Senator Van Hollen: ''Kids in Gaza are now dying from the deliberate withholding of food. That is a war crime.''

[Donkees]

Speaking on the US Senate floor, Chris Van Hollen, a Democrat representing the state of Maryland, accused Israel of war crimes in the Gaza Strip.

“Kids in Gaza are now dying from the deliberate withholding of food. That is a war crime. It is a textbook war crime. And that makes those who orchestrate it war criminals.”

“So now the question is what will the United States do?” he asks. “What will we do? What will President Biden do? President Biden must take action in response to what is happening.”

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1gqxvQMQDyeJB

Link to tweet

[Donkees]

1. 'Van Hollen Joins Welch in Calling for Delivery of Urgently Needed Humanitarian Aid to Civilians in Gaza'

FEBRUARY 09, 2024

Van Hollen Joins Welch in Calling for Delivery of Urgently Needed Humanitarian Aid to Civilians in Gaza
U.S. Senator Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) joined Senator Peter Welch (D-Vt.) alongside their colleagues in introducing a resolution calling on the Administration to work with allies and partners within the international community to dramatically increase humanitarian aid to Gaza in order to prevent further spread of disease and starvation. Senator Welch was joined by Senators Tim Kaine (D-Va.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Tina Smith (D-Minn.), Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), Cory Booker (D-N.J.), Michael … Continue Reading

https://www.vanhollen.senate.gov/news/press-releases

[elleng]

2. Glad my Senator sees and speaks clearly.

[claudette]

3. 🥲

Nuttyahoo needs to be in prison. He is as bad as the Dumpy orange criminal.

[Tetrachloride]

4. there may be some in DU who deny this

i am not one of those.

[Mosby]

24. Prove it then

Because it's not true, just an antisemitic lie.

No one is starving to death in Gaza.

[Sky Jewels]

69. This comment is beyond

delusional.

SMDH

[Alpeduez21]

77. Wow

You are being lied to by wherever it is you get your news

[Mosby]

79. Hard to believe you're so poorly informed.

Last edited Thu Feb 15, 2024, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Not only is no one starving to death in Gaza, but the Arab countries are actively making it worse for Gazans. Egypt, a country of 110 million people, hasn't taken a SINGLE Palestinian, neither has the Hashemite kingdom. Not a single one.

A 15 hour drive from Gaza, there is an air conditioned/heated permanent tent city that can hold 3 million people. Why aren't the Saudis helping? Because they, like the rest of the Arab dictatorships, want to see Israel and the Jews gone, that's why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina,_Saudi_Arabia

[Orrex]

89. Out of curiosity, do you actually believe any of that?

[Mosby]

94. .

Why Egypt doesn't want Palestinians in Gaza to cross the border

"The Palestinian cause is the mother of all causes..."

Abdel Fattah el-Sisi

Seems like he's a little obsessed with Israel.

Meanwhile King Abdullah, the dictator of Jordan had this to say:

Jordan's King Abdullah on Tuesday warned against trying to push Palestinian refugees into Egypt or Jordan, adding that the humanitarian situation must to be dealt with inside Gaza and the West Bank.

"That is a red line, because I think that is the plan by certain of the usual suspects to try and create de facto issues on the ground. No refugees in Jordan, no refugees in Egypt," King Abdullah said at a news conference following a meeting with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Berlin.

So I guess better they starve to death than allow them access to safety in Jordan because that would be a win for Israel? Who TF thinks like that?

As for Saudi Arabia, they seem to think that Hamas et al should be rewarded for their horrific violence with a nation, because that's seems like a reasonable ask to them.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/king-abdullah-gaza-no-refugees-jordan-no-refugees-egypt-2023-10-17/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/12/1218388766/egypt-israel-gaza-palestinians-hamas
https://time.com/6564983/saudi-arabia-israel-palestinian-state/

[Mosby]

95. Egypt is building the Mother of All Walls to keep out Palestinians.

Egypt is building a new walled buffer zone more than 2 miles wide on Gaza border, satellite images show

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/16/middleeast/egypt-wall-buffer-zone-gaza-border-intl-hnk/index.html

[Tetrachloride]

102. this is 99 percent true, regarding Egypt

[malaise]

5. We called this out ages ago

Effin evil.

[Orrex]

8. Give it a minute, and someone will assure us that Hamas can end this today

[malaise]

9. Yep

Rec

[LymphocyteLover]

13. maybe not everything would end but

a lot of destruction and suffering would end if Hamas surrendered and gave up the hostages... gee, why is it that they don't?

[Orrex]

16. Couple reasons, I'd guess

They probably don’t believe that Netanyahu would end the military campaign if Hamas complies, and who can blame them?

Hamas isn’t a lockstep monolith, so it’s not realistic to demand compliance from the entire group

According to NPR, Hamas isn’t the only group holding holding hostages in Gaza, so even if Hamas complies, there will still be hostages, and Netanyahu would use this to justify his continued military campaign

What would it mean for Hamas to surrender? All members to submit themselves for judgment and punishment? No defeated army has ever done so in human history, so making it a requirement here is a deliberate demand for the impossible


And while we ponder why a brutal, murderous terrorist regime doesn’t suddenly step up to the right thing, the overwhelmingly dominant military force in the region continues to starve children by the thousands.

[ripcord]

25. You really had to go through all that?

Why don't you accept the reason Hamas states, that they will not stop until Israel is erased from the world and all the Jews in the Middle East are dead.

