Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

gab13by13

(32,348 posts)
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 10:40 PM Feb 2024

Judge Engoron Delays Ruling Until Mid-February

This may be good news folks. I am guessing the delays stems over new evidence uncovered by the person keeping tabs on Trump's finances, mainly the 48 million dollar loan Trump took out on himself. This isn't just about avoiding taxes, it is more fraud.

I hope I am right on this.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/01/trump-fraud-trial-verdict-delayed

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Judge Engoron Delays Ruling Until Mid-February (Original Post) gab13by13 Feb 2024 OP
I think your idea is correct too! GreenWave Feb 2024 #1
That is what I thought. Including it will solidify his ruling. LiberalFighter Feb 2024 #2
I agree, gab13by13 Feb 2024 #9
Who knows nowadays? But, we are looking at a $370 Million case. Can't see delaying it Silent Type Feb 2024 #3
Then we have Hunter Biden who got caught gab13by13 Feb 2024 #6
It still amounts to less than 10% of the $370 prosecutors are requesting. Why delay for that? Silent Type Feb 2024 #12
As post #2 stated gab13by13 Feb 2024 #13
Just don't think $48 M is reason for a two week delay. Silent Type Feb 2024 #15
Republicans starved and weakened the IRS so they didn't have the personnel to dedicate to a highly complicated summer_in_TX Feb 2024 #21
You wouldn't understand. dchill Feb 2024 #28
There is also the admission of perjury by weiselberg..... getagrip_already Feb 2024 #4
This is what I thought as well. SleeplessinSoCal Feb 2024 #17
THIS malaise Feb 2024 #31
+! struggle4progress Feb 2024 #33
I suspect Trump is trying to get a bond for EJ Carroll damages Jarqui Feb 2024 #5
I stated in several posts gab13by13 Feb 2024 #7
He's already getting threats Jarqui Feb 2024 #27
Might be because of this : yliza Feb 2024 #8
I am sorry, I mean absolutely no disrespect gab13by13 Feb 2024 #10
So much shit by Trump, hard to keep up. triron Feb 2024 #19
This can't be repeated enough edhopper Feb 2024 #32
Yes. That seems right. mcar Feb 2024 #11
It isn't just more fraud InstantGratification Feb 2024 #14
Well explained, gab13by13 Feb 2024 #20
exactly InstantGratification Feb 2024 #23
I've given up on guessing or speculating. Barry Markson Feb 2024 #16
Anither DU'er suggested Presidents' Day, but court would not be in session, niyad Feb 2024 #18
WRONG! brooklynite Feb 2024 #22
Except this isn't criminal Justice Fiendish Thingy Feb 2024 #24
It brings up a good point about moniss Feb 2024 #26
Yep, I think you are correct and the person you responded to is wrong. honest.abe Feb 2024 #35
But edhopper Feb 2024 #34
Reminder that there are TWO parts of the case. brooklynite Feb 2024 #37
I thought the Judge edhopper Feb 2024 #38
He already ruled on dissolution of the Trump businesses... brooklynite Feb 2024 #39
But the article edhopper Feb 2024 #40
This is also beneficial to the E Jean case moniss Feb 2024 #25
no chance he files for BK over this moonshinegnomie Feb 2024 #29
I have a theory Jarqui Feb 2024 #30
Thank you for sharing your theory. It's laid out with a kind of logic that I can follow and totally get. msfiddlestix Feb 2024 #41
Probably considering a steeper penalty. honest.abe Feb 2024 #36
 

Silent Type

(12,412 posts)
3. Who knows nowadays? But, we are looking at a $370 Million case. Can't see delaying it
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:02 PM
Feb 2024

for what might be a debatable tax issue that takes years to resolve. This issue was investigated — at least by reporters— at least back in 2019.

In worst case, trump’s lawyers would likely work out a deal for what taxes would have been and interest had the full $48 M been reported. Point is, trump might pay $20 Million, unless government decides to stomp on him.

gab13by13

(32,348 posts)
6. Then we have Hunter Biden who got caught
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:10 PM
Feb 2024

not paying his taxes, he paid them back and was still indicted, not to mention it was plastered all over the MSM.

Trump took out a bogus loan to himself.

I just did my taxes today and I freaking guarantee that if I claim a bogus 4,000 dollar deduction with fake documents, the IRS is going to nail me to the wall.

Why the hell hasn't the IRS been investigating Trump?

 

Silent Type

(12,412 posts)
12. It still amounts to less than 10% of the $370 prosecutors are requesting. Why delay for that?
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:20 PM
Feb 2024

summer_in_TX

(4,168 posts)
21. Republicans starved and weakened the IRS so they didn't have the personnel to dedicate to a highly complicated
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:57 PM
Feb 2024

tax return like Trumps…

From Gingrich's time on and perhaps earlier, the IRS has not had the level of staffing needed to do a proper tax audit. Until now.

getagrip_already

(17,802 posts)
4. There is also the admission of perjury by weiselberg.....
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:07 PM
Feb 2024

Which could have a direct bearing of perjury by the trumps.

