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Stinky The Clown

(67,869 posts)
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 01:43 AM Feb 2024

I keep hearing that states can't secede. But let's say one does.

Then what?

War? Begging them to come back? Stern letters? What?

Secession is about the dumbest thing a state can do. But assuming they decide to be stupid, what can be done about it?

62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I keep hearing that states can't secede. But let's say one does. (Original Post) Stinky The Clown Feb 2024 OP
lol. I said T-Rump would never win. BootinUp Feb 2024 #1
Really? Arthur_Frain Feb 2024 #2
Oh, did I miss the class? Stinky The Clown Feb 2024 #10
One didn't have to be present from 1861 to 1865 to learn it. Arthur_Frain Feb 2024 #11
It would be nothing like the Civil War. There would be less than zero need for a military response. Scrivener7 Feb 2024 #38
Ultimately leftieNanner Feb 2024 #3
Abbott never talks about it.... LeftInTX Feb 2024 #8
WE should be showing what an empty threat it is. Whenever the topic is raised by a republiQan, our Scrivener7 Feb 2024 #39
Never happen lovebugg Feb 2024 #4
Exactly Emile Feb 2024 #23
What do parents do when the 4 year old says they are running away? Silent Type Feb 2024 #5
I am totally down for packing Texas's bags d_r Feb 2024 #53
"Let the erring sisters go in peace--- and cut them off DemocraticPatriot Feb 2024 #6
Just to play along with the question... William Gustafson Feb 2024 #7
Yes, one of the demands of Texas succession would be that they build and pay for the wall... Omnipresent Feb 2024 #34
Would the Dallas Cowboys be eligible for the Super Bowl? lastlib Feb 2024 #36
Would TX electoral votes be seceded from the election? Captain Zero Feb 2024 #40
No point in wasting time on a hypothetical that simply isn't possible. TwilightZone Feb 2024 #9
It's an astroturf campaign by the usual Russian suspects Rstrstx Feb 2024 #12
same ones doing the campaigns to break up California and make the PNW secede MistakenLamb Feb 2024 #30
heres what would happen moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #13
And the GOP would lose Congress. C_U_L8R Feb 2024 #15
All of these things...and probably a civil war within Texas Buckeyeblue Feb 2024 #19
I wouldn't go to Arkansas Bucky Feb 2024 #26
im considering colorado moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #45
New Mexico seems to have affordable housing and a nice climate Buckeyeblue Feb 2024 #58
thats also a possibility moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #59
Also, a lot of the idiots pushin secession are whites Vogon_Glory Feb 2024 #31
No SS payments to TX folks. No longer citizens, passports invalidated and no chance to travel anywhere. Stock.... machoneman Feb 2024 #32
Outside of SS payments Zeitghost Feb 2024 #47
IIRC Zeitghost Feb 2024 #46
Would not be eligible for Social Security or Medicare. LiberalFighter Feb 2024 #60
they already have toll roads here moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #61
Well, if it's Texas... Grumpy Old Guy Feb 2024 #14
Send in the FBI accompanied by troops to... LudwigPastorius Feb 2024 #16
They'd lose all federal funding and benefits. Elessar Zappa Feb 2024 #17
I don't see why Social Security would stop for current beneficiaries dsc Feb 2024 #21
I'm pretty sure if you renounce your citizenship you lose SSI Bucky Feb 2024 #25
There are some pitfalls, but you can continue to collect benefits if you properly earned them unblock Feb 2024 #28
Texas gets $1.60 in return for every $1.00 it sends to Washington. That alone makes this a RW fantasy. n/t CincyDem Feb 2024 #41
it's just performance for the cult Skittles Feb 2024 #18
Their economy folds day one, no functioning airports, shipping ends from nearly every US company hlthe2b Feb 2024 #20
Exactly +1 Emile Feb 2024 #22
Not to mention JPK Feb 2024 #52
The U.S. could blockade their coastlines Wicked Blue Feb 2024 #35
Latin American drug cartels have boats, even some big ones, possibly some submarines Attilatheblond Feb 2024 #43
Pick up an American history book and read chapter 17 Bucky Feb 2024 #24
It would become mass shakeout of property rights and debts, just like a divorce bucolic_frolic Feb 2024 #27
The loss of two Republican Senators and 24 Representatives....I can live with that! 303squadron Feb 2024 #29
Oh goodie! We lose all those onerous, self-indulgent TX Senators and Reps! Hooray! machoneman Feb 2024 #33
Texas? The smart thing would be to say, "Buh bye" and wait for THEM to beg to come back. Scrivener7 Feb 2024 #37
This feels like settled law Johonny Feb 2024 #42
Dissolution is the least worst path forward. Voltaire2 Feb 2024 #44
It's only illegal until they do it, then it becomes legal Polybius Feb 2024 #48
Let 'em go, and fuck 'em. Aristus Feb 2024 #49
For what purpose? Caliman73 Feb 2024 #50
I'd say claudette Feb 2024 #51
They cant angrychair Feb 2024 #54
They had that problem in 1861. Progressive dog Feb 2024 #55
California, too. Torchlight Feb 2024 #56
one more thing to consider moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #57
Something like this: Happy Hoosier Feb 2024 #62