[Orrex]

29. That's a lot of words to say that you approve of Netanyahu deliberately starving thousands of children

Last edited Wed Feb 14, 2024, 01:10 AM - Edit history (2)

Hamas is a terrorist organization and should be destroyed, full stop. Do you believe that they can eradicate Israel? Of course they can’t, so the threat is ultimately hollow and can’t seriously be used to justify thousands upon thousands of civilian deaths, unless (as you seem to assert) Israel has no power of self-determination and can only act according to Hamas’ will.

The overwhelmingly dominant military force in the region should stop claiming moral authority to starve children.

[radius777]

53. Especially since Israel is using western weapons,

that we supply them, our tax dollars should not be used for genocide and starving of babies. There is no 'war', only cowards and racists bombing the defenseless. Just as our illegal invasions of Iraq etc were unjustified ('war on terror') neocon project - so to is this - using a terrorist attack as a pretext.

[LymphocyteLover]

63. our tax dollars aren't going towards genocide or starving children

We haven't given Israel aid yet and we are giving aid to Gazans.

Also the idea that Israel is conducting genocide is highly debatable

[radius777]

66. Israel is supported and protected by the US

and the west more broadly. If Israel believes itself to be the superior nation in that region, then surely they can defeat their enemies without our help, economically or militarily. We should not be playing favorites in the region, and should have a more neutral position. Whether Israel exists as a state should be up to Israel.

[PufPuf23]

42. Hamas is peeing into a wind storm to believe it feasible to erase Israel and kill all Jews.

October 7 was an atrocity.

The ongoing destruction of Gaza is an atrocity.

I can hold these thoughts in my head at the same time.

[LymphocyteLover]

44. Surrendering means you give up and ask for mercy and an end to the conflict. You can negotiate peace terms.

Last edited Tue Feb 13, 2024, 09:30 PM - Edit history (1)

" All members to submit themselves for judgment and punishment? "-- not sure what you mean exactly but generally that's what surrendering is.

"No defeated army has ever done so in human history, so making it a requirement here is a deliberate demand for the impossible"-- You're not familiar with the Nuremburg trials? I'm sure there are other examples too. The Japanese surrendered to us too and there were military tribunals for their war crimes as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

[Orrex]

47. Those comparisons are meaningless because Hamas is not a state

An actual comparison would be to Al Qaeda or the Taliban, nebulous groups with transient membership and no true center, so that no true surrender is possible, as Netanyahu certainly knows. Of course, making an impossible demand is a terrific way to grant oneself permanent authority to act without accountability.

Meanwhile Netanyahu continues to starve children by the thousands.

[radius777]

52. +1. Israel is a RW Likud regime, which is conflating

terrorists groups with Palestinian civilians with the goal of purging them from Gaza so he can steal it for himself.

The supporters of such a regime are no better than those who support Putin against Ukraine.

Both leaders view the situation in ethnonationalist terms, taking revenge on civilians in the process.

Bibi and the neocon Zionists see Hamas and Palestinians as one and the same - it's what they won't say out loud.

[radius777]

67. And it's not like Hamas is a democratically elected gov't

in the traditional sense that responds to inputs from people or cares about them. And even if it was - civilians should always be off limits.

All countries including our own have engaged in atrocities - does that mean we as citizens deserve to be targeted? No, of course not. I did not vote for Bush and his wars (which I protested against) , or Trump and his many evils. So to blame citizens for actions of leaders is just dumb at best and genocidal at worst. Especially when those people are oppressed as the Palestinians are, with little economic or political self determination.

[edisdead]

82. THEY. TOOK. THE. HOSTAGES. IN. THE. FIRST. PLACE!!!!

whether or not they believe anyone doesn’t fucking matter. Return the hostages. Full fucking stop.

[TheKentuckian]

143. They don't get to set any terms and it is their own credibility that is trash

they broke the last ceasefire.

Not a monolith? No excuse, they took the hostages they are responsible and accountable.

They want food? They can release the hostages or see if mana is on the menu.

They want water? They can release the hostages or hope for a puddle.

They want a ceasefire? Fucking surrender. Final offer.

There should have never been any negotiations in the first place, all it did was set some crazy expectation that they are in any position to demand a damn thing.

[Orrex]

145. You are, of course, arguing in favor of Israel killing all Palestinians

Which frankly seems 100% on-brand, given your other screeds.

You are making an impossible demand, knowing that it's impossible, with the sole purpose of providing cover for Netanyahu's murderous campaign when Hamas fails to meet your impossible demand. You fail, deliberately or through culpable ignorance, to distinguish between Hamas and innocent Palestinians--why?

You are unable to engage this subject in a serious, realistic manner. Further discussion with you is pointless.

[TheKentuckian]

148. If the demand is impossible then what is the purpose if any negotiations efforts at all

Hamas can not be counted on to deliver a thing.
Not the hostages nor an end to hostilities as you assert, so they have nothing to offer but further rapes, mutilations, and massacres.

No deal for that.

By this definition any and all negotiations are in bad faith and only serve the interests of and empower Hamas.

Palestinians are distinct from Hamas?

Then they can give someone to deal with that has anything different to offer, the power to make it happen, and the will to do so including hunting down and eliminating "not Palestinians".

Otherwise, what is the practical and functional difference?

[womanofthehills]

62. Neutanyu will not stop bombing

Rafah - even if he got hostages. Did he ever say he would stop?

[LymphocyteLover]

64. He's bombing Rafah because that's where Hamas is now. I do wonder

how happy most Gazans are that Hamas is stubbornly holding on to the hostages and refusing to give up when there's no way Hamas can win.