That, would leave a mark. And directly impact the monetary penalties.

Weiselberg is probably a much bigger deal than the spring loan. It would explain the delay since the plea is still being negotiated.

Jarqui

(10,909 posts)
5. I suspect Trump is trying to get a bond for EJ Carroll damages
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:10 PM
Feb 2024

This delay may mess that up.

For those interested, this is a good link for the docket
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=FX5LeuzFvFRaeD3C6Ob/SA==&display=all&courtType=New%20York%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1

This was a really neat chart that gives you some sense of how well they figured Trump fraud out
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=AZZxPVLi3GbCD7i0pGls0Q==

As I was looking over the case:
- knowing how Trump will unleash every avenue of attack - legal and media,
- from the court docs, knowing how detailed and complex the case is - over 30 instances,
- from the law they're going Trump after with, knowing that has some novelties with disgorgement
I was wondering how this judge could pull together his decision so quickly and make it as bulletproof as he could.

So on that basis alone, the delay doesn't surprise me.

One of my best friends is a prosecutor who specialized in fraud. He's a past Trumper (can't stand him now).
We've had some testy debates over this case. There are some counter arguments out there.

Then the Jones letter comes Jan 26th.

I'm still a little surprised he'll be ready for Trump hell (he already had a bomb scare at his home) by mid February.

gab13by13

(32,348 posts)
7. I stated in several posts
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:12 PM
Feb 2024

that I am certain that judge Engoron is thinking about the death threats he is about to get. That is Trump's strategy.

I heard but did not see that Trump is also attacking the monitor.

Jarqui

(10,909 posts)
27. He's already getting threats
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 01:20 AM
Feb 2024

Police respond to bomb threat at home of judge in Trump N.Y. fraud trial
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/11/bomb-threat-judge-ny-fraud-trial/
He's been swatted as well as other threats
His law clerk has been subjected to a flood of threats from Trump supporters

Trump's lawyers attacked the monitor in a court filing
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=rQkPFBkpjRoTmPJ_PLUS_cUP43Q==

Media picked it up as Trump lashed out:

Trump lawyers say company being tyrannized in Les Misérables parallel
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/29/trump-lawyers-les-miserables-fraud-trial
They disparaged her suggesting she was carrying this on for money, etc

Trumps Throw Tantrum Over Court Monitor’s Financial Bombshell
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-throw-tantrum-over-court-monitors-financial-bombshell

Trump lashes out at financial monitor in business fraud case after she reports errors
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/29/trump-attacks-monitor-in-business-fraud-case-after-she-reports-errors.html

It will get worse before it gets better for Jones & Engoron

yliza

(207 posts)
8. Might be because of this :
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:12 PM
Feb 2024
https://www.mediaite.com/news/elie-honig-blown-away-by-stunning-clause-in-trump-execs-deal-barring-him-from-cooperating-with-law-enforcement-ive-never-heard-of-such-a-thing

The former Chief Financial Officer of the Trump Organization is reportedly in talks to plead guilty to perjury, the New York Times reported Thursday.

In October, Forbes reported that Weisselberg lied under oath when he testified about figures he gave about the size of the Trump Tower penthouse.

Sources familiar with the matter told the Times that Allen Weisselberg would have to admit he lied while testifying in former President Donald Trump’s ongoing civil fraud case in New York. A clause in the $2 million severance package Weisselberg received from the Trump Organization seeks to prohibit him from cooperating with law enforcement unless he is legally required to do so. But as CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig said, that provision is likely unenforceable.


Textbook obstruction of justice. Maybe Engeron will recommend a criminal investigation.

gab13by13

(32,348 posts)
10. I am sorry, I mean absolutely no disrespect
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:17 PM
Feb 2024

but I giggled a little bit.

Prosecutors Pomerantz and Dunne had the go ahead from Cy Vance to indict Trump for financial fraud and Alvin Bragg pulled the plug.

edhopper

(37,375 posts)
32. This can't be repeated enough
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 10:44 AM
Feb 2024

If Bragg had not pulled the plug, Trump would already be convicted on this.

14. It isn't just more fraud
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:26 PM
Feb 2024

It is ongoing fraud in a time frame when Trump knew he was being investigated for business fraud. It was ongoing fraud even after he was under indictment for business fraud. It was ongoing fraud even when a monitor had been appointed to watch over his business practices. The breathtaking arrogance of that.... wow, just wow. I would expect the 2 week delay to be all about nailing down the facts and then writing a bullet proof legal decision. Trump is sooooo toast in NY.....

gab13by13

(32,348 posts)
20. Well explained,
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:45 PM
Feb 2024

We shouldn't forget that Letitia is asking for a lifetime ban for Trump doing business in NY.