Arthur_Frain

(1,873 posts)
11. One didn't have to be present from 1861 to 1865 to learn it.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 03:01 AM
Feb 2024

But Texas will learn it again, if they have to.

leftieNanner

(15,220 posts)
3. Ultimately
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 01:51 AM
Feb 2024

All federal property and $$$ is gone. I think Abbott likes to talk about it, but don't think he's so stupid to actually follow through.

Scrivener7

(51,123 posts)
39. WE should be showing what an empty threat it is. Whenever the topic is raised by a republiQan, our
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 10:25 AM
Feb 2024

response should be, "By all means, give it a go. We'll even promise not to mount any kind of military response. But you have to promise to let us know how it goes. Because we'll have the popcorn ready."

d_r

(6,907 posts)
53. I am totally down for packing Texas's bags
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:57 PM
Feb 2024

El peso will be a part of New Mexico the next day. The military base closures and end to social security and Medicaid checks will have them crying in one month.

DemocraticPatriot

(4,570 posts)
6. "Let the erring sisters go in peace--- and cut them off
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 01:57 AM
Feb 2024

as you would a diseased branch from an otherwise healthy tree..."

Horace Greeley may have said something like that, in early 1861...somebody did, anyway..


On the other hand, the power of the United States military is much greater than that of all the neo-Confederate states put together, today...
if they think they could beat it, they are living in fantasyland...

The question would be, are we better off with them, or without them ?

I am ambivalent about forcing such states to remain in the Union "at the point of the bayonet"....
if they really want to go off on their own...

(and I don't think they are worth retaining, at the price of blood of our troops)

Then again, I would not be opposed to seal-teams going in there and taking out a few of the most smelly secessionist politicians,
if they actually attempted to secede.


There was a secessionist Facebook group who locked their page yesterday--- after the question of whether they would still receive their Social Security checks arose, LOL--- then they suddenly made their group "private" LMAO







William Gustafson

(303 posts)
7. Just to play along with the question...
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:15 AM
Feb 2024

who would run the new country of Texanstan?
what kind of government would they have?
Could we build a wall around them and have them pay for it?

Just a few questions to get the mind going....

have a nice day!

Omnipresent

(5,768 posts)
34. Yes, one of the demands of Texas succession would be that they build and pay for the wall...
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:49 AM
Feb 2024

Around the Texas Border!

lastlib

(23,469 posts)
36. Would the Dallas Cowboys be eligible for the Super Bowl?
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 10:06 AM
Feb 2024

(like they'd ever get there............ )

Would Univ. of Texas have to pull out of the NCAA?

HMMmmmmmm..............

Captain Zero

(6,911 posts)
40. Would TX electoral votes be seceded from the election?
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 10:27 AM
Feb 2024

Somebody is toast if that happens. Also lowers the GQP count in the house and senate.
Democratic Majorities.