[Alpeduez21]

78. Hostages were released during the ceasefire

If Israel is serious about the hostages maybe they should start another ceasefire

[sarisataka]

84. I assume you forgot who ended the ceasefire

Hint- it wasn't Israel

[LymphocyteLover]

85. wasn't hostages being released part of the ceasefire deal?

[TheKentuckian]

129. Absurdly absolutely slobbing Hamas.

Hamas broke the very ceasefire you referred to so now you can only be really saying is if Israel is serous about hostages taken by Hamas they better do whatever they say.

Fuck that. If that is the game then they better get serious about eliminating Hamas and cease worrying an iota about anything else.

[Butterflylady]

98. This is Middle East!!

Just in case one doesn't already know this.

[Voltaire2]

112. So the IDF has no agency?

They are compelled, by Hamas I suppose, to slaughter children?

[TheKentuckian]

131. They are compelled by Hamas to eliminate Hamas

That obligation to protect its own citizens doesn't end when they turn tail and hide behind their own women and children with hostages in tow and then continue their attacks.

You do not advocate for peace but rather for continued attacks with impunity on Israeli citizens and literally nothing else.

[Voltaire2]

133. So it is ok to kill children?

If a murderer uses a child as a human shield, it is ethical to kill the child in order to capture or kill the murderer?

[TheKentuckian]

136. It is unethical to leave tens of thousands to act as a deadly threat

to your citizens active to rape, mutilate and massacre them in order to supposedly insulate such actors children from harm.

Israel has children too, if Hamas values theirs so little as to make them sandbags and kevlar that is their own depravity but the threat must be ended.

No one but Hamas is targeting children and they will do so on their own for daring to get the food being distributed to them still even now.

Every war is a crime by this metric. There is no only the party responsible for the war suffers wars, that is unfortunately not how such actions do or even realistically can work and doubly so when the honorless attackers embed themselves into their own population down to the hospitals, places of worship, and schools.

[obamanut2012]

17. I am so exhausted with that reply

[Orrex]

22. It's about all they've got

For a while they were flinging accusations of antisemitism and of being pro-Hamas, when pretty much everyone has been clear all along that Hamas is a horror that needs to be destroyed.

Then they shifted the goalposts to “Hamas can stop this at any time,” because I suppose in their view Israel is completely beholden to Hamas with no capacity for self- determination.


Meanwhile children are eating grass and drinking from puddles.

[TheKentuckian]

38. A horror that must be destroyed but woe unto any actual effort

to do so or to arrive at any place without their continued rule.
It is also a demand that the terrorism must be rewarded.

Hell, folks were hand wringing because of a hostage rescue, I can only assume because it reduced Hamas' "leverage".

They have been lauded as Mandela style freedom fighters.

"Not Hamas" has harrassed Jewish folks for daring to exist.

Get on with this phony bullshit, the Death to Israel, Death to America, Death to the West crew has been crystal clear.

[Orrex]

46. Absolutely none of that justifies the forcible starving of thousands of children

If you think otherwise, please share your reasoning.

[TheKentuckian]

48. The goalpost have moved from not supporting Hamas

to so what if Hamas is supported but what about the children?

Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like must be completely defanged. Full stop.

Israel has children too. Generations of them living under this threat.

[Orrex]

50. You need to take that up with whoever moved the goalposts

Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like must be completely defanged. Full stop.

That has been my position all along, as I have repeated many times. I have never supported Hamas or Hezbollah, so I'd like to hear your reason for posting this in reply to me.

I also reject any bullshit claims that starving children to death is the way to defang Hamas.

Israel has children too. Generations of them living under this threat.

Do you seriously equate "living under this threat" with "starving to death in the streets" as is now happening in Gaza? If so, then nothing further can be gained from discussing this with you.

[TheKentuckian]

132. See the post I responded to. You were swimming in that stream.

Then responded with "it ain't me".

You are who you ride with.

[Orrex]

135. Guilt by association, eh? Perhaps next you'll advocate for collective punishment.

And let's be honest: quite a few of the ones you ride with are deeply invested in conspiracy bullshit; are you prepared to be held accountable for their views simply because you're swimming in that stream?

I bear no responsibility for claims made by anyone else, so I once again encourage you to fling your accusations at them, since my position has been consistent throughout.

[TheKentuckian]

144. Who am I riding with that is deeply invested in conspiratorial nonsense?

More like riding with for real myth busters.

[Happy Hoosier]

74. Who is going to distribute aid?

Don't get me wrong, I support getting aid into the Gazan civilians. But who is going to do it? UNRWA has proven to not be a trustworthy broker here. The UN's refusal to accept responsibility for its shoddy managment of that organization is deeply troubling. How long have they been propping up Hamas? There needs to be a complete audit of UNRWA activites in Gaza.

I am, however, 100% convinced Biden and Blinken are working this issue behind the scenes.

[brush]

28. Right...one in this thread just posted prove it that kids are starving.

My God. Talk about having blinders on. What is needed for them to see Netanyahu is a warmonger/war criminal?

It's slapping them in the face.

[BannonsLiver]

32. Or someone will say that Hamas are "freedom fighters just like Mandela."

Or ruminate on the evil imperialistic west, like Putin and Modi do.

[Orrex]

45. Yes, I've seen that ignorant bullshit

I can’t decide if they’re trolling or if they really have no grasp of reality.

[Happy Hoosier]

75. That was fucking shocking. NT

[radius777]

6. Thank you Senator Van Hollen, the base agrees with you.

https://news.yahoo.com/50-biden-voters-israel-committing-155751797.html
50% of voters who voted for Biden in 2020 think that Israel is "committing genocide against Palestinian civilians, according to polling from YouGov and The Economist conducted from January 21-23 that surveyed 1,664 US adult citizens.