23. exactly
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 12:35 AM
Feb 2024

I failed to point it out, but this could turn an "appealable case" into something that is bullet proof at the appellate level.

 

Barry Markson

(280 posts)
16. I've given up on guessing or speculating.
Thu Feb 1, 2024, 11:28 PM
Feb 2024

The other day it was being speculated that the subpoena of the House Sargent-at-Arms records meant that more insurrectionist GOPers had their butts in a wringer.

Turns out it was Cori Bush being investigated by some Trumpian holdovers in the DOJ.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
22. WRONG!
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 12:05 AM
Feb 2024

This isn’t how criminal justice works. Evidence is presented in Court and is subject to cross-examination by the defense. The Judge doesn’t get to rule on “new evidence” after trial is finished. All we have at present is a news story. The AG has not filed a request to re-open the trial record, nor has she filed a new suit for the accusation.

Fiendish Thingy

(23,253 posts)
24. Except this isn't criminal Justice
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 12:37 AM
Feb 2024

Its civil court, the judge has already ruled that fraud took place. The last part of the trial was to calculate the amount to be disgorged from the Trump organization. The recent revelation by the court monitor regarding the loan may or may not be subject to the rules of evidence- it may simply be an accounting of assets and liabilities requested by the court to aid in calculating and processing the disgorgement.

Since it appears it wasn’t really a “loan”, but simply a transfer of cash from one Trump shell company to Trump, then there may be no “creditor” to be repaid when the disgorgement occurs.

I’m sure we will learn much, much more about what this all means in a couple of weeks.

moniss

(9,058 posts)
26. It brings up a good point about
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 12:55 AM
Feb 2024

whether a judge can take post trial facts into account when determining a trial judgement. I would think a defendant would use that as an appellate issue. The "damage" of the use, if the appellate court ruled it was improper, would probably be examined in light of the weight given by the trial court judge to the improper information in reaching the judgement amount and penalties.

When I first heard this about the monitor's report etc. it raised a question in my mind of whether a judge could reconvene the civil trial for examination of that report. I just don't know if it can be done or not.

edhopper

(37,375 posts)
34. But
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 10:55 AM
Feb 2024

Isn't the Special Monitor a part of this case and her report part of the Judge's deliberation. So maybe the OP is not "WRONG"

https://news.yahoo.com/special-monitor-suggests-trump-falsified-071730176.html

Tucked into a footnote in a letter written by a former federal judge, Barbara Jones — the court-appointed special monitor overseeing Donald Trump's New York business-fraud case — is a bombshell that appears to indicate the former president may have engaged in massive tax evasion, The Daily Beast reported.

The letter, first reported by The Messenger, was delivered Friday to update Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron on Jones' findings while reviewing the former president's business dealings through the Trump Organization.


So here we see the findings were done for Judge Engoron. On can only conclude that the findings, which include this suspect loan, were germane to his ruling.
 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
37. Reminder that there are TWO parts of the case.
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 11:17 AM
Feb 2024

The Special Monitor addresses the prohibition of Trump doing business in NYS. He has no role in the penalty phase, which is what we're currently waiting on.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
39. He already ruled on dissolution of the Trump businesses...
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 01:35 PM
Feb 2024

Its stayed pending appeal.

edhopper

(37,375 posts)
40. But the article
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 01:43 PM
Feb 2024

clearly states these findings are pertinent to his ruling. So why isn't this fake loan a part of that? Or have I lost the points we are discussing?

moniss

(9,058 posts)
25. This is also beneficial to the E Jean case
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 12:45 AM
Feb 2024

because moving past the 15 day limit to file an appeal is beneficial to her pursuing getting the money. First of all if he appeals and has to put up the bond or cash and then subsequently files bankruptcy after seeing the size of Erdogan's decision he cannot include the bond or cash as an asset. The law says it is not the bond/financial obligation is not considered as an asset for the appellant. In other words you can't borrow against it or encumber it which you would be doing if it were considered as an asset in a bankruptcy filing. Imagine the chaos it would be if you could put up the cash for the appeal in one case and then get someone to extend you a loan and pledge that same money as collateral. There are even crazier things that a creative crook could think up.

If the Erdogan decision goes past the 15 days and the Orange Ruski does not appeal the E Jean judgement she can immediately move against assets to collect the judgement including any and all cash in accounts. She could at least get the cash, stocks, bonds etc. quicker than proceeds from real estate that we know is encumbered to the hilt with loans and ownership interests that will take a long time to figure out before a sale to satisfy the judgement could proceed. There would be the possibility of E Jean being able to use the leverage of releasing interest in a real estate asset in exchange for a certain dollar figure.