TwilightZone

(25,557 posts)
9. No point in wasting time on a hypothetical that simply isn't possible.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:36 AM
Feb 2024

Hell, I live in Texas and DU talks about secession way more than anyone around here. Here, it's the same few loons who wander around the capitol with handwritten signs and get sporadic media attention. On DU, it sometimes seems like people are obsessed with it, even though it's simply not possible.

Settled law, 1869.

Rstrstx

(1,406 posts)
12. It's an astroturf campaign by the usual Russian suspects
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 03:17 AM
Feb 2024

They know how to amplify it in the echo chambers. Only the tin-foil hatters halfway believe this crap

moonshinegnomie

(2,524 posts)
13. heres what would happen
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 03:35 AM
Feb 2024

using texas as an example.
all us military bases closed and troops withdrawn. that will destroy a big chunk of the economy. ft hood (i know its been renamed but dont remember the new name) is one of the largest bases in the country.
all airports could be shuttered as air traffic controlers are employed by the US
texas would have to enact a large income tax. no more federal dollars coming int the state.
texas complains about the border now,imagine all border patrol officers leaving
the US could cripple the texas economy with a tariff on oil/gas imports from teh new country
all banks would lose fdic insurance. bank run anyone?????
the us could ban texas sports teams from playing in the US. imaging texas's reaction to no more cowboy,texas,aggie,or longhorn football games.

and thats just a start

Buckeyeblue

(5,509 posts)
19. All of these things...and probably a civil war within Texas
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 06:59 AM
Feb 2024

It wouldn't take long for poor people--and there will be a lot more of them as the Texas economy tanks--to revolt. There are a lot of guns in Texas. I think you'd see a lot of gang-like organizations trying to exert their will.

I suspect OK, AR, LA and NM would get a lot of refugees from Texas seeking a better life.

moonshinegnomie

(2,524 posts)
45. im considering colorado
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 12:34 PM
Feb 2024

i moved to austin to escape winter 14 years ago but texas was nowhere near the hellhole it is now. theres 3 things stopping me
1) housing costs are higher anywher id like to live in colorado even compared to austin
2) ive built up a community of friends here and wouldnt want to start over at my age
3) ive moved long distances several times in my life. its an enormous PITA

moonshinegnomie

(2,524 posts)
59. thats also a possibility
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 06:03 PM
Feb 2024

but im picky. i was in alburquerque 20 years ago and wasnt very impressed. the santa fe area might be a possibility. what id really love is boulder colorado but thats pricey even for colorado.
I need a big city,a decent climate reasonable taxes and a good renaissance festival i can go to many times a year

.

Vogon_Glory

(9,143 posts)
31. Also, a lot of the idiots pushin secession are whites
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:28 AM
Feb 2024

who haven’t thought things out. Thanks to higher birth-rates, the Hispanic population of Texas is higher (Yes, I said HIGHER!) than the number of Euro-Americans.

Admittedly many Texas Hispanics are folks whose families have been here for several generations (A claim many Texas Anglos are unable to make) and are primarily English-speakers, but the ethnicity of the reborn Republic of Texas would shift away from the majority-white fantasy many (racist) Texas secessionists.

And considering the abysmal quality of governance that Texas Republicans have displayed over the last quarter-century, it wouldn’t take long for the reborn Republic of Texas to become another basket case like Venezuela or Argentina.

machoneman

(4,026 posts)
32. No SS payments to TX folks. No longer citizens, passports invalidated and no chance to travel anywhere. Stock....
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:43 AM
Feb 2024

..market trades not possible thru the NYSE. Bonds the State of TX holds for loans invalidated and lenders demand immediate repayment. Geez, I've got a dozen other things TX would lose but it's pointless to keep this going. Secession ain't ever gonna happen!

Zeitghost

(3,916 posts)
47. Outside of SS payments
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 01:31 PM
Feb 2024

I don't think much of that matters. There is no requirement to be an American in order to trade on the NYSE. Financial instruments like loans and bonds would still be valid. The new Nation of Texas could issue passports.

But as you say, it ain't going to happen, not because of the things you state, but because Texans have no real interest in independence.