Another 20% of Biden voters said that's not the case, while another 30% said they were not sure.

Among all registered voters, 32% said that Israel is committing genocide, while 42% said no and another 26% said they were not sure. 67% of Republicans said Israel is not committing genocide.

To put it differently, only 20% of Dems say 'not genocide' where 67% of Repubs do.

Biden Admin has been working behind the scenes for a ceasefire - not strongly enough in my opinion. Though I still support Biden many other pro-Palestine voters do not. This issue is the flashing red light that the Dem establishment ignores at their peril.

[2naSalit]

10. I agree with you except...

Last edited Tue Feb 13, 2024, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

I think Biden has been working very hard on this, while juggling everything else on the planet and running a presidential election campaign, and just not blabbing it all over kingdom come because that's how such negotiating works.

I am pretty sure that, knowing bibi and his mindset rather well, Biden has been working hard to get even slight acknowledgement in order to have successful talks. Netanyahoo (bibi) is -45 of the ME and has an agenda and that's that. He has backing from hostile nations and, likely, secret info which is being used to blackmail the US, that was sold to him from guess who. Negotiating around the labarynth created by -45 and his fellow dictators will take decades to undo if we can ever accomplish that. Much damage was done and it is far from being remedied. Biden is one of the most skilled negotiators in the country and I am willing to trust his judgement in these freakish times. I voted for the candidate whom I was sure could jump into the driver's seat, take control of the bus and steer us away from an abyss and calm everybody down like a kind dad. He's done that to my satisfaction.

I don't like the way some things get done but the end result is usually the best option available. Most of the grumbling about Biden spins around the country's collective lack of patience, everybody wants everything, every project completed the moment they think of it no matter how complex. Biden has this, it's the other players who want to control our lives that we should direct our concerns toward and not fall over and die with every political attack before we figure out a game plan to confront it.

That's the only part I find different.

[sanatanadharma]

7. Drop the word genocide and it is still mass murder beyond ...

Drop the word genocide and it is still mass murder beyond any moral-rational justification. It is blind revenge anger of a two millennia deep-seated nature.

Totally unbecoming from the "identity" that itself suffered from no-excuse mass-murder.

[Celerity]

11. The Dangerous History Behind Netanyahu's Amalek Rhetoric

His recent biblical reference has long been used by the Israeli far right to justify killing Palestinians.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/

On Saturday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israelis were united in their fight against Hamas, whom he described as an enemy of incomparable cruelty. “They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,” Netanyahu said in Hebrew. He then added: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”

There are more than 23,000 verses in the Old Testament. The ones Netanyahu turned to, as Israeli forces launched their ground invasion in Gaza, are among its most violent—and have a long history of being used by Jews on the far right to justify killing Palestinians.



As others quickly pointed out, God commands King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel. “This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

The Amalek reference is one of many comments by Israeli leaders that serve to help justify a devastating response to the brutal Hamas attack on October 7 that took the lives of more than 1,400 people in Israel. A member of the Knesset has called for a second Nakba, in reference to the expulsion of Palestinians that Israel carried out in its 1948 war with Arab neighbors. A military spokesperson said about Israel’s initial airstrikes that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy.”

snip

[LymphocyteLover]

14. Hamas is attacking Israel and hiding out among civilians

Could Israel be more selective in their bombing? I'm sure they could.

But we just can't ignore the fact that Hamas is bringing these attacks on Gaza, on civilian areas, because that is Hamas' strategy.

[redqueen]

12. And yet one of our biggest fights in Congress is to give Israel more money

Can someone please explain how that makes sense?

[brush]

30. Right? Much of that should go to Palestinian aid and reparations.

None should go to more arms for Israel to continue bombing and obliterating Gaza.

[redqueen]

37. There's aid for Gaza in there too but not $14 billion.

[brush]

39. Let me re-state. Money for IDF arms can be used as bargaining power to make sure...

there is compliance to the Biden/Blinken plan for a month's-long halt to the bombing, unhindered movement into Gaza for aid trucks, and substantive planning and non-stop talks for a two-state solution despite Netanyahu's objections.

Such planning has to be made as he is not the future of Israel, no matter what he thinks. The funds flow with compliance.

Sorry, some may disagree, but after 75 years of the continued cycle of violence, honest brokers need to step in because neither side — the Israeli far-right nor Hamas can see past their need to kill each other — and get the two-state solution done.

And in reality, the US cannot be the honest brokers needed as we are the suppliers of the bombs to Israel. Perhaps the Swiss, France, Japan, Qatar for necessary Muslim representation...anyone previously without dirty hands.

[brush]

83. Good. No way Gaza is just going be flattened...

and left that way.

[maxsolomon]

41. Reparations? The US should pay reparations to Gazans?

Aid, sure. Funding reconstruction, sure.

[brush]

51. Israel out of the money from US funding. What, Gaza is flattened...

and Israel just gets to walk away from that without any consequences?

You want that to be Israel's reputation, to go down in history for that?

[maxsolomon]

56. Not sure I understand your comment.

You said reparations from the US, not reconstruction aid. Reparations mean the US is admitting fault for Israel's military campaign and compensating Gazans. We won't be doing that; we won't even do it internally for Native Americans and Africans Americans.

Israel is already going down in history for "flattening" Gaza. As Hamas is for 10/7. That's how history works.

[brush]

57. The weapons Israel uses are made in the US and supplied by us.

[maxsolomon]

58. Some of them. Israel has its own Arms industry.

Does Iran need to pay Israel reparations for 10/7?

