors of what the settlers are doing in the West Bank
Mon Jan 29, 2024, 06:40 AM
Jan 2024

And have been doing for years. Israel is not innocent. We can go online and see old women dragged out of their lifelong homes while 2 young Jewish men with backpacks move right in, settlers blowing up farmers wells, cutting their olive trees, dragging their young kids away etc and yesterday groups of settlers were throwing rocks at Palestinians cars & beating them up for just driving.

bigtree

(86,360 posts)
87. Trump and he are very close
Sat Jan 27, 2024, 09:49 AM
Jan 2024

...the only question here that's relevant to these concerns expressed about the Israeli leader is whether Trump will get back in.

All of this falderal about Biden misses that important point.

relayerbob

(6,590 posts)
103. Cold reality is, neither side is interested in peace
Sun Jan 28, 2024, 01:51 AM
Jan 2024

Both Netanyahu and his supporters and Hamas have to go before we can hope for peace. Even then, it will be a difficult road. And, as usual, it's the people who suffer.

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