Zeitghost

(3,916 posts)
46. IIRC
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 01:27 PM
Feb 2024

Texas is a net contributor to the federal treasury. So in theory they would be able to fund most services the Feds currently provide at a level proportional to their population. Defense spending would be tricky because total military spending is a lot more important when projecting military power than per person spending, but then a theoretical independent Texas probably wouldn't need to fund a global military like the US does.

Of course, none of this matters as Texas isn't going anywhere and outside a few kooks, Texans have no interest in seceding. But it does make for fun internet discussions.

LiberalFighter

(51,647 posts)
60. Would not be eligible for Social Security or Medicare.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 06:23 PM
Feb 2024

No federal tax refunds.
Fewer obygns?
They will probably have to install toll roads.

moonshinegnomie

(2,524 posts)
61. they already have toll roads here
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 06:44 PM
Feb 2024

rather than building new freeways they prefer adding toll lanes to existing highways.
since its not a "tax" rethugs are fine with it.

LudwigPastorius

(9,341 posts)
16. Send in the FBI accompanied by troops to...
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 04:50 AM
Feb 2024

arrest those who declared the state independent, whether that be the legislature or Governor.

Declare martial law and promote those politicians who were against secession to leadership positions until elections could be called to fill the vacancies.

Elessar Zappa

(14,180 posts)
17. They'd lose all federal funding and benefits.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 05:12 AM
Feb 2024

No federal dollars for education, roads, healthcare, no social security or Medicare, military bases would be removed, etc. But the whole discussion is academic because it isn’t going to happen.

dsc

(52,187 posts)
21. I don't see why Social Security would stop for current beneficiaries
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 07:35 AM
Feb 2024

I assume if I move to France upon retirement my SS would follow me as it is my benefit.

Bucky

(54,162 posts)
25. I'm pretty sure if you renounce your citizenship you lose SSI
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:06 AM
Feb 2024

It might work like a personal retirement fund, but it's really a public benefit for American citizens and taxpayers

unblock

(52,618 posts)
28. There are some pitfalls, but you can continue to collect benefits if you properly earned them
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:19 AM
Feb 2024

Which country you move to matters, how you relinquish citizenship matters, whether you return to America enough (I believe it's 1 month out of every 6), probably a few other factors. But if you follow procedures you can still collect as a non-citizen.

CincyDem

(6,429 posts)
41. Texas gets $1.60 in return for every $1.00 it sends to Washington. That alone makes this a RW fantasy. n/t
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:16 AM
Feb 2024

hlthe2b

(102,681 posts)
20. Their economy folds day one, no functioning airports, shipping ends from nearly every US company
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 07:16 AM
Feb 2024

due to the uncertainty of travel into the newly developed border, their residents lose all government aid including SS and Medicare, and no security of their current banking (no FDIC)... So, whether or not it incites a military response, it would be like a mini Brexit only with the impacts IMMEDIATE and magnified by infinity. States like Texas and Florida would think they could survive that, given their substantial coastlines allowing trade outside the US, but that would make (at least Florida) at risk from outside players in a time of uncertainty, and without the US military, who would protect them from a modern-day Cuba Missile Crisis or targeted attacks from unstable forces in those countries that we've been facing the flood of refugees emerging from (like Venezuela)?

Emile

(23,460 posts)
22. Exactly +1
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 07:38 AM
Feb 2024

Hell just closing down the military bases in Texas would destroy the states economy overnight.

JPK

(656 posts)
52. Not to mention
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:52 PM
Feb 2024

All the military industrial complex there like Lockheed and Boeing having to move their facilities. They make the F-35 there. Not to mention NASA moving out as well.

Attilatheblond

(2,320 posts)
43. Latin American drug cartels have boats, even some big ones, possibly some submarines
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:31 AM
Feb 2024

Cartels also have a lot of guns/ammo, much of which is smuggled into Mexico by.... US citizens.

