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MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 07:36 AM Jan 2024

The Principle Of Residential Jurisdiction: Abortion Trafficking Bills Are The Opening Salvo

These bill types are the opening salvo. They start with children and then expand to adults.

They start with gender affirming care, "genital mutilation", hormone therapy and expand to contraception, vasectomies, and tubal ligations. They target hormones affecting ones gender and then argue contraception effectively does the same thing. They argue "cutting apart children's genitals" is mutilation, and then expand the argument to adult voluntary sterilization.

They start with criminalizing all abortions within a state, and then argue the "residential principle of jurisdiction" means that states can prosecute out of state physicians who perform abortions on their own citizens - even if its legal in the other state.

The Principle of Residential Jurisdiction: This is a minority fringe of fascist minds arguing States can regulate their citizens' conduct outside their borders. That is, States can extend their laws extraterritorially to their residents wherever they are in the US, regardless of the laws in the state they are in. Normally, we think in terms of territorial jurisdiction, however, the radical fringe argues that Sovereigns are equal and Privileges and Immunities may not interfere with their ability to effect their own laws on their residents.

This is the issue when it comes to abortion and extraterritorial applications of associated criminal and civil law.

When the US was founded, travel was extremely arduous, and going from Pennsylvania to Massachusetts took a LONG time. The privileges and immunities clause and states regulating almost entirely within their borders was generally constrained by the fact if someone wanted to go from PA to Mass and visit a Physician performing abortions there, it was a long, tedious, and tenuous process where the traveler probably spent a good, long few days/weeks outside the territorial boundaries of PA. That was probably sufficient to disentangle any minimum contacts with PA required for personal jurisdiction.

Nowadays, someone can fly from Texas to Boston, get an abortion, and then be home literally the same day. The Founders never, ever envisioned that being a possibility. How long must one be out of a state for minimum contacts to fall away?

When Y'all Qaeda's sitting majority in SCOTUS is faced with the scenario above (TX to Boston and back in the same day) it would look to what travel and personal jurisdiction requirements were way back then. Look at Heath vs Alabama recognizing Alito and Thomas' desire to reshape society in their worldview. The results are terrifying.

What does all this mean? It means some think State A can regulate its citizens' conduct while out of state. Why? Because if you only subscribe to the territorial principle, it becomes a "race to the bottom" where local laws can be evaded by walking 3 feet over a state line.

For example, prostitution is illegal in Alabama, and so is swinging technically. Bob and Marcy decided to go to Nevada and visit a brothel. They have a wonderful time and come home and tell everyone in town about it. Sally and Rob decide to go to NV to have some fun, and they come home. After hearing about Bob and Marcy and Sally and Rob, Sue and Rick talk about the possibility of swinging, and join a few apps to meet other couples. They go to a Miami swingers club and have a weekend of fun.

Now, the whole town is abuzz with all of this stuff illegal under AL law, BUT it all took place outside of AL. A local news station covers all of these events. Some people are shocked and disgusted at this and want something done. Kids in the high school and local college are now having conversations about swinging and polyamory.

The residential jurisdiction and heterogeneity theories argue that states have an interest in being able to stop out of state conduct that evades local laws because of the negative effects within its boundaries of a scenario like the one above. Being able to solicit a prostitute and participate in swinging by simply crossing a state line 3 feet away creates that "race to the bottom" where anyone can hop across the border and be free. Thus, under these theories states should be able to penalize those citizens that travel out of state and do something illegal in their home state.

We are marching towards residential jurisdiction, heterogeneity of laws, and common good originalism.

This is not a good thing.

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Buckeyeblue

(6,353 posts)
1. Would the opposite be true then?
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 07:56 AM
Jan 2024

I live in Michigan where Marijuana is legal. I go to Indiana where it's not legal and get arrested for possession. Could I claim that since it's legal in Michigan and I'm a resident of Michigan, it's legal for me to possess Marijuana in Indiana?

I get what states could potentially try to do, however, I would the the potential impacts to commerce would prevent these types of laws from being able to be enforced.

Lochloosa

(16,737 posts)
2. Apples and Oranges.
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:08 AM
Jan 2024

Just because something is legal in one state would not give you immunity from laws in another. Consider concealed carry laws say in FL where you are not required to have a CC card any longer. That would not give you immunity in NYC, with it's stringent laws.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
4. Would State A's Prohibitions Supplant State B's Permissions Under The Principle Of Residential Jurisdiction?
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:14 AM
Jan 2024

Time will tell.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
3. If It's Good For The Goose It's Good For The Gander...
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:11 AM
Jan 2024

No doubt that variations of the argument you've put forth will be within submitted briefs and oral arguments.

How that plays out?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Buckeyeblue

(6,353 posts)
7. Or what if i refuse to be a resident of any state
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 09:09 AM
Jan 2024

Let's say I have a RV and I'm constantly roaming. There are people like this today. I think they pick a state and get a PO Box and then deal with registration/license renewal as needed, so maybe that's how residency would be defined.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
8. The Point Is The Absurdity Of The Proposition And An Unfortunate Possibillity Of SCOTUS Supporting Such
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 10:45 AM
Jan 2024

Indeed the parameters you outlined further illustrate the absurdity of the proposition.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
13. I Agree With Ya' the parameters you outlined further illustrate the absurdity of the proposition.
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:01 PM
Jan 2024

Silver Gaia

(5,363 posts)
5. So, does this concept then filter down to counties and cities?
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:54 AM
Jan 2024

This seems wholly untenable. If it filtered down to the local level, I could see even MAGAs being against it. What happens when you're a beer drinking MAGA living in a dry county in the South who's used to visiting the county-line bar on Saturday night, but now you can't because of this crap? Hmmm ..

The end result, over time, would have to be migration. The people who disagree with the restrictions would tend to eventually resettle in areas more amenable to them. We would become a concoction of small city-states or countries, no longer a collection of united states. In the meantime, however, it would be chaos trying to maintain all that surveillance. In short, this is nuts.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
9. You're Dead On Point. It's An Obscene Cross-Burning Nat-C Absurdity.
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 10:52 AM
Jan 2024
Fascism 101

- Intimidate
- Incarcerate
- Exterminate

This is that.

Ms. Toad

(38,648 posts)
6. Blatanty unconstitutional.
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 09:02 AM
Jan 2024

The fact that states are trying to regulate commerce outside of their borders did not make it constitutional to do so.

MayReasonRule

(4,099 posts)
10. You're Dead On Point - Unfortunately Reason Dictates That Those Lacking Reason Will Not Employ Reason
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 10:58 AM
Jan 2024

Time will tell...

Alito and Thomas are frothing for a fight.

ScratchCat

(2,742 posts)
11. Yes, all of these laws would be DOA
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 11:56 AM
Jan 2024

And I have no fear that the SCOTUS would uphold them. This issue has been settled before any living person was born.

Aristus

(72,197 posts)
14. That sounds an awful lot like "You're not allowed to be free in Canada or a Northern state
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:07 PM
Jan 2024

because you are a slave in Louisiana" laws.

Same shit, different century.

God, I wish these assholes would die already.

limbicnuminousity

(1,416 posts)
15. Reframing the terms of the subject
Tue Jan 30, 2024, 08:14 PM
Jan 2024

Many moons ago I befriended two young women who had been addicted to cocaine and turned to prostitution for the fix. I witnessed the hold their pimps had on them. Neither was allowed to leave the city even years after leaving the pimps and prostitution behind.

These lawmakers are acting like pimps treating their citizens and children like drug-addicted whores. And they don't want more rational parts of the country giving members of their stable a fix.

It's reprehensible.

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