[brush]

59. What are you getting at? Gaza is just about flatten by the IDF...

It's not uncommon after such devastating destruction for assistance aftewards to be rendered, such as the Marshall Plan in Europe after WWll. There was also millions in aid for years to Japan after WWll. Ironically Jewish holocaust survivors and Japanese Internment victims were eventually awarded funds.
I
All of that was essentially reparations, but that word now seems to loaded with negative consequences because some activist Black Americans descendants of the horrific slave trade have called for reparation but are always slammed and denied by white racists.

Jewish and Japanese victims — yes. Black American descendants — no.

Do you not see that Palestinians in Gaza deserve reparations after the devastation there?



–

[maxsolomon]

60. You said the US owes Gazans REPARATIONS.

I don't think that's remotely possible.

I believe the US will fund reconstruction, and has always funded humanitarian aid to Palestinians, as well as funding the PA, but that is different than reparations.

[brush]

61. I didn't really say the US owes Gazans reparations.

Last edited Wed Feb 14, 2024, 08:20 PM - Edit history (1)

I said some of the money the US funds to Israel shoulld be used to help rebuild Gaza.

It's not uncommon after such devastating destruction for assistance afterwards to be rendered, such as the Marshall Plan in Europe after WWll. There was also millions in aid for years to Japan after WWll. Ironically Jewish holocaust survivors and Japanese Internment victims were eventually awarded funds also.

All of that was essentially reparations, but that word now seems to loaded with negative conotations because some activist Black Americans descendants of the horrific slave trade have called for reparation but are always slammed and denied by white racists.

Jewish and Japanese victims — yes. Black American descendants — no.

Do you not see that Palestinians in Gaza deserve reparations after the devastation there?

[mcar]

100. Yes you did

Post 30. Your words.

Right? Much of that should go to Palestinian aid and reparations.

[brush]

101. Perhaps you're misunderstanding my position. US weapons are being used on Gaza...

by corrupt warmonger Netanyahu to flatten Gaza. Out of the billions of funds the US gives in aid to Israel, I favor some of it go to help rebuilt Gaza.

Do you understand?

[mcar]

103. I understand that you are denying

that you said what you said. Proceed.

[brush]

104. Understand pls that my position is some of the funds to Israel should help rebuild Gaza.

Are we clear now? US bombs are being used by that corrupt warmonger Netayahu to flatten Gaza?

[brush]

110. So be it.

[EX500rider]

105. "It's not uncommon after such devastating destruction for assistance afterwards to be rendered"

Actually I'd say it was very uncommon, beside WWII the winner rarely if ever rebuilds the loser, especially if the loser started the war.

[brush]

106. It's not uncommon since it happen in Europe and Japan.

So I take it that you favor leaving Gaza flattened?

[EX500rider]

107. 1,000's of wars in history make 2 examples very uncommon

I think the champions of the Palestinian cause can put their money where their mouth is, Turkey, Eygpt, Jordan, Saudi, Qatar etc

[brush]

108. Be clear, pls. What does "money where their month is" mean?

Do you favor leaving Gaza flattened or not? Don't come with some unclear "money where their mouth is" vagueness.

[EX500rider]

109. How is that unclear, I said which countries can pay for the rebuild

[brush]

111. Thanks for letting us know where you stand.

You did, however, avoid saying whether you stand with that corrupt warmonger Netanyahu.

[TheKentuckian]

146. Consequences? You demand a boon for 10/7 and decades

of smaller such events along with participation in multiple genocidal wars.

The Palestinians can pay reparations for all that evil shit...yeah right. As if.

Fuck all that noise about some consequences.

Whatever is done will almost certainly be a waste, given a state and propped up they will continue to be a living, insatiable protest that is haven for terrorism and have to be be smashed yet again.

[brush]

147. See post 137.

[brush]

81. See post 80.

[JustAnotherGen]

71. Not one cent on *reparations*

That can't be done.

We can't identify the beneficiaries.

Bootstraps.

That was like - 50 years ago.


America has its own reparations to pay.

[brush]

80. OK, call it whatever you want to call it, but the obliteration of Gaza...

Last edited Thu Feb 15, 2024, 08:26 PM - Edit history (4)

is going to be paid for.

I get that the term "reparations" sets some people off since it's what many African-American activists have asked for for Black descendants of people enslaved during centuries of enslavement with dawn-to-dusk, uncompensated labor (stolen labor).

I'd like to note ironically that Jewish survivors and descendants of the Holocaust received financial benefits, as did Japanese survivors of WWll internment (but Black people — NO WAY).

Maybe we should call the rebuilding of Gaza financial benefits instead as there is no way it's not going to be rebuilt...unless of course Netanyahu gets his way and Jewish settlements are built from the "river to the sea" as he recently called for.

[JustAnotherGen]

87. I don't want to pay for it

We gave them a lot of money- and they pissed it away on weapons and airborne practice.

[brush]

88. Gave who money?

[JustAnotherGen]

90. Really?

https://www.state.gov/u-s-support-for-the-palestinian-people/
As we work toward a negotiated two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we are also increasing our assistance to the Palestinian people. Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinian refugees through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance.