It is not likely that he would file for a bankruptcy because of the 83.3 number but if Erdogan goes for numbers between 300 and 500 it may very well be enough for the deadbeat to file. So a delay does give E Jean more hope of seeing some money sooner. If the OR does file for bankruptcy right away within the 15 days I believe his creditors will immediately move the BC to remove his personal access to the various PAC's money. I believe they would be successful because he has a clear record of having used the PAC money for his personal use. In bankruptcy you cannot have a bunch of side streams of money in order to continue on your merry way and to evade paying your obligations.

moonshinegnomie

(4,024 posts)
29. no chance he files for BK over this
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 01:42 AM
Feb 2024

it would end any chance he has of election. his whole house of cards of being a genius would crumble

Jarqui

(10,909 posts)
30. I have a theory
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 10:30 AM
Feb 2024

Here's the complaint:
https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/tto_complaint.pdf

Weisselberg is a defendant on the first page
Weisselberg's name is roughly on every other page of the complaint

There is about to be a judgement against the people & companies/entities on the first page of $370 mil plus prejudgement interest and probably punitive damages which will probably drive it up to something like $600 mil to get a bond for appeal.

At the end of the case, in the conclusions and what the AG asked for:
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=vj5YecyV8OgZcXmBAw9Ivg==
Weisselberg's name is roughly on every page twice (average)
And they unload how Trump let him resign after his criminal case but kept him on the payroll with a severance package geared to keep his mouth shut.
AG James named Weisselberg as liable on most of the counts.

During the deposition, like the Trumps, Weisselberg took the 5th from which the judge may draw negative inferences from in a/this civil case.

There was this report of last February
Former Trump Executive, Already Jailed, Could Face More Fraud Charges
Manhattan prosecutors warned that they might charge Allen H. Weisselberg with insurance fraud to pressure him to cooperate in an investigation of the former president.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/02/nyregion/trump-weisselberg-fraud.html

That Zurich insurance deal and what was wrong with it is detailed in AG James complaint

In this CNN report, the talk about more issues with Weisselberg and what he told them or did.

&ab_channel=CNN

And now after they've gone through everything, they've may have got him on perjury which opens up the possibility of ending his 5 years probation and letting him serve that in prison while Engoron's decision wipes out all his assets in bankruptcy.

He's facing losing everything and dying in prison. Maybe it is "Let's Make a Deal" time (very late in the game for that but he's desperate).

So, let's go back for a moment. AG James files the 200+ page complaint and she lays it all out for over 30 significant instances of fraud
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=AZZxPVLi3GbCD7i0pGls0Q==
Trump et al respond to the complaint.
Then Eric, Donald & Weisselberg take the 5th hundreds of times each in the deposition - which the judge can draw adverse inferences from.
The judge comes back with a summary judgement - that Trump et al were unable to refute AG James complaint enough to warrant a trial on whether he committed what AG James claimed. In his mind, AG James proved her case in the complaint so thoroughly that Trump had no answer - he couldn't poke credible holes in it to warrant a trial. The only thing left to sort out was the argument over how much the damages would be.

So Weisselberg is looking at this and saying to himself "I'm f*cked financially and otherwise". What does he have to lose to chat things over with the AG office to see if he can cut some kind of a deal - even though it is late in the game.

AG James is in a good position obviously. Whatever Weisselberg has to offer better be really good because she's about to get a decision from the judge in her favor. And Weisselberg is a very key witness in the DA Bragg Stormy Daniels payoff criminal case.

Weisselberg flipping could be like the Capone bookkeeper. It could sew up AG James case and DA Bragg's criminal case.

I do not fully agree with those who question his credibility and dismiss him as a witness. He knows where all the financial bodies are buried. He can help them prove their case without any testimony. And he can probably tell why he couldn't come forward - about Trump's threats - which may lead to other charges like obstruction of justice.

Pure speculation on my part. But if the above has any merit, you can understand why the judge might take a moment to get all the details.

This could be a very devastating development against Trump.

msfiddlestix

(8,178 posts)
41. Thank you for sharing your theory. It's laid out with a kind of logic that I can follow and totally get.
Fri Feb 2, 2024, 05:56 PM
Feb 2024

I understand it's speculation, but it still makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
I am unable to follow these legal cases that the chief psychopath is engulfed in.
I just "check in" once or twice a week these days. So again thanks.

Looks like we're not likely to hear about anything for a couple of weeks or so, if I'm following current events accurately.
Looking forward to the updates...

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Judge Engoron Delays Ruli...