So I would have second thoughts about a US blockade and might consider letting the cartels take over ports in TX. Abbott and other Texas GOP pols like to talk about an invasion, OK, let their fears materialize.

bucolic_frolic

(43,685 posts)
27. It would become mass shakeout of property rights and debts, just like a divorce
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 09:19 AM
Feb 2024

TX would be obligated for its share of the federal debt. All federal monies to TX would cease. Federal properties in the state sold to pay federal debt. Federal payments to citizens treated as if they lived in a foreign country, which they would at that point. Would TX citizens put up with it? No, once the fallout started. So it's all bluster.

Scrivener7

(51,123 posts)
37. Texas? The smart thing would be to say, "Buh bye" and wait for THEM to beg to come back.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 10:18 AM
Feb 2024

Because that would be inevitable. And it would happen quick.

Voltaire2

(13,437 posts)
44. Dissolution is the least worst path forward.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:32 AM
Feb 2024

The federal government is massively dysfunctional, and because of immutable structural problems in the constitution, specifically the Senate and the electoral college, and the fact that the House is no longer particularly representative (the constitution states 'The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand', but we are currently at 780,000 per rep,) and the cultural chasm between the illiberal authoritarian right and, well, sane and normal people, there is no hope for progress, and all we are doing is trying to prevent overt fascism.

The fuckwit states should secede and we should wish them well on their journey.

Aristus

(66,622 posts)
49. Let 'em go, and fuck 'em.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:02 PM
Feb 2024

The Civil War was different. The seceding states were holding people captive. That wouldn't be the case this time. People in seceding states would be able to leave if they chose.

Caliman73

(11,764 posts)
50. For what purpose?
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 02:19 PM
Feb 2024

I know this is discussion site, but this topic has likely been done to death.

On DU you will get a few different types of response.

1. Can't happen. No need to discuss.
2. Let them go. Fuck em. Build Wall.
3. Sell Texas back to Mexico.
4. Maybe someone will go into depth about history and legal issues.

If you want to actually get information about secession and the viewpoints and legal treatises on the topic, there are a lot of places where people with more training and information are doing that.

Here are a few:

[link:https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/research/article/strategies-of-secession-and-counter-secession|]

[link:https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/sixteen-months-to-sumter/newspaper-index/cincinnati-daily-commercial/the-right-of-secession|]

[link:https://prospect.org/power/02-23-2023-republicans-secession-confederacy-treason/|]

[link:https://www.penncapital-star.com/commentary/secession-is-here-already-what-can-we-do-about-it-opinion/|]

[link:https://www.governing.com/now/we-cant-all-get-along-whats-driving-modern-secession-movements|]

[link:https://www.texastribune.org/2021/01/29/texas-secession/|]

Knock yourself out.


angrychair

(8,790 posts)
54. They cant
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 03:11 PM
Feb 2024

They can say they are "seceding" but it's not a thing. There is, very literally, no mechanism for it to happen. Not in the Constitution nor in federal law.

Torchlight

(3,528 posts)
56. California, too.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 03:54 PM
Feb 2024

Despite tiny degrees of difference in popularity for the dueling sentiments between the states, the one is as likely as the other.

moonshinegnomie

(2,524 posts)
57. one more thing to consider
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 05:03 PM
Feb 2024

if texas were to secede what would they use for money? they couldnt use the us dollar (in theory they could but do you really think they would use the currency of the country they just left?)

that means they need a new currency. lets call it the dumbfuck dollar dd for short. the country would have to decide whether to use an asset backed currency (gold standard) or fiat currency which is what the dollar is. it for all intents and purposes only has value because people believe in it. as a seperate countru who would have the faith to invest in these new dd's? certainly no outside intelligent investor excpet for a few numb nuts maybe. but other than that nope. and who would invest in this new countries debt. no one with a brain would.


between the economic collapse and the fact that most people here are armed texas would become the new somalia,run by warlords. a true 3rd world hellhole. (and id be out of here in a heartbeat)

Happy Hoosier

(7,526 posts)
62. Something like this:
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 06:54 PM
Feb 2024

1) Freeze all state assets.
2) inform any companies operating in that state, that all government contracts are frozen for operations in the state. . Lockheed Martin will love that.
3) all Federal payments suspended, including social security.
4) initiate court action.
5) place all US Military and Federal LEOs on alert status.
5) Federalize and mobilize the National Guard.


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