The U.S. government plans to provide an additional $75 million in economic assistance to the Palestinian people this year. Additionally, the United States is also providing $45 million for programs to support the security sector including important improvements to the rule of law.


https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90
— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

Also - take a peek at the top 20 donors to UNRWA in each year.
https://www.unrwa.org/how-you-can-help/government-partners/funding-trends/donor-charts

Reparations are off the table. Its a no go.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/03/federal-tax-code-rigged-against-black-americans-book-dorothy-brown-whiteness-wealth/
The Source Material - and I strongly suggest every so-called Liberal Ally of black Americans read it:

The Whiteness Of Wealth: How The Tax System Impoverishes Black Americans—and How We Can Fix It - Dorothy A. Brown

Okay - so you want the US to give Reparations for a conflict we didn't start - to non American citizens?

You must tie it to a 5% tax break across the board for each black American whose parent, grandparent, or the individual was black.on the census from 1930 to 1970.

It's OUR TURN.

[brush]

91. You still don't seem to be able to understand Hamas and innocent, Palestinian non-combatants are not the same thing...

and that there should be humanitarian aid going to the innocent people who have endured spme 25,000 deaths, mostly WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Your response seems to indicated that Gaza should be left flattened.

Really?

[JustAnotherGen]

92. You still don't seem to understand

That America cannot afford it.

Your response seems to Indicate that a foreign country's citizens come before Americans. Especially a group of Americans that has played the Dominant Cultures way for 400+ years - and are always being told "f*do you" instead of "Thank you for building America - but hard working patriotic African Americans can continue to suffer with non potable water, sewage seeping up into their yards, and lead in homes that by design - we deliberately and maliciously shoved you into (red lining) for decades.

Its like our red lined communities are the new Apartheid in America.

[brush]

93. So you're going with leaving Gaza flattened and there will be no consequences?

Do you not get that the US pays Israel billions yearly? Perhaps some of that could go to help rebuild Gaza.

Such empathy for the less fortunate and bombed to smithereens bromw people is coming from you.

[JustAnotherGen]

96. So you're going to blame

One over taxed and under served black American woman in NJ -

Because the Palestinians are incapable of pulling a Denmark Vesey or Harper's Ferry level rebellion against the governing body? Because they can't give back the hostages that their leadership took?

Yeesh! All of a sudden white men start listening to black women. And - when they do - its the same old same old: the lighter brown people in a place thousands of miles away are more important - "so you JAG are a genocider".

Wow! Who knew? I had this kind of power. Cool.

For my next amazing act - I'm going to drop a house on Putin.

[Arazi]

97. An ugly willful denial of reality

These threads are getting super tedious and I’ve avoided this one for days since there’s no common ground and I’m picking my “battles” so to speak.

That said…

I’m beyond frustrated with the refusal to acknowledge that Hamas and Gaza Palestinians have received BILLIONS in aid from the US, Europe, Arab nations and blew every last cent on defense fortifications and weapons.

This demand that they get more despite a 20+ year documented history of what they’re going to do with more aid, really blows my mind. That anyone would demand the US send more aid into that black hole is crazy (of course the pro-Pal gang is also refusing to acknowledge that Biden hasn’t ever stopped sending aid to Gaza regardless)

[JustAnotherGen]

119. Thank you!

No one wants to discuss that. No one wants to acknowledge that.

[brush]

99. I'm a Black man of color who sympathizes with Palestinians, also people of color, who are being blown to bits...

Last edited Sat Feb 17, 2024, 08:02 PM - Edit history (1)

by corrupt Netanyahu's tremendous, war crimes of over-punishment. And I'm wracking my brain, considering what I've known of your posts and past positions, I don't understand why you're not in solidarity with the innocent Palestinians (not Hamas), also people of color.

And mind you, I feel Israel needs to dump that corrupt warmonger Netanyahu, who is the obstacle, as is Hamas, to cease fire talks, hostage release/prisoner exchange,, ending the war and begining of talks to a two state solution and lasting peace.

[brush]

125. My God. You're still not getting that innocent, non-combatant Palestininians...

mostly women and children are not the Hamas terrorists.

[SunSeeker]

124. "call it whatever you want to call it"

No. Words matter. Calling it reparations is anti-US propaganda implying liability and is plain wrong on the facts.

[brush]

126. And what are the facts? How about 25,000 dead, 90% of the housing flattened...

Gazans told to travel south for safety but still bombed to smithereens, the 1.3 million people in the south are starving because food and water is hardly coming in because most aid trucks are restricted by the IDF, and the ones who get thru take their chances at getting bombed. The 300,000 palestinians in the north of Gaza hardly get any aid.

Those are facts you probably don't want to hear, but it's what being done, and it's over-retaliation and it's inhumane.

[SunSeeker]

127. The US did not bomb Gaza, nor kill 25,000 Gazans. Facts. nt

[brush]

128. True, Israel did with US weapons and backing...for 75 years now.

Maybe we should stop the seven decades of funding.

[SunSeeker]

130. No, Hamas sadistically killing 1200 Israeli civilians on Oct. 7 caused this war.

Please provide me the link to where you demanded that Hamas provide the families of those 1200 reparations.

[brush]

137. Your's is always the first fall back response. 25,000 killed in Gaza but you don't

consider that over-retaliation to the 1200 killed on Oct. 7?

Of course Israel should've retaliated, but come on, that amount of over-retaliation is another thing. It's collective and inhumane punishment by warmonger Netanyahu.

Israel needs to kick his corrupt behind to the curb.

He and Hamas are both obstacles to hostage release, talks on a two-state solution and a reasonable length cease fire to allow replenishment of food and water to starving Palestinians. And a welcome respite from the war for both the Gazans and the IDF.

And since you mentioned the Oct. 7 attacks, aren't you curious about the still unexplained, hours-long delay by the IDF to respond to the terrorist attacks, especially since Netanyahu and Likud had been warned for several months that an attack was coming?

[SunSeeker]

138. Corrupt Netanyahu would be gone but for Hamas starting this war.

In the months leading up to Hamas' attack, Israelis' protests against Netanyahu were the biggest protests the country had ever seen. Security forces were resigning in protest of his attempt to eviscerate the courts' ability to hold him accountable. This domestic political turmoil in Israel had played a role in the security failure, due to the resultant short staffing and distraction. Israeli troops were especially below full strength in the south near Gaza because some had been redeployed north to the West Bank to protect Israeli settlers following a surge of violence there. But the biggest failure was that Israel simply did not believe Hamas was about to attack. The attack made no strategic or political sense to Israeli security forces, and they just didn't believe it would happen at that time. These reasons for Israel's security failure have all been laid out by numerous sources. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

Your suggestion that Netanyahu intentionally let Hamas kill 1200 Israelis and take 200 hostages is a pretty cray conspiracy theory.

Think about it.

If Netanyahu knew Hamas was about to attack, why not use it as an opportunity to be the hero and repel the attack? He could still, justifiably, then go to war against Hamas, but without the criticism of the security failure and unrescued hostages. These failures have made his support in Israel collapse even more than it was before. Only 15 percent of Israelis want Netanyahu to stay in his position after the war.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4384932-just-15-percent-of-israelis-would-keep-netanyahu-as-prime-minister-after-war-survey/

Unfortunately, Hamas starting this war is also what is keeping Netanyahu in office. As long as the war continues, Israel is unlikely to be able to hold a vote that would almost certainly see Netanyahu forced from office. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-10/israel-hamas-war-helps-netanyahu-stay-in-power?embedded-checkout=true

[brush]

139. That the Netanyahu admin didn't think it would happen, even though they were warned...

and still took no re-enforcement of the border, bit are still in charge...WTH.

[SunSeeker]

140. There is no easy mechanism to force early elections in Israel.

New elections in Israel are not legally required until late October of 2026. There are 4 potential paths to an early election. None of them are easy.

Path 1: The simplest route to ousting Mr. Netanyahu is for his coalition to fall apart. He rules with 64 seats in the 120-member Knesset. So the defection of only five members would bring down the government, forcing elections within three months. So far, no defections.

Path 2: A second and more complicated path is a vote of “constructive no confidence.” In principle, any member of the Knesset who can get the support of a majority of its members can become prime minister. The point of the mechanism is to pull down one government while installing another. The problem is no one wants to give the job on a platter to a rival politician. And Netanyahu is extremely skilled and experienced at playing rivals against one another and threatening them, sometimes on the basis of carefully kept dossiers, risking political death if they move against him.

Path 3: The opposition quits the Unity Government. Gantz and Eisenkot, both respected former generals, could quit the wartime unity government and try to lead a movement for early elections. But since they each lack a majority, neither could bring down Netanyahu’s government on his own.

Path 4: Civil protest, i.e., a forceful renewal of the anti-Netanyahu demonstrations that went on for nearly nine months before Oct. 7. They would have to be so widespread and continuous that they would rock the government and force new elections. The war has created a form of unity, but it is already cracking over issues like the hostages, how to end the war and what to do about Gaza and the Palestinians when hostilities cease. Yet nothing close to the size of the prior protests has occurred, and even those prior massive protests were obviously not enough to oust Netanyahu.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-americans-elections.html

[Nanjeanne]

15. Keep speaking out Senator. Please and Thank You.

[sarisataka]

18. Are Hamas war criminals?

Interesting to compare-

Gazans to IDF: Hamas steals URNWA food, kills civilians who ask for aid
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218582759

[John Shaft]

19. Terrorists by definition operate outside the rule of law

they are not state actors. A country with a government SHOULD operate within a legal framework.

[sarisataka]

20. Interesting perspective

Terrorist just do what they do and are not accountable

Hamas however is also the defacto government of Gaza though they disavow any responsibility to care for the Gazan people. Hamas claim is the UN is responsible.

This begs the question- Should the UN be using force against Hamas to ensure the provided aid is not stolen by Hamas but gets to the intended recipients?

[John Shaft]

23. Look how well waging war (making terrorists accountable)

against an ideology (terrorist organizations as opposed to an actual country) worked in Afghanistan. We went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan because Saudi and Egyptian terrorists flew planes into the WTC. 20 fucking years of war. It accomplished jack shit.

Hamas isn't a country. It is a terrorist organization. They are non-state based actors. They will not conform to what anyone else wants.

Or just call everything that isn't Israel Hamas and exterminate everyone and raze the place. Which is pretty much the path being taken.

So what are you actually complaining about?

[sarisataka]

26. No complaints, just observations

about dual standard. Israel delays supplies (which I do not support) and they are war criminals. Hamas steals supplies and, well that's just how it is. Like it or not, Hamas is the government of Gaza. They are a recognized Palestinian party, provide social services, have ministries and media services, foreign relations and obviously a military branch. They are more than "just terrorists"

However, since terrorists do not conform to any laws and ideology cannot be eliminated, is the occasional murder of a thousand or so Jews simply the price Israel must endure?

[LymphocyteLover]

49. yes, that is the maddening conundrum of this situation

[radius777]

54. They know what they're doing. It's the same neocon gaslighting

about some fuzzy terrorist group doing something so we need to kill/take/invade something somewhere.

20 fucking years of war. It accomplished jack shit.

Oh, it accomplished alot for the RW neocon zionists: killed lots of brown people, got to try out new weapons and use these countries as a testing ground, filled the pockets of the MIC, extended western reach and presence in an oil-rich region.

[TheKentuckian]

35. The terrorists are also the governing body of Gaza

Them being terrorists is not some magical pass to rape, murder, and mutilate at will and the attacked must just suck it...for the children.

That is crazy talk and such a threat must be incapacitated and broken.

[GuppyGal]

73. I'm sure if all these folks had HAMAS living in the next state over they'd be singing a different tune. nt

[TheKentuckian]

86. Without question. They wouldn't even need to be proximate

or even the actual perpetrators as history has proven.

[Happy Hoosier]

76. Hamas is not a state actor because Gaza isn't a state, but....

They ARE the government of Gaza. That complicates matters, IMO.

[brush]

31. Both Hamas and Netanyahu are war criminals IMO.

[sarisataka]

33. It is hard for some to say that

[brush]

34. IMO it's become more and more obvious since the many hours-long IDF delay...

in responding to the Hamas attack on Oct. 7.

So many are still not curious about that still-enexplained delay that gave Hamas so much time to kill and take hostages.

Who knows? Was it a LIHOP tactic to justify the continued obliteration of Gaza? The Netanyahu/Likud admin had been warned several months before that something big was being planned by Hamas.

[sarisataka]

36. Knowing a bit how governments and military works

I believe it was command paralysis.

Like 9 11 warnings were overlooked and the comprehensive plan was inconceivable due to prior assumptions. When the attack happened it could not be believed by those in charge.

Instead of taking immediate action they delayed to gather information then to confirm the information. Plans then needed to be made, authorized, corrected, orders issued...

There should have been the outline of a plan in place to get troops moving. Orders can be given on the fly to direct units where needed. The IDF is good enough to operate this way but leadership failed them.

[brush]

40. Both those delays you mentioned, 9/11 and Oct. 7, were by right wing admins.

Is that somehow symptomatic of winger admins — their we've-got-this-smugness, their being so sure of themselves that they failed to re-enforce border security for early warnings?

Re-enforcing seems like something one would do automatically when warnings of something big is coming come in.

[LymphocyteLover]

65. or they wanted the attacks to happen

or worse

[brush]

68. Yep, makes you wonder if it's a let it happen on purpose operation.

Last edited Thu Feb 15, 2024, 04:43 AM - Edit history (1)

[electric_blue68]

115. tried to google this up but too complicated to check bc of using a phone and opening multiple screens - somethin like...

a meeting that then President W Bush attended in ? Europe was held in some waaay extra, extra facility bc there were rumours of a purported missle attack to strike the gathering.

So W & Cheney knew in a sense of missle attacks (and the planes hitting The Towers acted like missles). Plus the ?Aug 6th memo "determined to strike".

[electric_blue68]

116. See my #115 post

[electric_blue68]

114. It is troubling, questionable.

[electric_blue68]

113. I probably agree w you...

To hell w Hamas & Hezbollah and their slaughter of Jewish people.

To hell with Netanyahu's overkill strategy, and RW Likud.
(and allowing the illegal settlements in the West Bank)

I totally believe in Israel's right to exist but not the way Bibi is acting.
And I've never forgotten how Netanyahu was part of the group of RW Israelis who helped foster the atmosphere that led to Izak Rabin's assassination. So screw him!

[brush]

117. I didn't know that about the Rabin assassination. Thanks for that info.

[electric_blue68]

120. A somber yw

Last edited Sun Feb 18, 2024, 01:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Went double check and I'd forgotten
Netanyahu was the Leader of the Likud Party at the time, as well.

[brush]

121. So he's always been to the extreme right.

[electric_blue68]

122. As far as I can tell. I don't know his most early official political history.

[leftstreet]

21. DURec

[marble falls]

27. This is war crime. This is group punishment. This is murder.

[Autumn]

43. Thank you for speaking out with the truth. As for anyone asking why he voted for the bill

it contained funding for the Ukraine. Now we wait and see if our government will became a party to Netanyahu's war crime.

[GoodRaisin]

55. Kick

[Donkees]

70. Rafah urgently needs stabilisation centre for children with 'severe malnutrition': UN

The UN humanitarian agency OHCA says that there is now “an urgent need to establish a stabilisation centre in Rafah for treating children suffering from severe malnutrition” as the city experiences “rising food insecurity” and “limitations on the entry of aid”.

On Wednesday, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan confirmed the Israeli government is still blocking flour – a vital staple food for Palestinians – from entering the Gaza Strip.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/15/israels-war-on-gaza-live-four-dead-as-israel-hits-city-in-lebanons-south

[David__77]

72. Nice words, bad vote.

[Mountainguy]

118. Not interested in giving food to Hamas.

Which is where it goes. That's why they are shooting kids who try to get food off the trucks in Gaza.

[elocs]

123. Agreed. This is a war crime and Israel has lost the high ground.

How many innocent Gaza Palestinians, women and children, are justified being killed by Israel to get a single Hamas terrorist? Hundreds? Thousands?
Plus, Netanyahu should be on trial in Israel for knowing about the terrorist attack a year before it happened and yet failed to protect the Israelis in harm's way. He is stretching this carnage out just to maintain his own power in Israel. But why should the Gaza Palestinians pay the price for this?

[TheKentuckian]

134. There are tens of thousands of Hamas operatives

Not one, that is ridiculous.

[elocs]

141. No, it's knowing killing innocent civilians, women & children that's ridiculous and a war crime.

So how many innocent Gaza Palestinian civilians doe Israel justify killing to get each Hamas operative?

[TheKentuckian]

142. Zero if possible but as many as it takes to eliminate the threat.

AKA war.